Restaurant carry? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Romadoc
03-27-2009, 14:31
Can one carry in a Florida restaurant that serves alcahol? In Georgia, we recently were allowed this right.

rich52us
03-27-2009, 14:35
Can one carry in a Florida restaurant that serves alcahol? In Georgia, we recently were allowed this right.


You can carry in a restaurant. Just not in the "Bar Area". Technicaly, you can't walk through the bar area to go to the rest room.

djegators
03-27-2009, 21:13
Rich is correct, you may carry in a restaurant, even if it has a bar, but you must stay out of the bar, and of course you cannot drink. I would not take a chance on a place that is a bar, but may possibly pass a resataurant. Basically, don't take the chance if you are not sure (Applebee's is fine, just sit in the dining room).

LurkMastR
03-28-2009, 07:57
Rich is correct, you may carry in a restaurant, even if it has a bar, but you must stay out of the bar, and of course you cannot drink. I would not take a chance on a place that is a bar, but may possibly pass a resataurant. Basically, don't take the chance if you are not sure (Applebee's is fine, just sit in the dining room).

Just a clarification here: you cannot be in the bar area, but you are not prohibited from having an alcoholic beverage if you are in the dining area. Whether you should or shouldn't drink an alcoholic beverage while carrying is another topic.

apfire26
03-28-2009, 08:16
Just a clarification here: you cannot be in the bar area, but you are not prohibited from having an alcoholic beverage if you are in the dining area. Whether you should or shouldn't drink an alcoholic beverage while carrying is another topic.

Thats what my instructor told me. He said there is no law saying you can not drink while carrying a firearm. I'd say anymore then a drink or 2 would be a bad idea.

Fire_Medic
03-28-2009, 22:32
Correct! The law states that you cannot CCW in an establishment who's MAIN purpose is to serve alcohol like a club. However, a restaurant which mainly serves FOOD is fine, and you can have a drink but can't be at the bar with your gun, and while it's not illegal to drink with your firearm on you, remember, it is illegal to be DUI with that firearm concealed. And DUI by the legal limit, not by well I can drink a six pack and I'm fine. Nothing would be worse than god forbid you had a few and had to use your gun in self defense and you were over the legal limit.

Mr. Blandings
03-29-2009, 13:56
...it is illegal to be DUI with that firearm concealed. And DUI by the legal limit, not by well I can drink a six pack and I'm fine. Nothing would be worse than god forbid you had a few and had to use your gun in self defense and you were over the legal limit.790.151 Using firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages, chemical substances, or controlled substances; penalties.--

(1) As used in ss. 790.151-790.157, to "use a firearm" means to discharge a firearm or to have a firearm readily accessible for immediate discharge.

(2) For the purposes of this section, "readily accessible for immediate discharge" means loaded and in a person's hand.

(3) It is unlawful and punishable as provided in subsection (4) for any person who is under the influence of alcoholic beverages, any chemical substance set forth in s. 877.111, or any substance controlled under chapter 893, when affected to the extent that his or her normal faculties are impaired, to use a firearm in this state.

(4) Any person who violates subsection (3) commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(5) This section does not apply to persons exercising lawful self-defense or defense of one's property.Nothing in Florida law prohibits CCW while intoxicated, but it may be unwise to do so.

Usingmyrights
03-29-2009, 23:32
I went out to eat with a few friends and there was about a 30 minute wait. The lady said that there was a pub 2 doors down and that she would page the bartender if we wanted to head down there while we waited. We had ridden in my buddies jeep, so I had to just hang out by the door. I could have cussed him for that one and the other two guys were trying to figure out what was going on.

JerryVO
03-30-2009, 06:46
Not to split hairs, but I was told differently at my CCWclass and I have asked several officers and they agree with the interpretation I was given.

The law says:
any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose

In the bar area of apple-bees, outback, etc... they do not just have the 'bar' they have a bunch of tables as well, and even at the 'bar' most of the people are ordering appetizers while they wait for their table or eat their whole meal at the bar. Even in taverns (like an Irish pub) there are enough tables to make an argument that they are a 50% restaurant and carry is OK. From what my cop friends (Tampa PD) tell me is it is OK to carry in those areas, but if you are being an ass or the cop you deal with is an ass it is a gray area and you may be up for a fight, which you will probably win in court. When the law says Bar they are referring to bar / nightclub places.

Now take all this with a grain of salt as it is their interpretation of the law and the LEO you may meet may have a different one.

My feeling is since a convincing argument can be made for carrying in the bar part of the restraint and it is concealed anyway I would rather be able to defend my life and explain my actions to a jury than be dead and think, well it was a gray area of the law.

rich52us
03-30-2009, 07:57
Not to split hairs, but I was told differently at my CCWclass and I have asked several officers and they agree with the interpretation I was given.

The law says:
any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose

In the bar area of apple-bees, outback, etc... they do not just have the 'bar' they have a bunch of tables as well, and even at the 'bar' most of the people are ordering appetizers while they wait for their table or eat their whole meal at the bar. Even in taverns (like an Irish pub) there are enough tables to make an argument that they are a 50% restaurant and carry is OK. From what my cop friends (Tampa PD) tell me is it is OK to carry in those areas, but if you are being an ass or the cop you deal with is an ass it is a gray area and you may be up for a fight, which you will probably win in court. When the law says Bar they are referring to bar / nightclub places.

Now take all this with a grain of salt as it is their interpretation of the law and the LEO you may meet may have a different one.

My feeling is since a convincing argument can be made for carrying in the bar part of the restraint and it is concealed anyway I would rather be able to defend my life and explain my actions to a jury than be dead and think, well it was a gray area of the law.

I think it would be a mistake to be in the "bar area" of a resaurant and be discovered, for whatever reason, to be carrying a concealed handgun. I think you would be making your "grey area" argument from behind bars. It would be wiser, IMO, to stay out of the bar area and not have to make the arguement at all. Just my $0.02.

JerryVO
03-30-2009, 08:33
Believe me, I do not go looking for trouble and I generally avoid the bar areas, but if I am somewhere with a 45 minute wait I will not shy away from a 2 person high top to order appetisers and a beverage.

Since I have seen some crazy comments out there like you can not even walk though the bar area to go to the bathroom I wanted to put another point of view out there.

djegators
03-30-2009, 08:36
FWIW, I would say its best to avoid situations that lawyers can use against you....they are tricksy little demonses. Odds are, just walking thru the bar won't get you in trouble, nor will having a beer or two with dinner...at the same time though, I don't want to give anyone ammunition to use against me if something bad happens.

rich52us
03-30-2009, 14:28
Believe me, I do not go looking for trouble and I generally avoid the bar areas, but if I am somewhere with a 45 minute wait I will not shy away from a 2 person high top to order appetisers and a beverage.

Since I have seen some crazy comments out there like you can not even walk though the bar area to go to the bathroom I wanted to put another point of view out there.

Many consider Jon. H. Gutmacher, Esq. to be the authority on FL carry laws. I encourage every FL CCW holder to get and read his book "Florida Firearms Law, Use & Ownership". It's available at most gun shops or online, and is considered the reference.

I should have attributed the "crazy comment" about bars to him. He writes on page 68 iof his book:

"In other words, if you go into a restaurant, you can't go in the bar, you can't even walk through the bar -- but you can sit at a dinner table, go to other places within the establishment not within or through the bar area, and even order drings with your meal, or just order drinks."

I'm going to take his advice over any "crazy comments" on this thread or any other. Again, just my $0.02 and you do what you think is best for you.

LurkMastR
03-30-2009, 16:32
We all know what "bar" means and probably nobody would argue over that. However, what is the definition of "bar area"? Is that clearly defined in the FL statutes, or is there case law regarding this?

As was mentioned already, many places have tables near the bar (some are high-tops, some are normal height tables). Unless the establishment has a "wall" or some other dividing feature that clearly delineates the bar area from the "restaurant" area, how do you know which tables are in the bar area? I ask this as a rhetorical question since it's a gray area to me, and I haven't seen any clear legal definition.

I've been in a local place where the hostess asked my wife & I if we wanted to sit at the bar or if we wanted a table. I said "table", so then the hostess promptly seated us at a table... right next to the bar and inside a half-walled area separate from the main dining area, so I would consider that part of the bar area. I imagine she thought I was being a pain-in-the-posterior when I said "Do you have any other tables not so close to the bar?"

u n v kenny
03-30-2009, 17:10
From the "Sixth Edition --- 2009: FLORIDA FIREARMS Law, Use, and Ownership."

11. In any portion of a restaurant, bar, nightclub, or other establishment licensed to serve alcohol for consumption on the premises (not a liquor store which only sells the packaged stuff vs. serving it) in the portion of the premises that is primarily devoted to that purpose.

In other words, if you go into a restaurant, you can't go in the bar, you can't even walk through the bar -- but you can sit at a dinner table, go to other places within the establishment not within or through the bar area, and even order drinks with your meal, or just order drinks. However, be warned, that in many of the reciprocal states you are prohibited from going in any establishment that serves alcohol, with a concealed weapon or firearm.







Hope this helps?

JerryVO
03-31-2009, 06:40
We are all dancing around the issue because the law does not clearly define the restaurant bar concept. There has been no case law that I know of that defines it either. Even the experts are only giving their opinion on the issue.

"in the portion of the premises that is primarily devoted to that purpose."

Lets look at the 2 poorly defined criteria:

primarily devoted to that purpose - What defines this primary purpose 51% of sales, 51% of gross profit,, 51% ratio of drink vs food going out, 51% of the people drinking and not eating. This is very important and should be clarified in the law. There needs to be some criteria somewhere that defines this.

portion of the premises - Again, we need a definition of portion of the premises. Is this the whole area behind the little half wall, is it the long bar counter area which still serves food, or can we narrow it down to the little side bar where servers pick up drinks for the restaurant. What if there is no half wall and the bar just opens up to the restaurant, how many feet out does the bar stop and the restaurant start.

And when you try to add two undefined terms it gets even worse. What about restaurants like Magianos or Bone-Fish in Tampa (if you have been to ether) The reception/hostess area and the 'bar' area are all open in the front of the restaurant, so can you not even walk in and ask for a table?

Without any clear definitions and no case law this is a judgment call for you, the cops, the DA, and ultimately a jury. When I personally interpret the law for myself I ask what is the spirit of the law, and what would a reasonable person think because those are the questions the jury would need to answer.

Obviously the spirit of the law is to keep guns out of the equation where bar fights and drunken behavior tend to happen. I don't think the law was intended to keep us from walking to the bathroom, asking for a table, or keep us from eating at a table in close proximity to the bar.

The other question is what would a reasonable person think. Again I don't think any reasonable person would convict me for walking to the bathroom or eating at a high top.

Unfortunately we are not going to come up with the answer in this thread either, because it has never been tested.

Personally I think they wrote it this ambiguously on purpose so they could have a law to use for an unruly customer with a gun but allow the average Joe to live his life.

Maybe I will be the first one to test the law when I get stopped for going to the bathroom.

djegators
03-31-2009, 08:06
I agree, go with what is 'reasonable' as it is very grey. Ok, I go to a steakhouse, and they have tables near the bar top that are sat by the hostess same as the other tables, so it is obvious that the intent is for dining, not just drinking. It is also likely that most of the people sitting at the bar top will be eating as well. Now, lets say I go to an Applebee's late night. Even at the farthest table from the bar there is likley to be tables full of people who are only drinking. According to what the law appears to say, sitting at a table right next to the bar in the steakhouse will be a violation, but sitting at the table at Applebee's won't be. Which situation is more likely to put you in contact with intoxicated people? It seems that is what they are wanting you to avoid. Would love to get feedback from Gutmatcher in this, since he is the expert.

Truffle8Shuffle
03-31-2009, 11:50
Went to a Fridays here a few weeks ago with my sister and as always, had my S&W snubbie in my pocket. When the hostess asked if we wanted to sit in the bar or at a table, my sister beat me to the punch and said 'bar'. I then said, 'I'd rather sit at a table, can't sit in the bar.' We sit down at our table and she gives me the funny look and says 'What, is there an ex-girlfriend in there or something?' I then quietly explain to her why and then have a nice long conversation on the way down to West Palm as to why I carry. Always fun to have a liberal in the family. :holysheep: