Help with flinch! [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Help with flinch!


Glockenspiel 19
06-29-2009, 20:06
Hello Everyone!
I'm new to Glock Talk and to shooting as well. I bought a Glock 19 last month and my first two days shooting I did pretty well- pretty good grouping, only missed the target two times. Well I went for my third time just a couple days ago and I didn't hit the target once. It seems that I am flinching (pulling back and down) as I pull the trigger.
Does anyone have any advice as to how to get over this problem? I'm not afraid of the noise and I don't even realize I'm doing it.
Any advice would be great!
Thanks,
Kim:wavey:

POLARBEAR
06-30-2009, 03:31
Congratulations on your purchase. Do you have any experienced pistol shooters you can go to the range with? Try to get help/training from a NRA certified instructor. Take "range experts" advice with several grains of salt. Flinching problem can be solved on your own but is very tedious! If you can get help from someone you trust, then do so by all means. I had the same problem (only with a Browning Hi-Power MK III 9mm) myself and the following is the process I took to break it: (1) Practice dry firing at the range and/or home. Double and triple check to be sure that the chamber is empty and magazine and ammo are kept well away. When you are sure your chamber is empty, check it again (especially when you dry fire practice at home)!!! This being said, be sure of your backstop and never let the muzzle of your pistol point at anything you are not willing to destroy!!! With the pistol pointed down range, obtain your sight picture, place your finger on the trigger and then slowly press the trigger to the rear while doing your best to keep your sight picture from changing/wobbling (exercising your arms by lifting and curling soup cans, and exercising your hand and fingers with grip exercisers will help with this). You will have to manually cycle your slide for each pull of the trigger. You should be able to do this comfortably before introducing ammo into the mix. (2) Purchase a set of snap caps (dummy/function testing rounds) and bring them with you to the range. (3) If you have help, have your person randomly load your magazine with either one live round or one dummy round. If you are by yourself, load one magazine with a live round and one with a dummy. (4) Place both magazines in a bag, withdraw one magazine and load your pistol w/o looking at the round. The point is to load your gun in such a way that you will not know whether or not he gun is going to fire when you press the trigger. (5) Obtain your sight picture and concentrate on holding it still as you slowly press the trigger. If the gun fires, you can check to see if you hit what you were aiming at. If the gun goes click, did you see your sights dip down as the striker was released? (6) Repeat this process, concentrate on keeping that sight picture nice and steady as you press the trigger (don't rush or jerk the trigger when firing). Repeat until you do not see your sights move radically when you press the trigger on a dummy round. (7) When you can consistently press the trigger on a dummy round w/o seeing a change in your sight picture, move up to five rounds. Randomly load a mix of dummy and live round in any combination of five (I had an evil friend who would load some magazines with all five live rounds or all five dummy rounds). (8) Repeat process of obtaining and keeping that nice steady sight picture for each trigger press. When you can do this consistently, repeat the process with ten rounds and then finally with the whole magazine. Don't be discouraged, don't give up, and don't let the "range experts" get you down. As for accuracy, aim at the same spot on your target and fire five rounds w/o trying to correct your shot placement for each round. The point is to learn to obtain and utilize a consistent sight picture. If you are using your sight picture the same each time, a group (tight is the best) should form. Once you can consistently shoot tight groups (no matter where they are in relation to your point of aim) then you can see about adjusting your sights if required. Hope this helps and I am sorry about this message being so long. I can be rather long winded. I prefer to teach by example rather than trying to explain the process.:cool:

Glockenspiel 19
06-30-2009, 06:43
Wow! I really appreciate your detailed answer. Like I said, I am new at this and I welcome info from experienced people. I'm going to print out your advice and try out your ideas. I really am eager to be a good shooter.
What's your opinion on getting a .22 conversion kit for my Glock so I can practice cheaply? I see that Advantage Arms sells one for around $250. I'm not sure if that will help, or if it will just delay my getting used to shooting 9mm.
Well, thanks again for your reply!

POLARBEAR
06-30-2009, 09:13
No problem, glad to be of some help! I commend you for your enthusiasm and eagerness to learn. I am rather dismayed :shocked: that others did not respond to your request for help. I have been a handgun owner and shooter since 10/89. I was the UC Davis Rifle and Pistol Club President from 1990-1993, USAF, have and continue to train /introduce new people to our sport, and used to compete in local IPSC, IDPA, and 3-Gun matches (had to stop matches :crying: because time is currently taken up by 5 year old daughter and 7 year old Cub Scout son and wifes activities). Currenly own and shoot the following handguns: G19 9mm, G26 9mm, G32 .357 Sig, G33 .357 Sig, G20 10mm, Browning Hi-Power MK III 9mm (x2), Browning Buck Mark .22lr (x2), Beretta 92 FS 9mm (x2), and Kimber Gold Combat and GC II (both in .45 ACP). This being said, you would be right to conclude that I have some amount of experience with this subject. However, let me be the first to tell you experience is great but proper training cannot be beat. When the kids are older, the whole family will train at one ore more of the premier shooting schools (Front Sight, Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, etc.). Never trust anyone who thinks that he/she is an expert and has nothing more to learn. Listen to the advice of others while remembering to take it with a grain of salt. If their advice sounds hinky and their reasoning seems illogical, thank them and walk away. :upeyes:

.22lr conversion units - They are a good investment. No drawbacks that I know of. Lots more practice for the same amount of money.:cool: Training regimen remains the same whether you shoot center or rimfire rounds. Obtain and hold a steady sight picture throughout the trigger press process. Shoot for tight groups. I don't have any personal experience with either Advantage Arms or Ciener .22lr conversion units for Glocks. I have a Wilson Combat conversion unit for my Kimber .45 ACPs that I like. I have two Browning Buckmark .22lr pistols which I use to train new shooters. As for delaying progress with the 9mm, I just don't realistically see that as a problem. Top competitive shooters dry fire practice all the time in addition to firing live rounds. I even remember reading of a Japanese citizen who routinely took high honors in USA national shooting competitions (can't remember if it was IPSC or Bianchi/Steel Challenge Matches) with a .45 ACP pistol that he only kept and used in the USA for the few weeks that he was on vacation. Japan bans all personal firearms ownership, so this guy would just practice at home with realistic AirSoft guns (toys). Point being, constant realistic practice and mastery of the basics leads to top performance. Good Luck! :cool:

KT

p.s.,
It was my daughter's idea to use all the emoticons in this message.

Glockenspiel 19
06-30-2009, 14:53
:wavey:Thanks for your quick and helpful reply. I'm looking forward to getting to the range soon for some more practice. I'm also going to seriously look into getting the .22 conversion kit. Tell your daughter I like her emoticons!:dancing:
:wave:

Buki192327
06-30-2009, 19:26
You stated, that you are not afraid of the noise. Are you using hearing protection? If not, get some good hearing protection. If you are using hearing protection, look for some better hearing protections

Consciously, you may not be afraid of the noise. However the subconscious, can be a different matter. The subconscious mind, is saying, OH NO, she is going to pull that thing again, and there will be that loud noise, NO, NO.

Past history, has shown that noise and recoil, are the biggest reasons, people develop a flinch, with handguns. With rifles and shotguns, the reason is noise, recoil, and the gun not fitting properly, and the stock smacking them in the face.

Good luck. :wavey:

Glockenspiel 19
07-01-2009, 06:36
I probably am afraid of the noise and I just don't realize it like you said. I do have ear protection but maybe I should double up and see if that helps.
Thanks so much for taking the time to give your advice. I appreciate it!
:cool:

Mrs.Cicero
07-01-2009, 13:02
Do everything listed above by Polarbear, etc. The ball&dummy drill described by Polarbear is really the best way to identify and fix a flinch... that's why there were so few other answers...:wavey:

Mrs.C

Glockenspiel 19
07-01-2009, 16:39
:cool:Thanks! I'm so glad I found this site. I've already learned so much and it seems it will be a great place to get answers for the many more questions I'm sure I'll end up having.

POLARBEAR
07-02-2009, 23:39
:wavey:Thanks for your quick and helpful reply. I'm looking forward to getting to the range soon for some more practice. I'm also going to seriously look into getting the .22 conversion kit. Tell your daughter I like her emoticons!:dancing:
:wave:

You are quite welcome. Hope advice works . Drop us (daughter and I) a line sometime to let us know how this works out for you.:snoopy:

KT and Angeline (aka. Gin:snoopy:)

Glockenspiel 19
07-03-2009, 08:39
I will let you and your daughter know how I do after trying out your advice. I know, since I'm new, that it will take some time for me to correct my problem but I am ready to do what it takes. I'm a Kindergarten teacher so I'm off for most of the summer so hopefully I will get in some shooting practice.
Thank you so much !:thumbsup:

Happy Fourth of July (Independence Day)!:patriot::grill:

EJP
07-05-2009, 04:23
Just a word of warning before you blow your money on a conversion kit: I have the same flinching problem you described and bought a .22 conversion to fix it.
It didn't really help: never ever flinched when using the .22 (tight group right where I aim at) but as soon as i take the 9mm upper everything is back in the lower left...

Now, I won't discourage you of buying a conversion, as I see them as valuable addition to the glock but after my experiment I'm convinced that spending the money on ammo and dummy-rounds would have been more beneficial.

Glockenspiel 19
07-05-2009, 13:10
:cool:Thanks for your advice! It's great to hear from someone with experience! I appreciate it!

STE2
07-05-2009, 17:47
I had the same problem you have until my husband took me to the range after we were married. One of the things he did for me that seemed to really help was to have me hold the pistol and close my eyes and he would pull the trigger for me. After doing this with him for about an hour it went away, I could not believe it really helped.

He had me shoot a 44 mag right after that and I didn't flinch at all, I could of killed him for making me shoot that right after shooting a 380.

mythaeus
07-06-2009, 10:41
Glock trigger and trigger technique are likely your primary problems. Glock trigger has a 2-stage feel where you meet one resistance point before the full squeeze. This is problematic for first time (Glock) shooters. What I generally tell the shooter is to think of it as a auto-focus on a camera, you press the shutter button lightly until you see the green AF light comes on, then press all the way through. Same idea here. Squeeze the trigger until you feel the resistance point while pointing at the target, focus on target (slight pause), THEN squeeze the trigger all the way through. It will also help if you keep holding down the trigger until AFTER the bang has gone by for 1 or 2 seconds. This prevents any sort of yanking on the trigger. You only need to do the 1 to 2 seconds hold until you stop flinching.

Good luck,
Al

Glockenspiel 19
07-06-2009, 16:58
:cool:Wow! I'm so happy with all the great advice I've been given. I have to get out to the range to try out the suggestions.

Thanks everyone! :wavey:
Kim

GlocksterPaulie
07-06-2009, 17:02
Just to clear things up, my wife begged me to shoot the 44.

Paulie:rofl:

Glockenspiel 19
07-06-2009, 17:33
:)Yeah..., something about that doesn't add up. Maybe it was the "I could have killed him" part.

Be nice to your wife!

mythaeus
07-06-2009, 19:04
Just got around to reading some of the replies so I thought I'd add a few additional comments.

I don't think it's a huge problem that you're having that is going to be tedious to solve. I firmly believe it your techniques and the lack of familiarity with your gun. This is my all-time favorite techniques video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48 . It won't explain the Glock 2-stage trigger thing, but it has all the elements necessary to solidify consistent techniques.

As for the 22LR and conversion kit idea. I have some mix feelings about it. First of all, it's IMPOSSIBLE to get a kit for your G19 right now anywhere. AA is back ordered 6 months and the existing kits are in extremely high demand. This means that you will not get away with spending less that $300 for a kit. I'm actually looking for an AA kit for my G26 or my G19, whichever one I can find first. At this cost, you could get a whole 22LR pistol. The disadvantage there is that you are not getting the same physical feel as if you were getting a conversion kit.

Another problem I have with a conversion kit is that it can be picky about ammo. You'll have to find 22LR that your kit likes. I had an AA kit for my 1911 which will take 3 out of 6 types of 22LR ammo that I own. I have since sold it and just got a Kimber kit, which I believe is made for Kimber by Ciener. THAT kit ate everything I fed to it, except I haven't tried Federal ammo yet since the instruction explicitly says to avoid.

While with a kit your gun will feel physically the same, functionally, the recoil is a HUGE difference. My wife and have recently discovered that this actually caused our wrists to hurt a lot more when shooting standard ammo after shooting the kit. What happened was that because there was no recoil, we neglected to tighten our grips and wrists. We also don't train the stamina of our grips with 22LR, so when comes the real thing, we hurt ourselves and sometimes were surprised by the recoil.

I also have a 22LR kit for my AR's and a SIG Mosquito (22LR DA/SA, safety + decocker). The change over from 22LR to full-fledged .223/5.56 does seem to be as drastic as in the 1911. The SIG Mosquito would only feed CCI Mini-mag ammo.

I guess my reservation with 22LR kit/gun is that they WILL have an impact on your habit and techniques if you don't understand the short-comings as I listed. Use a kit or 22LR gun to practice your stance, grips, sight alignment, breathing, and trigger squeeze, but you will never be able to practice wrist control and muzzle/recoil control with these. Still, I'm just not convinced that it's good thing to start on 22LR without at least some more additional exposure to real/higher/original caliber; and, may even add to your flinching problem transitioning from BB gun feel to real recoil feel as you may anticipate recoil even more.

Al
PS: I'm not sure where in NJ you are, but if you happen by Philly, drop me a PM. I'll be glad to take you to the range for some pointers. I'm not an expert my any means, but I have learned a thing or two from others...and youtube. :supergrin:

POLARBEAR
07-07-2009, 03:27
Glock trigger and trigger technique are likely your primary problems. Glock trigger has a 2-stage feel where you meet one resistance point before the full squeeze. This is problematic for first time (Glock) shooters. What I generally tell the shooter is to think of it as a auto-focus on a camera, you press the shutter button lightly until you see the green AF light comes on, then press all the way through. Same idea here. Squeeze the trigger until you feel the resistance point while pointing at the target, focus on target (slight pause), THEN squeeze the trigger all the way through. It will also help if you keep holding down the trigger until AFTER the bang has gone by for 1 or 2 seconds. This prevents any sort of yanking on the trigger. You only need to do the 1 to 2 seconds hold until you stop flinching.

Good luck,
Al

Please explain how holding the trigger back 1-2 seconds AFTER the round has been fired will affect flinch. As I understand it, flinch occurs at the moment of firing not after. If you are already flinching/yanking on the trigger, that movement has completed itself by the time you hear the bang. When a person with a flinch drops the hammer/releases the striker on a dummy round, you see the muzzle dip at the completion of the trigger press. Holding the trigger back for the 1-2 seconds just interferes with the trigger reset which will create problems when you need to shoot fast and accurate as in competition or SD situation.

mythaeus
07-07-2009, 05:13
Please explain how holding the trigger back 1-2 seconds AFTER the round has been fired will affect flinch. As I understand it, flinch occurs at the moment of firing not after. If you are already flinching/yanking on the trigger, that movement has completed itself by the time you hear the bang. When a person with a flinch drops the hammer/releases the striker on a dummy round, you see the muzzle dip at the completion of the trigger press. Holding the trigger back for the 1-2 seconds just interferes with the trigger reset which will create problems when you need to shoot fast and accurate as in competition or SD situation.

If the shooter keeps in mind that she has to to hold the trigger through afterwards, it forces full trigger follow through. I also said that it helps prevent yanking on the trigger, which may or may not be a part of flinching since flinching is different for different persons (some may close their eyes). It doesn't hurt to ensure full trigger follow through to eliminate yanking. As stated, I only recommended this until flinching is resolved, not a permanent practice.

Al

POLARBEAR
07-07-2009, 07:22
Just got around to reading some of the replies so I thought I'd add a few additional comments.

I don't think it's a huge problem that you're having that is going to be tedious to solve. I firmly believe it your techniques and the lack of familiarity with your gun. This is my all-time favorite techniques video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48 . It won't explain the Glock 2-stage trigger thing, but it has all the elements necessary to solidify consistent techniques.

As for the 22LR and conversion kit idea. I have some mix feelings about it. First of all, it's IMPOSSIBLE to get a kit for your G19 right now anywhere. AA is back ordered 6 months and the existing kits are in extremely high demand. This means that you will not get away with spending less that $300 for a kit. I'm actually looking for an AA kit for my G26 or my G19, whichever one I can find first. At this cost, you could get a whole 22LR pistol. The disadvantage there is that you are not getting the same physical feel as if you were getting a conversion kit.

Another problem I have with a conversion kit is that it can be picky about ammo. You'll have to find 22LR that your kit likes. I had an AA kit for my 1911 which will take 3 out of 6 types of 22LR ammo that I own. I have since sold it and just got a Kimber kit, which I believe is made for Kimber by Ciener. THAT kit ate everything I fed to it, except I haven't tried Federal ammo yet since the instruction explicitly says to avoid.

While with a kit your gun will feel physically the same, functionally, the recoil is a HUGE difference. My wife and have recently discovered that this actually caused our wrists to hurt a lot more when shooting standard ammo after shooting the kit. What happened was that because there was no recoil, we neglected to tighten our grips and wrists. We also don't train the stamina of our grips with 22LR, so when comes the real thing, we hurt ourselves and sometimes were surprised by the recoil.

I also have a 22LR kit for my AR's and a SIG Mosquito (22LR DA/SA, safety + decocker). The change over from 22LR to full-fledged .223/5.56 does seem to be as drastic as in the 1911. The SIG Mosquito would only feed CCI Mini-mag ammo.

I guess my reservation with 22LR kit/gun is that they WILL have an impact on your habit and techniques if you don't understand the short-comings as I listed. Use a kit or 22LR gun to practice your stance, grips, sight alignment, breathing, and trigger squeeze, but you will never be able to practice wrist control and muzzle/recoil control with these. Still, I'm just not convinced that it's good thing to start on 22LR without at least some more additional exposure to real/higher/original caliber; and, may even add to your flinching problem transitioning from BB gun feel to real recoil feel as you may anticipate recoil even more.

Al
PS: I'm not sure where in NJ you are, but if you happen by Philly, drop me a PM. I'll be glad to take you to the range for some pointers. I'm not an expert my any means, but I have learned a thing or two from others...and youtube. :supergrin:


.22lr kit should be used to practice all the basics involved in shooting a firearm accurately while maintaining the same grip and trigger pull. The lack of recoil should allow the shooter to concentrate on the sight alignment and trigger press. Mastery of/concentration on sight alignment and the trigger press will allow the shooter to place the shot accurately regardless of firearm caliber as attention is diverted away from recoil or anticipation thereof. Thus flinching should decrease rather than increase. Grip/wrist should not be slack when firing a .22lr and then tense when firing a larger caliber. The grip should be the same (like a firm handshake), and the wrist should be locked whether firing .22lr, 9mm, .357sig, .45acp, .357mag or hot 10mm. Wrist should not be allowed to snap up and down with recoil as this will result in the pain mentioned. Failure to lock wrist while firing a pistol can lead to malfunctions (stove pipe jams, etc.) associated with "limp wristing". Recoil should be absorbed more by/distributed to the arm and shoulder (as well as the web and palm of the hand). In the case of modern pistol craft (two handed shooting stances such as weaver or isosceles), muzzle flip and recoil are controlled by the isometric/dynamic tension of both arms and aggressive forward lean (shoulders hunched forward) of the stance. Recoil control becomes more important as successive/follow up shots are required to be placed quickly and accurately as in the case of controlled pairs, double taps, hammers, etc... Glockenspiel 19 is new to shooting and thus is most likely concentrating on firing single well aimed shots. .22lr is more than adequate for this task.

Right handed (modified) weaver stance - From neutral (feet together), left foot takes one step forward and right foot turns slightly right off centerline (alternatively, left foot remains planted while right foot steps back and turn slight right off centerline). Right hand (with firm grip and locked wrist) punches straight forward and stops with right elbow slightly bent. Left hand fingers wrap around right hand fingers under the trigger guard while the left palm presses right against the pistol's grip. Left thumb can either clamp down on right, or (in the case of high thumb grip) lay against pistol frame in line with barrel as right thumb comes down on top (also in line with the barrel). Left arm bends w/elbow out and then pulls back. Shoulders roll forward and head comes down a bit as sights are acquired. Effect is that right hand pushes pistol forward while left hand pulls pistol back creating isometric tension. Rearward pull of left hand fingers pulls muzzle down thus controlling muzzle flip, and recoil is absorbed and distributed to both the arms and shoulders.

:snoopy::usaf:

POLARBEAR
07-07-2009, 07:24
If the shooter keeps in mind that she has to to hold the trigger through afterwards, it forces full trigger follow through. I also said that it helps prevent yanking on the trigger, which may or may not be a part of flinching since flinching is different for different persons (some may close their eyes). It doesn't hurt to ensure full trigger follow through to eliminate yanking. As stated, I only recommended this until flinching is resolved, not a permanent practice.

Al

OK gotcha. , more about follow through. Thanks.

mythaeus
07-07-2009, 07:32
.22lr kit should be used to practice all the basics involved in shooting a firearm accurately while maintaining the same grip and trigger pull. The lack of recoil should allow the shooter to concentrate on the sight alignment and trigger press. Mastery of/concentration on sight alignment and the trigger press will allow the shooter to place the shot accurately regardless of firearm caliber as attention is diverted away from recoil or anticipation thereof. Thus flinching should decrease rather than increase. Grip/wrist should not be slack when firing a .22lr and then tense when firing a larger caliber. The grip should be the same (like a firm handshake), and the wrist should be locked whether firing .22lr, 9mm, .357sig, .45acp, .357mag or hot 10mm. Wrist should not be allowed to snap up and down with recoil as this will result in the pain mentioned. Failure to lock wrist while firing a pistol can lead to malfunctions (stove pipe jams, etc.) associated with "limp wristing". Recoil should be absorbed more by/distributed to the arm and shoulder (as well as the web and palm of the hand). In the case of modern pistol craft (two handed shooting stances such as weaver or isosceles), muzzle flip and recoil are controlled by the isometric/dynamic tension of both arms and aggressive forward lean (shoulders hunched forward) of the stance. Recoil control becomes more important as successive/follow up shots are required to be placed quickly and accurately as in the case of controlled pairs, double taps, hammers, etc... Glockenspiel 19 is new to shooting and thus is most likely concentrating on firing single well aimed shots. .22lr is more than adequate for this task.

Right handed (modified) weaver stance - From neutral (feet together), left foot takes one step forward and right foot turns slightly right off centerline (alternatively, left foot remains planted while right foot steps back and turn slight right off centerline). Right hand (with firm grip and locked wrist) punches straight forward and stops with right elbow slightly bent. Left hand fingers wrap around right hand fingers under the trigger guard while the left palm presses right against the pistol's grip. Left thumb can either clamp down on right, or (in the case of high thumb grip) lay against pistol frame in line with barrel as right thumb comes down on top (also in line with the barrel). Left arm bends w/elbow out and then pulls back. Shoulders roll forward and head comes down a bit as sights are acquired. Effect is that right hand pushes pistol forward while left hand pulls pistol back creating isometric tension. Rearward pull of left hand fingers pulls muzzle down thus controlling muzzle flip, and recoil is absorbed and distributed to both the arms and shoulders.

:snoopy::usaf:

Very well explained! I think owning 22LR (kit or otherwise) is a MUST, I just have mixed feelings about a MUST right away because of the factors I mentioned. The wrist thing is very important in transitioning from 22LR to higher calibers. I think it should be consistent for both actually. I guess the caution there is either to tighten your wrist regardless of caliber or really, really remember that you're shooting something bigger. I'd prefer the former, but/because I do forget after shooting 22LR for a while. :D

Al

Glockenspiel 19
07-07-2009, 08:26
I have a lot of detailed info to print out from both of you. Thank you both very much!
I probably am going to try to order the conversion kit and since Al mentioned it will probably be on backorder anyway I can continue practicing with 9mm. I'm sure I could get a .22 pistol for around the same price but I really want to practice with the way my Glock feels. If I was going to purchase something else right now it might be a rifle since that's a completely different feel.
Still haven't been to the range yet (I'm kind of shy going by myself- I know that's silly!) but I have my target guy papers hung up on my closet door in my bedroom and I practice dry firing at them all the time.:cool:

Thanks again for all your helpful advice! :wavey:

Kim

ithaca_deerslayer
07-07-2009, 10:36
.... Mastery of/concentration on sight alignment and the trigger press will allow the shooter to place the shot accurately regardless of firearm caliber as attention is diverted away from recoil or anticipation thereof. Thus flinching should decrease rather than increase. Grip/wrist should not be slack when firing a .22lr and then tense when firing a larger caliber. The grip should be the same (like a firm handshake), and the wrist should be locked whether firing .22lr, 9mm, .357sig, .45acp, .357mag or hot 10mm. Wrist should not be allowed to snap up and down with recoil as this will result in the pain mentioned. Failure to lock wrist while firing a pistol can lead to malfunctions (stove pipe jams, etc.) associated with "limp wristing". Recoil should be absorbed more by/distributed to the arm and shoulder (as well as the web and palm of the hand). In the case of modern pistol craft (two handed shooting stances such as weaver or isosceles), muzzle flip and recoil are controlled by the isometric/dynamic tension of both arms and aggressive forward lean (shoulders hunched forward) of the stance. Recoil control becomes more important as successive/follow up shots are required to be placed quickly and accurately as in the case of controlled pairs, double taps, hammers, etc... Glockenspiel 19 is new to shooting and thus is most likely concentrating on firing single well aimed shots. .

I quoted all that above, because I don't want anything I say to negate it. However, I will take a completely different path.

Shooting is about accepting the recoil. Whatever you are shooting, you mentally accept the recoil in a zen-like way. The gun is going to go BOOM, and the gun is going to RECOIL. Don't try to stop either of those two things, but let them happen. (Technique, as quoted above, controls recoil; but I'm talking about the mental aspect of accepting that recoil happens).

So, slow everything down, loosen every step of the process, relax as much as you can (without dropping the gun or loosing control of it). Focus on sight picture. Your eye focuses on the front sight, and then you align the rear sights to that, and you put that whole sight picture on the target. The sight picture wavers around, and you steady a bit, but you cannot eliminate the wavering. But lets assume you have the sights aligned well, the same way each time, and that your sights are mostly steady, and on target, even as they waver around, in an arc of motion, sometimes moving in a figure 8.

Now, slowly, very slowly, squeeze the trigger. Squeeze the trigger so slow, that you don't know when the gun will actually fire and go BOOM. The point at which the gun goes BOOM should be a surprise to you. Let's suppose it takes you 3 seconds to completely and slowly squeeze the trigger. The gun might go BOOM 2.7 seconds into your squeeze, or 2.1 seconds, but you don't know exactly where. Don't try to guess where the BOOM will happen, just slowly squeeze the trigger, and let the BOOM be a surprise.

When it does go BOOM, it will be loud, and the gun will RECOIL, but don't worry about either of those things. Just stay focused on your sight picture, trying to hold it on target (one mental thought process), and slowly squeezing the trigger (another, completely separate mental thought process).

Accuracy problems happen when you try to time when the gun goes BOOM. For example, your sight picture is wavering around the target in an arc of motion. If you try to pick the exact moment that your sight picture seems on target, and suddenly pull the trigger then, you will likely have bad shots. Instead, let your sight picture waver around, reasonably on target, in an arc of motion that you mentally accept. And then, in a completely different thought process, slowly squeeze the trigger, without trying to time exactly when the gun goes BOOM. Just let it the gun go BOOM whenever your slowly moving trigger finger just happens to get past that "break" point at which the gun fires.

After doing what I describe above a few times, get either a friend, or a revolver. If with a friend, have the friend give the pistol to you without telling you whether there is a round in the chamber or not. You go through all the steps above, and now you really don't know whether the gun will go BOOM or not. If the gun goes "click", did your sight picture stay on target? You will feel silly if you hear the "click" and see your sight picture jerking off the target. Keep doing that, for many shots. Some will go BOOM, and some will go "click". Focus on holding your sight picture, even when the gun goes "click".

If you have a revolver, or if you can borrow one, you can load a couple rounds staggered in the cylinder, spin the cylinder without looking at it, and then shoot. Will the revolver go "click" or BOOM! And if it goes "click", what happened to your sight picture?

What you will learn by this technique (of not knowing if there is a round in the chamber), is that your hold, the trigger squeeze, and the way you keep your sight picture on target, should not change whether the gun goes BOOM or "click". (Of course, if it goes BOOM, then the gun will recoil the sight picture off the target, but what you are trying to do is have everything steady and relaxed, the same as if it just went "click").

ithaca_deerslayer
07-07-2009, 11:04
Oh, I should add that my wife used to put diggers into the dirt; because she was trying to brace against the recoil and anticipating when the BOOM was going to occur. Target would be 10 yards away, chest high, and some shots were going into the dirt in front of the target.

She had shot rifles occassionally when she was younger, but was new to handguns. Sometimes, she could shoot really accurately, but other times was pushing dirt diggers.

I can't say that my advice and techniques alone helped her, but with that, and more practise, and going to shoot on her own, she no longer does dirt diggers.

I kid you not, she puts all 5 shots out of her .38 snubbie into a fist sized group at 10 yards, double action. How did she go from dirt diggers to that? And she can slow-fire that small group farther out than 10 yards.

I love going to the range with her, because 2 things make all the guys think she won't hit the side of a barn:
1. She's shooting her snubbie (which most people have trouble shooting accurately).
2. She's a woman.

And then when her groups are tighter than the guys with their 1911's, their jaws just drop. :rofl:

POLARBEAR
07-07-2009, 11:11
Very well explained! I think owning 22LR (kit or otherwise) is a MUST, I just have mixed feelings about a MUST right away because of the factors I mentioned. The wrist thing is very important in transitioning from 22LR to higher calibers. I think it should be consistent for both actually. I guess the caution there is either to tighten your wrist regardless of caliber or really, really remember that you're shooting something bigger. I'd prefer the former, but/because I do forget after shooting 22LR for a while. :D

Al

Once again, thank you for the perspective and sorry for my long windedness! I did say that I prefer to teach by example rather than explain didn't I? ;)

:snoopy::usaf:

Glockenspiel 19
07-07-2009, 11:18
Thanks ithaca_deerslayer! Your whole "zen" thing was making me feel like I was at yoga class. Now I'm all relaxed and in my "happy place"! :cool:
Oh, and that's great about your wife.

I can't express this enough- I am so appreciative of all the people who took time to reply with their experienced advice. :hearts:

ithaca_deerslayer
07-07-2009, 11:31
Thanks ithaca_deerslayer! Your whole "zen" thing was making me feel like I was at yoga class. Now I'm all relaxed and in my "happy place"! :cool:
Oh, and that's great about your wife.

I can't express this enough- I am so appreciative of all the people who took time to reply with their experienced advice. :hearts:

Also, take a look at this thread.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1083602

He's got some videos of his daughter shooting. The thread is about improving her shooting, but she's not too bad as is. It might be useful to look at, just for a realistic comparison between how she is shooting and how you are shooting.

In the last video,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRLVRwJJtcQ&feature=PlayList&p=D3FCFC58688EFD85&index=6
You can see her flinch on the last shot (a dummy round, called a snapcap), as she pushes the muzzle down. This is similar to having a friend hand you a pistol, and you don't know if a round is chambered or not (a friend who knows guns, and is safe, and neither of you get the gun pointed at you). But loading a snapcap first into the magazine so it is the last round you "fire" is a good idea too! Accomplishes the same thing. :)

POLARBEAR
07-07-2009, 12:32
I quoted all that above, because I don't want anything I say to negate it. However, I will take a completely different path.

