Concealed carry in Broward County [Archive] - Glock Talk

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TJC16
07-13-2009, 10:48
Per FS790.06(12) places where we cannot carry as well as Federal statues, can a person carry concealed into:
a: Gambling establishments within Broward county which are NOT Indian properties ie Gulfstream and Mardi Gras in Hallandale?
b: Dog Tracks
c: Jai Alai
d: Horse Tracks

Gutmacher's book does not specifically mention these places and Florida law is not specific as I do not believe they all qualify under professional sports.

Opinions are welcomed.

gatorider
07-13-2009, 14:33
I certainly can not quote every letter of the law, but I would think that if any of those establishments served alcohol, it would not be legal to conceal. Again, just my opinion.

luscioman
07-15-2009, 08:50
I just read the entire section of 7906 (12) and didnt see any refence to "gaming" areas. However if you consider dog/horse racing a "professional athletic event" then no.

Gatorider you are allowed to bring it into an establishement that serves alcohol as you are not in the area that is primarly for alochol (bar area of chilis). If you couldnt then just about any resturant would be a no-go.

The issue is if something happens you could always be charged with breaking 790.06 and you have to fight your way out of it. I think I would error on the side of caution and not carry in those places.

Jon_R
07-15-2009, 18:11
Counties can not make gun laws. All gun laws are controlled at the state level in FL carry in Broward would be the same as anywhere in the state.

You can not carry on Indian Land because it is not consider part of FL but lands of the Tribe.

You can not carry in a location referred to as a public nuisances. Crack Houses, Illegal Gambling Location, House of Prostitution, etc. If you are in them you have othe issues to.

You can not carry at School or Professional Athletic Competitions. Jai Alia I would say is a professional athletic competition. Horse Racing maybe.... Dog Racing. No the Dogs are not paid athletes.

If you do carry with a permit somewhere you are not supposed to and get caught it is a 2nd degree misdemeanor. Without a permit it is a felony. This does not include things like the Airport and Schools but if you carry into the bar area of Chillis it is a 2nd degree misdemeanor.

You can decide how you want to handle that. It is concealed carry and would only become unconcealed if you needed it to keep from dying. Taking the misdemeanor probably would be better then the alternative at that point. Better would be to ask to sit outside the bar area if you can figure out where the boundary is.

I would like to see one case in FL where a permit holder defended himself which you have the right to do anywhere you are and it occured in a bar area and the permit holder was then convicted of the misdemeanor.

TJC16
07-17-2009, 18:44
Counties can not make gun laws. All gun laws are controlled at the state level in FL carry in Broward would be the same as anywhere in the state.

You can not carry on Indian Land because it is not consider part of FL but lands of the Tribe.

You can not carry in a location referred to as a public nuisances. Crack Houses, Illegal Gambling Location, House of Prostitution, etc. If you are in them you have othe issues to.

You can not carry at School or Professional Athletic Competitions. Jai Alia I would say is a professional athletic competition. Horse Racing maybe.... Dog Racing. No the Dogs are not paid athletes.

If you do carry with a permit somewhere you are not supposed to and get caught it is a 2nd degree misdemeanor. Without a permit it is a felony. This does not include things like the Airport and Schools but if you carry into the bar area of Chillis it is a 2nd degree misdemeanor.

You can decide how you want to handle that. It is concealed carry and would only become unconcealed if you needed it to keep from dying. Taking the misdemeanor probably would be better then the alternative at that point. Better would be to ask to sit outside the bar area if you can figure out where the boundary is.

I would like to see one case in FL where a permit holder defended himself which you have the right to do anywhere you are and it occured in a bar area and the permit holder was then convicted of the misdemeanor.


Jon R

Thanks for the input, I agree with everything you state, and my reason for posting was the law was created prior to Non Indian Casino gambling and since many members frequent these establishments (licensed) and they are both a dog track and casino or jai alai and a casino or a horse track and casino are we legal to carry in the casino. It is not a place of nuisance which would preclude carry nor is it professional sports (Ok I may add only Jai Alai uses humans but we all know its fixed :rofl:.

I sent a request for clarification to FS 790.06(12) to BSO Sheriffs office as well as the states attorney general for response but have not received anything to date. Will post my results.

Thanks for the cogent repy.

Jon_R
07-17-2009, 19:11
You are welcome.

It will be interesting to see what they come back with. I would not expect anything from the Sherrif's office. They don't really decide what is or isn't against the law. They just guess and differ to the district or state attorney's office to decide to file charges or not. Charges deciding to be filed can based on many factors. One of which is does the DA/SA think he could win in a court of law. The other factors are how it will play for his re-election or future political ambitions.... etc...

Dog tracks, horse racing, Jai Alia have been in FL longer then carry permits have been issued. The fact they added a casino on to it should not matter unless they change the law.

My guess is there has never been a case in FL of someone carrying in these locations where charges where filed and it went before a jury / judge. There may have been people arrested then the Lawyers get involved and charges never get filed. If a case ever does make it to a judge becoming a test case that is when we will have our answer and precedence set. Short of that you are asking the State Attorney basically if an officer arrested me for carrying at one of these establishments do you think you would file charges against me.... Without an actual case decided by a judge the answer might change with the next SA. If a case has gone through the courts I hope he provided the reference in your reply.

glockpacker
07-17-2009, 23:18
There are terms here and there in Florida law that say the law will err on the side of concealed carry, because the idea is that the state WANTS licensee's to carry. So if it isn't on any specific list, then "concealed is concealed."

I generally carry everywhere I go, because I don't like to let any of my insurance coverages lapse.

Seldom, I will carry where I'm not supposed to. A couple weeks ago I went to lunch with two shooting buddies, and they wanted to sit in the bar area. Well, they both know I'm always armed. They are also both LE, and they made me sit in there anyway. That felt wierd.

TJC16
07-21-2009, 11:46
Gentlemen,

I received this reply from BSO re: CCW in area specific casinos et al. It is as we thought concealed is concealed and unless specifically restricted by statue fs 790.06(12), then you are good to go provided we comply with the bar area restrictions.

Here is the reply with some name editing:

Good morning Mr.

The statute does not specify the exact establishments you are able and not able to carry your weapon. Additionally, the Broward Sheriff's Office does not provide legal advise. In regards to the specific establishments you listed we can only refer to what the law states:
You are restricted from carrying a weapon or firearm even if you have a license in
any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption.
If any of the establishments you listed are licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages they would fall under places in which you are restricted from carrying your weapon. Furthermore, please note that each establishment may have additional restrictions regarding weapons. If the establishment does not have their weapons policy clearly visible for patrons, you may want to ask them directly what their policy is.

Sincerely,

Broward Sheriff's Office


<HR tabIndex=-1>Subject: Re: Concealed Carry per FS790.06(12)



<!--[gte IE 5]><?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->Good Day Sgt.

As Range Master for BSO, I am sure you are aware of the ambiguities in FS790.06(12) which is why I specifically requested the Sheriff's Office opinion on the below listed venues. Your attachment is an extract of the FS law and I fully versed in this list, but venues I have requested an opinion on are NOT addressed in your response the FS code nor has anyone in authority fully said IE a yes, b yes, c no etcetra.

If possible please reply to my original request as I and many lawful carry members want to be in full compliance with the law while in possession of a firearm.

Thank you for your assistance and cooperation.

Regards,
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: Concealed Carry per FS790.06(12)


Good morning


Thank you for your email. Attached is the Florida State Statute related to concealed weapons restrictions.


Thank you, <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Sgt.
Institute for Criminal Justice Studies<o:p></o:p>
Broward Sheriff's Office <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>
http://glocktalk.com/forums/wlmailhtml:{30F4E277-A23B-4B23-A74A-0399415F7783}mid://00000002/!x-usc:cid:815104314@21072009-1EDB<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Please note that <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">Florida</st1:State></st1:place> has a broad public records law, and that all correspondence sent to me via email may be subject to disclosure
Carry per FS790.06(12)







<!--[gte IE 5]><?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->Dear Sheriff Staff,

I have attempted to find the answer to this question via numeous sources, however no one seems to have the same response, My questions is Can a licensed CCW person carry their firearm in the following venues:
a: Dania Jai Alai
b: Mardi Grad Dog Track
c: Any Horse racing track
d: Broward's legalize gambling casino's (non Indian) ie Hallandale Gulf Stream and Mardi Gras?

Jon Gutmacher, a lawyer who specializes in CCW laws ie FS790 does not directly respond to this issue, nor has the Hallandale PD, nor any web forum for Concealed carry. The state attorney general will not respond to civilian questions unless their is a case pending, and the Dept. of Agriculture is not an enforcement unit so they will not comment.

As the chief law enforcement officer of my County, and wanting to be completely following the laws of the state of Florida as a licensed individual, please advise.

JungleJim
08-08-2009, 16:04
Furthermore, please note that each establishment may have additional restrictions regarding weapons. If the establishment does not have their weapons policy clearly visible for patrons

A business that posts a sign has no legal standing, so that part is not accurate as far as legal standings.