Banned Blackhawk Serpa [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Waylay Heat
04-19-2009, 20:07
I went to my CWP class today and brought out my weapon in my new Blackhawk Serpa holster and was told I couldn't use the Serpa holster because of safety issues. the Instructor stated because of recent mishaps with the holster it was a safety issue. (Folks shooting themselves or accidental discharges during drawing and holstering) This is the first I heard of it and was a little taken aback by the issue.
I personally like the holster and will carry it. If a novice can't handle it he shouldn't buy it. This is the way I look at it. If someone out there can convience me that this is not a safe holster I will consider using another.

Oh Yeah) got a 98% on the written test and a 100 % on the qualifying.

PLEASE REPOND AND SEND ME SOME FEEDBACK..

THANKS

WAYLAY HEAT:brickwall:
G19

NC Bullseye
04-19-2009, 20:49
Finger pressing as firearm is drawn and the finger going into the trigger and causing a discharge. While it's easy to use it during training, the loss of fine motor skills may have an adverse effect when you're adrenalin is squirting out your ears in a real life shoot / don't shoot situation.

I personally don't use that type of holster because I prefer a more concealed approach. I do understand why some instructors will not train with that holster. Just my insight.

Just not worth the outside chance I'd do the bad guys work for him by shooting myself.

BadAndy
04-19-2009, 20:51
There's nothing wrong with the Serpa holsters. People wouldn't have "accidents" with holsters if they paid more attention to what they're doing. Finger on the trigger, obstructions when holstering etc...are what causes "accidents".

Eagle22
04-20-2009, 05:07
When I took my class and looking at other CCW classes all the instructions said, hip holsters ONLY. No shoulder, behind the back, conceal vest or fanny pack holsters.

May be they just want to keep it simple for the class.

David From NC
04-20-2009, 10:49
Tactical Response has a warning on their website about these holsters, which was the first I'd heard. They say that they heard it from another instructor, and now several instructors and groups are on this bandwagon.

Their fear is that the pad of the finger in training will become a TIP of the finger in a real world incident (under stress) and cause a negligent discharge.

That said, my position on this is "duly noted". :yawn:

The SERPA is an EXCELLENT HOLSTER, that fills a serious niche. I think AT BEST we need to assure the student is aware of this and is using the pad of the finger and CONTINUING the extended finger along the side of the pistol until the sights are aligned, and they are ready to shoot.

Is our function not based around "what we do in training we will do in combat"? Or is now "we can train you on the range but in combat you will go to hell so there's nothing we can do?" :dunno:

YES I understand Gross Motor Skills and Fine Motor Skills, and sympathetic response and I know the heartbeat ranges where these changes often occur (in fact I TEACH these things) but I feel that the SERPA "Problem" or SERPA "defect" is NEITHER a "problem" or a "defect". It's a "consideration" AT BEST.

My agency issues these to all plainclothes folks, and many of us use these off duty or when doing plain clothes assignments. I have 4 of them, and I know of NO problems with these holsters and in fact we RECOMMEND them to other officers and civilians.

These are great basic holsters and in fact I PREFER them for range use for several reasons.

1-Reholstering is easy due to the cutout-just bring the weapon back until the dustcover (the bottom of the slide, just under the front sight) hits at the back of the holster and push down. You don't even have to look...

2-The weapon can be holstered with the slide to the rear, and STILL BE LOCKED IN PLACE. This helps everyone know the weapon is safe if working a cold range, and is REQUIRED in some places, and in GSSF.

3-Cost effectiveness-Although I loathe the ultracheap nylon holsters many folks buy with their guns, the SERPA isn't outrageously priced for the amount of holster and function you get.

:embarassed: Ironically I WILL say that I support any instructor or range that forbids these because they SHOULD BE allowed to run their show how they wish. I don't have to like it, and I'm sure they feel strongly about their concerns.

This whole issue MAY be a valid concern, or...maybe Mike Noell / Blackhawk wouldn't give somebody a bunch of free schwag or gear to pimp around in at their classes and they got mad and discovered this "issue" with his best selling holster... :rofl:

Ghost Tracker
04-20-2009, 10:56
Seems to me that your trigger-finger is in precisely the right spot after activating the release on a SERPA holster, down the side of the frame. I, too, have heard the supposed AD/ND issues related to the SERPA...but I've also heard that Elvis works at a Minute Mart in Cleveland.

David From NC
04-20-2009, 11:09
I might add that they only list TWO people that have been injured with these since 2004.

In FIVE years, and they (the ones with the information) only SUSPECT the SERPA design.

I would love to say differently, but I ALWAYS see trigger fingers "sneaking" into trigger guards when the adrenaline is kicked in and the heart is racing. I know that's bad, we yell at them, they jerk it out, and in a few minutes, in another scenario, they might do it again. It's human nature. We do everything we can to stop it on the range and are sometimes successful and sometimes not... I say this because I am wondering if either of the two shooters injured had other trigger finger issues (?)

SERPA or NOT we will NEVER have 100% safety as long as humans handle firearms.

We had an officer here (another agency) suffer an injury a few weeks back when he holstered his G22 into his Safariland duty holster and his KEYS got into the holster and a ND occurred. SURE-in hindsight-I think this was SO avoidable, and easy to prevent, but it happened. They dealt with it, he's back at work, we are ALL more careful, life goes on. :whistling:

jdwatson
04-20-2009, 11:28
I use a bluegun to practice drawing with my SERPA CQC. I like the sound of the click when my G23 goes into the holster. I have a M-TAC IWB (http://www.comp-tac.com/product_info.php?products_id=95) that I like for conceal cary, but I'm still fighting off my winter spare tire so that holster isn't as comfortable as the OWB especially at 3 o'clock.

NC Bullseye
04-20-2009, 13:19
I think the only thing to worry about is that the Serpa is not a good holster to carry with if the person doesn't practice regularly. For those people that don't dedicate the time to practice their draw it's better to use a non active retention type holster.

Otherwise, if you practice to obtain muscle memory on your draw then go for it.

I would still recommend against it for a new person going for their first class or for the CHP class. You don't need any additional worries until you get the basics down.

Plyr58
04-20-2009, 13:40
Do you need to take your firearm to your CC class? I have already shot my qualifying rounds since the class isn't taught at the range here in Greensboro.

NC Bullseye
04-20-2009, 13:43
Do you need to take your firearm to your CC class? I have already shot my qualifying rounds since the class isn't taught at the range here in Greensboro.

You do for mine, no ammo in class but we do refer to the students handgun for instruction. Other instructors may not but most that I know require it.

Eagle22
04-20-2009, 15:46
did for mine as well. We also went over how to take the gun apart as well.

The big part was how to hold the gun. Grips and stance. Even draw from a concealed holster.

again, No ammo to the class room.

Waylay Heat
04-21-2009, 06:37
Great responses on this thread..Thanks to all who are participating...Like I said earlier, I'll carry my Blackhawk Serpa...

MaximaDrvr
04-21-2009, 20:34
Yep, the problem with serpas is lack of training, or stupidity.
They create the perfect draw, with the finger indexed on the frame. It doesn't matter if you use your pad or tip of you finger. It will still be on the frame. If you screw up, then it will go bang, just like it is supposed to.

lbritt
04-22-2009, 13:36
Practice is the key element with a Serpa. For instance, if "in the heat of the moment" you begin the upward pull of the gun before activating the retension release the gun will not leave the holster. You can pull all you want, it ain't coming out. There has been more than one officer who reported a defective Serpa holster when he attempted to draw under stress.

RUReady
04-22-2009, 17:38
I always love it when I see that "instructors" will not "allow" something they do not like, care for, or fits into their preconceived notions of what is good, or bad. The whole issue is silly. Darwins law will take care of those not able, unwilling to become proficient with whatever they so choose as their "perfect" death ray/holster combo.

NC Bullseye
04-22-2009, 18:14
I always love it when I see that "instructors" will not "allow" something they do not like, care for, or fits into their preconceived notions of what is good, or bad. The whole issue is silly. Darwins law will take care of those not able, unwilling to become proficient with whatever they so choose as their "perfect" death ray/holster combo.

You're entitled to what ever opinion you want but as to instructors disallowing something in their class that they do not approve of is their choice. The old saying comes to mind, "Not on my watch". I don't allow reloads in my classes, I don't care what they use otherwise but in my classes it's my choice to use factory ammo only. I reload myself and have had good results but I also have seen the aftermath of extreme overpressure and I choose to not have that happen in my classes.

If Darwin is going to be selective it's not going to be where I have to wash down the walls and bag chunks if I can help it.

As for the holsters, the same applies, I have yet to be reimbursed for the medical supplies I used out of my first aid kit so if someone is going to perforate themselves it's not going to be because of something I perceive as a possible problem if I can stop it from happening. What ever they choose to use after the class is by all means their choice.

You call this silly, I call it paperwork reduction.

RUReady
04-22-2009, 19:35
Yup..I'd call it silly.

OgenRwot
04-22-2009, 19:59
Serpa = just fine.
I'll continue to use mine on the days I OC.

Waylay Heat
04-22-2009, 23:43
good response, However I think the instructor should have taken into account my firearms experience. 16 yearsas a cop on the street. 14 years as a Level 1 & 2 firearms instructor. I shoot regularly and I taught firearms safety to many civic organizations before the CWP era... that was my only gripe...This instructor can do what he wants. I just wonder what the politcal reason was to bann the blackhawk serpa?

Blitzer
04-23-2009, 01:45
An aside: My CHL instructor was a swaggering idiot and could not train one to pour urine downhill out of a boot.

:steamed: :dunno: :fist: :rant:

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa288/Blitzer0101/headinass.jpg

kiss holsters
04-23-2009, 01:54
i have seen frist hand a serpa holster not let the gun go we had to brake it to get it out. if you get any drit in it its a no go. i had a guy give me his drop leg serpa when he picked up one of my belt holster.

RUReady
04-23-2009, 03:18
edited by myself

Disregarded9-side
04-23-2009, 13:17
My instructor recommended Serpas, as most in the industry do. I don't like retention holsters...and think there's no need for one when a weapon's concealed.

If a slide lock is a fine motor skill, then drawing from something like that is just way too much in an ultra-adrinel, ultra-violent situation that's less than 3 seconds long.

It doesn't surprise me at all that the people who use Serpas are the ones shooting themselves. I think this is correlation, not causation.

hpj3
04-29-2009, 16:31
When I took my class and looking at other CCW classes all the instructions said, hip holsters ONLY. No shoulder, behind the back, conceal vest or fanny pack holsters.

May be they just want to keep it simple for the class.
-------------------------------------------------------------
There's a simple reason for this... I have yet to teach at a range that has bulletproof dividers between lanes. Cross draw, SoB, vests, etc., all require sweeping in some form.
Note here that we deal with many, many students and usually know none of them. The safety factor on the range is our prime concern - it wouldn't take many "accidents" before insurance is canceled, bad press, etc. The last thing we all need.
I display all the methods of carry with the pros/cons of each. When asked, I offer my opinion and preferences. I also emphasize that everyone is different and therefore must determine what best works for him/her - and then PRACTICE.

Howard

hpj3
04-29-2009, 16:39
good response, However I think the instructor should have taken into account my firearms experience. 16 yearsas a cop on the street. 14 years as a Level 1 & 2 firearms instructor. I shoot regularly and I taught firearms safety to many civic organizations before the CWP era... that was my only gripe...This instructor can do what he wants. I just wonder what the politcal reason was to bann the blackhawk serpa?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As I indicated above, we have no real way of knowing anyone in our classes. It is impossible (realistically) to have different rules for different people in the class - as you should know from being a police instructor. I think I'm safe in saying that LEO classes are just as restricted, if not more so, than most of ours.

I agree w/ you on the serpa issue...

Howard

Goldendog Redux
04-29-2009, 16:45
I would ban the Serpa holster because it is an unmitigated piece of crap. The ONLY reason why so many people use them is because they are cheap and are easy to come by.

MF

David From NC
04-29-2009, 19:31
It doesn't surprise me at all that the people who use Serpas are the ones shooting themselves. I think this is correlation, not causation.


You think there have been only two NDs on record of all handgun users in five years?????? :rofl:

You think there are only two people USING Serpas? :faint: