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havensal
04-26-2009, 17:50
What's your vote for best all around hunting caliber?

I am thinking from woodchucks to deer and maybe a bear if one walks out.

The reason I ask is I will be helping a friend's son pick out his first rifle soon.

I think my vote would be the 25-06. You can load up some light, fast rounds for woodchucks and some heavier rounds for deer.

My second vote would be for .270. A littler bigger for deer but yet you can still use it for smaller game.

I may be partial as I own both. :supergrin: + I reload for both.

93GT
04-26-2009, 18:53
I used to use a .30-06 and then switch to 55 grain accelerators for woodchucks. I don't think Remington loads them anymore.

vafish
04-27-2009, 12:56
.30-06 here for the best all around, but I do a lot more deer than woodchucks.

If there was going to be more shooting of woodchucks and less deer I'd say a .243 would be a better choice.

And I don't think the .25-06 would be a bad choice either.

MrMurphy
04-27-2009, 15:42
If you can't drop it with a .30-06, you probably shouldn't have been hunting it.

Ak.Hiker
04-27-2009, 23:05
I would take a look at the .260 Remington. Not much more recoil than a .243 with better penetration on medium game.

shot1
04-28-2009, 21:13
I vote for the 25-06 also. I have killed over 200 deer with about everything from a bow and arrow through a 45-70 and I have found that the 25-06 kills way beyond what people think it would. It drops deer dead in their tracks 99.9% of the time with a front shoulder shot. I shoot a hand load with a Sierra 117 gr bullet for deer. For groundhog the Sierra 87 gr bullet going 3300 to 3400 fps is a laser beam that will red mist a groundhog. If I was going after black bear I would use a 115 Nosler partition or a 120 Speer Grand Slam bullet.

noway
04-29-2009, 05:57
30-06

Always around, plentiful and wide/broad applications.


Just like you have multiple srewdrivers, and not all can do the same as the others, just remember that rifles are the same.

shadowhunter
04-30-2009, 01:56
There are lots and lots of good and very good cartridges out there, but very few truly great cartridges. The 270 is truly a great cartridge. It has a super flat trajectory, identical to a 300 magnum. You can load it light, or heavy and it excels either way. You cant go wrong with a 270.

Jonesee
04-30-2009, 20:14
30-06. You can get over the counter or over the net ammo from 50gr. to 225 gr. In North America only Grizzly and Polar Bears would be too dangerous too hunt with it. And there is no doubt a bunch of those have been killed by the 30-06.

You really can't go wrong with it.

creaky
04-30-2009, 20:30
Another 30-06 guy.

Delta-x
04-30-2009, 21:02
In general I would say 30-06, although I dont own one.
My rifles are 25-06 and 7mm mag., and 8mm Mauser

ChuteTheMall
04-30-2009, 21:10
No love for the .308?

I thought it was designed to be ballistically similar to the .30-06?

I'm not a hunter, so I really don't know.

JimBianchi
04-30-2009, 21:27
I don't even have to read the rest of the thread.

30.06 is the king of variety.

Varmints to Moose. Any animal in North American has can be taken with the proper load.

shadowhunter
04-30-2009, 22:24
The 30-06 was considered obsolete by the military in the 50's because it was designed back in the black powder days. The case was to big for the newer modern nitrocellulose powder. So the military commisioned Winchester who redesigned it and that is where the 308 came from. All that being said, the 30-06 is still a good cartridge, but there is nothing superior about it. It is a little outdated, but so are lots of other cartridges. I would pick the 308 any day over the 30-06, with heavier bullets the 308 will out perform the 30-06 ballisticly. I still say if you had to pick only one hunting round the 270 is the one. Because it has such a flat trajectory and more muzzle energy than a 30-06. Good hunting!

Ak.Hiker
04-30-2009, 23:39
The 30/06 has more power than either the 308 or the 270. You can even load the 30/06 with 220 and 250 grain bullets if you had the need. It is pretty hard to find any load over 180 grains in the 308.

vafish
05-01-2009, 07:12
....with heavier bullets the 308 will out perform the 30-06 ballisticly. .


Ummmmmm,

No it won't.

Any reloading manual will show you that you are wrong.

The .30-06 gets approximately 100 FPS more velocity than the .308 with just about any bullet weight, and the .30-06 does much better with heavier bullets like the 180 gr., 200 gr., and 220 gr. It's hard to find reloading data for the .308 with a 220 gr bullet.


Also the .308 came from the .300 Savage, not the .30-06.

chevy01234
05-01-2009, 14:42
.280 one of the most versatile rounds there is in the hunting world!

ajstrider
05-02-2009, 15:43
I think a 30 caliber is needed here, for the bear hunting and big deer hunting. I prefer the 308 but the 30-06 is essentially the same. I would use one of these two cartridges, which is why I own 4 308 rifles.

Esox357
05-03-2009, 18:39
The 30.06 is what all other cartridges are compared too, there is a reason for that. You can't be any more versatile than the 30.06! It has over 100 years to it killing everything in North America and then some. You can't go wrong with one. If you aren't hunting anything bigger than deer or you might hunt elk or black bear one time than a 25.06 would be great as well! Esox357.

klt1986
05-03-2009, 21:35
The 30-06 was considered obsolete by the military in the 50's because it was designed back in the black powder days. The case was to big for the newer modern nitrocellulose powder. So the military commisioned Winchester who redesigned it and that is where the 308 came from. All that being said, the 30-06 is still a good cartridge, but there is nothing superior about it. It is a little outdated, but so are lots of other cartridges. I would pick the 308 any day over the 30-06, with heavier bullets the 308 will out perform the 30-06 ballisticly. I still say if you had to pick only one hunting round the 270 is the one. Because it has such a flat trajectory and more muzzle energy than a 30-06. Good hunting!

These kind of statements amaze me. The .308 is not superior to the .30-06 and the .270 does not have more muzzle energy than the 30-06.

Morgo
05-03-2009, 23:50
.243

Nothing here that .243 would not be highly effective on.

vafish
05-04-2009, 06:39
..... The .308 is not superior to the .30-06 .......

The one point I might give the .308 a slight superiority over the .30-06 is accuracy, but that probably has more to do with the short action rifles the .308 is chambered in than the actual round itself.

And, at normal big game hunting distances with hunting rifles it's a moot point.

Ballistics wise, .30-06 > .308


The .308 does come in slightly shorter, slightly lighter rifles as well. Which may be a consideration since the OP said he was helping a friends son buy his first rifle.

Sully:vz-58
05-04-2009, 06:56
.243

Nothing here that .243 would not be highly effective on.

Kangaroos???????

klt1986
05-04-2009, 12:22
The one point I might give the .308 a slight superiority over the .30-06 is accuracy, but that probably has more to do with the short action rifles the .308 is chambered in than the actual round itself.

And, at normal big game hunting distances with hunting rifles it's a moot point.

Ballistics wise, .30-06 > .308


The .308 does come in slightly shorter, slightly lighter rifles as well. Which may be a consideration since the OP said he was helping a friends son buy his first rifle.

I agree with those points....and I also believe the .308 to be more efficient than the 30-06.

vafish
05-04-2009, 19:10
Kangaroos???????


.243 works great on roos.

noway
05-04-2009, 21:18
These kind of statements amaze me. The .308 is not superior to the .30-06 and the .270 does not have more muzzle energy than the 30-06.

I too, had to scratch my head on that comment also. ;)

Jonesee
05-04-2009, 22:15
The best advice I ever received was this:

I own a model 70 in 30-06. But when I was looking for my oldest son's first deer rifle I did a ton of research and was really leaning to a 270. I walked into my gun shop and as we talked the guy pointed out that a 30-06 loaded at 125 gr had no more felt recoil than a 270, but unlike the 270, the 06 could be loaded up with much heavier loads later for elk or bear hunting.

The 30-06 was what my oldest son got, then my middle son too. I got both of them Savage 110s and I love to shoot their guns. They aren't as pretty as my model 70, but they point like your finger.

In short I was looking for a reason not to buy a 30-06 for my sons and still couldn't find a better all-round caliber.

Morgo
05-05-2009, 03:25
Kangaroos???????


Works very well against roo's

shadowhunter
05-05-2009, 18:23
Ballistics, ballistics, good to know. It can make you the most dangerous thing in the Forrest. If you double the bullet weight, you double the muzzle and down range energy. If you double the velocity you get triple the muzzle and down range energy.

A 270 bullet .277' dia is a little smaller than the .308" dia bullet in the 30-06, because of its velocity has more power than a 30-06, and a much flatter trajectory. This makes it a better choice for many reasons. The 30-06 is an excellent cartridge and it is a good choice. It has been around since 1906, so it is the 30 cal from 06, hence 30-06. The 270 is almost as old dating back to 1923. It is a 30-06 case necked down from .308" to .277", .031" or thirty one thousands of an inch. That is about the width of 10 human hairs, not much at all. With the same volume case for gunpowder capacity, and the ability to increase the maximum charge or amount of powder safely, because of the slightly smaller and lighter bullet, lots of good things happened. Increased velocity, flatter trajectory, and more muzzle energy if both the 30-06 and the 270 are loaded at max loads.

Some said that the 308 was less powerful than the 30-06, that simply isn't true. The 30-06 cartridge looks bigger than the 308, because it is longer, but looks don't mean jack. The 30-06 was designed for black powder, and it needed the big case capacity for black powder. As soon as the modern nitrocellulose powder was developed the 30-06 case was way to big for the volume of powder that was needed for this new powder. This is because it takes much less of the new nitrocellulose powder than it does of the black powder. When the army commissioned Winchester to shorten/modernize the old 30-06 the highest priority was for the new cartridge to have equal or superior power to the old 30-06. The new cartridge was called the T65 cartridge, which Winchester leaked to the public two years before the military adopted it. The military called the 7.62 nato, or the 7.62 x 51 NATO. Winchester simply called it the 308. The 7.62 nato version of the 308 is loaded with less power and to lower pressure than the commercial 308, the 7.62 today is commonly loaded to power levels lower than the 30-06. But the 308 is commonly loaded to power levels superior to the 30-06. Check the Speer reloading manual for reference. The 308 does offer superior muzzle energy to the 30-06 especially with heavier bullets.

Like I said before the 30-06 is a Very good choice with lots of power. In fact you cant go wrong with it but there are better cartridges. Good hunting!!

shadowhunter
05-05-2009, 18:24
Works very well against roo's

Roo, isnt that what you make gravy out of?

93GT
05-05-2009, 18:54
Ballistics, ballistics, good to know. It can make you the most dangerous thing in the Forrest. If you double the bullet weight, you double the muzzle and down range energy. If you double the velocity you get triple the muzzle and down range energy.

A 270 bullet .277' dia is a little smaller than the .308" dia bullet in the 30-06, because of its velocity has more power than a 30-06, and a much flatter trajectory. This makes it a better choice for many reasons. The 30-06 is an excellent cartridge and it is a good choice. It has been around since 1906, so it is the 30 cal from 06, hence 30-06. The 270 is almost as old dating back to 1923. It is a 30-06 case necked down from .308" to .277", .031" or thirty one thousands of an inch. That is about the width of 10 human hairs, not much at all. With the same volume case for gunpowder capacity, and the ability to increase the maximum charge or amount of powder safely, because of the slightly smaller and lighter bullet, lots of good things happened. Increased velocity, flatter trajectory, and more muzzle energy if both the 30-06 and the 270 are loaded at max loads.

Some said that the 308 was less powerful than the 30-06, that simply isn't true. The 30-06 cartridge looks bigger than the 308, because it is longer, but looks don't mean jack. The 30-06 was designed for black powder, and it needed the big case capacity for black powder. As soon as the modern nitrocellulose powder was developed the 30-06 case was way to big for the volume of powder that was needed for this new powder. This is because it takes much less of the new nitrocellulose powder than it does of the black powder. When the army commissioned Winchester to shorten/modernize the old 30-06 the highest priority was for the new cartridge to have equal or superior power to the old 30-06. The new cartridge was called the T65 cartridge, which Winchester leaked to the public two years before the military adopted it. The military called the 7.62 nato, or the 7.62 x 51 NATO. Winchester simply called it the 308. The 7.62 nato version of the 308 is loaded with less power and to lower pressure than the commercial 308, the 7.62 today is commonly loaded to power levels lower than the 30-06. But the 308 is commonly loaded to power levels superior to the 30-06. Check the Speer reloading manual for reference. The 308 does offer superior muzzle energy to the 30-06 especially with heavier bullets.

Like I said before the 30-06 is a Very good choice with lots of power. In fact you cant go wrong with it but there are better cartridges. Good hunting!!


Checking Hornady reloading manuals and load data of reloaders online .30-06 still has a slight advantage despite what your speer reloading manual may say in any bullet weight. As far as the 308 having superior muzzle energy with heavier bullets compared to 30-06, I call BS. I don't believe you can even fit a 240-250 grain bullet in a 308 without suffering in the performance category.

KiloBravo
05-05-2009, 19:23
The good ole .270 Win gets my vote. I have had no problems killing things with my model 700 Remington from Deer, to coyotes, to bears, to groundhogs etc. Some distances out to just over 500 yards. Of course, you can't go wrong with an 06 either!

H2K
05-05-2009, 20:00
The reason I ask is I will be helping a friend's son pick out his first rifle soon.

.243 Winchester is much more manageable in the recoil department than most of the other calibers mentioned here for a new shooter. Wouldn't be advisable for bears but can handle medium to small game with ease in most cases.

klt1986
05-05-2009, 21:07
Checking Hornady reloading manuals and load data of reloaders online .30-06 still has a slight advantage despite what your speer reloading manual may say in any bullet weight. As far as the 308 having superior muzzle energy with heavier bullets compared to 30-06, I call BS. I don't believe you can even fit a 240-250 grain bullet in a 308 without suffering in the performance category.



Maybe he is comparing modern day .308 Winchester loads to the original 30-06 load from 1906?:supergrin:

Shadowhunter, the 30-06 has more velocity and more muzzle energy than the .308 at any given bullet weight. I will grant you that the difference is only around 100 fps.

Now to the .270....it does have more velocity and a slightly flatter trajectory however it has less muzzle energy than the 30-06. Go look at the ballistics tables from Remington, Federal, or Hornady and you will see this.

Please post a link to your reloading data that shows the 308 with more velocity and energy and the 270 with more energy.

noway
05-05-2009, 21:10
Some said that the 308 was less powerful than the 30-06, that simply isn't true. The 30-06 cartridge looks bigger than the 308, because it is longer, but looks don't mean jack. The 30-06 was designed for black powder, and it needed the big case capacity for black powder. As soon as the modern nitrocellulose powder was developed the 30-06 case was way to big for the volume of powder that was needed for this new powder. This is because it takes much less of the new nitrocellulose powder than it does of the black powder.

Where are you getting this BP nonsense?

The 30-06 was not designed around BP when it first came on the market. Even the 30-03 which came before the 30-06 was not designed around BP, and the -06 replaced the -03.

Smokeless powder just gotten better over the years, that's all that it is.

Ak.Hiker
05-06-2009, 00:19
Shot placement still trumps the ballistics. While I know that the 30/06 is more powerful than the 308 in most loadings I also know that with a good bullet either will offer similar killing power as long as the bullet is put into the right place. Load any of them up with a good bullet and put it into the correct spot and you will have a kill. I was talking to an 80 year old retired bear guide on the sidewalk the other day and he reminded me that it was all about shot placement. I had to ask him what his favorite load was and he replied without hesitation the 30/06. For bear he used the 220 grain Remington Core-Lokt.

Morgo
05-06-2009, 00:50
Roo, isnt that what you make gravy out of?

There's never any left for gravy, McDonald use's all of it in their breakfast menu.

klt1986
05-06-2009, 05:36
Shot placement still trumps the ballistics. While I know that the 30/06 is more powerful than the 308 in most loadings I also know that with a good bullet either will offer similar killing power as long as the bullet is put into the right place. Load any of them up with a good bullet and put it into the correct spot and you will have a kill. I was talking to an 80 year old retired bear guide on the sidewalk the other day and he reminded me that it was all about shot placement. I had to ask him what his favorite load was and he replied without hesitation the 30/06. For bear he used the 220 grain Remington Core-Lokt.


You bring up a valid point. If you can't put the bullet into the vitals you will likely have a wounded animal.

I have nothing against the .308 as it is very accurate, ammo is easy to find, is generally lighter and shorter, and offers performance close to the 30-06. It does this with less recoil and muzzle blast to boot.

vafish
05-06-2009, 08:36
The 308 does offer superior muzzle energy to the 30-06 especially with heavier bullets.



No it doesn't. You have it completely backwards. The .30-06 outperforms the .308, especially with heavier bullets.



Hodgdons data for the .30-06:

http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=3999

Hodgdons Data for the .308:

http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=2044

Note that .30-06 has higher velocities than the .308. Also note that .308 data ends with 200 gr bullets while the .30-06 has data for the 220 and 250 grain bullet weight.

Here is load data from dozens of sources for the .30-06:
http://loaddata.com/loads/30-06caliberloads.html

Here is load data for dozens of sources for the .308:
http://loaddata.com/loads/308caliberloads.html

While you might be able to find some .308 loads that out perform some .30-06 loads with the same bullet weight, across the board the .30-06 out performs the .308.

ajstrider
05-07-2009, 04:52
I already put in my opinion but I got to thinking about another one, the .260 Remington. I am a big fan of this cartridge. Some people say it is too small for big game, but the 6.5x55 cartridge which is essentially the same cartridge, has been killing moose for a long long time. It's recoil is very mild and when loaded with 140 and 160 grain bullets, the thing is a super penetrator.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-07-2009, 08:40
I don't get that black powder comment either.

Basically, the .30-06 came from the 7mm Mauser, which was already designed for smokeless power in the 1890s.

I can't remember which Mauser round was the first modern smokeless rimless design that ALL modern rifle rounds came from, but the 7mm was one of the early ones.

And, as the story goes, the US faced the Spanish Mausers in 7mm and basically said "holy crap, we gots to get us something like that". Thus came the development of the Springfiled in .30-03, then basically different bullet weight to .30-06.

And there really hasn't been much change in ammo ever since the 1890s.

I've got a 1965 Barnes catridges of the world book, and it is interesting to look at all the wildcat stuff from before then. Some make it to a factory round, but most don't. Then later, someone comes up with a new factory round, but if you look back decades and decades ago you'll see that some wildcatter had already developed it.

Anyway, I like the .308, and it's less perceived recoil compared to the .30-06, and also the tons of accurate rifles and loads designed for .308. But I also like the .30-06 and it's greater range of bullet weights, assorted factory loads, and slightly increased velocity at any weight (compared to .308).

shadowhunter
05-07-2009, 17:48
Checking Hornady reloading manuals and load data of reloaders online .30-06 still has a slight advantage despite what your speer reloading manual may say in any bullet weight. As far as the 308 having superior muzzle energy with heavier bullets compared to 30-06, I call BS. I don't believe you can even fit a 240-250 grain bullet in a 308 without suffering in the performance category.


My chronograph doesn't display hearsay, it displays facts, and the Speer data is very accurate. Just because the case is larger it doesn't mean the performance is higher. The 30-06 has a large case because of it's age. It was designed in the twilight of black powder, and yes some of the original rounds were loaded with black powder. Otherwise it wouldn't have been designed with such a large case.

For all of you 30-06 fans read it and weep, the maximum SAMMI pressure specs for the 308, and the 30-06.

30-06 Maximum pressure 405 MPa (58,700 psi)
.308 Maximum pressure 430 Mpa (62,000 psi)

More pressure equals more velocity with ANY bullet weight. The 308 is designed with a thicker case on the big end so it holds higher pressure. So like I said the 30-06 is a Very Good round, but it is not superior to the 308 in any thing but length. Get a chronograph for about $80, or borrow one and test some loads, the chrono will not lie.

noway
05-07-2009, 22:10
My chronograph doesn't display hearsay, it displays facts, and the Speer data is very accurate. Just because the case is larger it doesn't mean the performance is higher. The 30-06 has a large case because of it's age. It was designed in the twilight of black powder, and yes some of the original rounds were loaded with black powder. Otherwise it wouldn't have been designed with such a large case.

For all of you 30-06 fans read it and weep, the maximum SAMMI pressure specs for the 308, and the 30-06.

30-06 Maximum pressure 405 MPa (58,700 psi)
.308 Maximum pressure 430 Mpa (62,000 psi)

More pressure equals more velocity with ANY bullet weight. The 308 is designed with a thicker case on the big end so it holds higher pressure. So like I said the 30-06 is a Very Good round, but it is not superior to the 308 in any thing but length. Get a chronograph for about $80, or borrow one and test some loads, the chrono will not lie.


Nobody disputing the max PSI ,but that alone don't make the 308win superior to a 30-06. You really should read a few load manuals or data before posting half cock and incorrect information. I highly doubt you find load data pushing the max SAAMI of 62Kpsi, and I really think that number is CUPs and not PSI, but what do I know.


Also to restate another wrong comment "

I would pick the 308 any day over the 30-06, with heavier bullets the 308 will out perform the 30-06 ballisticly.

also 100% wrong, ballistic wise the 30-06 would be at least 100-150fps greater in velocitiy with heavier bullets. Now what that buys you in the field is another story.


so far your wrong on at least three areas ;)

357glocker
05-08-2009, 16:33
More pressure equals more velocity with ANY bullet weight.

Wrong again, do some research! With just a quick glance because I'm not going to waste alot of time in this topic:
30-06 using 165 gr bullet and H4350 produces 49,400CUP 2938fps
30-06 using 165 gr bullet and H414 produces 49,700CUP 2877fps
.308 using 165 gr bullet and H4895 produces 50,000CUP 2694fps
Your theory does not hold up. Pressure is determined alot by the type of powder used, the burn rate of that powder, the bullet weight, and case capacity.


And my caliber of choice is 7mm mag, but the 30-06 or .308 are good game calibers as well.

shadowhunter
05-08-2009, 17:55
Wrong again, do some research! With just a quick glance because I'm not going to waste alot of time in this topic:
30-06 using 165 gr bullet and H4350 produces 49,400CUP 2938fps
30-06 using 165 gr bullet and H414 produces 49,700CUP 2877fps
.308 using 165 gr bullet and H4895 produces 50,000CUP 2694fps
Your theory does not hold up. Pressure is determined alot by the type of powder used, the burn rate of that powder, the bullet weight, and case capacity.


And my caliber of choice is 7mm mag, but the 30-06 or .308 are good game calibers as well.


What you have done is not comparing apples to apples. CAse capacity is only a plus if you are using bulky powders. There are optimal powders for both cartridges. You say that 30-06 using 165 gr bullet and H4350 produces 49,400CUP 2938fps, you neglected the most important part How much powder? The 308 will produce higher velocity with less powder too. If you load a 30-06 with 46 grains of IMR 4064 and a 200 grain bullet you will get about 2300 feet per second velocity, If you use the exact same bullet and powder in a 308 and reduce the powder load from 46 to 40.5 grains you will about 10 to 30 FPS increase in bullet speed. The 308 is a much more efficient cartridge. The military did not quit using the 30-06 in favor of the 308 because the 30-06 was a better cartridge. The 308 was the improved modernized version of the 30-06. You know you could put 20 grains of bullseye powder in a 308 or 30-06 and hit 60,000 PSI while only getting a velocity of 1400 FPS, there are optimal powders, and you can find deceptive results if you do not look at optimal powders and loads.

You see I have been reloading for 30 years, and I chronograph all the loads to check for velocity. That leaves me informed beyond what I can find on paper. I also reload thousands of rounds per year.

380Seecamp
05-08-2009, 18:32
RCBS Top 25 Dies For 2005

1. .204 Ruger
2. .30-06 Springfield
3. .223 Rem.
4. .308 Win.
5. .243 Win.
6. .22-250 Rem.
7. .45 ACP
8. .270 Win.
9. .300 Win. Mag.
10. .44 Mag./Special
11. .300 WSM
12. .357 Mag./.38 Special
13. 7mm Rem. Mag.
14. .45 Colt
15. .45-70 Government
16. .25-06
17. 9mm Luger
18. .500 S & W Mag.
19. .270 WSM
20. .30-30 WCF
21. .40 S & W
22. 7mm-08 Rem.
23. .300 Rem. Ultra Mag.
24. .243 WSSM
25. .25 WSSM

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-13803636_ITM

Sorry, I don't have access to more recent data at the moment.

My rifle collection indicates the .30-06 is a fine choice. :supergrin:

357glocker
05-08-2009, 21:39
What you have done is not comparing apples to apples. CAse capacity is only a plus if you are using bulky powders. There are optimal powders for both cartridges. You say that 30-06 using 165 gr bullet and H4350 produces 49,400CUP 2938fps, you neglected the most important part How much powder? The 308 will produce higher velocity with less powder too. If you load a 30-06 with 46 grains of IMR 4064 and a 200 grain bullet you will get about 2300 feet per second velocity, If you use the exact same bullet and powder in a 308 and reduce the powder load from 46 to 40.5 grains you will about 10 to 30 FPS increase in bullet speed. The 308 is a much more efficient cartridge. The military did not quit using the 30-06 in favor of the 308 because the 30-06 was a better cartridge. The 308 was the improved modernized version of the 30-06. You know you could put 20 grains of bullseye powder in a 308 or 30-06 and hit 60,000 PSI while only getting a velocity of 1400 FPS, there are optimal powders, and you can find deceptive results if you do not look at optimal powders and loads.

You see I have been reloading for 30 years, and I chronograph all the loads to check for velocity. That leaves me informed beyond what I can find on paper. I also reload thousands of rounds per year.

I went on what you said, pressure=velocity. I chose some of the most common loads which produce some of the highest pressures. All loads I listed were max listed loads. I reload also and know that pressure does not indicate velocity, as you proved with your bullseye loads. Simply stated you over estimated the .308 to the .30-06. There is absolutey nothing wrong with the .308 and you are very correct in that it is very efficient compared to the .30-06 BUT a .308 will never ballistically match a .30-06. It will come very close hence the efficiency but to argue that a .308 is superior in power and velocity over a .30-06 is wrong.

noway
05-09-2009, 07:31
I went on what you said, pressure=velocity. I chose some of the most common loads which produce some of the highest pressures. All loads I listed were max listed loads. I reload also and know that pressure does not indicate velocity, as you proved with your bullseye loads. Simply stated you over estimated the .308 to the .30-06. There is absolutey nothing wrong with the .308 and you are very correct in that it is very efficient compared to the .30-06 BUT a .308 will never ballistically match a .30-06. It will come very close hence the efficiency but to argue that a .308 is superior in power and velocity over a .30-06 is wrong.

ditto

and I would think a person reloading for 30years and a thousand rounds per year would know this along with the 270win is not more powerful than a 30-06, and that a 30-06 was never designed around blackpowder :crying:

pennlineman
05-09-2009, 10:11
Another for the .30-06. And it is superior to the .308 especially with the heavier bullets. I'm not knocking the .308, The typical deer hit with a 165gr bullet from either would never know the difference. I have both and it is a fine cartridge. But if I were to hunt something that required a 220+ grain bullet the 06 wins hands down.

Varghedne
05-09-2009, 14:01
+1 for 30.06.

LEAD
05-09-2009, 14:11
.729 or 12 gauge.... Bird to Bear

vafish
05-09-2009, 18:19
s.

You see I have been reloading for 30 years, and I chronograph all the loads to check for velocity. That leaves me informed beyond what I can find on paper. I also reload thousands of rounds per year.

Chronograph tells you nothing about the pressure of your hand loads.

Only the velocity you have achieved.

If you are getting more velocity out of the .308 than the .30-06 you are doing one of 2 things. Either you are loading the .308 way over SAAMI recommended pressure levels, or you are loading the .30-06 well below SAAMI recommended pressure levels.

If you load to SAAMI recommended pressure levels (and only proper pressure testing equipment will determine that) the .30-06 will outperform the .308 with every bullet weight, the heavier the bullet, the more the difference.

klt1986
05-09-2009, 21:39
I would like to see some specific loads shadowhunter uses to get all this horsepower from the .308 Winchester!:supergrin:

ithaca_deerslayer
05-11-2009, 07:59
Chronograph tells you nothing about the pressure of your hand loads.

Only the velocity you have achieved.

If you are getting more velocity out of the .308 than the .30-06 you are doing one of 2 things. Either you are loading the .308 way over SAAMI recommended pressure levels, or you are loading the .30-06 well below SAAMI recommended pressure levels.

If you load to SAAMI recommended pressure levels (and only proper pressure testing equipment will determine that) the .30-06 will outperform the .308 with every bullet weight, the heavier the bullet, the more the difference.

I think vafish has figured it out.

Sounds like shadowhunter may be loading the .308 and the .30-06 with the same amount of powder, using the chronograph, and then determing that the .308 has greater velocity for any bullet weight.

marshallblaine02
05-11-2009, 08:03
7mm WSM

vafish
05-11-2009, 10:12
I think vafish has figured it out.

Sounds like shadowhunter may be loading the .308 and the .30-06 with the same amount of powder, using the chronograph, and then determing that the .308 has greater velocity for any bullet weight.


It may not be that simple, then again it may.

If you look at the links I listed above there are hundreds of various loads for the .308 and .30-06. If you pick through them carefully you can find some maximum pressure loads for the .308 that out perform maximum pressure loads for the .30-06 depending upon what powders you use. But, overall the .30-06 outperforms the .308.

If Shadowhunter really has been hand loading for 30+ years he knows the truth and is just jerking our chain.

Tommy Gun
05-20-2009, 16:56
3006!

rfb45colt
06-01-2009, 14:11
I reload both the .308 & .30-06 (.243, .280, & .45-70 also)... but I'm not jumping into the ballistics argument. To me, one fact in the OPs post stands out... it's a kid's first rifle. I think a main consideration in this scenario has to be recoil. If a .30-06 is gonna be too much recoil, it will lead to flinching... which will result in poor accuracy. Although I think the best all-around caliber is the .30-06 (or a derivitive of it, such as the .25-06 or .280) I'd go with something with less recoil, like the .308 "family" (.243, .260, 7mm-08), or the 7X57 or 6.5X55 mausers.

As for which rifle? If the caliber chosen is available, the Savage 110 with accu-trigger would be my 1st choice.

Brass Nazi
06-19-2009, 19:44
I am a fan of the .270 but the 30-06 is IMO the most versatile cartridge available and is the best all around.

sourdough44
07-04-2009, 20:31
Put me down for a 308.

vafish
07-05-2009, 07:03
I reload both the .308 & .30-06 (.243, .280, & .45-70 also)... but I'm not jumping into the ballistics argument. To me, one fact in the OPs post stands out... it's a kid's first rifle. I think a main consideration in this scenario has to be recoil. If a .30-06 is gonna be too much recoil, it will lead to flinching... which will result in poor accuracy. Although I think the best all-around caliber is the .30-06 (or a derivitive of it, such as the .25-06 or .280) I'd go with something with less recoil, like the .308 "family" (.243, .260, 7mm-08), or the 7X57 or 6.5X55 mausers.

As for which rifle? If the caliber chosen is available, the Savage 110 with accu-trigger would be my 1st choice.

Well Havensal never did tell us the age or size of his friends son.

I have friends with sons my same age (almost 45).

I myself have 2 sons, one is 16 and an inch taller than me. He has no problem shooting 12 ga with 3" magnums, .500 S+W, and so far any rifle I've put in his hands. He loves the challenge of more recoil. My other son just turned 13, he's very small for his age, he doesn't like the recoil of the .30-06. But I did try him on some of the Remington Managed Recoil loads in the .30-06, he shot those just fine. He has also shot my .300 Savage and doesn't mind that. I'm going to try my .300 Savage handload in the .30-06 and see how it shoots.

Without knowing more information on the age/size of the person looking for a new rifle it's tough to make recommendations.

rfb45colt, the second sentence in bold is excellent advice for a new rifle shooter. If you can't shoot it well it doesn't matter how versatile it is.


It's been a couple months since this thread was started, maybe Havensal will jump back in here and tell us what his friends son ended up buying.

TScottW99
07-06-2009, 11:56
For predators, varmints, deer and bear... .280remington. In my opion it is the best of the .270 and 30-06. 160 grain for bear, 140 for deer and shoot the vermin with what ever you want.

With that said I also hunt the above with a .308 and soon to be a 25-06, though I will leave the bear shooting to the 7mm or .308.

finz50
07-17-2009, 11:19
30.06 if you're looking at a rifle....but I recommend a shotgun with an extra rifled slug barrel....use the slug barrel for deer/bears (my rifled barrel w/sabot slugs can reach 'em up to 200 yards) and use shot shells for everything else.