NYC Premise Residence Permit Questions [Archive] - Glock Talk

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tripl
04-04-2009, 22:15
Hi everyone,

I'm new to GT and have learned a lot from you people.

I have one of these NYC permits where I can own handguns but I cannot remove them from my home unless I'm going directly to and from a practice range. I belong to three area ranges and I also have access to a couple more ranges. I can take them directly there and back only.

Here's a question or two:

Assuming I also get an out of state CCW license like the Utah/Florida combo, then can I legally take handguns from NYC to these other states that honor these permits?

If so, I believe that I would have to transport them locked with ammo separate in the trunk or extreme rear of vehicle without a trunk. No problem.

But I may not be able to transport them at all unless there are ranges at the end of my destination. This would be a shame but I will follow the law.

Please help me understand these interstate rules for transporting to and from NYC. There is no way that I want to do anything unlawful due to ignorance. I am curious to know my rights as limited as they may be.

Thanks to all in advance.
T

GMT II
04-08-2009, 18:51
What you speak of isn't illegal but it is against the conditions of your permit. The NYC premises permit is administratively tied to the conditions on its face which say that its good only for the address listed. You can take it from that address to a range in the 5 boroughs. That's it. If NYPD finds out that you took the gun out of their jurisdiction you will lose your permit. Like I said, it isn't illegal as long as you are ok in your destination but in NYS licensing is discretionary.

There is a world of difference between illegal and unallowed administratively under the licensing regime. Do something illegal with a gun and you usually go to jail. Do something against the NYPD regs and you lose your license.

Sorry for the bad news pal.

Hdog83
04-11-2009, 19:53
Well put, concise answer, GMT II. I would add one thing to this point you made, however:

You can take it from that address to a range in the 5 boroughs. That's it. If NYPD finds out that you took the gun out of their jurisdiction you will lose your permit.

This is 100% correct as it stands, but the answer changes a bit once you obtain from the License Division an inappropriately-named "Hunting Authorization Card". This card acts as an amendment to the terms of your premises license, permitting (i) transport to and from "authorized ranges/shooting clubs" (whatever those are) within NYS, and (ii) carrying "while AFIELD" while hunting in NYS in compliance with the NYS Fish and Wildlife Law (now part of the NYS Environmental Conservation Law). With this card, you could travel to a NYS range or hunting location outside the 5 boros with your handgun(s) (secured for transport, of course) without violating the restrictions on your premises license.

As GMT II says, you are prohibited from transporting your premises-licensed handguns outside of NYS, regardless of what other licenses you may possess. See this silly NYS Appellate Division decision (Beach v. Kelly) from last year for more information: http://www.nycourts.gov/reporter/3dseries/2008/2008_05814.htm

(Oh, and please ignore the fact that your premises license allows you to "lawfully possess and carry" your handgun(s) at the origin of your FOPA journey - your premises - as that would invalidate the "logic" used by the Appellate Division judges.)

They used to just give out the green "Hunting Authorization Cards" for the asking at the License Division, but I've now heard that they are requiring a valid NYS hunting license before they'll type up a card for you. Yet another meaningless hoop through which to jump. It's for the children, of course....


There is a world of difference between illegal and unallowed administratively under the licensing regime. Do something illegal with a gun and you usually go to jail. Do something against the NYPD regs and you lose your license.

Again, very well said GMT II.

bklynshooter
04-12-2009, 15:27
I am in the same position as tripl - I have a NYC Residence Permit and belong to a NYC gun club as well as one Upstate. I was able to get a Hunting Authorization Card without showing a NYS hunting license just a month ago. I simply asked for it. However, I do believe they changed the Card - I don't have mine handy - but I think they did away with (i) reference to clubs/ranges. I believe it now only references (ii) carrying it afield. Again - I dont have the card handy to double check it - its Upstate and I'm in City.

Anyone got a current Authorization Card handy?

GMT II
04-13-2009, 12:10
The change regarding having a hunting license likely came about becuse people figured getting the hunting endorsement let them take the gun out of the jurisdiction for target practice, to exercise a carry license elsewhere, etc.

They clearly do not want that. Again, THEY doesn't refer to a real law just the whim of NYPD License Division but the handgun can go home, to a range in the 5 boroughs, hunting (actual hunting not "hunting" to take the gun upstate). Anything else to them is a violation.

Bklynshooter, you are are likely in a bad spot. Your PD upstate should be fine with you having the gun at your upstate home and to target practice with the premesis permit. It would act like any other permit they would see. However, NYPD would likely not be happy. The only way to know for sure is to call and get it in writing. However, you will likely get a "no" answer. If so, and you transport the gun anyway, you will certainly lose the license.

