Inverted Edge Tactics [Archive] - Glock Talk

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mercop
03-25-2009, 10:24
We have been working with Inverted Edge Tactics for just over a year and it is gaining popularity especially with those people who want to know how to use a knife to defend themselves but don't care to study cultural martial arts and knife fighting. It has also proved popular with those who carry a knife as a back up or in support of a firearm.

In 2005 we began to do MCS on the Beach every year at the Ramada Inn in Virginia Beach. The host is Gary Mah and I got to know Gary and Dwight McLemore from attending Bowies on the Beach every JAN. Eventually I was invited to do my own course every OCT. Beginning with the first course we did we attracted lots of knifers from various different backgrounds. What we found was that when force on force took place at conversation distance in confined spaces the "trained" and the "untrained" responded the same way when the drill started with them being attacked. Even students who would say that they were going to stab ended up slashing wildly. Because they were well within arms reach the attacker would usually take cuts to the outside of his arms and his back. When people slash wildly like that they loose their economy of motion and the knife travels way outside the silhouette of their attacker. This increases the chance of the weapon being blocked/wrapped and leaves the defenders center exposed. If the defender is pushed/knocked backwards the results only increase since our natural response to losing our balance to the rear is to put our arms out to the side to steady ourselves or break our fall.

Using the inverted grip creates cyclic cutting that leads to the default targeting of the back/side of the neck, armpits and groin. Secondary targets usually accessed on the ground include behind the knee and Achilles tendon.

Here is an excerpt from the lesson plan where some of the scientific reasoning behind IET is discussed.

The human body is very well protected from the head down, but from the ground up it is very vulnerable.
Any motion outside the silhouette of your attacker is wasted movement.
The natural human reaction to pain is to pull away. This only increases the trauma caused by an IET cut.
Task fixation increases the effectiveness of IET by using cyclic cutting.
The three primary targets of IET: the neck, armpit, and groin are natural junction boxes for arteries, veins, nerves, muscles, and tendons targeting them all at the same time.
IET takes advantage of the fact that the hardest attacks to defend against are those that come up and to the center by continually using the same line of attack.
Cutting using IET is 30% stronger than cutting away from you.
The IET grip does not allow you to overextend yourself taking you off balance.


IET requires no specialized knives and can be effective with the blade of a muli-tool. Less lethal IET can be employed by females with hard plastic combs. For this targeting of the face/neck/eyes is emphasized. I have also found that when training females with knives who could not see themselves "going after" an attacker in defense, they had no problems defending themselves with IET. Most say because there is no decision for them to make once someone is that close or on top of them. You just set the hook and rip.

Here is a short video clip of IET in action.

http://www.mercop.com/docs/video4.htm

Jeepnik
03-25-2009, 17:38
While one does gain some security by using this technique. And it's definitly lower profile until you actually employ it, you do give up some range of motion with regard to thrusts. Like you say, it's easier to learn and employ. But, I've found Kali to be a better overall skill set. Takes time to learn, but it provides the ability to turn a block into a strike with considerable speed and accuracy.

mercop
03-25-2009, 17:45
How much time? It can also be hard to blend Kali into defensive pistol work. IET is taught in a day and just about anyone with limited mobility can do it. There is no real intentional targeting, only default targets. Hooking and ripping into some of the most vulnerable areas of the human body. This should not be confused with martial arts, it is merely and effective way of using any knife for SD.- George

JFrame
03-26-2009, 08:03
Very interesting stuff, mercop... I just pulled out my Spyderco Lava, and found the knife engaged much quicker to inverted edge deployment than the standard forward grip...

stgha
03-28-2009, 07:34
How much time? It can also be hard to blend Kali into defensive pistol work. IET is taught in a day and just about anyone with limited mobility can do it. There is no real intentional targeting, only default targets. Hooking and ripping into some of the most vulnerable areas of the human body. This should not be confused with martial arts, it is merely and effective way of using any knife for SD.- George

"Hooking and ripping into some of the most vulnerable areas of the human body" sounds like targeting to me, intentional or not.
"It can also be hard to blend Kali into defensive pistol work" It can be hard to blend any 2 skills together, it takes time to learn when to transition from one skill set to the next.
I am not trying to bash what you teach, I am grateful that you are passing what are, IMO much needed skills to others.
However, there is a large difference between what is taught in a day and the skill you can attain from years of training.

Again, just my own personal opinion.....

mercop
03-28-2009, 08:26
I agree. What is most often taught is intentional targeting, we use default targeting. Default targeting is learning where your blade is most likely to end up during a confrontation in addition to learning what targets will likely open up when another is attacked. We refer to this as body mapping.

The reality is that some of the folks who are most likely to need edged weapon skills such as military, police, corrections and security professionals have many other skill sets that need to be maintained. This means that unless they have a specific interest in this area the only training they may receive are in-service type. Couple that with the fact that seldom do these other skill sets create a "system" you can see where using the known to teach the unknown is beneficial.- George

Jeepnik
03-28-2009, 16:53
How much time? It can also be hard to blend Kali into defensive pistol work. IET is taught in a day and just about anyone with limited mobility can do it. There is no real intentional targeting, only default targets. Hooking and ripping into some of the most vulnerable areas of the human body. This should not be confused with martial arts, it is merely and effective way of using any knife for SD.- George

Oh the basics can be mastered in a few months. But, there are some I've watched who have been life long practioners. I'd hate to go up against them.

Never thought to use Kali in defensive pistol work. Except for the practice one gets in movement, not much is transferable, except for possibly upper body manuverability.

I get your comment about it not being a "martial art". Sounds like good ole down and dirty knife fighting, which has it's place. Still, while a days training might hold one in good stead against an untrained opponent, should you run into a trained one...

Kali is like any other skill, you get out of it what you put into it. One thing it and any other "martial art" to teach is confidence and control. Both of which can go a long way to avoiding a fight, but if the fight does come, they go a longer way to winning it.

mercop
03-28-2009, 16:56
I am not really worried about facing someone who has professional training since they are more likely to have honor and not be involved hurting others. My focus it to train for the criminal who either sees you standing between him and his next rock or going back to prison to do the time he has backed up. Those are the type of people who attack like a dog bites, out of fear and instinct.

Jeepnik
03-28-2009, 17:05
Mercop, I understand where you are coming from. I'm not bad mouthing IET, as anything that helps and can be learned by those who don't want to spend long periods of time becoming proficient is of value. I guess those of us that spend years practicing an art form sometimes feel a little protective of the time we've spent.

You're probably right about most street thugs being like vicious dogs. In fact, a darned good comparison.

The one fear I have over any quickly learned skill is that it might make some overconfident, thus they go where they should not. I've noticed that if you ask someone trained in the martial arts about going into bad areas, they usually say to just stay out. And, while you don't have to be in a "bad area" for bad things to happen, those with more involved training seem to be more aware of their surroundings.

mercop
03-28-2009, 17:20
Mercop, I understand where you are coming from. I'm not bad mouthing IET, as anything that helps and can be learned by those who don't want to spend long periods of time becoming proficient is of value. I guess those of us that spend years practicing an art form sometimes feel a little protective of the time we've spent.

You're probably right about most street thugs being like vicious dogs. In fact, a darned good comparison.

The one fear I have over any quickly learned skill is that it might make some overconfident, thus they go where they should not. I've noticed that if you ask someone trained in the martial arts about going into bad areas, they usually say to just stay out. And, while you don't have to be in a "bad area" for bad things to happen, those with more involved training seem to be more aware of their surroundings.


No worries brother, I did not take it that way. I am also a traditional martial artist, my core art is Yoshin Ryu Ju Jitsu. MCS uses the human response to stress, anatomy and using the known to teach the unknown. That with the study of how assaults actually occur allow us to narrow down what we teach. We are concerned with the task and standard. The more training you have the better you will fare in more conditions.

paul gustafson
04-06-2009, 12:37
nevermind

Mr. Blandings
04-06-2009, 12:47
Why not simply use a double edged blade? Too simple?As noted in the original post, IET does not require a specialized knife. IET can be used with ANY type of knife, including double edged. In fact, some aspects of IET can actually be used with other objects of opportunity (also noted in the original post).

Also, another primary concept of IET is that most people carry folding knives with a blade length of four inches or less on a day-to-day basis. Very few folders are double edged.

JFrame
04-06-2009, 12:52
As noted in the original post, IET does not require a specialized knife. IET can be used with ANY type of knife, including double edged. In fact, some aspects of IET can actually be used with other objects of opportunity (also noted in the original post).

Also, another primary concept of IET is that most people carry folding knives with a blade length of four inches or less on a day-to-day basis. Very few folders are double edged.


Another point to add is that many states/municipalities ban the carry of double-edged knives...

paul gustafson
04-07-2009, 10:03
my bad

mercop
04-07-2009, 22:20
Why not use a double edged blade,..too simple? Why not two knives with two different grips? Why not use a knife that you cannot drop so grip can be changed whenever you like?

Paul seems to really be pushing something-
http://glocktalk.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2973085

Jeepnik
04-08-2009, 18:32
You know, I always thought the old knuckle duster knives from WWI would be just the thing. Too bad they are illegal just about everywhere. That, and it's impossible to find a quality repro, much less an original. It would open up a whole new level of possiblilities regardless of whether you're using IET of some other method. In fact, I've seen pictures of both single edged and double edged knives. Most have a skull crusher on the butt of the brass knucled grip.

mercop
04-08-2009, 19:24
Mark Terrell makes one called the Crowd Pleaser.

JFrame
04-09-2009, 05:57
Paul seems to really be pushing something-
http://glocktalk.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2973085


Hi George...That link doesn't seem to work. You might want to just link to the actual thread location.

paul gustafson
04-09-2009, 13:31
"Bring TWO!"
...(alias)...

mercop
04-09-2009, 13:37
Can someone please translate

CWO 963A
04-09-2009, 14:07
Mercop: Great video. Your IET is perfect for my Spyderco Civilian.

mercop
04-09-2009, 14:48
You ain't kidding, great application for a great knife.- George

Jeepnik
04-10-2009, 18:26
Mark Terrell makes one called the Crowd Pleaser.


Do you have contact info?

mercop
04-10-2009, 21:35
Do you have contact info?

http://www.mtknives.com/crowdpleaser.html

meshmdz
04-11-2009, 11:33
If I find myself reaching for my fixed blade in a fight, I am in dire circumstances, to say the least.

mercop
04-11-2009, 13:05
My personal feeling is that if you are reaching for any weapon you are in dire circumstances.- George

Green_Manelishi
04-05-2010, 15:53
A wee bit late to the party but if I am reading this correctly, and viewing the video correctly, I believe Michael DeBethencourt taught this type of thing in the late 1980s/early 1990s using a SpyderCo Civilian knife.

mercop
04-06-2010, 08:56
Not sure, I have not had the benefit of training with him. The inverted grip has been around as long as knives were. The difference with what we accomplish with IET is that the focus is not the knife but the angles and anatomy. The same tactics work open handed and with a pen/kubaton. Always easier to use the known to teach the unknown.- George