Shooting is about accepting the recoil. Whatever you are shooting, you mentally accept the recoil in a zen-like way. The gun is going to go BOOM, and the gun is going to RECOIL. Don't try to stop either of those two things, but let them happen. (Technique, as quoted above, controls recoil; but I'm talking about the mental aspect of accepting that recoil happens).

So, slow everything down, loosen every step of the process, relax as much as you can (without dropping the gun or loosing control of it). Focus on sight picture. Your eye focuses on the front sight, and then you align the rear sights to that, and you put that whole sight picture on the target. The sight picture wavers around, and you steady a bit, but you cannot eliminate the wavering. But lets assume you have the sights aligned well, the same way each time, and that your sights are mostly steady, and on target, even as they waver around, in an arc of motion, sometimes moving in a figure 8.

Now, slowly, very slowly, squeeze the trigger. Squeeze the trigger so slow, that you don't know when the gun will actually fire and go BOOM. The point at which the gun goes BOOM should be a surprise to you. Let's suppose it takes you 3 seconds to completely and slowly squeeze the trigger. The gun might go BOOM 2.7 seconds into your squeeze, or 2.1 seconds, but you don't know exactly where. Don't try to guess where the BOOM will happen, just slowly squeeze the trigger, and let the BOOM be a surprise.

When it does go BOOM, it will be loud, and the gun will RECOIL, but don't worry about either of those things. Just stay focused on your sight picture, trying to hold it on target (one mental thought process), and slowly squeezing the trigger (another, completely separate mental thought process).

Accuracy problems happen when you try to time when the gun goes BOOM. For example, your sight picture is wavering around the target in an arc of motion. If you try to pick the exact moment that your sight picture seems on target, and suddenly pull the trigger then, you will likely have bad shots. Instead, let your sight picture waver around, reasonably on target, in an arc of motion that you mentally accept. And then, in a completely different thought process, slowly squeeze the trigger, without trying to time exactly when the gun goes BOOM. Just let it the gun go BOOM whenever your slowly moving trigger finger just happens to get past that "break" point at which the gun fires.

After doing what I describe above a few times, get either a friend, or a revolver. If with a friend, have the friend give the pistol to you without telling you whether there is a round in the chamber or not. You go through all the steps above, and now you really don't know whether the gun will go BOOM or not. If the gun goes "click", did your sight picture stay on target? You will feel silly if you hear the "click" and see your sight picture jerking off the target. Keep doing that, for many shots. Some will go BOOM, and some will go "click". Focus on holding your sight picture, even when the gun goes "click".

If you have a revolver, or if you can borrow one, you can load a couple rounds staggered in the cylinder, spin the cylinder without looking at it, and then shoot. Will the revolver go "click" or BOOM! And if it goes "click", what happened to your sight picture?

What you will learn by this technique (of not knowing if there is a round in the chamber), is that your hold, the trigger squeeze, and the way you keep your sight picture on target, should not change whether the gun goes BOOM or "click". (Of course, if it goes BOOM, then the gun will recoil the sight picture off the target, but what you are trying to do is have everything steady and relaxed, the same as if it just went "click").


Actually, I think that what we said is not that far apart. It is just that you remind us to relax and accept that most shooters will not be able to obtain a "perfect" sight picture. Relaxation is a key point, don't over think it. I have also experienced this problem in a form when I first started shooting bull's-eye targets. I had a friend who could shoot his G21 so well that most of his shots would touch at any range (at least in an indoor range) you could place the target. I tried to emulate him w/a BHP MK III, but the more I concentrated on trying to make shots touch, the worse things got. The strange thing is, when I let my mind go blank things really improved even during IPSC/IDPA, etc. matches. At my best, shots can now touch on the indoor range, and IPSC/IDPA matches may have strings of fire at longer distances where double taps are only separated by 2-3 finger widths, (hits were 90% "A" zone hits. Old hands told me back then that I should speed up as speed is also a factor in scoring along with accuracy. Never looked back since then.


Oh, I should add that my wife ...
I kid you not, she puts all 5 shots out of her .38 snubbie into a fist sized group at 10 yards, double action. How did she go from dirt diggers to that? And she can slow-fire that small group farther out than 10 yards.

I love going to the range with her, because 2 things make all the guys think she won't hit the side of a barn:
1. She's shooting her snubbie (which most people have trouble shooting accurately).
2. She's a woman.

And then when her groups are tighter than the guys with their 1911's, their jaws just drop. :rofl:


Neat, I hope you tell her that :yourock:


:snoopy::usaf: