What self defence ammo should I use?

[Bachus]

Hiya fellows,

I've been reading the excellent threads in Big Dawgs for a while now - and I must say I've picked up so much info it's unbelievable...

Anyways, I finally got MY G21 on Wednesday, and broke her in yesterday - MAN! Was that sweet! My other 45 is a Remington Rand M1911A1 (1943 I think!) model...so coming over from the 1911 to the G21 took a bit of an adjustment if I may say so, but I'm sorry, I just gotta yell it out - I LOVE MY G21!!

Ok enough of that already I hear you say... :)

Let me open up a can of worms and ask you guys this - What would be the best personal protection ammunition I could carry? ;N I am currently carrying Remington Golden Sabre, 185gr (not +P) - I've read somewhere that one should stay away from +P's - is that true in the GLOCK?

Oh and I live in South Africa - so we do get imports from the USA...

[DannyR]

Your new G21 will safely handle any commercial ammo available. It shares the same frame as the G20 10MM pistol. Any premium personal defense ammo will do. I prefer the +P variety in my Glock 45's.

[RedDevil]

I've been using 230gr Federal Hydro-shocks in all my carry guns.

[denfoote]

185gr Rem GS will do just fine!!! :)

[Glock21Owner]

Look at MagSafe ammo

[nclawdog2001]

200gr +P Speer Gold Dot

[MrMurphy]

After having seen a mess of shootings in person, pretty much any caliber will work, and any round will work, if you put it in the right spot (cop I know was nearly killed by a .25 FMJ to the neck) but if you're shooting a .45, I myself carry the 230-grain Federal Hydra-Shok, because it's got a good track record, and I know several guys who are still alive because it worked, in 9mm, .40 and .45 (friend of mine did a one-shot center-of-mass stop with a 124g 9mm Hydrashok on a guy with a knife, another cop I know whacked a guy at contact range with 2 .40 Hydrashoks, the guy didn't die, but he stopped trying to grab his gun. One other guy I know used the .45 version and had similar results).

The 230-grain Hydra-shok used to be the FBI's .45 load for their .45 users, now they've gone to the Remington Golden Saber in the same weight, but the Hydrashok is still their backup load if they can't get GS's. I use both, mostly the Federal, but I do have a box or two of Remingtons sitting around.


PS do you want a buncha shooting magazines? I know you South African guys don't get many and I've got tons sitting around (Combat Handguns, Gunworld, all sorts)

[JoeG19]

Currently:
G19 Corbon 115gr 9mm +P

Going to:
G30 Federal Hydra-Shok, P45HS1, 230gr JHP
G19 Federal Hydra-Shok, P9HS1, 124gr JHP

[DAVEKO]

What I use and the order I like: But any one will do......;f


.45acp G30
200 Grain Gold Dot Pro Load +p http://www.proload.com
230 Grain Federal Hydra shock http://www.natchezss.com http://www.ammoman.com
185 Grain Remington Golden Saber http://www.natchezss.com

9mm G26, G19, Sig 228, CZ75B
147 Grain Gold Dot Georgia Arms (1050fps) http://WWW.gerogia-arms.com
124 Grain Federal Hydra Shock +p+ http://www.ammoman.com http://www.natchezss.com

.40 *&* G27
165 Grain Gold Dots Pro Load http://www.proload.com

.38spl Taurus CH85 custom
158 grian lswchp +p Corbon (no longer made by Corbon) (1000fps)
Rem. 158 grianer will do fine http://www.natchezss.com

.32acp Keltec p32
60 grain Winchester Silver tip hp http://www.natchezss.com

[Bachus]

Hiya Guys,

Thanks for all the info - it seems that if I stick with the GS's I should be fine - only thing that one should concentrate on is TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN!! Oh yes and did I forget to mention that one should train hard? ;)

Anyways, the only other question I have is what grain should I go for? ;Q

I'm of the opinion that for self defence rounds one should stay away from the heavier rounds - is this correct? I stumbled across 50 rounds of Rangers that someone had lying in their safe for I don't know how long - it was 230gr...two things made me not take them:

1) being 230 grain
2) the brass casings had some rust marks on it...very small but it was there none the less...

So should one go heavier (thus slower - and the 45 ACP isn't one of the fastest bullets around :) ), or should one go lighter and faster?

Once again thanks for all the tons of info...

[MrMurphy]

The .45 ACP was designed for a 230-grain bullet. In .45s, I stick with heavy bullets, it's an inertia killer not a velocity-round like the 9 or .357. I've seen what a 230-grain .45 will do, even without being a hollowpoint, and it's impressive, I have not seen anyone shot yet with the lighter-weight .45s yet (and probably won't, all the cops around here use the .40).

In the 9mm I stick with the 115 and 124-grain since that's what the round was designed around, and get a good hollowpoint.

So that's why I use a 230-grain Hydra-Shok instead of a 185. In super-short barrels (3") I might go to the lighter load, but the G30 is just a compact.

[fastbolt]

It sounds as though you have access to decent ammunition, as the 185gr GS round you're using is generally considered to be a decent round. I prefer the heavier rounds, myself, for many of the reasons already stated, but I wouldn't bat an eye if I was suddenly limited to the lighter rounds. The lighter, non-+P rounds do seem to have less perceived recoil impulse, which would make for real easy shooting in your G21, and for very fast follow-up shots. It's more a personal preference, though ...

... and you've already hit upon the MAJOR factor in the successful utilization of a sidearm for immediate personal defense ... Practice.

Being unfamiliar with your reasons for going armed, and the circumstances where you live ... Do you plan on having the pistol at hand as your only means of defense, or, as a means of defending yourself until you can get your rifle? Just curious, as I don't often get to talk with many who live where you do.

Best regards ...

[Bachus]

Hi there once again thanks for the replies, I've decided to go with the heavier 230gr +P's...

Fastbolt - we have access to decent imported ammo - not as freely available as I would imagine you guys would be able to get in the USA, but the guys here do import most of the decent stuff we read about on and off - like CorBons, Starfires, Hydrashoks, Gold Dots etc etc...you can even find a box or two of Rangers floating about if you're lucky... ;)

To answer your question about going armed:

I live in the Gauteng province in SA, which is unfortunately getting more and more notorious for its crime as each day passes - I have a good job and earn a well above average salary, which makes one a target in this country. If you drive around in the car you've always wanted, or if you stay in an expensive security complex, you can be assured that you will at one point in time become a target of criminals. I don't know how well you know SA, but here there is a very wide divide between the hungry, poor and desperate masses and the rich, elite few - and it's growing! The government in SA unfortunately also doesn't seem to have the backbone to implement stricter laws and to enforce them, so criminals in this country basically get to do what they want. Violent hijackings are the order of the day in and around Gauteng - that's why when you drive a luxury vehicle and get hijacked you are shot on the spot, because the criminals are safer killing you than leaving you alive so that you can get to the police and demand that they search for the criminals. Also most of the poor masses live in townships, and partly because of unkept election promises (free houses, free water, free electricity!) the criminals bringing in hijacked vehicles (that are cut up within hours in chop shops) are perceived as hero's - while the police are perceived as a threat and are reluctant to enter the townships.

Every day in our papers we read amazing stuff like 4 guys storming into a foodmarket opening fire with stolen guns without saying a word and then once they've mown down the people inside, grab the cash register and escaping... They even storm into police stations and rob the police station of all their guns and ammunition. This might sound far fetched - but I promise you - this is the South African reality.

A few years ago (before the ANC got into power) if violence was involved it was due to some escalation of sorts happening...nowadays, all the victims who've survived violent attacks all say the same thing: the hatred they saw in the criminals's eyes was something they've never experienced before. This is because most of the violent crime happening in this country has racial undertones.

Anyhow - I can carry on aaaallll day long - there is not one South African these days whose life hasn't been touched in some form or the other by violent crime - we each have at least 1 or 2 stories we can tell about someone close to us who's been raped or murdered or shot in a hijacking attempt etc etc etc...;g

A pity really. We had such a beautiful country. I admire the American people for their patriotism towards their country - the September 11 attacks once again showed exactly how patriotic the Americans are - I wish we could be the same... I once was absolutely patriotic towards South Africa - but that was when I still felt part of what was happening in this country - these days especially the whites in SA feel like they are unwanted guests.

Anyways to get back to your question: both me and my fiance carry on a daily basis( she G19, and me of course G21 ;f) - we've both been training at least a couple of times a month, and we are going to attend a set of tactical pistol defence training courses starting end of September - I'm really looking forward to that!!

Best regards

[Claywms]

Bachus - sounds really rough in South Africa. May God bless you with safety. Stay armed, stay safe, fight back....or relocate! Your post makes me apreciate the relative safety I have enjoyed here in the USA. Practice hard with that G21. It is a fine weapon that won't let you down.

[Bachus]

Hi there Claywms,

Thanks for all the best wishes, today is the 11th of September and we are all thinking of you guys as you remeber and pay tribute to all the people who lost their lives in this cowardly terrorist attack.

I apologise for sounding extremely negative about South Africa, but unfortunately South Africa is just becoming another African country with a useless government trying to blame all their shortcomings on the colonial past...<sigh!>

I'd like to ask you guys from the USA a question: do you also have roadsigns in your cities and towns saying "Warning! Hi-jacking hotspot!" or the like?

Anyways, my fiance and I will be getting married soon - and then we will emmigrate somewhere else...two countries come to mind: America and Australia. If America's emigration laws weren't so tough I'd have gone there a long time ago already! :-)

Keep well and stay safe!

[MrMurphy]

Australia is extremely gun-unfriendly, crime rate is going up. Something to keep in mind.

[Bachus]

Hi MrMurphy

You say that Australia is gun unfriendly - why do you say that? Compared to which country are they gun unfriendly? From all the links to shooting associations(millions of them) and the number of shooting clubs in the different styles I assumed that they would not be nearly as unfriendly towards guns as here in South Africa - here you can basically own only two handguns, of which only one can be registered as a self defence weapon, the other for sport (this is the proposed legislation they want to implement). If you want to own more hand guns you have to register as a bona fide sportsmen etc etc... Also - we have a 6-8 weeks waiting period in order for our gun license application to be approved... Surely Australia isn't worse than this?

And the worsening crime? Isn't this a problem in all the developed countries in the world? You have all the riff raff flowing into your developed country to come and make a living they couldn't otherwise have, and once there they realise there's a reason for the country being developed - certain standards that needs to be maintained etc etc etc...so they revert to crime...and so it carries on...

I have family in Australia - and we speak on a daily basis through e-mails, the rising crime in Australia isn't nearly on the same level and desperation we are accustomed to here in SA - and it isn't rising at the same level as here in SA.

Don't get me wrong - if I could emigrate to the USA and be accepted as a citizen I would have done so looooooong ago...but Oz seems to be the next best bet coming from SA...

[MrMurphy]

They banned most firearms, the ones you CAN have, you can't have for "defence" they have to be locked up, etc etc on and on. Even worse than NYC's gun laws.

[F-250 Hoss]

For my G30 I have the following self defense rounds on hand right now:

Federal 230 gr. Hydra-Shok
Pro-Load 200 gr. +P Gold Dot
Cor-Bon 185 gr. +P JHP

It's currently loaded with the Cor-Bon round.

For my 27 I have:

Federal 165 gr. Hydra-Shok
Cor-Bon 135 gr. JHP

Currently loaded with Cor-Bon as well.

[Bachus]

Hi there F-250 Hoss!

Thanks for the info - I've decided to chuck my 185gr Golden Sabers for what I am currently carrying: 230gr +P Rangers...;f

Keep well and stay safe.
Bachus

[MIKES LAW]

I think that 230's are a very good choice in 45 ACP for many of the reasons stated above.

I also think that you may be wise to emigrate if things have deteriorated there as much as you say. Are there any countries run by natives of Africa (non Arab) that are modern, successful, relatively stable, etc., etc.? There may be, but even Nigeria, which seemed so stable to me in the past is in the throes of much chaos, so I cannot think of any at the moment. I've met people who lived in SA before the present government and they indicated that it was a great place to live at that time.

Not having tried to get in to the USA (born here) I have to say that I am somewhat surprised that you would have difficulty getting in here. A professional with a little traveling money would seem to be a welcome additon here. We seem to accept the poor, wretched refuse from other countries easily enough. Possibly you should try networking with other SA ex-patriots already here. Although if you are Arab/Muslim that could slow your entry at this time.

I seem to recall that the National Rifle Assocation magazine had pictures of large piles of rifles being staged for destruction in Austrialia. I also seem to recall articles about crime with other weapons increasing because the BG's know that folks are unarmed. Having family in a place has to be a drawing card though.

You and your fiance have a couple of the best handguns made for self-defense. I will pray that you never need to use them for that. I aplogize if I rambled a bit.

Best of luck to you.



:cool:

[F-250 Hoss]

Originally posted by Bachus
Hi there F-250 Hoss!

Thanks for the info - I've decided to chuck my 185gr Golden Sabers for what I am currently carrying: 230gr +P Rangers...;f

Keep well and stay safe.
Bachus

Honestly...with the .45, I'd feel safe with pretty much any round in the chamber as long as it's reliable. :)

[JBBooks]

Is there anything on a practical level that would help you and yours get in the US?

JBB

[Gunnut 45/454]

I'm using 185 Silver tips now but I'm working up a load with 230 JHP Winchesters. Chrono'd the Silver tips and they where in th Hi 800's !! They should be around 1100, so they are gone as soon as I get my 230 grs working. If I can get these cooking in the Hi 900's I'll be happy.;f

[Bachus]

Originally posted by JBBooks
Is there anything on a practical level that would help you and yours get in the US?