It goes without saying that we need some judicial support to get this mess straightened out. This cannot be lawful.

bklynshooter
04-14-2009, 05:36
GMT II - you are 100% correct. Exactly why I haven't taken my handgun upstate for any reason other than an actual hunting trip! Having spoken with local Upstate law enforcement they have been quite helpful - even humored - with the whole NYC "exemption" thing. NYPD gives a definitive "NO"...each individual officer Upstate says "It's ok with me but I cannot say what other officers will do". So - I shoot rifle/trap Upstate. Handgun in NYC. Not ideal - but not going to ruin my day!

tripl
04-21-2009, 11:24
Thanks for the insightful responses!

GMT II - The ranges I belong to are on Long Island, not in the 5 boroughs...so am I risking the possible loss of my NYC premise permit when I transport to these facilities? Say it ain't so Joe! There is a place in the Bronx that I can use if that's my only truly "lawful" option.

At this point my best course of action is to pursue obtaining a NYS hunting license. Then call (or visit) 1PP to request the hunting amendment thingy.

If that goes ok, then at least I can take it hunting upstate right if transported properly?

But transportation outside of NYS state will continue to be a no-no even if I obtain permits from the state at the end of my destination (FOPA be damned). I think I understand how restrictive this NYC Premises permit is now. Thanks again guys.

bklynshooter
04-23-2009, 14:19
Tripl - you do run the risk of losing your NYC permit if you take a handgun to a Long Island (or any non-5 Borough) range. If there is a spot inspection at the range by law enforcement they could cause a problem. If for some reason NYPD inspects your auto/bag/whatever you could also be in a jam.

The Hunting Authorization has definitely been changed. It now reads: "This amendment to the Premise pistol license issued to the above licensee, provides for the transport, of the firearm(s) indicated on said license, within New York State while unloaded, and in a locked container. It shall further authorize the carry of a loaded firearm on the person, while AFIELD, actively engaged in such lawful hunting as is authorized pursuant to the New York State Fish and Wildlife Law."

gee - I wonder if they consider fishing as "hunting"! hee hee.

tripl
04-23-2009, 20:42
Hey bklynshooter,

Thanks for the heads-up! One range guy on LI recently laughed at me cause I had my 26 in a locked case when I arrived. He said "you MUST be from the city" aloud so that all could hear. There were several other guys present and if any one of them had been LEO, I may have had an interesting wake-up call. I guess I gotta use the range in the Bronx. The guy on LI was a mook anyway.

Can I ask you if you requested the hunting endorsement from 1 PP on the phone or did you go there in person? I hope it will be as easy for me as you described it was for you.

bklynshooter
04-24-2009, 06:38
I got the Hunting Exemption when I got my license - I just asked for it and they gave it to me. I would say you most likely need to do it in person - same office where they issue licenses & inspect firearms - through 1PP security and on the left. I would bring a current/last years hunting license just in case. They had all my paperwork in hand and i had listed my license with license number on my pistol permit application.

good luck

Hdog83
04-24-2009, 08:52
The Hunting Authorization has definitely been changed. It now reads: "This amendment to the Premise pistol license issued to the above licensee, provides for the transport, of the firearm(s) indicated on said license, within New York State while unloaded, and in a locked container. It shall further authorize the carry of a loaded firearm on the person, while AFIELD, actively engaged in such lawful hunting as is authorized pursuant to the New York State Fish and Wildlife Law."

That's the same as it has always read -- there has been no change to the H.A.C. The amendment provided by the H.A.C. still provides for transport throughout NYS (not CCW or open carry), as it always has. If you have a Hunting Authorization Card, you may transport your premises-license handguns outside of the 5 boros (but always within NYS) directly to and from an authorized range or hunting area

The second sentence regarding carrying on the person while afield hunting is a further authorization under the amendment to the premise license. It is not a restriction on the transport authorization provided by the first sentence.

Hdog83
04-24-2009, 08:56
Can I ask you if you requested the hunting endorsement from 1 PP on the phone or did you go there in person? I hope it will be as easy for me as you described it was for you.

You have to request it in person at Room 152 at 1 Police Plaza. It has been reported that some have recently needed to produce a NYS Hunting License to obtain the card, but many, many others have not. The card itself does not have an expiration date.

noprint
05-05-2009, 17:10
Hello all! I'm a newcomer here, but do frequent many other shooting forums. Thanks to all of you for your posts on this subject, we need to have our story on the internet! How a municipality can strip you of your national rights, is beyond my rationale. How, under Furor Bloomberg, can The Peoples Republic of NYC deny us of our rights granted by The 1st Amendment and other states that issue us Non-Resident CCWs? It seems so draconian and communistic to forbid us the legal passage, with firearms, to other more American localities that would welcome us with open arms. When we leave the borders of NYC/NYS, they have no jurisdiction, but rather must defer to the other states laws. It must be unconstitutional to impose such restrictions. I hope that somewhere there is an attorney who would challange Furor Bloombeg & his PRNYC on this issue. I for one, would be willing to contribute to such legal undertaking. Is it possible to get the NRA's support to launch a fund raiser for such a legal action? Is there a Federation of NYC Sporting Clubs that we can reach out to? I believe we should become pro active as opposed to sitting back and accepting any and all "off the cuff" restrictions that 1PP imposes on the gun owners of NYC. Sorry for the long (first) post, but I needed to vent! Again, thanks to all who participated in this discussion, let's keep it going..........

Hdog83
05-05-2009, 22:08
IANAL, but let me try to respond point-by-point.

How a municipality can strip you of your national rights, is beyond my rationale. How, under Furor Bloomberg, can The Peoples Republic of NYC deny us of our rights granted by The 1st Amendment and other states that issue us Non-Resident CCWs? It seems so draconian and communistic to forbid us the legal passage, with firearms, to other more American localities that would welcome us with open arms.

Although we might all agree that all of the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights apply at the federal and state level, that's not the case from a legal perspective today. Until the 2nd Amendment is "incorporated" at the state level, the courts that govern us as NY'ers have held that we don't have any "national rights" to keep and bear arms.

As you probably already know, per NYS Penal Law, which is passed by NYS elected legislators and signed by an elected (er, appointed) governor, licenses are required for handgun possession and carry. Such licenses are granted on a may-issue basis at the county level, and county-level officials act as the licensing authorities across the state (as opposed to, say, a single state-wide licensing authority as in many other states). In NYC, the licensing authority is the Police Commissioner of the NYPD (or his delegates). Although many would argue to the contrary, in NYS the courts have held that licensing authorities have the power to place whatever restrictions they choose on the licenses they grant. In the case of NYC premises licenses, the NYPD (with the help of the NYC Council) has decided to prohibit handgun transportation outside of NYC without the Hunting Authorization Card, and to prohibit handgun transportation outside of NYS altogether.

However, if asked, the NYPD License Division staff will freely admit that they lack the authority to regulate the behavior of individuals outside of their jurisdiction. If you're a NYC resident handgun licensee, then their jurisdiction over you extends throughout NYS, as they are your statutory licensing authority. They can prohibit you from transporting your NYC licensed handguns outside of NYC/NYS, upon threat of criminal prosecution and/or license suspension/revocation, under the powers granted to them under the NYS Penal Law, the NYC Administrative Code and the Rules of the City of New York.

However, if you lawfully possess handguns outside of NYS, your actions with such handguns outside of NYS are outside of their jurisdiction. Whether or not you have a non-resident CCW license for that other state, you may do as you please with such non-NYS handguns, without regard to the dictates of the NYPD. Federal and state laws would, of course, still apply. (FYI - any such non-NYS handguns couldn't legally enter NYS unless you obtained purchase authorizations for each one and had them transferred in via an FFL and added to your NYC license.)

Of course, if you were to get involved in any kind of "incident" with such handguns outside of NYS, the License Division would be within its power to suspend or revoke your NYC license(s) based on unsuitability.

When we leave the borders of NYC/NYS, they have no jurisdiction, but rather must defer to the other states laws. It must be unconstitutional to impose such restrictions.

The NYPD License Division has jurisdiction over your NYS-licensed and possessed handguns, per the authority granted to the NYPD PC in NYS Penal Law section 400 as your licensing authority. They do not have jurisdiction over handguns that you may otherwise lawfully possess outside of NYS.

I hope that somewhere there is an attorney who would challange Furor Bloombeg & his PRNYC on this issue.

NYS law is NYS law. There's not much to challenge, I'm afraid, unless the 2nd Amendment gets incorporated at the state level. Even with incorporation, there's no surety that NYS' licensing and regulatory regime would change for the better.

Given the recent precedent against incorporation in the 2nd federal circuit (which covers NYS), incorporation of the 2nd Amendment can't happen until the SCOTUS resolves the current differences between the holdings of the federal circuits.

I for one, would be willing to contribute to such legal undertaking.

So would a lot of us, if there was something concrete to be done.

Is it possible to get the NRA's support to launch a fund raiser for such a legal action?

At the risk of starting a debate about the strategy, tactics and effectiveness of the NRA (or lack thereof), I think that the NRA leadership has shown that it believes it has more fruitful paths to follow outside of NYC and NYS. You may want to consider whether there are any other national or local pro-RKBA organizations that might be more attuned to helping to fight this fight....

Is there a Federation of NYC Sporting Clubs that we can reach out to?

http://www.nysrpa.org (http://www.nysrpa.org/)
http://www.scopeny.org (http://glocktalk.com/forums/www.scopeny.org/)

You are a member of one or both, right?

I believe we should become pro active as opposed to sitting back and accepting any and all "off the cuff" restrictions that 1PP imposes on the gun owners of NYC.

I'm with you. I contribute to pro-RKBA organizations. I do my best to convert "antis" every chance I get. I write letters and send emails to elected officials and media outlets. I try to help others make their way through the morass of the NYPD licensing process. I'm happy to do more.

Sorry for the long (first) post, but I needed to vent!

I know the feeling. Don't lose hope.

noprint
10-12-2009, 10:06
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