Winchester PDX1 giving HST a run for its money [Archive] - Glock Talk

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OGlockYes
02-14-2009, 18:14
i went to the gunshow today and say one of these bullets expanded and all i can say is WOW. the edges were almost razor sharp. According to what ive read its what the FBI uses now for 2009. Anyone hear anything about this round?

http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Winchester+PDX1

patscrazy
02-14-2009, 18:26
Saw a couple of boxes of the 180gr .40 at a gun shop in my area today as well. Box of 20 rounds for 19.95. Not bad. Looked like a SXT.

_The_Shadow
02-14-2009, 19:32
Well I didn't see it in 10mm stuffings, maybe they will produce the bullets for handloaders (NOT!) While the concept is good they will need to step up the production to catch up to Speer Gold Dots.

MURRAY
02-15-2009, 07:21
I bet its the little box of Bonded Ranger loads...........but thats just a guess

OGlockYes
02-15-2009, 07:57
its a small box of 20. ive seen the hst expanded and its impressive but the winchester pdx1 edges were scary sharp. i had to handle it with care while examining it.

IndyGunFreak
02-15-2009, 11:24
Saw a couple of boxes of the 180gr .40 at a gun shop in my area today as well. Box of 20 rounds for 19.95. Not bad. Looked like a SXT.

I thought it looked like an SXT also,..

IGF

carbofan21
02-15-2009, 11:44
so you're saying it's the same exact thing as the SXT?

hmmmm

IndyGunFreak
02-15-2009, 12:09
so you're saying it's the same exact thing as the SXT?

hmmmm

I don't know who you're referring to, but no, I'm not saying that. I just thought it looked like an SXT.

IGF

hotpig
02-15-2009, 12:27
More accurate comparison would be DPX will be competing with the GD.

Winchester is offering a 5% rebate with a 10000.00 order. I can not decide if I want to tie up inventory money and room for this product yet.

Dreamaster
02-15-2009, 15:13
More accurate comparison would be DPX will be competing with the GD.

Winchester is offering a 5% rebate with a 10000.00 order. I can not decide if I want to tie up inventory money and room for this product yet.

Oh come on! Just tout it as the "HST Killer" on your website and watch all 10,000 dollars worth be gone in a day.

kensteele
02-15-2009, 15:53
^ha, in less than a day. i'll buy some of it.

edit: at the right price of course. ;)

bobdat
02-15-2009, 16:08
delete

degoodman
02-15-2009, 19:10
First, never trust anything you hear at a gun show.
Second, this is nothing but a cheaper-to-manufacture version of Ranger Talon for short-sighted civilians.
Third, it's nothing like HST as far as expansion, bonded or not.

Here's what I mean:

First, all Winchester 180 grain 40's are fairly good performers. They make good stuff overall. I don't know of a BAD 40 factory load except for the 155 grain loads and the old SilverTips.

Second, when you really learn about ammo, you'll know that bonded is not as desirable as a good, jacketed hollow point round, like HST's or Ranger Talons, including SXT's. Bonded ammo is cheaper to make but offers a higher profit for manufacturers and it has slightly better performance when fired through HARD barricades like plywood and glass. More traditional JHP's do far better when fired into softer media like flesh!

Third, no bonded round has been shown to expand aggressively in flesh compared to traditional JHP's. So, why pay more for inferior performance unless you want to offensively shoot through barricades as a rule?

Gimme a good old HST, Ranger Talon or Gold Dot JHP anyday. You don't throw away 50 years of proven performance just because a factory hypes a cheaper process bullet in a more profitable presentation do you?
:dunno:

You just making this stuff up as you go?

Bonded ammo is more expensive to manufacture, not less.

Bonded vs "traditional JHP's" borders on a straw man argument. All modern ammunition is designed to perform within a very specific and relatively narrow performance window, defined by the FBI/DOJ ballistics testing protocols.

Another small point is that in real shoots, nothing expands as well as it does through bare gelatin. Bonded, unbonded, otherwise. the pretty pictures of perfectly expanded HP's aren't usually what the surgeons dig out of someones' chest. People wear clothes, they have bones in front of all those structures we're trying to hit in a defensive shoot. Maybe we're not trying to shoot into a car, but out of one. etc.

So bonded vs unbonded is a choice, its not an absolute. Yes, if you're in LE, where the odds of engaging a subject inside a car, or making a shot through intermediate cover to engage a shielded BG are much higher than for those not in that profession, a bonded bullet makes sense under those circumstances. For a civilian, I think its still a choice. Bonded bullets don't expand as aggressively, which means they stand a better chance of surviving an encounter with bone intact, for example. If you're comparing unobstructed frontal shots, then yea, maybe unbonded has an advantage, but that's getting into awfully narrow circumstances, probably just as narrow as focusing solely on a car shoot when picking ammo.

Oh, and about HST, its value line ammo for cops. ATK considers Federal Tactical Bonded and Speer Gold Dot the current top of the line ammo for LE use. Yea, it expands wickidly in gel. Gel is putting a bullet's best forward. Lets see how it does after 4 or 5 years of LE shoot data comes in. That's probably how long its going to take to get a meaningful number of shoots together to draw serious conclusions from.

and by the way, the gold dot is a bonded bullet, and all three are less than 20 year old designs, The Gold Dot and the Uni-cor process being patented in 1990, the Winchester ranger family in 1995, and Federal patenting what looks like the underlying technology of the HST in 2002.

With the current crop of defnesive ammo on the market, Which I'd consider to be the current ranger series, Gold Dot, HST, Tactical bonded, Bonded Golden Sabre, Hornady TAP or FTX, and the Barnes XPB, which corbon loads as the DPX, arguing the superiority of one or the other over its peers is like discussing rank amongst buck privates. Those are fully capable of doing the job on a BG if you do yours. How pretty or how wide the bullet is when it gets yanked out of a block of jello does not tell the story, and more is not automatically better. HST supplies are tight, and look to get tighter if you buy the rumors. Ranger has always been relatively scarce, obtainable, but not easily, or usually locally. GD's are a little more loose, both in the 50 round boxes we like, and in the 20 rounders that are out there all day long. If you can't buy brand F, then Brands S, W, H, R or C will do you just as well in all likelyhood.

DRT
02-15-2009, 19:38
DocGKR indicated that the HST is performing as good as Ranger T in the real world police engagements. Between his positive feedback and it's outstanding performance in ballistics testing across the spectrum, HST appears to be a good choice.

Im also liking the barnes xpb bullets more and more.

If GD is ATK's premium line, then why isnt it restricted like HST? If it's premium then it must be better? Hmmm.

bobdat
02-15-2009, 19:52
delete

carbofan21
02-15-2009, 20:25
:goodpost:You just making this stuff up as you go?

Bonded ammo is more expensive to manufacture, not less.

Bonded vs "traditional JHP's" borders on a straw man argument. All modern ammunition is designed to perform within a very specific and relatively narrow performance window, defined by the FBI/DOJ ballistics testing protocols.

Another small point is that in real shoots, nothing expands as well as it does through bare gelatin. Bonded, unbonded, otherwise. the pretty pictures of perfectly expanded HP's aren't usually what the surgeons dig out of someones' chest. People wear clothes, they have bones in front of all those structures we're trying to hit in a defensive shoot. Maybe we're not trying to shoot into a car, but out of one. etc.

So bonded vs unbonded is a choice, its not an absolute. Yes, if you're in LE, where the odds of engaging a subject inside a car, or making a shot through intermediate cover to engage a shielded BG are much higher than for those not in that profession, a bonded bullet makes sense under those circumstances. For a civilian, I think its still a choice. Bonded bullets don't expand as aggressively, which means they stand a better chance of surviving an encounter with bone intact, for example. If you're comparing unobstructed frontal shots, then yea, maybe unbonded has an advantage, but that's getting into awfully narrow circumstances, probably just as narrow as focusing solely on a car shoot when picking ammo.

Oh, and about HST, its value line ammo for cops. ATK considers Federal Tactical Bonded and Speer Gold Dot the current top of the line ammo for LE use. Yea, it expands wickidly in gel. Gel is putting a bullet's best forward. Lets see how it does after 4 or 5 years of LE shoot data comes in. That's probably how long its going to take to get a meaningful number of shoots together to draw serious conclusions from.

and by the way, the gold dot is a bonded bullet, and all three are less than 20 year old designs, The Gold Dot and the Uni-cor process being patented in 1990, the Winchester ranger family in 1995, and Federal patenting what looks like the underlying technology of the HST in 2002.

With the current crop of defnesive ammo on the market, Which I'd consider to be the current ranger series, Gold Dot, HST, Tactical bonded, Bonded Golden Sabre, Hornady TAP or FTX, and the Barnes XPB, which corbon loads as the DPX, arguing the superiority of one or the other over its peers is like discussing rank amongst buck privates. Those are fully capable of doing the job on a BG if you do yours. How pretty or how wide the bullet is when it gets yanked out of a block of jello does not tell the story, and more is not automatically better. HST supplies are tight, and look to get tighter if you buy the rumors. Ranger has always been relatively scarce, obtainable, but not easily, or usually locally. GD's are a little more loose, both in the 50 round boxes we like, and in the 20 rounders that are out there all day long. If you can't buy brand F, then Brands S, W, H, R or C will do you just as well in all likelyhood.

pimuk
02-16-2009, 05:15
de "good" man is always "good."

OGlockYes
02-16-2009, 07:16
does anyone know anything about the winchester pdx1 round?

bobdat
02-16-2009, 07:19
delete

OGlockYes
02-16-2009, 10:21
Best question in this thread! :rofl:

Nobody knows more than here:
http://www.winchester.com/PRODUCTS/newitems/whatsnewcontent.aspx?productid=70


:rofl::rofl:

Natty
02-16-2009, 16:51
"Performance was everything you'd expect of a load the FBI is receiving as I write this: Full expansion, with the average of the first five round being .615-inch, and full FBI penetration, averaging 15 inches of gelatin."

.615" full expansion from a .40 into gel is not very impressive.

NG VI
02-16-2009, 18:44
I agree

.615" full expansion from a .40 into gel is not very impressive.


.80" is good news from a .40. With enough penetration that's typical .45 ACP expansion out of the smaller cartridge. Good deal to me.

betyourlife
02-16-2009, 21:01
DocGKR indicated that the HST is performing as good as Ranger T in the real world police engagements. Between his positive feedback and it's outstanding performance in ballistics testing across the spectrum, HST appears to be a good choice.

Im also liking the barnes xpb bullets more and more.

If GD is ATK's premium line, then why isnt it restricted like HST? If it's premium then it must be better? Hmmm.

Who is DocGKR? Is that Doctor Gary Roberts? What is his middle name?

NG VI
02-17-2009, 06:39
Kenneth probably

MURRAY
02-17-2009, 07:31
I got the natchez email flyer today its in there


Winchester PDX1 Bonded 40 S&W 180 grain 20/Box
Reg $21.99
Sale $18.49
Buy Now!







Winchester Bonded 45 ACP 230 grain JHP 20/box

Natty
02-17-2009, 11:24
I find it interesting that this round costs twice as much as the Federal HST round but does not perform as good.

IndyGunFreak
02-17-2009, 12:23
I find it interesting that this round costs twice as much as the Federal HST round but does not perform as good.

Your proof of that is?...

IGF

Natty
02-17-2009, 14:20
Your proof of that is?...

IGF

Like I mentioned earlier, the link in the first post in this thread states the .40 cal round gets .615" of full expansion in gel tests.

HST expands much better than that. At half the price listed.

Actually several companies rounds expand better than that.

SIGShooter
02-17-2009, 15:08
Maybe the way they designed it is just that...

Deep penetration with minimal expansion.

Kind of like the XTP from Hornady.

IMHO shot placement and penetration far out weigh what a bullet will expand too. If it even expands.

OGlockYes
02-17-2009, 15:21
Maybe the way they designed it is just that...

Deep penetration with minimal expansion.

Kind of like the XTP from Hornady.

IMHO shot placement and penetration far out weigh what a bullet will expand too. If it even expands.


nicely said sir. i currently carry federal hst. ive seen how it looks expanded and what the edges feel like and i can tell you the edges are no where close in sharpness to the winchester pdx1. the winchester pdx1 round had razor sharp edges. when the guy put the expanded round in my hand i had to carefully examine it because i was afraid to cut myself. never felt that way with the hst. never.

patscrazy
02-17-2009, 15:40
.615" is not bad for a .40. It's still over 1.5x the original diameter, which is what Federal's pitch has always been for the tried and true Federal Tact bonded. This is my duty round and the the duty round for hundreds of police agencies across the country. This new winchester round seems to produce similar results, deeper penetration, while still expanding to 1.5x the original diameter.

Looking at the Aurora, CO wound ballistic shop from the ATK, from a Glock 22, the 180 HST in bare gel over expanded to .985"! Impressive sure, but it only penetrated 10.75" We all know we want at least 12". Sure most bad guys have clothes on. I usually never care what a round does in bare gel, but just for comparisons sake. I would take consistent 1.5x expansion and 15" over .985 and 10" anyday. I would still like to see some testing against heavy clothing before I jump on the bandwagon.

I am not saying HST is not a great round, I have several boxes, but we all know how Federal is making it harder and harder for the public to obtain. HST's price is only going to up. In my state, you can not go into a store and buy HST. You can however buy this stuff. So if its easily available and it works across various mediums, then I'd buy it for off duty use.

NG VI
02-17-2009, 16:02
OGlockyes, are you sure it wasn't Ranger-T they showed you? I'm curious because in all the pictures I have ever seen, the PDX1 seems to have the same profile as the Gold Dot, that is, very rounded at the edges. The Ranger-T is the one with sharp points that protrude outward when expanded. And the Ranger-T Enhanced is supposed to keep the talons pointed more outwards, it is replacing the last generation of Ranger-T right now.

DRT
02-17-2009, 16:55
More testing from DOCGKR including pictures....this time the new Ranger Bonded (see no Talons ... a 'gold dot' in the middle too, hmmmm)

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26461

Looks like another example of bonded rounds being unreliable expanders through heavy clothing (the .40 Ranger Bonded in this case). Half expanded, half didn't at all. Even if it's just a bad lot (quality issue) and not just a design flaw, how does a person know whether or not their particular lot will work or not?....not a confidence builder.

Make mine HST or the 'regular' Ranger T-series.

happyguy
02-17-2009, 18:43
Am I the only one that sees barriers all around me when I'm out and about?

Auto glass and body panels aren't the only thing you may have to shoot through.

Just look around the next time you are in the local stop and rob and see what I mean. Bonded JHP has real value even to civilians and the additional penetration afforded by slightly reduced expansion is no doubt a benefit in many cases.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Natty
02-17-2009, 18:48
Am I the only one that sees barriers all around me when I'm out and about?

Auto glass and body panels aren't the only thing you may have to shoot through.

Just look around the next time you are in the local stop and rob and see what I mean. Bonded JHP has real value even to civilians and the additional penetration afforded by slightly reduced expansion is no doubt a benefit in many cases.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

If a civilian has to shoot through a barrier to defend himself, is he legally defending himself?

There is a long list of police officers who have been fired and or sued for shooting into cars.

happyguy
02-17-2009, 18:50
If a civilian has to shoot through a barrier to defend himself, is he legally defending himself?

There is a long list of police officers who have been fired and or sued for shooting into cars.

Why would shooting an attacker through a barrier be any different that shooting one in the open?:dunno:

Edited to add: The three prerequisites for the use of deadly force are intent, opportunity, and capability. Whether a barrier is involved or not is irrelevant.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Natty
02-17-2009, 18:53
So many police forces have lost million dollar lawsuits, that many police forces have now made it against their policy to shoot into cars.

unit1069
02-17-2009, 18:54
Although lots of people disparage backyard wetpack tests I think they support or question ammo makers' "scientific" tests. One thing I've noticed is that whether manufacturer or wetpack the HST shows remarkable uniformity in expansion. It would be nice to see some of the better wetpack testers run some of the newer ammo through their setups to see if they match what the manufacturers produce. Nobody thinks the ammo makers aren't showing us their best results, do you?

happyguy
02-17-2009, 18:57
So many police forces have lost million dollar lawsuits, that many police forces have now made it against their policy to shoot into cars.

Which police forces are those?

Certainly none in Indiana that I am aware of. What do the cops in those cities do when someone in a car is shooting at them? Run away?

Regards,
Happyguy :)

unit1069
02-17-2009, 19:05
So many police forces have lost million dollar lawsuits, that many police forces have now made it against their policy to shoot into cars.

Maybe so, but I have to somewhat agree with HappyGuy on this one.

Long story made short: I ended up buying a G-32 after a bad night in a remote cabin. Study led me to pick a caliber that shoots well through barriers because there very well could be times when it's foolhardy to begin defending yourself after some crazed person or posse comes crashing through your door.

Lots of people believe a defender can't shoot unless/until a maniac or criminal busts through. That's not true.

As for shooting through windshields or into cars, there's always the possibility a defender may have to shoot out of a car, through the same glass barriers. Like in a carjacking, for example.

Natty
02-17-2009, 19:07
Which police forces are those?

Certainly none in Indiana that I am aware of. What do the cops in those cities do when someone in a car is shooting at them? Run away?

Regards,
Happyguy :)

I asked the same question on cop talk a while back, many officers reported that their force has banned shooting into cars unless the officer felt that his life was in imminent danger. Even when the officer testified that was the case, they still were fired and or sued in several cases.

DRT
02-17-2009, 19:09
The intermediate barrier performance delta between premium non-bonded and bonded isn't all that large with heavy-for-the-caliber pistol ammo. The HST doesn't shed it's jacket through plywood, drywall, clothing, sheet steel, and most of the time, laminated glass. If it goes through laminated windshield glass and does happen to lose it's jacket, it still performs decently if you choose a heavy-for-the-caliber version (a .40 180gr bullet that expands to a ~.50 caliber blob of lead with sharp edges that penetrates ~12" will still do a number on you, with or without a jacket). The HST will work through most any barrier you can throw at it AND it will reliably expand after heavy clothing. The last time I checked, most bad guys are wearing clothing.

Now, if you want a barrier round for a rifle, go bonded and dont look back.

Natty
02-17-2009, 19:27
Does anyone think that a Federal bureaucracy like the FBI would save money by taking the cheapest bid, instead of the best, on something like ammo?

happyguy
02-17-2009, 19:38
I asked the same question on cop talk a while back, many officers reported that their force has banned shooting into cars unless the officer felt that his life was in imminent danger. Even when the officer testified that was the case, they still were fired and or sued in several cases.

I guess we have a different view of things in Indiana.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

bobdat
02-17-2009, 20:11
delete

hotpig
02-18-2009, 23:16
Does anyone think that a Federal bureaucracy like the FBI would save money by taking the cheapest bid, instead of the best, on something like ammo?If they took the cheapest they would have stayed with GD instead of Ranger Bonded.

LEAD
02-24-2010, 13:52
OGlockyes, are you sure it wasn't Ranger-T they showed you? I'm curious because in all the pictures I have ever seen, the PDX1 seems to have the same profile as the Gold Dot, that is, very rounded at the edges. The Ranger-T is the one with sharp points that protrude outward when expanded. And the Ranger-T Enhanced is supposed to keep the talons pointed more outwards, it is replacing the last generation of Ranger-T right now.

I believe you're refferring to the Bonded rangers which do open similar to GDs, the PDX1s are a little more rounded than the Ranger Ts is I'm not mistaken

glocksterr
02-24-2010, 14:23
:rofl:

glocksterr
02-24-2010, 15:10
OGlockyes, are you sure it wasn't Ranger-T they showed you? I'm curious because in all the pictures I have ever seen, the PDX1 seems to have the same profile as the Gold Dot, that is, very rounded at the edges.


hee,hee,

donty ever trust somebody @ a gun show. you dont think he would try to pass a T round off as a bonded to sell more boollets do you?

:cool:






More testing from DOCGKR including pictures....this time the new Ranger Bonded (see no Talons ... a 'gold dot' in the middle too, hmmmm)

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26461

Looks like another example of bonded rounds being unreliable expanders through heavy clothing (the .40 Ranger Bonded in this case). Half expanded, half didn't at all. Even if it's just a bad lot (quality issue) and not just a design flaw, how does a person know whether or not their particular lot will work or not?....not a confidence builder.

Make mine HST or the 'regular' Ranger T-series.


so true and considering the PDX1 round is one and the same but 2 times the price.



Am I the only one that sees barriers all around me when I'm out and about?

Auto glass and body panels aren't the only thing you may have to shoot through.

Just look around the next time you are in the local stop and rob and see what I mean. Bonded JHP has real value even to civilians and the additional penetration afforded by slightly reduced expansion is no doubt a benefit in many cases.

Regards,
Happyguy :)


and the HST does well with barriers, the best of any non bonded round excluding the barnes XPB.





The HST will work through most any barrier you can throw at it AND it will reliably expand after heavy clothing. The last time I checked, most bad guys are wearing clothing.




and these are some of the reasons it stands above most others. not because of a pretty jello box.





Another small point is that in real shoots, nothing expands as well as it does through bare gelatin. Bonded, unbonded, otherwise. the pretty pictures of perfectly expanded HP's aren't usually what the surgeons dig out of someones' chest. People wear clothes, they have bones in front of all those structures we're trying to hit in a defensive shoot. Maybe we're not trying to shoot into a car, but out of one. etc.


Oh, and about HST, its value line ammo for cops. ATK considers Federal Tactical Bonded and Speer Gold Dot the current top of the line ammo for LE use. Yea, it expands wickidly in gel. Gel is putting a bullet's best forward. Lets see how it does after 4 or 5 years of LE shoot data comes in. That's probably how long its going to take to get a meaningful number of shoots together to draw serious conclusions from.



there is plenty of data out for the HST. by all account people are amazed @ the effectiveness and that it opens to a pretty flower.


:supergrin:


contray, to popular opinion a bigger hole does matter when it comes to things other than .45ACP FMJ.

striker6126
02-25-2010, 11:05
I can not bring myself to pay $1.00 + per round for any ammo when the 50 rnd boxes of good ammo can still be found for the same price. Just my opinion.

hotpig
02-25-2010, 11:07
Does anyone think that a Federal bureaucracy like the FBI would save money by taking the cheapest bid, instead of the best, on something like ammo?For some reason the DOJ chose performance over the low bid GD in 9 and 40 this time.

Dalton Wayne
02-25-2010, 11:11
does anyone know anything about the winchester pdx1 round?
I carry it in my 38 special +P load out, It's a good bullet from everything I have read.
Regards
DW

fastbolt
02-25-2010, 12:04
If some of the "definitive opinions" offered as facts regarding the 'superiority' of one bullet design (or caliber, brand of firearm, etc) were actually facts, there wouldn't be so many different types still around - (and being either revised or newly developed and introduced).

You do notice how even the very large LE/Gov agencies often disagree among themselves on what exactly they desire in the way of specifications defining 'performance', right?

At some level it's still just ammunition folks ...

Lots of other things to continually consider when it comes to the lawful, knowledgeable, practical and effective application of it in actual situations, I'd think ...

CanyonMan
02-25-2010, 13:00
Am I the only one that sees barriers all around me when I'm out and about?

Auto glass and body panels aren't the only thing you may have to shoot through.

Just look around the next time you are in the local stop and rob and see what I mean. Bonded JHP has real value even to civilians and the additional penetration afforded by slightly reduced expansion is no doubt a benefit in many cases.

Regards,
Happyguy :)



No your not the only one amigo.. I been saying this on here for ever and a day, but no one is havin any. I would not run an HST in any of my guns for anything. This round is hyped up way put of proportion. There is a very poor penetration depth with HST. Why folks do not want penetration is beyond me to undertand. Right on about the world filled with barriers. You never know how it will happen or where. Most likely 'not' in an open wheat field. ;)


Stay safe.



CanyonMan

CanyonMan
02-25-2010, 13:03
Which police forces are those?

Certainly none in Indiana that I am aware of. What do the cops in those cities do when someone in a car is shooting at them? Run away?

Regards,
Happyguy :)



:rofl:




CM

glocksterr
02-25-2010, 13:46
I would not run an HST in any of my guns for anything. This round is hyped up way put of proportion. There is a very poor penetration depth with HST.


Stay safe.



CanyonMan




:supergrin:

CM, good to see you got some time away from the ranch and on the computer.

my reaserch and testing does not indicate that to be the case.

do you have any examples?

CanyonMan
02-25-2010, 14:29
:supergrin:

CM, good to see you got some time away from the ranch and on the computer.
my reaserch and testing does not indicate that to be the case.

do you have any examples?



Thanks. I been havin a lot of that lately, way to much in fact from a screwed up back, to having to do PC business. Now I am waiting on a guy, so I have time in house for today for business and R&R till he shows up. ;)

I knew that someone would ask that after I opened my mouth. HA.
All I got for ya is this. I have talked with folks in the industry, and I also have seen even the dreaded water jug/filled with paper test, (not a good example), but it (hst) even was lousy in those test. And It is a obvious thing from what reports from Federal and others that have tested this round and keep getting lousy pen. (in jello). Plus one look at the serrations on the bullet and one can clearly see for himself that this is designed to be a very rapid expander. Again. That is rather lame I admit. In a way. In a way not. But there is no way this round is going to out penetrate a bonded bullet like GD or GS, or even the XTP's in the same weigh class. Folks are all wound up on extreme expansion, and neglect the penetration, "because," they have been led to believe the jello and water jug test. They think their bullet will go through a jacket a shirt or two, and through an arm perhaps and "then" still get to the torso and still get to the vitals. Ain't going to happen with the HST. The other reason is they are afraid of OP. The other reason is, folks are like sheep and tend to follow the crowd....

If ALL i went by was the almost Bullet length serrations coupled with the gapping hole of this JHP, it is a dead give awy rith there alone this is not going to penetrate through an arm and then get to the vitals in the target.

Same old thing really. It is just common understanding and knowledge that a bullet designed for rapid expansion is not going to do in a human what it does (and poorly at that) in water jugs and jello. Plus again, the almost bullet length serrations are a BIG give away that this is not a bullet that will penetrate well through real word clothes and fleah and muscle and bones, and hollow and solid organs and still get to the vitals. Much less go through a barrier and "still get to the vitals."

Sorry. I do not buy into it. If I come across a box of this stuff some where, I will try this summer to test it out with some other things we want to test in a 25 gallon barrel with cut to fit beef rib cage in there with loads of guts behind that and filled with water, and drapped over the front with a couple shirts and a jacket. NO promises. I'll try. Ordinarily I am a busy guy, and even have to drive back and forth from here to Dallas all the time to help out our Mom. We will see what happens.

This is the kinda stuff I post when I am in the house and bored man. I don't like being in any more than I got to, but at times it is good to let others out side do it for me. ;)



Good shooting



CanyonMan

glocksterr
02-25-2010, 14:35
Thanks. I been havin a lot of that lately, way to much in fact from a screwed up back, to having to do PC business. Now I am waiting on a guy, so I have time in house for today for business and R&R till he shows up. ;)

I knew that someone would ask that after I opened my mouth. HA.
All I got for ya is this. I have talked with folks in the industry, and I also have seen even the dreaded water jug/filled with paper test, (not a good example), but it (hst) even was lousy in those test. And It is a obvious thing from what reports from Federal and others that have tested this round and keep getting lousy pen. (in jello). Plus one look at the serrations on the bullet and one can clearly see for himself that this is designed to be a very rapid expander. Again. That is rather lame I admit. In a way. In a way not. But there is no way this round is going to out penetrate a bonded bullet like GD or GS, or even the XTP's in the same weigh class. Folks are all wound up on extreme expansion, and neglect the penetration, "because," they have been led to believe the jello and water jug test. They think their bullet will go through a jacket a shirt or two, and through an arm perhaps and "then" still get to the torso and still get to the vitals. Ain't going to happen with the HST. The other reason is they are afraid of OP. The other reason is, folks are like sheep and tend to follow the crowd....

If ALL i went by was the almost Bullet length serrations coupled with the gapping hole of this JHP, it is a dead give awy rith there alone this is not going to penetrate through an arm and then get to the vitals in the target.

Same old thing really. It is just common understanding and knowledge that a bullet designed for rapid expansion is not going to do in a human what it does (and poorly at that) in water jugs and jello. Plus again, the almost bullet length serrations are a BIG give away that this is not a bullet that will penetrate well through real word clothes and fleah and muscle and bones, and hollow and solid organs and still get to the vitals. Much less go through a barrier and "still get to the vitals."

Sorry. I do not buy into it. If I come across a box of this stuff some where, I will try this summer to test it out with some other things we want to test in a 25 gallon barrel with cut to fit beef rib cage in there with loads of guts behind that and filled with water, and drapped over the front with a couple shirts and a jacket. NO promises. I'll try.

Good shooting



CanyonMan







maybe i need to send you a boxz fro you to try in your four-tay!

CanyonMan
02-25-2010, 14:53
maybe i need to send you a boxz fro you to try in your four-tay!


Let's wait till summer and see if I can properly test them. If so, I'll take ya up on that Hoss! ;)


Thanks !
Stay safe



CanyonMan

cadillacguns
02-26-2010, 10:24
Both degoodman and bobdat have excellent opinions and things to think about.......I recently replaced years of Black Talons for PDX-1's in my G-27 EDC, I hope I never have to shoot anybody with either, but 165 Gr PDX is what I am currently betting my life on, as most gunfights are 3-4 rounds at 3-4 feet, I sure aint planning any vehicle or barricade scenarios, you never know though, and I think PDX (or HST or GD) could handle most any Central Indiana situations I find myself in. Maybe not...............then you can take it from my cold dead hands!

Ticman
02-26-2010, 11:56
So does this mean the LE.ATK test are all BS?

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

TNXB21
02-26-2010, 12:14
Some light reading with a fact or two :whistling:


http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

http://www.winchester.com/library/news/Pages/News-Bonded-PDX1.aspx

http://www.winchester.com/Products/New-Products/Pages/New-Product-Bonded-PDX1.aspx

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/Ammo/Handgun/pdx1.html

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/HG_bondingexp_200905/