Why do we (Pinoys) love 1911s? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Giggity-Giggity
07-16-2009, 23:51
Please help me out with this thought. Everytime I bump into my fellow Pinoys at the range, almost everyone of them has a Colt 1911 or similar 1911 style in .45ACP of course.

Is there a historical explanation? Is there some sort of huge following? I remember my grandfather back in the motherland only had a .22 revolver but never a 1911.

Please share with me, why do most prefer this type of weapon?

Salamat.

superman79
07-17-2009, 00:15
Please help me out with this thought. Everytime I bump into my fellow Pinoys at the range, almost everyone of them has a Colt 1911 or similar 1911 style in .45ACP of course.

Is there a historical explanation? Is there some sort of huge following? I remember my grandfather back in the motherland only had a .22 revolver but never a 1911.

Please share with me, why do most prefer this type of weapon?

Salamat.


Because we love the Americans so much!:cool:

9MX
07-17-2009, 00:18
Its because of FPJ

CatsMeow
07-17-2009, 00:34
It's because the need for it was born down south.:supergrin: Plus Pinoys are inverterate gun tinkerers.

JEZZZ
07-17-2009, 00:36
para sa kin si Lito Lapid kasi....

ahtsay
07-17-2009, 03:33
:tongueout: because the other designs don't work :supergrin:

MAJINKONG
07-17-2009, 06:19
KC... yan sabi ng tatay ko, tito ko, pinsan ko, kapitbahay ko na pulis, kapitbahay na army etc... yun etc mga tropa ko na yon.

akula
07-17-2009, 06:50
Another aspect is that it has better 'technical' support available. All parts can be changed and customized. Almost all gunsmith know how to 'repair' or thinker or customize. Kahit na yung kikil at pliers lang ang gamit. :) (Even those who use only files and pliers...

Pinoys have a hack for being wanting to be unique and not conform. Just look at the Jeepneys on the road, no two units would look-alike; (or even to a certain extent the taxis and buses).

9MX
07-17-2009, 07:15
para sa kin si Lito Lapid kasi....

padre, hindi pa ready ang policy dun sa request mo ha

paltik45
07-17-2009, 08:43
It's because the need for it was born down south.:supergrin: Plus Pinoys are inverterate gun tinkerers.

They used the Philippines as the "Proving ground" of that gun during the Fil-Am war in the early 1900's. Technicaly they used it against the Juramentados of the south.

MERCMADE
07-17-2009, 09:00
it's not a phenomenom sole to filipinos, everybody loves the 1911; because its "beautiful" and because of the .45cal bullets it was originally designed to shoot.

MERCMADE
07-17-2009, 09:02
.... and because of fpj and lito lapit and the americans, of course.

horge
07-17-2009, 12:26
Because the 1911 was designed for us.... lolol...

Seriously...
If it's strong enough to stop a Filipino, then
it's just about good enough for a Filipino to use;
...and because 9mm is for pansies.

h.

Giggity-Giggity
07-17-2009, 13:45
...If it's strong enough to stop a Filipino, then
h.

Then why would we own such a weapon that destroyed our ancestors?

I'm not being anti-1911 or anything but just want to start conversation.

horge
07-17-2009, 16:20
Then why would we own such a weapon that destroyed our ancestors?

I'm not being anti-1911 or anything but just want to start conversation.


A weapon's just a tool. If I'm going to bear a grudge over its use against us,
it'll more likely be against the person wielding it. With that in mind, if said
weapon works so well, I deffo want it for our own use.

That there are several excellent Philippine-built 1911's, deffo helps.

:)

Allegra
07-17-2009, 18:40
Then why would we own such a weapon that destroyed our ancestors?

I'm not being anti-1911 or anything but just want to start conversation.

Not to pick any nits here, but it's just a legend that 1911 fanatics ( us ) like to tell
Pershing or whoeever didnt land in mindanao and conquer the moros w/ a pistol.
Sabagay , lito lapid could shoot 2 guys w/ one bullet

I'd go w/ the FPJ movies theory kaya popular
Pero napansin ko , dumadami na ang 9mm sa people from the boondocks ( hindi npa ha ). Ordinary dobandids

9MX
07-17-2009, 18:44
it's not a phenomenom sole to filipinos, everybody loves the 1911; because its "beautiful" and because of the .45cal bullets it was originally designed to shoot.

in the province kasi, may initial shock value agad if 1911 is the carry weapon..compared to other handguns. kumbaga, sindak agad

Punisher_nbi45
07-17-2009, 23:52
Personally, I like it because the gun carries so much history, and Filipinos played a part of their development (as some people say that the 1911 is as much a product of the U.S. Cavalry's requirements that they wanted a handgun that is capable of taking out the mounts of cavalry soldiers, not just the riders themselves). It's true that the Filipinos were not he sole reason for the 1911 coming into being, but they were still a factor that the Army Ordnance Board considered, especially after reports of the dismal failure of the .38 Long Colt to stop the charging Moros started surfacing.

The ergos on the 1911 are simply natural to someone who is trained to use it, and the placement and employment of the controls, especially in the manual of arms, highlights the design genius of J.M. Browning during the time the 1911 was put into service. The gun itself is amazingly fast to put into action, whether in competition or in real life.

Again, the caveat here is that you should be properly trained.

If I had to settle for one gun, I know I'd go for my 1911. Yeah, some guns may be more reliable, some may be more accurate, some may be durable, etc., etc. - but no one gun exemplifies all these qualities in one complete package like the 1911 does.

Just my 2 cents worth.....

jimbullet
07-18-2009, 04:02
Agree, the 1911 platform has been far the best. Being developed years ago, it remains to be a robust design in today's modern times.

horge
07-18-2009, 11:52
Not to pick any nits here, but it's just a legend that 1911 fanatics ( us ) like to tell
Pershing or whoeever didnt land in mindanao and conquer the moros w/ a pistol.

True, that :)
If we're talking about actual performance, credit hould go to
the Vickers Maxim, lol. The point however wasn't that the M1911
DID help conquer the Philippines, but that potential use here is
inseparable from the M1911's form and history.


I'd go w/ the FPJ movies theory kaya popular
Pero napansin ko , dumadami na ang 9mm sa people from the boondocks ( hindi npa ha ). Ordinary dobandids

Kidding aside, I think it's just sheer familarity.
The M1911 was THE "automatic" pistol from 1917 on through WW2,
kaya nga sina FPJ, yun ang dala. (Same thing applies today to what
is still known ere as an "Armalite".)

Yun lang ...and besides, 9mm is for weak-kneed pansies. :tongueout:

isuzu
07-18-2009, 15:45
They used the Philippines as the "Proving ground" of that gun during the Fil-Am war in the early 1900's. Technicaly they used it against the Juramentados of the south.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did the US Army use .45 Long Colt revolvers against the Moros.

isuzu
07-18-2009, 15:48
Pero napansin ko , dumadami na ang 9mm sa people from the boondocks ( hindi npa ha ). Ordinary dobandids

Not just that, the rebels now use 9mms in their assassination hits, as evidenced by shells recovered from crime scenes in Negros.

isuzu
07-18-2009, 15:50
I've tried different pistol platforms, but I still go back to the 1911. IMO, it's still the best platform.

Allegra
07-18-2009, 18:17
I've tried different pistol platforms, but I still go back to the 1911. IMO, it's still the best platform.


my fave is an alloy framed combat commander :) shoots just as well as the full size

markieboy
07-18-2009, 22:38
...and because 9mm is for pansies.

Ahem...I beg to differ. Many dead people will disagree with that statement.
:sadangel:

horge
07-19-2009, 03:53
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did the US Army use .45 Long Colt revolvers against the Moros.

Yes.
M1911's don't seem to have been available in volume here until
just before WW1, but the relationship beween these pistols and
this country remain. :)

Ahem...I beg to differ. Many dead people will disagree with that statement.
:sadangel:

One could then argue that all those dead people were pansies,
but that would cross the line from the clearly tongue-in-cheek,
to the clumsily foot-in-mouth.

jasonub
07-19-2009, 05:09
I think that the 9mm has killed more than the 45 acp. Mainly because it was chambered in a lot of subguns and deployed as primary weapons. From german to israeli etc etc,

the Americans i think are the only ones who made subguns of the 45 like the thompson, grease gun and ingrams

markieboy
07-19-2009, 12:03
I think that the 9mm has killed more than the 45 acp. Mainly because it was chambered in a lot of subguns and deployed as primary weapons. From german to israeli etc etc,

Well stated.

isuzu
07-19-2009, 20:52
my fave is an alloy framed combat commander :) shoots just as well as the full size

Can't argue with that. :) A lot of people think, there's a lot of difference in recoil and accuracy with regards to a full-size and a commander-size 1911. Tried both, and no noticeable difference.

Kaiser Soze
07-19-2009, 20:52
Why is the 1911 so popular? Well for one thing it's a pretty easy platform to learn with, like Punisher said, the ergos are great! I'm glad that gun manufacturers are finally making more firearms with similar ergonomics. Another reason is we Filipinos suffer from a condition called "Magnumitis", i.e. the bigger the bang, the better the gun. Yet another reason is that we like shooting a lot, and that means using reloads, which the 1911 gobbles up with no problem.

isuzu
07-19-2009, 20:59
I think that the 9mm has killed more than the 45 acp. Mainly because it was chambered in a lot of subguns and deployed as primary weapons. From german to israeli etc etc,

the Americans i think are the only ones who made subguns of the 45 like the thompson, grease gun and ingrams

9mm was the caliber chosen for UZIs and MP5s because the 9mm is an efficient round for its size. Blame it on German engineering. You can carry more 9mms than .45 ACPs, and have a firearm with a smaller size compared to a firearm that chambers a .45 ACP.

HK doesn't even market the MP5 in .40 S&W anymore.

Clusterbomb
07-19-2009, 21:46
The 9mm Parabellum has been around since 1908 and the fact that European Armies have not bothered to abandon it for another for most of their service pistols and machine pistols must mean something.

Me, I like the 45ACP round but not the 1911 pistol. So I bought a Glock21.

atmarcella
07-20-2009, 01:24
Pinoys have a hack for being wanting to be unique and not conform. Just look at the Jeepneys on the road, no two units would look-alike; (or even to a certain extent the taxis and buses).


if someone wants to be different/unique why would he chose a 1911? everybody has one.

Kaiser Soze
07-20-2009, 01:30
if someone wants to be different/unique why would he chose a 1911? everybody has one.

True, everybody has one, but they're almost like snowflakes, they're always different in some way. It depends on whether the gunsmith is great, or a glorified tubero (plumber) like some "gunsmiths" out there :supergrin:

choi_tan2000
07-20-2009, 01:46
1911

because you can build your own 1911's

every 1911 has a different character, even somtimes in same models. the user can modify it base o his own character

ala fpj, lito lapid, etc etc or on his own character

atmarcella
07-20-2009, 02:05
but if you want to be different. truly different. not just "surface different". why 1911?

Allegra
07-20-2009, 02:06
Ano fave na sasakyan ng naka 45?
dati tie ang stainless na owner at box type lancer heehee gamit pag may pinapalakad si manager :)

choi_tan2000
07-20-2009, 02:22
but if you want to be different. truly different. not just "surface different". why 1911?

cheaper base gun, and a lot of gunsmiths in our country.

atmarcella
07-20-2009, 02:25
which means you dont want to be different.

jasonub
07-20-2009, 03:01
i like the 1911 design since i can put 5 shots in 1 hole at 25 meters using my svi. I can hit plates 6" at 50 meters with my officers.

Thats why 1911. Though i carried an hk usp 45 before. and a 92fs, and a 226 and a hk usp 9....etc etc. Went through everything and went back to the 1911.

atmarcella
07-20-2009, 03:08
what about being unique/different?

jasonub
07-20-2009, 04:02
svi maybe just a handful of us have a pure svi in the philippines. If thats not different i dont know what is.

atmarcella
07-20-2009, 04:06
its still a 1911 isnt it?

Allegra
07-20-2009, 06:15
It's unique because it's the only gun that everyone has

DS12
07-20-2009, 06:44
Seriously...
If it's strong enough to stop a Filipino, then
it's just about good enough for a Filipino to use;


If that's the case that means that a .22 is good enough for a Filipino to use :tongueout:

jasonub
07-20-2009, 09:38
its a 2011 not a 1911 and makes half an inch to 1 inch groupings at 25 meters and has won a lot of matches not to mention my slide costs as much as a glock. hehehe

horge
07-20-2009, 13:09
If that's the case that means that a .22 is good enough for a Filipino to use :tongueout:

Ouch! :)

isuzu
07-20-2009, 19:34
Thats why 1911. Though i carried an hk usp 45 before. and a 92fs, and a 226 and a hk usp 9....etc etc. Went through everything and went back to the 1911.

Although I currently own a CZ 75B SA and shooting ESP in IDPA, I might move to CDP or get a 1911 in 9mm and still shoot ESP. Iba talaga ang 1911.

atmarcella
07-20-2009, 23:24
It's unique because it's the only gun that everyone has

good argument. but what about being different?

its a 2011 not a 1911

isnt a 2011 just a 1911 w/ a plastic handle?

and makes half an inch to 1 inch groupings at 25 meters and has won a lot of matches not to mention my slide costs as much as a glock. hehehe

i never argued about its accuracy or high cost. i only questioned its uniqueness.

jasonub
07-21-2009, 03:57
u⋅nique  /yuˈnik/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [yoo-neek] Show IPA
Use unique in a Sentence
–adjective 1. existing as the only one or as the sole example; single; solitary in type or characteristics: a unique copy of an ancient manuscript.
2. having no like or equal; unparalleled; incomparable: Bach was unique in his handling of counterpoint.
3. limited in occurrence to a given class, situation, or area: a species unique to Australia.
4. limited to a single outcome or result; without alternative possibilities: Certain types of problems have unique solutions.
5. not typical; unusual: She has a very unique smile.

–noun 6. the embodiment of unique characteristics; the only specimen of a given kind: The unique is also the improbable.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1595–1605; < F < L ūnicus, equiv. to ūn(us) one + -icus -ic

Related forms:

u⋅nique⋅ly, adverb
u⋅nique⋅ness, noun


Usage note:
Many authors of usage guides, editors, teachers, and others feel strongly that such “absolute” words as complete, equal, perfect, and especially unique cannot be compared because of their “meaning”: a word that denotes an absolute condition cannot be described as denoting more or less than that absolute condition. However, all such words have undergone semantic development and are used in a number of senses, some of which can be compared by words like more, very, most, absolutely, somewhat, and totally and some of which cannot.
The earliest meanings of unique when it entered English around the beginning of the 17th century were “single, sole” and “having no equal.” By the mid-19th century unique had developed a wider meaning, “not typical, unusual,” and it is in this wider sense that it is compared: The foliage on the late-blooming plants is more unique than that on the earlier varieties. The comparison of so-called absolutes in senses that are not absolute is standard in all varieties of speech and writing.

Meaning no one has a unique pistol since its definition is "only one of a kind"- fingerprint etc may be unique.

Rare pistol in the philippines= svi, lorcin, desert eagle, 1911 by singer, etc.

OT na ata hehehe

atmarcella
07-21-2009, 04:09
w/c means you cant chose a 1911 if you want to be unique and not conform bcos everybody has one.

sure you could argue the my 1911 is different from his. but, its just like saying a labrador is different from a german sheperd. duh... they're both "basically" dogs.

or.... my dog is more expensive and accurate than your dog bcos my dog is an SVI and yours is only armscor.


duh... they're both still dogs.

jasonub
07-21-2009, 04:12
1911 2011

started as 45 cal many calibers, change of barrel and mags with the ibf slide
9,40,super,supercomp,9x21,40,10mm,22, 357sig......

produced 1911? produced in the 80's

single stack double stacked

short dust short or long dust

steel frame modular frame remove the grips and its a different animal
than a 1911 frame. thicker and stronger everywhere

originally casted cnc solid barstock or aluminum frame
frame

killed lots of killed more plates and target boards
terrorists, communists
nazis, etc etc

dami pa pero wala na ako tyaga. they look the same but they obviously are not.

atmarcella
07-21-2009, 04:22
they look the same but they obviously are not.

1911 2011

has a slide also has a slide

has a barrel also has a barrel

has a frame also has a frame

sao sao

hammer fired -do-

grip safety -do-

external thumb safety -do-

barrel link -do-

jasonub
07-21-2009, 04:32
hoookay. Good luck with that

Eye Cutter
07-21-2009, 06:55
andrew. jeez! ano ba gusto mong patunayan sa pag rant mo? di mo type 1911 or 2011? stop pestering jason and go sit in the corner!

hahaha! peace!

Allegra
07-21-2009, 08:25
Parang senate hearing hahaha

horge
07-21-2009, 08:27
Honga, no, hahaha

atmarcella
07-22-2009, 02:58
hehehehe

atmarcella
07-22-2009, 03:03
eto mas simple. you buy a dog to guard your house. you buy the most expensive guard dog and you say "pre belgian malinois yan, thats the best and most expensive guard dog".

hello its still a dog.


now, if you bought a tiger.


i would say "lupet pre, iba ka talaga". unique ka, different kapa. ilan lang ata meron nyan dito sa pelepens. i only know 1. si chavit.

atmarcella
07-22-2009, 03:13
di mo type 1911

i have 2. nasa iloilo nga lang.

horge
07-22-2009, 06:42
eto mas simple. you buy a dog to guard your house. you buy the most expensive guard dog and you say "pre belgian malinois yan, thats the best and most expensive guard dog".

hello its still a dog.


now, if you bought a tiger.
...


Dog, tiger... to some it'd still and simply be a four-legged animal.
Classification/taxonomy is inherently subjective.

Where you'd lump together all 1911's homogenously, others see variety.
Heck, some lump all pistols together while discerning between rifle types.
Kanya kanyang choice how perceptive/generalizing to be. Since it is all
so subjective, it's pointless trying to get someone else to subscribe to
your POV via argument.

h.

jasonub
07-22-2009, 08:50
H,

dont argue it just ads fuel. You cant win.

Allegra
07-22-2009, 18:08
woohoo! punuin ko ng popcorn at beer yung fatboy ko.
This will be fun! :)

Wp.22
07-22-2009, 18:17
this is better than senate hearing

atmarcella
07-23-2009, 00:06
ang point ko lang. they belong to the same species. the 2011 is an improvement of the 1911. but basically its still the same. the barrel link is still there. the grip safety there. the external thumb safety there. sao.

now. if you want an entirely different species. there are pistols that are linkless e.g. browning hi-power, glock, sig. there are those that rotate their barrel when they unlock e.g. sti gp6, beretta cheetah (not sure about name). there are those that have barrel links but they are SA/DA. habol... striker fired e.g. taurus, glock, steyr.

so there you are. their are pistols of a different specie than the 1911/2011.


i first reacted to this thread w/c is somewhat of a proverbial can of worms thread bcos i read a post saying that if you are a non-conformist you chose the 1911 platform.

i disagree.


in fact its the other way around. if you want to conform and be accepted by the majority you chose a 1911/2011. why? bcos everybody has/shoots with one. you can replace parts and customize it. but, at the end of the day ask yourself "is it a different gun?".


thats ok. accepted ka naman. everybody has one. majority shoots one. its ALL ok.


singing "my way" and living it are two entirely different realities.


peace. we're just talking here. after all. this is "glocktalk". hehehehe.

horge
07-23-2009, 14:43
H,

dont argue it just ads fuel. You cant win.

Oh yes I can..
You just watch me....
:steamed: :steamed: :steamed:
:supergrin:


Andrew... this is the post you say you were reacting to, and unfairly IMO.

Another aspect is that it has better 'technical' support available. All parts can be changed and customized. Almost all gunsmith know how to 'repair' or thinker or customize. Kahit na yung kikil at pliers lang ang gamit. :) (Even those who use only files and pliers...

Pinoys have a knack for wanting to be unique and not conform. Just look at the Jeepneys on the road, no two units would look-alike; (or even to a certain extent the taxis and buses).

Context matters.
To me, he's talking about satisfying a Pinoy desire to be unique,
whether or not the resulting pistol actually is unique.

He's talking about customization, DIY or pro, hence the
reference to pliers and files. AFAICT, the M1911 is the most easily
customized of the mag pistols out there, for sheer gunsmith and
third-party parts support alone, and in no small measure due to
the "culture" of customization surroundingthe M1911.

Whether the end-result is unique or not...
The desire to do stuff to make one's pistol unique is more easily
satisfied on an M1911 than many other pistols.

The "customization itch" is easily scratched, because of third-party
infrastructure in the maretplace, and because of the broad culture
ofcustomization that surrounds the M1911, yet is absent from many
other pistol patterns.

Hence the thought that Pinoys like the M1911 because it's easy to
tinker with; any desire to tinker with it, at least partly rooted in a
desire to be unique.


As to whether a customized 1911 is that unique or not...
I've already said classification/distinction is subjective.
I'm not going to tell the proud owner of a custom pistol that
what he's holding in 99% stock. People share over 90%
genetic commonality with just how many species, again?

h.

Eye Cutter
07-23-2009, 16:18
wahahaha!

your rebuttal mr. honorable marcella....

PMMA97
07-23-2009, 17:56
...and because 9mm is for pansies.
h.



One could then argue that all those dead people were pansies,
.

Aray!:supergrin:

jasonub
07-23-2009, 17:57
jeez. pagalingan na lang bumaril. sino magaling panalo!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODDoNQVeSYk

tigra
07-23-2009, 19:07
ang point ko lang. they belong to the same species. the 2011 is an improvement of the 1911. but basically its still the same. the barrel link is still there. the grip safety there. the external thumb safety there. sao.

now. if you want an entirely different species. there are pistols that are linkless e.g. browning hi-power, glock, sig. there are those that rotate their barrel when they unlock e.g. sti gp6, beretta cheetah (not sure about name). there are those that have barrel links but they are SA/DA. habol... striker fired e.g. taurus, glock, steyr.

so there you are. their are pistols of a different specie than the 1911/2011.



sure you could argue the my 1911 is different from his. but, its just like saying a labrador is different from a german sheperd. duh... they're both "basically" dogs.



pards, kung yung labrador and german shepherd although magkaiba ang breed e aso pa rin.......yung 1911, glock, sti gp6, taurus, etc., lahat yan e baril pa rin di ba?:rofl:

jasonub
07-23-2009, 22:53
nope others like the glock are called tupperware and not a gun its a projectile launcher

Punisher_nbi45
07-23-2009, 23:33
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did the US Army use .45 Long Colt revolvers against the Moros.

I believe they used .38 caliber revolvers back then, which were quite anemic against the charging Moros. There might have been a few .45 Long Colt revolvers, but as I understand it, the majority was .38 revolvers.

atmarcella
07-23-2009, 23:48
hahahaha. guys i am totally enjoying this. i hope you are also. hahahahaha.


resulting pistol

reply to my good friend mr H,

what im trying to argue is not the end product. i am focused on the "start". w/c means. picture this. nasa gunshow ka and you are going to buy your first gun. alam mo na pistol ang bibilhin mo kasi lalaki ka. ang revo daw pangbabae yan kasi hindi nag ja jam. joke joke joke. baka me magalit. so you look at many guns. or lately pati airsoft. you see a 1911. and you chose one. now are you a conformist or not a conformist? considering lalaki ka at marami kana din kahit papano alam sa baril. what are you?


sure. after a while you add this and that. but is it a different gun? look at the mechanics. its still the same barrel that pivots on a link. the trigger mechanism is still the same. btw, one word for the 1911/2011 trigger. sweet. 2 external safeties, hammer fired etc. etc.

so. sa umpisa palang. are you a conformist or the opposite?


the start is important. it defines you.

sure after a while you wrestle to get out of the box. give it to this and that gunsmith. but. is that gunsmith going to change the inherent internal deep rooted mechanics of the gun?


bumalabs.


its still going to be a 1911. and everybody has one. including yours truly. so at the start. at the time of casting. at the time of forging. what are you?



pards, kung yung labrador and german shepherd although magkaiba ang breed e aso pa rin.......yung 1911, glock, sti gp6, taurus, etc., lahat yan e baril pa rin di ba?


mr T,

lahat sila pistols. as opposed to revo, break barrel single shot etc. we're just trying to seperate their DNA. hehehehe. ang saya ano? nag ta type ako naka ngiti. hehehehe.

Punisher_nbi45
07-23-2009, 23:55
What about the Para? I would think that would be natural evolution of the 1911 more than the 2011 would be.

atmarcella
07-24-2009, 00:01
sir,

its a high capacity 1911. the 2011 is also a high capacity 1911. w/ plastic handles.

these are all just my opinion. but is it the truth?

tigra
07-24-2009, 00:38
mr T,

lahat sila pistols. as opposed to revo, break barrel single shot etc. we're just trying to seperate their DNA. hehehehe. ang saya ano? nag ta type ako naka ngiti. hehehehe.

o bakit dinagdagan mo na naman.....meron na ngayon revo etc, wala yan kanina ah!:tongueout: e syempre di nga pistol ung revo, pero baril pa rin yun!:rofl:

dun lang tayo sa UNIQUE and DIFFERENT....yung different SPECIE dun sa earlier post mo medyo specific na yun! hahahahaha! siguro kung ganito ang kwentuhan habang umiinon, siguradong malalasheng tayo lahat!:rofl:

Wp.22
07-24-2009, 01:11
What about the Para? I would think that would be natural evolution of the 1911 more than the 2011 would be.

OT: long time no post kayo ba in-charge in guarding the high profile witness

jimbullet
07-24-2009, 01:28
Punisher, in what sense is the Para more of an evolution of the 1911 than the 2011? both appear to be an evolution of their single stack grandparent, one though may have gone to the next level - space age.

Kaiser Soze
07-24-2009, 02:29
:uglylol: I'm enjoying this thread, very lively discussion, but I truly believe that it may never end, just like the 9mm vs .45, steel vs polymer, Noranians vs Vilmanians, etc. I'm glad na walang pikunan though :cheers:

P.S. Vilmanian ako, DIE HARD :bowdown:

Eye Cutter
07-24-2009, 04:20
what if i chose a glock? does owning a glock make you a conformist or not?

Punisher_nbi45
07-24-2009, 04:38
Punisher, in what sense is the Para more of an evolution of the 1911 than the 2011? both appear to be an evolution of their single stack grandparent, one though may have gone to the next level - space age.

Jim,

Just my opinion. I would think that on the evolutionary scale, the Para would go between the single stack and the 2011 simply because the Para is all-steel while the 2011 is already polymer. One could argue that the 2011, which came after the Para, is the next step simply because the materials used are way different that what was used in the single stacks.

In a sense, you are also correct that both the Para and the 2011 could be considered as taking the same evolutionary trend, although just diverging in materials and worksmanship. That both, while different, are the same in that both are representatives of the hi-capacity trend.

Wp,

Not really us, we are handling other hi-profile cases. Dami nga trabaho. :crying:

jasonub
07-24-2009, 04:57
eh how about the MLRS?

horge
07-24-2009, 05:06
reply to my good friend mr H,

what im trying to argue is not the end product. i am focused on the "start". w/c means. picture this. nasa gunshow ka and you are going to buy your first gun. alam mo na pistol ang bibilhin mo kasi lalaki ka. ang revo daw pangbabae yan kasi hindi nag ja jam. joke joke joke. baka me magalit. so you look at many guns. or lately pati airsoft. you see a 1911. and you chose one. now are you a conformist or not a conformist? considering lalaki ka at marami kana din kahit papano alam sa baril. what are you?
....
the start is important. it defines you.



If a common pistol is bought with the object of customization,
(and said customization is realistically attainable,) then the
non-conformism is there in spirit "at the start",* which phrase
seems to be the key to your argument.

It is precisely why I quoted akula's post, which you claim got
you thinking. He wasn't talking about 'the start', but rather, the
way tinkering/customization satisfies a desire for uniqueness:
whether one is successful or not (a subjectivity), the so-called
itch has been scratched, and more easily than with a non-1911.

Hence, a desire to have a custom/unique pistol may lead one to
choose a 1911. AFAICT, that's what he's saying, and I agree.


We seem to really have a fundamental difference of perception:
You feel that "the start" defines you, a concept alien to my
belief and principles.

I feel the start is merely a set of limitations and potential,
and it is what you make of them that defines you; I'd apply it
to the matter of social class, of skin color and of congenital
defects: they're perhaps limitations, but they don't "define you"
from birth... but I'm straying afield of what we are discussing:
a choice of pistol and a desire for uniqueness.

A 1911 is backed by more market support for customization
than most any other pistol, and customization (by definition)
aspires to uniqueness.

Uniqueness is subjective, because classification is too.

I can tell 1911's apart, just on minor differences.
Obviously, some won't discern enough difference, and lump all
the myriad forms of 1911's under one class, just as still others
would generalize all pistols.

For pistols as for people, lol...
A visiting foreigner won't always distinguish between a Tagalog
and an Ilokano. Heck, some wouldn't even distinguish between
a Bisaya and a bowl of soup.

If we have such fundamental differences of belief & perception,
on whether it is the start or the result that defines a thing, and
on the subjectivity and relativity of classification, then Jason
would be right...

Further discussion between us will be fruitless, for little common
frame of reference. Hopefully that is not the case.

Cheers,
h.

*A conformist would also buy a 1911, but for different reasons, and
this is the tack others were taking much earlier: that merits aside,
1911's are popular because they're popular --sort of the way some
celebrities are famous for being famous. Merits not aside, I've
already said that 9mm is for... well, you know (I keed, I keed...)

jimbullet
07-24-2009, 05:08
Multiple Launch Rocket Systems (MLRS)....in 45ACP, single action? hahaha...

horge
07-24-2009, 09:52
MLRS in .45 ACp good.
MLRS in 9mm.... eh.
:tongueout:

what if i chose a glock? does owning a glock make you a conformist or not?

Since it's harder to customize a Glock, I'd say yes. :)
(Odds are, you're not buying it to customize it.)

Eye Cutter
07-24-2009, 10:25
...but the glock's been touted the successor to the 1911 in terms of custom parts. so does it still follow that andrew's premise holds true?

horge
07-24-2009, 14:29
...but the glock's been touted the successor to the 1911 in terms of custom parts. so does it still follow that andrew's premise holds true?

Hey, Bossman Doc :)

AFAICT...
Andrew's thinking that 1911's are the popular default in the Philippines,
so that choosing a 1911 brands one as a conformist. However, what
I'm saying is that ANY mass-produced handgun ISN'T unique,
and it is the fact of keeping it stock that shows a conformist.

Non-conformists can try to make pistols unique via customization,
and the 1911 is far easier to tweak than most, because of third-party
aftermarket support.

The very broad market support for 1911 customization speaks volumes
on consumer sentiment, and so, buying a 1911 can indeed indicate a
desire for individuality or uniqueness, obtained through tweaks.

If a Glock were as easily (and severely) tweakable as a 1911, then
buying a Glock might also suggest a desire for uniqueness. However,
I wager more Glocks stay stock than 1911's. This may have as much
to do with market tweak-support, as Glock's rep for reliability out of
the box.

Contrast Glock's single maker with the myriad of manufacturers with
inconsistent QC, producing a "jammamatic" bad-rep for the 1911.
This bad rep inclines the 1911 buyer towards tweaking right from the
starting gate, which easily crosses over into changes just for looks.

JM2, YMMV, etc...
:)
h.

Eye Cutter
07-24-2009, 17:16
o, ayan, andrew, horge gives a good explanation for the 1911. do you still maintain that having a custom 1911 still makes us owners of 1911 pistols guilty of ordinariness?

horge
07-24-2009, 18:15
Seņor Marcella and I often differ on a number of issues.
It's what makes discussion ...interesting.

When the diference is too fundamental in nature, though...
we can always just agree to disagree. In the end, we all
have a right to our own opinions.

Cheers! :)
h.

Eye Cutter
07-24-2009, 18:25
sabihan ko kaya "yung glock mo, its just a piece of black plastic!" "boring naman nyan!" "my 1911's customized by Churchil, blinged out by Lantin" " O, ano, walang sinabi yang tupperware mo!" "walang basagan ng trip, dude!"

hahaha!

horge
07-24-2009, 21:13
LOL... I thought you IPSC'ers are used to such trash-talk!
:supergrin:

atmarcella
07-25-2009, 00:02
hehehe i really like it when it gets cerebral. i tend to read every post word for word. to really understand what the poster is saying. cheers to everyone. here we go. hehehehe

what if i chose a glock? does owning a glock make you a conformist or not?

if you live in the phils it makes you a non-conformist bcos its not so very popular here. its a little bit popular in prod, but im guessing the "shadow" has or will, eclipse it.

if you live in the US. lamang pa din 1911 pero lumalapit na sya. so what does it make you if you live in the US and chose a glock?

im guessing conformist kana din.


gusto mo lang cguro mag save sa gunsmithing thats why you chose a glock. kung taga US ka ha!

If a common pistol is bought with the object of customization,
(and said customization is realistically attainable,) then the
non-conformism is there in spirit "at the start",* which phrase
seems to be the key to your argument.



when someone customizes a 1911. YES, he becomes different. but, he is still part of the "herd". maybe he is on the fringes of the herd bcos of the uniqueness of his pistol or he is at the head of the herd bcos of the price/cost of his pistol. but still part of the herd. yes?


when someone buys a 1911 w/ customization in mind. the spirit of wanting to be different is there. yes it is definitely there. the question is.


can he?

no matter what he does to it. its still going to be the same. sadly.


i do not know or have not known of any gunsmith or tinkerer who has changed the mechanics of that gun.


is the spirit there? YES it is definitely there. but the question is.


can he?


or she? hehehehe baka me girl dito hehehehe.


just as still others
would generalize all pistols

i have thought about this. its impossible. bcos if you do. then that means that if someone asks "what kind?" you could just as well answer him "they're all called glocks". or 1911's, cz's etc.


in the end. if a person buys a 1911 bcos he wants to be unique. all i can say is.


can you?

do you still maintain that having a custom 1911 still makes us owners of 1911 pistols guilty of ordinariness?
Today 04:29



no. i will never claim that an owner of a custom 1911 is an ordinary person. being a conformist does not mean that you are ordinary. it just means you want to belong. to be part of the herd.

being a non-conformist means. you have the guts to expose yourself. to be on your own. without the protection of the herd.

my 1911's customized by Churchil, blinged out by Lantin

did it morph into another kind of pistol. better yet.


can you honestly, truthfully,


call it NOT a 1911.


cheers everyone. enjoy.

Eye Cutter
07-25-2009, 00:16
wahahaha!

nice discussion boys! ilabet!

ayoko na ng glock or 1911.

mag IMI desert eagle na lang ako!

pero in 9mm ha? wahahaha!

keep it up! makes for a good read!

;-)

atmarcella
07-25-2009, 00:19
as an aside,


its really very frustrating and sad. honestly,


i can feel your angst.


you spend all that money and even effort in some cases. wanting to be different. but in the end.


is it?

ps, ang sarap sakalin si andrew ano? he just digs and digs right to the very core dose'nt he? hehehehe

all for the sake of argument fellows.... all for the sake of argument

jasonub
07-25-2009, 03:27
still going on?

Practice na lang kayo using your pistol that has a slide. pati glocks may slide but may need a breechface after a lot of dri fire or a barrel after shooting about 300 rounds of lead.

Sino pala naginvent ng pistol with slide? if its john browning then duun din kinopya ni glock ang slide therefore there the same?

so is the detachable magazine. magazine release. the locked breech recoil operated dropping barrel. the recoil spring the guide rod, the dust cover.

Even the plastic was copied from hk vp70.

So whats the difference?

The only thing thats different is the shooter and his skill in hitting what needs to be hit in 1 shot in pistol distances maybe up to 70 meters.

With a lot of practice everybody can be numero uno using their chosen lead launcher.............not hehehe.

horge
07-25-2009, 05:58
Hi Andrew,

I'll say again, classification is subjective, relative, and ultimately arbitrary.
If you want to think generically, others prefer the detail of specificity.

At the extreme end of genericity, ALL cartridge firearms constitute one herd.
At the extreme of specificity, the tiniest tweak makes a pistol "unique".
Kanya kanyang subjectivity/myopia 'yan...

If you really can't allow for that, then further discussion wil be fruitless.
If you can, but are merely poking at people to stimulate discussion, then
be aware that incessant poking can break skin... especially when you
question something that others may have felt strongly enough about to
spend "all that money and even effort" on.

Me? I'm a stock pistol kind of guy, and I don't mess with IPSC.
Don't know if that's conformist behavior or not, and I don't care.
I train, very very hard for the real world, and what does matter to me
is knowing I have good odds of neutralizing anyone dumb enough to
give me reason to.

:)
Cheers,
h.

nrmcolt
07-25-2009, 07:22
:popcorn:

jasonub
07-25-2009, 07:33
penge popcorn

batangueno
07-25-2009, 14:38
Masaya pala dito....mahaba-haba itong babasahin ko. :supergrin:

atmarcella
07-26-2009, 00:23
i rest my case already. ill leave it to the jury to decide. cheers. god bless to all.

jasonub
07-26-2009, 04:34
whaaat H wins???

horge
07-26-2009, 05:03
whaaat H wins???

Ehehehehehe.....

If people find the arguments interesting, then we all win.
If however, the arguments are too repetitive or irritating, we all lose.
He has his POV as I have mine, and everyone else has theirs.

Cheers,
:wavey:
h.

maraf
07-26-2009, 05:28
We love jeepneys, owner jeep, Spanish built churches, dimsum and just about anything inlcuding the 1911 that is not Pinoy because we have a colorful history of different colonial influences that we can not even come up with our own original weapon that uses bullets other than a sumpak! Tsk Tsk!

horge
07-26-2009, 06:07
We love jeepneys, owner jeep, Spanish built churches, dimsum and just about anything inlcuding the 1911 that is not Pinoy because we have a colorful history of different colonial influences that we can not even come up with our own original weapon that uses bullets other than a sumpak! Tsk Tsk!

I'd hate to be in a culture so insular, it rejects everything foreign, hehe.


A Jeepney is Filipino, and recognized as such around the world, but to you
it apparently remains a foreign, USGI Jeep, no matter the changes in
passenger capacity, physical dimensions, performance and appearance.
There is no culture on this earth that has not borrowed from another,
and the better ones actually ADAPT foreign articles to better service.

Those "Spanish-built" churches are all Filipino-built from Philippine materials
and possess distinctly-Filipino features.(an exception might be made for that
all-steel Gothic wonder in Manila, imported piece by piece). I've visited
churches in Burgos, Zaragoza, a good part of Catalunya, even in that armpit
of Spain, Madrid ---and no, the churches here in the Philippines are quite
instantly distinguishable from those in Spain --and they have to be, for the
simple consideration of strong earthquakes and available materials, not to
mention the artistic bias of the local craftsmen employed.
BTW, I am an architect by profession.

My opinion on indigenous firearms design is this: for so long as our laws are
hostile to private firearms design, construction and ven mere possession
(as they have been, since the 1790's), you won't see much innovation.
What you will see is prudent, market-proven designs being built and sold.


Cheers,
h.

atmarcella
07-27-2009, 01:29
H pasensya na i cant turn off my mind. i was thinking. we could not see eye to eye bcos we were dealing with 2 words that have seperate and distinct definitions. those 2 words are.


unique and different.


we lumped them all together thats why there was confusion. see if this premise is more palatable to your taste.


1911 buyer. conformist. but will eventually become unique bcos of customization.


buyer of other designs. non-coformist outright. he is different
.



2011 buyer. unique outright. no need to customize to become unique. but still conformist.


how about that? pwede?


andrew.

bmag
07-27-2009, 01:30
"BTW, I am an architect by profession."

COOL:cool:
Sinasabi ko na nga ba me common sa min ni idol eh.

He he he... enjoy ako sa palitan dito.
at mula ngayon type ko na mga architect ng UP.:hugs:

horge
07-27-2009, 05:52
H pasensya na i cant turn off my mind.
:supergrin:
We wouldn't want THAT, haha.

i was thinking. we could not see eye to eye bcos we were dealing with 2 words that have seperate and distinct definitions. those 2 words are.

unique and different.
we lumped them all together thats why there was confusion. see if this premise is more palatable to your taste.

1911 buyer. conformist. but will eventually become unique bcos of customization.

buyer of other designs. non-coformist outright. he is different
.

2011 buyer. unique outright. no need to customize to become unique. but still conformist.

how about that? pwede?
andrew.

Siempre puede, haha... kanya-kanyang definition yan, 'dre, and since
conformism/nonconformism isn't a factor in making my choices of pistol,
I can easily accept the varying views of those for whom it IS a concern.
That's all I'm saying, really --that we may differ in opinions. Fact of life.

POV-wise, I'm not that far away from what you posted above.
For me...

Unique vs. Different:
These terms are, as you said, more solidly defined than most.
Ang POV ko, a buyer can try to be different by choosing the less-common
brand, but any single mass-produced pistol, by default, will have many
copies out of the factory, and so cannot be unique. Kailangan, the owner
resorts to customization, to have a chance at uniqueness on some level.
Certainly, other POV's might be held by others.

Conformism vs. Non-Conformism:
These terms are at the mercy of fashion.
What happens when EVERYONE is customizing?
All of a sudden, leaving a pistol stock approaches nonconformist behavior.

Ultimately, since people also choose their guns for other and better factors,*
it's tricky, linking a person's choice of pistol to conformism or its opposite.

Cheers :)
h.



*Personally lang ha? :)
I choose guns based on how well they shoot in my hands, and how ably
they are supported by my finances. My Armscor Practical FS2T is still
virtually stock -- I changed out the factory gripstocks because they
sucked epic monkeyballs; ditto my Bersa --factory polygrips were POS.

People who know me tell me I subconsciously try to be old school.
I tell 'em that I'm just a cheap bastard, so I buy what's needed and no more.
I also tell them I buy guns to protect the priceless, so I buy what's tried,
tested and proven to work in my hands. My Armscor and Bersa were the
purchase results of much rental-use/borrowings at the range. My decision
not to go with a CZ75, a ParaOrd, HS2000, Kahr or Glock was also similarly
based. I enjoy shooting and tinkering with an M4gery occasionally, but I'm
just too cheap to buy my own.

Eye Cutter
07-27-2009, 06:12
whatever you decide to get, better be proficient with it... make sure that the little pansy 9mm slug goes where you want it to be. hahaha!

atmarcella
07-27-2009, 23:45
i guess that settles it. cheers everyone. that was.... epic. hehehehe.

ahtsay
07-28-2009, 00:39
nahilo ako sa thread na ito, if a german shepherd = 1911/2011, ano kaya pwede compare sa tiger?? :dunno: RPG?

jasonub
07-28-2009, 04:46
we love the 1911/2011 since it is accurate, reliable, beautiful, customable, durable, and has been in most if not all the wars fought all over the world since its inception.

No other pistol has that history and seems that it will continue its legacy until handheld laser pistols are invented.

therefore 1911/2011 = pistol. Like toothpaste=colgate, revolver=smith and wesson, photocopy=xerox, water=tubig :)

horge
07-28-2009, 06:16
at mula ngayon type ko na mga architect ng UP.:hugs:
Ayyyyy!!!! fafa!!!! :embarassed: :supergrin:
:rofl:

saki1611
07-28-2009, 06:41
i don't wanna join with the rebuttal and it seems it has ended already, but i just want to state my opinion. the Colt 1911 particularly, is indeed unique especially way back when it was first introduced in war and the purpose of its caliber. it only became ordinary, in the market per se, because it became the most copied pistol in the world. almost all gun manufacturers have their own 1911 models or pistols that were patterned from it. thus, its uniqueness became so popular in gun enthusiasts that these businessmen in gun market filled-up the demand. the Model 1911 is simply the most worldwide influential and popular handgun design ever invented. then of course the birth of glock mildly change the trend. that's why i have a glock and 1911, and fortunately i can shoot well with both pistols.:supergrin:

jojo_G19
07-28-2009, 07:28
we love the 1911/2011 since it is accurate, reliable, beautiful, customable, durable, and has been in most if not all the wars fought all over the world since its inception.

No other pistol has that history and seems that it will continue its legacy until handheld laser pistols are invented.

therefore 1911/2011 = pistol. Like toothpaste=colgate, revolver=smith and wesson, photocopy=xerox, water=tubig :)



dapat siguro sir 1911/2011 = 45. hehehehhe



jojo

Punisher_nbi45
07-28-2009, 22:16
i don't wanna join with the rebuttal and it seems it has ended already, but i just want to state my opinion. the Colt 1911 particularly, is indeed unique especially way back when it was first introduced in war and the purpose of its caliber. it only became ordinary, in the market per se, because it became the most copied pistol in the world. almost all gun manufacturers have their own 1911 models or pistols that were patterned from it. thus, its uniqueness became so popular in gun enthusiasts that these businessmen in gun market filled-up the demand. the Model 1911 is simply the most worldwide influential and popular handgun design ever invented. then of course the birth of glock mildly change the trend. that's why i have a glock and 1911, and fortunately i can shoot well with both pistols.:supergrin:

I wholeheartedly agree!:supergrin:

jasonub
07-28-2009, 22:48
saki,

come on? can you shoot the 1911 as well as your glock?

Everything the same. Make a cof with even 9 rounds. get the hit factor after you shoot it. what hit factor did you get one against the other.

Make it a little difficult like. 1 target at 15 meters another at 20, another at 30 meters and 3 plates at 25 meters. 9 rounds. condition 2 gun in table.

timer and score shows the difference.

saki1611
07-29-2009, 02:38
saki,

come on? can you shoot the 1911 as well as your glock?

Everything the same. Make a cof with even 9 rounds. get the hit factor after you shoot it. what hit factor did you get one against the other.

Make it a little difficult like. 1 target at 15 meters another at 20, another at 30 meters and 3 plates at 25 meters. 9 rounds. condition 2 gun in table.

timer and score shows the difference.

jason, of course not the same accuracy and speed considering their difference in ergonomics, but i can shoot good enough in close quarter shooting on both pistols. and of course not as good as you though.:supergrin:

Punisher_nbi45
07-29-2009, 03:46
The 1911 (and its various derivatives) isn't for everyone. But for Filipinos, the love affair is understandable, and not really surprising. For most of us, it is the first autoloader we are exposed to. Aside from the ubiquitous revolver, it is probably the most prevalent pistol that can be seen in our country.

Not a lot of us here could afford to get Glocks, Sigs, HKs, etc. Keep in mind, I'm talking about the majority of the population, not everybody. With this in mind, many 1911 pistols (including derivatives) are, luckily, quite affordable. Brands from Norinco, Armscor, Llama, and the like are relatively inexpensive, and easy to get (if you have all the necessary papers).

For me, the 1911 serves to illustrate the pinnacle of firearms development, but keep in mind that this is my personal view. I am willing to accept, work with, and overcome the inherent weaknesses of the design through training, research, and keeping an open mind about it. As an example, I carry a Para. If you go to the many boards and forums on the Internet, Paras carry an "iffy" reputation, ranging from acceptably reliable to being total POS. In my humble view, however, a Para could be made to work as long as you can accept the fact that no system made by man could ever be totally reliable, hence, that is why many of us train in malfunction drills and/or carry a back-up firearm.

To echo what many firearms enthusiasts have said, i would be very happy and content to carry any of the fine firearms put out by the various manufacturers. Many, especially those from HK, Beretta, and Glock, are so reliable that you could shoot them all day and not have to worry about jams, double feeds, or any other malfunctions that may come to mind.

However, there is just such a special allure that comes with owning and operating a 1911 (especially a dead-on reliable one), and I believe that this allure is more than just a summation of the individual characteristics that make this type of pistol great (ergonomics, ammo, reputation, etc.).

Everything in this world, especially firearms-related stuff, is subject to individual interpretation. That being said, in the case of the 1911, many individuals, especially Filipinos, come to more-or-less the same interpretation. This, in a way, is a good thing, because it just ensures that the endurance/longevity of the 1911 is not just hype or blown out of proportion, but it is an honest-to-goodness culmination of many individual experiences that reiterate just how spectacular this particular weapons system is. As in any weapons system, however, there is a caveat, and that caveat is dependent on the training / familiarization / confidence that the user / operator has in it. If you have trained with it, and are comfortable with its advantages and disadvantages, then I do believe there is no better handgun weapons system out there than the 1911.

At this point, I could probably say a lot more, but I think I will just leave it at this for now. Suffice it to say, i know what I carry, i am confident in it, and I have made my choice. If you have made the same choice with whatever system you have on you, then good for you. There is room enough for all of our favorites. As for me, well, I don't see myself giving up on my Para anytime soon - or ever! :supergrin:

178389

This is what my Para looks like (if you take away the finish and the fact that this is just a single stack...well, you get the idea:rofl:)