JBB

Hi JBB - I'm not sure I understand your question... ;Q

[Gunnut 45/454]

Well I'll be getting rid of the 185 silver tips;f

.45 ACP 230 gr JHP(Win) 5.0gr Bullseye OAL 1.2 1026 FPS 538 ME
out of my P90.
BG beware!!

[Lunkhead]

Originally posted by MIKES LAW
even Nigeria, which seemed so stable to me in the past is in the throes of much chaos,


Mike - Nigeria is has never been stable. It is a country that obtains almost all it's money from cheating citizens of other countries - especially the US. If you've ever seen pictures of Nigeria you'd see the streets lined with ID stores and "check cashing" places. Check you newspapers for Nigerian Check Frauds, it's their lastest scam and it's happening all over the county.

Sorry to get off subject...

[GSRwBOOST]

I'm with a lot of the people above... 230g Federal Hydroshocks in my .45's

[Keifer]

Saw a suspect who had a lower abdominal shot with Mag-Safe ammo in the ER last week.

The hospital has a great ER (Army Doctors routinely come in to train for gunshots and knife wounds - since it so close to "Da Hood" there is always something coming in.

Anyway - the Doctor told me he has worked every kind of pistol wound from FMJ's to hollowpoints and he had never seen the type damage the Magsafe ammo did.

Frangible rounds cause massive tissue/nerve destruction as well as severe bleeding. Almost as soon as it enters the target.

A hollowpoint bullet will give varying degrees of expansion (depending on clothing worn by the suspect)
They usually expand after a few inches in a soft target and will travel creating a "wound channel".

The Magsafe ammo caused a permanent hole in the lower abdominal cavity as big as a large mans fist as soon as it entered the target.
(He dropped like a stone where he was shot)

I saw some at the store and it is pricey -

[Bernoulli]

I wouldn't use any ammo that is remotely non-standard, including MagSafe. The lawyers will be all over you for it, both criminal and civil. I know it isn't logical, but they're lawyers!

Use an off-the-shelf hollowpoint, preferably the same that is used by LE.

[djinco]

No to be crass, but I assume that the guy in the ER lived, or was alive when you saw him. Doesn't say much for that round. I doubt that it was a .45 round. No real reason, or experience on my part, pure speculation.

I would hope that a .45 round (Federal or MagSafe) would make the trip to the ER unnecessary.

[tgtshuter]

I use Speer Gold Dots 230 gr

Whatever brand you choose, be sure to run a bunch through each magazine to ensure reliablity.

[Keifer]

((Sorry for the big post))
Any Lawyer can make speculation that a person used "Non Standard" ammuniton in a weapon - to a jury (and I promise you during a wrongful death suit any regular hollow-point would be just as suspect.)

In the use of fragible rounds an expert witness on self defense could make the argument however, that the use of this round is less dangerous to innocent parties/bystanders - due to over-penetration or ricochets.

As for the shooting it was 45 mag-safe and the guy lived.. although he had part of his stomach removed along with several feet of intestines.. and now has a nice colostomy bag to show for it as well
and is very limited to types of different foods (oh well).

I've seen tapes in the police academy of a suspect getting shot almost point - blank (3 feet) with a SIG 220 using hydra shock ammo.
One round to the stomach and the bad guy got up and asked the DPS Officer why he shot him and he wanted "some water....".

I've seen another tape where the a State Trooper dumped 6 rounds of 357 magnum ammo into a suspects stomach (he was pretty fat) and the suspect still was able to shoot the trooper 1 time with a 22 magnum Derringer - the suspect lived.. the trooper died (the round went through his armpit into his chest cavity.

Both of these shooting where during traffic stops and the ranges were very close - less than 10 feet

I share these stories simply for the fact that I don't care what kind of weapon/ammo you use - it's all about shot placement. The best defense ammo on the market is useless unless you hit a vital area.

Brain and Central Nervous System shots are usually one shot stops but they are very small targets and well protected by the human body. Even with a human heart totally destroyed a fully oxygenated brain can function for up to a minute or even a little more.

[smile_at_u90012]

Winchester 230gr jhp Black Talon.

[Ignition]

January 17th i begin the transition of my carry amo from federal hydra-shocks and (fmj)PMC .45cal to Double-tap!!!!!!!1


im waiting but them double-tap loads are rocking hot and heavy and i wanna make sure that in the event i need to use my g30, that it has as much bite as it does bark!!

[Indebt]

Speer Gold Dot 200gr. +P no doubt absolutely its bonded and the Tacoma PD ran extensive trails and it came out ahead