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Evela
07-18-2009, 08:03
To begin, thanks in advance for your help and observations.

Background: I bought a G-34 for range & self defense, soon to be followed by a G-26 (carry). I truly love these two pistols. I've left the G-34 as is except for a light polish on the trigger, etc. I added only a captive SS guide rod with the stock spring. I now envision this pistol for the range, maybe some IDPA to improve and maintain my defensive skills. The G-26: 3.5 lb Glock connector, NY#1 spring, with a Glock's extended slide release and extended mag release. And Wolff hardened steel, non-captured guide rods/tubes, again using stock springs.

My main concerns are my use of the steel guide rod(s) in these pistols. My goal was strength, smoothness and reliability first, and improved accuracy & reduced muzzle flip second. I do know that the plastic rods have been known to wear, chip and break.

First question: will the steel rods serve these goals? Are there any negatives to using them?

Next, I have read two interesting claims: first, that the stock plastic guide rods are designed to flex, and it is claimed that this flex serves to promote harmonic balance. It was claimed that a steel rod has the opposite effect, ie to cause harmonic imbalance and perhaps damage the slide in some way, say pounding for example.

Second, I also saw one report that the hole in the stock plastic rod is purposeful, and somehow acts as a cool air pump! If true, I'm not clear what effect a steel rod would have. My own sense is that these two rare claims have little validity, except for the fact that both were made by seemingly competent resources (Remtek and Robar guns).

So in sum:

1. Will the steel guide rods add reliability and strength?

2. Will they aid accuracy?

3. Will they reduce muzzle flip?

4. Are there any reasons to avoid steel, eg damage to the gun?

5. Are the claims re the stock plastic rods adding flex and harmonic balance, or cooling air valid?

Again, my sincere thanks. These matters are of concern to many ordinary shooters. BTW, I really don't want to hear that the Glock is perfect and reliable, don't mess with it - as much as I believe the Glock is a fantastic design, it certainly can be upgraded with care.

Orange
07-18-2009, 13:22
There are Glock pistols in original factory stock condition that have gone beyond 100,000 rounds.

There are several armies across the globe that issue Glock pistols to their personnel in factory stock condition.

Steel guide rods are a gimmick.

I have an all original 1st generation G17. It still has the uncaptured polymer guide rod from the factory. It has never jammed. It has never malfunctioned.

The picture below is my G17 I am writing about.

RMolina628
07-18-2009, 14:53
ditto, stock rods will work just fine

dne752
07-18-2009, 14:57
:popcorn:

Jack23
07-18-2009, 15:01
+1! If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times. It is not likely that you will build a better pistol than Gaston. Forget the trigger stuff, forget the ss guide rod. Just take it out of the box and let 'er rip. It comes ready to go. Really. 99% of the time people have problem with their Glocks you will find that they have been tinkering. If you want a gun that has to be reinvented before it's any good get you a Kimber or some such.

There are Glock pistols in original factory stock condition that have gone beyond 100,000 rounds.

There are several armies across the globe that issue Glock pistols to their personnel in factory stock condition.

Steel guide rods are a gimmick.

I have an all original 1st generation G17. It still has the uncaptured polymer guide rod from the factory. It has never jammed. It has never malfunctioned.

The picture below is my G17 I am writing about.

Evela
07-18-2009, 20:10
If I may be so bold as to quote myself...

BTW, I really don't want to hear that the Glock is perfect and reliable, don't mess with it - as much as I believe the Glock is a fantastic design, it certainly can be upgraded with care.

OK, now that we have hopefully survived the invasion of "Glock is perfect" gang - which I'd hoped to avoid, silly me - I'd respectfully invite the non-koolaid drinkers to come forth and kindly address my questions and concerns. I know there are lots of you out there in Glockland who have traded in your plastic guide rods for your own good reasons.

Thanks.

VN350X10
07-18-2009, 20:47
I shoot USPSA in various classes.
My production gun is a G34 with some trigger mods right around 2 3/4 lb pull & to prevent flex, the STOCK guide rod is fitted with a pc. of stainless steel welding rod. The hole in the stock rod is perfect, the SS insert prevents flex.
If you use an aftermarket metal rod, it needs lube. Lube attracts dirt. bad juju !
The less lube, the less chance of dirt buildup & better reliability.
I've also done this on my G20 for the same reason, except I spent the 15 bucks for the tungsten rod from Alchemy.
Only difference......my wallet was lighter !

uncle albert

VN350X10
07-18-2009, 20:50
have to add, I bought the tungsten rod first, then I analyzed what & why I did it.
Should have thought first, prior to spending.

uncle albert

dne752
07-19-2009, 06:44
have to add, I bought the tungsten rod first, then I analyzed what & why I did it.
Should have thought first, prior to spending.

uncle albert


Would the tungsten rod need to be lubed?

VN350X10
07-19-2009, 07:45
I should have been more clear in my explanation. The tungsten is an INSERT that fits inside of the stock plastic rod to prevent flex.
just like my piece of free stainless welding rod.

uncle albert

GRR
07-19-2009, 08:00
[QUOTE=Evela;13396360]To begin, thanks in advance for your help and observations.

So in sum:

1. Will the steel guide rods add reliability and strength?

2. Will they aid accuracy?

3. Will they reduce muzzle flip?

4. Are there any reasons to avoid steel, eg damage to the gun?

5. Are the claims re the stock plastic rods adding flex and harmonic balance, or cooling air valid?

QUOTE]

1. No.
2. No.
3. No. I can't tell any difference.
4. Yes. Mainly additional expense wth no real benefit.
5. No.

Evela
07-19-2009, 10:15
Thanks once again for those of you who addressed the question seriously, and shared your views.

I'd like to offer a couple more observations. Dave Sevigny is well known to most all of us, and is known for shooting minimally modified Glocks in all the competitive classes, from IDPA to unlimited and open. As (now) a rep for Glock he does believe that the stock Glock is pretty wonderful right out of the box. In fact, he doesn't cherry pick the Glocks he uses, as he feels that Glock's QC is that good "that it wouldn't make a difference", as he puts it.

Still, one of the minor mods he does to all his Glocks - from Production to Open - is to replace the plastic guide rods. Inasmuch as top competitors demand it all - reliability, predictability, smoothness and accuracy - I have got to believe that these factors weighed heavily on his decision to use (mostly) SS rods.

Second observation: earlier on, the ONLY mod I made to my stock G-34 was to lightly polish the trigger/striker. This was successful. However, I also noticed that the Glock slide, among other features, is designed loose. And this absolutely affects accuracy - a trade off, a bit of accuracy for a lot of reliability. Even so the accuracy is reasonable and exceeds the abilities of most shooters.

As a result of this looseness, many of us may have noticed that when you pull the trigger, the slide drops slightly when the trigger bar hits the connector. You can sometimes feel, but will surely see the slide moving up and down a bit as the trigger bar descends! This movement has been estimated at around 20 thousands on all but the subcompacts - enough to affect fine aiming. Many competitors have the slide "tightened" for this reason. I didn't and wouldn't. Too much trouble, and it's more than possible to overtighten the slide, lose reliability or even to ruin the slide.

No way.

As a result of this thread, I decided to recheck the play on my relatively new G-34 slide (which used to be notably obvious). With an Arotek captured SS rod installed, the play is gone - or is so small as to be invisible, and I was looking close. SS rod - less play - more consistency and (slightly) improved accuracy. At least that's how I see it.


Bottom line:

I believe that Sevigny and others exchange the plastic out for good reasons. My guess is that the SS works to improve function, smoothness and reliable consistency insofar as better controlling what is a loose slide by design.

Although infrequent, there are many, many reports of chipped, worn and failed plastic rods - failures which have led those owners, and inspired others, to install steel. Even though the plastic is designed as a hollow tube (no doubt to increase stiffness), they still flex.

When they bend - and they do, however slightly - it would be impossible to predict in what direction, or what effect that has on the loose slides alignment before, during and after the shot.

*********

Aside: as to "aftermarket (ie metal) guide rods need lube", not so fast.

The G-26's (and other subcompacts) two spring rods are metal (outer), and plastic (inner). The Glock manual does not recommend lubing any of their guide rods, metal or not. Further, take a good look at your plastic rods - doesn't take a whole lot of rounds before they start to look pretty nasty, scraped and scratched by contact with the spring(s). Either they need lubing (they don't) or it doesn't matter (it doesn't).

Jack23
07-19-2009, 21:53
WOW! That was a most intelligent and thoughtful post. I believe that I can agree with you point for point. I still choose not to do any mods to my Glocks because the way/level I shoot does not require it. I do understand that there are those that have the experience, knowledge, and skill to make mods themselves and may actually get the results they seek by doing so.

In my previous post in this thread I was thinking about the people, like me, that love to shoot and do it often and are not without some skills in target shooting but never compete or persue what I call "bullseye" shooting. I do that with my .22s only. With my Glocks I shoot only silhouette targets and I can pretty much always get that one ragged hole COM, head, thoracic area at distances of up to 35 feet or so. My patterns tend to spread a bit at 50 feet but not that much.

I was also refering to most of the people that get into trouble when they "tinker" because they don't know what they are doing. And wind up causing themselves more problems than they are solving.

I know it's cool to come on GT and brag about all the goodies you put on your Glock and you did it yourself but in my opinion most of us don't really need it or get any benifit from doing it.

After reading your last post I can see that you do not fall into that category. You obviously have the experience and ability and shoot at the level that calls for a little tweaking. I know there are more shooters like you in here and it was never my intention to be negative of to offend any of you.

Thanks once again for those of you who addressed the question seriously, and shared your views.

I'd like to offer a couple more observations. Dave Sevigny is well known to most all of us, and is known for shooting minimally modified Glocks in all the competitive classes, from IDPA to unlimited and open. As (now) a rep for Glock he does believe that the stock Glock is pretty wonderful right out of the box. In fact, he doesn't cherry pick the Glocks he uses, as he feels that Glock's QC is that good "that it wouldn't make a difference", as he puts it.

Still, one of the minor mods he does to all his Glocks - from Production to Open - is to replace the plastic guide rods. Inasmuch as top competitors demand it all - reliability, predictability, smoothness and accuracy - I have got to believe that these factors weighed heavily on his decision to use (mostly) SS rods.

Second observation: earlier on, the ONLY mod I made to my stock G-34 was to lightly polish the trigger/striker. This was successful. However, I also noticed that the Glock slide, among other features, is designed loose. And this absolutely affects accuracy - a trade off, a bit of accuracy for a lot of reliability. Even so the accuracy is reasonable and exceeds the abilities of most shooters.

As a result of this looseness, many of us may have noticed that when you pull the trigger, the slide drops slightly when the trigger bar hits the connector. You can sometimes feel, but will surely see the slide moving up and down a bit as the trigger bar descends! This movement has been estimated at around 20 thousands on all but the subcompacts - enough to affect fine aiming. Many competitors have the slide "tightened" for this reason. I didn't and wouldn't. Too much trouble, and it's more than possible to overtighten the slide, lose reliability or even to ruin the slide.

No way.

As a result of this thread, I decided to recheck the play on my relatively new G-34 slide (which used to be notably obvious). With an Arotek captured SS rod installed, the play is gone - or is so small as to be invisible, and I was looking close. SS rod - less play - more consistency and (slightly) improved accuracy. At least that's how I see it.


Bottom line:

I believe that Sevigny and others exchange the plastic out for good reasons. My guess is that the SS works to improve function, smoothness and reliable consistency insofar as better controlling what is a loose slide by design.

Although infrequent, there are many, many reports of chipped, worn and failed plastic rods - failures which have led those owners, and inspired others, to install steel. Even though the plastic is designed as a hollow tube (no doubt to increase stiffness), they still flex.

When they bend - and they do, however slightly - it would be impossible to predict in what direction, or what effect that has on the loose slides alignment before, during and after the shot.

*********

Aside: as to "aftermarket (ie metal) guide rods need lube", not so fast.

The G-26's (and other subcompacts) two spring rods are metal (outer), and plastic (inner). The Glock manual does not recommend lubing any of their guide rods, metal or not. Further, take a good look at your plastic rods - doesn't take a whole lot of rounds before they start to look pretty nasty, scraped and scratched by contact with the spring(s). Either they need lubing (they don't) or it doesn't matter (it doesn't).

Blackjack33
07-20-2009, 13:04
I wouldn't be surprised to find that Dave Sevigny changes to SS for the added weight at the muzzle to aid in getting back on target as quickly as possible, more so than reliability. Having said that, I have experienced guide rod breakage in a G22, that probably would not have occurred with a metal rod.

kymarkh
07-20-2009, 13:41
I have the Wolff gunsprings steel recoil rod and recoil spring in my G34 and like it. My intention was to add a little weight 'out front' and it does that. It also allows you to experiment with different strength recoil springs which is important to the folks who handload. It was cheaper than the tungsten ones but still much heavier than the stock setup.

It does change the way the pistol recoils between quick repeated shots somewhat, but the difference is not something the casual shooter (less than 250 rounds per week on a regular basis with the same pistol??? - I'm guessing) would notice. It's not like bolting on a comp or anything.

This may sound odd, but the first time I went to the range and changed from stock to the steel unit I found it harder to 'track' the front sight on recoil. It took me several trips to the range to get used to the difference in the direction(s) the sight went on recoil. Now that I'm used to it I much prefer the steel rod to the stock setup.

I look at it this way - if you really are at the fine-tuning stage and want to try a tungsten guide rod then have at it. It's not going to break your G34 - I've put over 5000 rounds on the wolff rod and other than the finish it's held up just fine.

Nowdays with 3 kids under 5 I don't get out to the range enough to notice the small things like I used to but I still think the weight out front makes it easier to shoot the 34 fast.

fastbolt
07-20-2009, 14:30
Sorry, but I don't buy the "Ram Air induction/cooling theory" for guide rods. :rofl:

On a more serious note, I do suspect that the use of plastic guide rods is due more to cost of manufacturing than anything else. It will generally work well enough for its intended role and is inexpensive to mass produce. It can also be replaced rather inexpensively, too.

I wouldn't be surprised but that if firearms manufacturers could find a way to make a plastic recoil spring that they would start using those, too. ;)

It's not all surprising to find that a solid (metal) recoil guide rod can influence slide travel during the recoil cycle and even how the pistol feels under recoil. There are still folks who enjoy debating the relative merits & disadvantages of full length guide rods in 1911's versus the original short guide, after all ...

I think the perceptions of the buying public has made the commercial sale of metal guide rods for some polymer pistols a profitable business nowadays.

When S&W was finally starting with a blank sheet of paper to R&D their own polymer pistol design they decided to use the more expensive metal guide rod, although they opted for a captured design which is intended to be replaced as entire assembly and not just the spring. They also kept the cost reasonable with the metal guide rod & recoil spring assembly costing only about $10, too. We were told during an armorer class that the selection of the metal guide rod was for made for reasons of enhanced durability. Maybe so ...

BuckyP
07-20-2009, 14:42
I've many rounds through both types and neither has effected function. One advantage to a thick steel, non captured guide rod is that it is easier to swap out springs and a thicker guide rod works better with round coil springs like Wolff. I haven't been able to find a thick non captured guide rod in polymer.

One thing to consider, as far as I know a steel guide rod is not allowed in a GLOCK for IDPA Stock Service Pistol.

Jager1147
07-20-2009, 14:45
1. Will the steel guide rods add reliability and strength? Nope.

2. Will they aid accuracy? Nope.

3. Will they reduce muzzle flip? No, but sights will return faster to target with lighter springs. An aftermarket guide rod will allow you to change springs easily. See second link below.

4. Are there any reasons to avoid steel, eg damage to the gun? Nope.

5. Are the claims re the stock plastic rods adding flex and harmonic balance, or cooling air valid? Nope.


http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=996315&page=4 Post # 81 (so I don't simply re-type a previous post)

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1029485 Post # 24, and ecmills post # 2 is on the money.

You can usually depend on the R & D of USPSA competitive shooters to sort out what mods are worthwhile and which ones are not.

jager

Evela
07-20-2009, 20:16
I like Jaeger' style. Nope, nope, nope, nope and nope. Any real explanation? Nope. Bit too brief? Yup. BTW, I'm one of those guys who actually read the links, well, just to see.

And in one link, he also said:

Post 64: "There's always been debate about this, but in my opinion a good place to look is at top USPSA competitors. I've been shooting USPSA matches for about 15 years, and if you look at your typical Glock shooter in all divisions, including production, the vast majority switch to a steel guide rod. Many competitors shoot tens of thousands of rounds a year, and it's evident that steel guide rods do no harm. The advantages are smoother cycling, the ability to change recoil springs, and added weight."

Pardon me for pointing out the elephant on the range, but what accrues from the admitted additional smoothness and added weight? There isn't a competitor alive who doesn't have one and the same ultimate and immutable goal:

Reliable fast accuracy.

If the SS/tungsten metal rods didn't work toward that ultimate goal, if plastic was better, then plastic would be all you'd see. And the notion that it's all about changing springs is not true. In IDPA-SSP (where you can't use metal) Dave Sevigny simply knocks the cap off his stock Glock plastic and uses it as an uncaptured stock plastic rod. He can change his springs to his heart's content on a stock rod. But in every other competition, any other class, it's almost always SS, and occasionally tungsten.

For good reason. It works for reliable fast accuracy. It works to win. In the end, for carry or competition we share that goal.

Evela
07-21-2009, 19:10
I said:

There isn't a competitor alive who doesn't have one and the same ultimate and immutable goal:

Reliable fast accuracy.And I would have bet my first born on this. I was wrong, at least so far as Dave Sevigny is involved. And I quote:

Question: do SS/tungsten rods improve your accuracy? Sevigny:

"The short answer is not particularly. For as much shooting as I do, I prefer the rods for the reasons mentioned earlier. I leave my carry guns as they come from the factory except for the sights... Also, the steel Wolff rod is easier to reassemble and fit into position versus the polymer stock rod with the end cap removed."

I wouldn't feel right without straightening my own butt out. Jaeger - and Sevigny - agree that the accuracy is NOT the primary reason for going to SS. Most do it, it may just be that ease in spring changes is the motivator. I also had a chance to talk with Glock. Of course they gave the standard "we don't recommend aftermarket parts" talk; but they added that the plastic rod flex is intentional and considered an important part of their design/goals.

Reality bites, and I got bit. I do everything 110% and screwing up is no exception. I'll likely go back to stock plastic. But it's been a fun thread, and I sincerely thank all who both agreed and disagreed with me.

To your health!
<o:p></o:p>

Jager1147
07-22-2009, 12:32
Thanks Evela.

I believe the latest Glock Armory course recommends that the recoil assmbly is replaced every two thousand rounds. It's true that the stock recoil assembly will last tens of thousands of rounds. So will the sights.

And to be clear, aftermarket guide rods do not improve accuracy. The heavier rods do affect how quickly the sights return, coupled with a recoil spring tuned to a specific load (the important part). Many times in USPSA competition a few coils are clipped off to achieve the perfect tuning.

However, the stock Glock recoil assembly contains a 17 lb. spring, which is not ideal for ALL their small frame pistol calibers. The G17, G17L, G34, G22, G35, G37, G31, - ALL use the same 17 Lb. recoil spring, regardless of caliber or slide weight. Will it function? Sure, if that's all your after. The purpose of replacing the guide rod is not to improve reliability, it's for tuning and customization.

My earlier post # 78 in the first thread link.

I thought it would be a good idea to dispell any myths I believe are out there as a guide rod manufacturer myself. Maybe Dave would like my Polymer captured guide rods....

BuckyP
07-22-2009, 13:19
Someone needs to make a thick, non captured polymer guide rod. Thick so that Wolff springs will work properly.

Silly rule in IDPA, not allowing a steel guide rod just because it doesn't come that way. Yet the M&P (single action no less) can replace the lightweight hollow metal guide rod with a thick solid guide rod just because it is "made of the same material". :upeyes:

Jager1147
07-22-2009, 16:05
Someone needs to make a thick, non captured polymer guide rod. Thick so that Wolff springs will work properly.

Silly rule in IDPA, not allowing a steel guide rod just because it doesn't come that way. Yet the M&P (single action no less) can replace the lightweight hollow metal guide rod with a thick solid guide rod just because it is "made of the same material". :upeyes:

Our Polymer guide rods are IDPA legal in SSP Division now, since they are the same material. We are the ONLY manufacturer to offer this. If there's enough interest, I'll make some in the larger diameter in an uncaptured version.

HiredGun77
07-23-2009, 10:34
I have Wolf stainless guide rods for both my G23 and G20. I bought them mainly to try different spring rates. The first thing I noticed is how much louder the the pistol is when I rack the slides. The stainless rods create a lot of drag and noise with the springs sliding/dragging on them. Switching back to plastic and they function so much smoother and quieter. The stainless rods also need a lot of lube to keep them running right or I start getting wierd malfuctions. I have since switched back to factory rods for carry and only use the stainless ones when I use my nuclear powered handloads for hunting and need stouter recoil springs.

I think the tungsten ones might be better as they are much harder and the springs may slide better on them.

BuckyP
07-23-2009, 13:25
Our Polymer guide rods are IDPA legal in SSP Division now, since they are the same material. We are the ONLY manufacturer to offer this. If there's enough interest, I'll make some in the larger diameter in an uncaptured version.

Yep, I have three of them. It's a lot easier than trying to replace a spring on the factory guide rod. However, I didn't like the way the Wolff traditional coil springs fit on it, so I am using the ISMI flat springs (like I did with the factory rod). I'd be in for several that were thicker, ie mimicking the diameter of the current steel versions.

Steve in Az
07-29-2009, 16:22
Steel guide rods are a harmless upgrade. Are they stronger, more reliable than stock? I've seen and heard of broken oem rods (albeit RARE), I have never heard of a single breakage of a steel rod--so decide for yourself. They do NOT enhance accuracy, though they do potentially provide better balance by adding some weight out front--which indirectly could possibly improve accuracy. I've run stainless rods for many years just simply because I like the better build quality of a steel rod, and for 20 bucks, why not?

Some prefer the stock setup to keep the gun weight to a minimum, I think that is a smart idea as well, especially for concealed carry where you are looking for anyway to make the gun more comfortable to pack.

Evela
01-01-2010, 08:04
FWIW, I did decide to stick with my steel guide rods and they have been flawless. YMMV.

ricklee4570
01-04-2010, 05:59
I have seen one factory plastic guide rod break, but it did not affect the function of the pistol at all, and was not noticed until the weapon was broke down for cleaning.

roadgrader
01-04-2010, 17:13
After using my stock G27 for months I finally decided on 1 mod. I installed an extended mag release because for me, it's easier to use that way. Everything else is stock.

beatcop
01-05-2010, 19:01
I've seen one g-19 fail to go into battery due to a small chunk of a plastic guide rod chipping off and ending up between the hood and the slide. You're out of business for a few minutes when that happens...can't take it down.

It was a dept pistol that had prob seen <500 rds...some +p+ though.

toshbar
01-14-2010, 16:52
The stock one is perfectly fine, but I had a gift card to use so i bought a stainless one with a new recoil spring. New spring was notable stiffer even though the stock one only had 700 rounds through it.

faawrenchbndr
01-14-2010, 17:36
I've always udsed the stock ones and had great luck with them.
I replace at 4k ronds fired or if I find a chip. I can honestly say,
I've NEVER had a Glock malfunction on me.

onalandline
02-22-2010, 08:05
+1! If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times. It is not likely that you will build a better pistol than Gaston. Forget the trigger stuff, forget the ss guide rod. Just take it out of the box and let 'er rip. It comes ready to go. Really. 99% of the time people have problem with their Glocks you will find that they have been tinkering. If you want a gun that has to be reinvented before it's any good get you a Kimber or some such.

Here's an extreme example of what can go wrong when messing with your stock Glock...

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11fcg543Jow

Duck of Death
02-23-2010, 17:19
Recommend you put a Wolff uncaptured in the G26, the factory will let go and it WILL tie up the gun.

I put steel in mine except for my SSP G34, even made 2 GRs out of 1911 full length GRs for my open G34s 'cause I wanted to use ISMI springs.

JohnKSa
02-23-2010, 21:12
...the factory will let go and it WILL tie up the gun.What do you mean by let go?

Duck of Death
02-24-2010, 09:27
The flange holding the big spring will break releasing the spring, this renders the gun inoperable.

HiredGun77
02-24-2010, 17:45
A Glock will run with no guide rod if you could get it together. I saw a 1000 round in under 14 minutes torture test where the guide rod broke at about 800 rounds and slid out the end and the gun and it ran the last couple hundred rounds perfect.

See it here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_JuF23qazI

JohnKSa
02-24-2010, 20:09
The flange holding the big spring will break releasing the spring, this renders the gun inoperable.Are you talking about the retention device on the forward end of the recoil spring guide? It is under no pressure when the gun is assembled. It only retains the spring when the recoil spring assembly is out of the gun.

toshbar
02-24-2010, 20:20
Are you talking about the retention device on the forward end of the recoil spring guide? It is under no pressure when the gun is assembled. It only retains the spring when the recoil spring assembly is out of the gun.
pretty sure he's talking about the one that butts up against the locking block.

beemerphile
02-24-2010, 20:28
I have Glocks with the aftermarket metal rods and Glocks with the stock rods. Frankly I cannot tell the difference after many years. The stock parts work fine and leave more money in the pocket. If I had the decision to do over, I'd leave them stock and buy a few spares (which I have done).

JohnKSa
02-24-2010, 20:41
pretty sure he's talking about the one that butts up against the locking block.The rear end of the recoil spring guide is never in contact with any metal parts except when the slide is off the firearm.

When the slide is installed the rear of the spring guide sits against a flat plastic ledge in the frame that supports the bottom half of the rear of the recoil spring guide.

The top half of the rear end of the recoil spring guide never touches anything while the gun is assembled.

tmd11111
02-26-2010, 05:51
I have a stainless guide rod in mine for no other reason then to stimulate the economy. That $25 was just burning a hole in my pocket.
All kidding aside. Its been in my G35 for about 500 or so rounds and I cant tell any difference from the factory one.

Bren
02-26-2010, 06:23
So in sum:

1. Will the steel guide rods add reliability and strength?


Doubtful - I have heard stories from shooters about metal guiderods causing malfunctions, but those have always been with tungsten, not SS. However, I've had 100% reliability (literally not malfunction of any kind ever) for 20 years using plastic, so I stick with them. When my brother's police department adopted the Glock 25, he and another trooper tried to cause on to malfunction by taking a big box of loaded magazines and bump-firing them as fast as possible, trading out when one got tired of firing, until the gun got too hot to handle and the guiderod started to bend from overheating, but it never did quit working. made him a believer.
[/quote]
2. Will they aid accuracy?
[/quote]

Not in any way you'd notice. Any stock Glock will easily shoot the X ring out of a B27 target at 25 yards. With all stock parts the gun will shoot better than you can shoot it. If I recall correctly, Dave Sevigny, who shoiots more rounds in a year than we will in a lifetime and has won both the USPSA and IDPA nationals in the same year with a Glock, uses the plastic one. When you can beat him, you nmight benefit from a part change.

3. Will they reduce muzzle flip?

Not noticeably, although you may get a short term "I spent money on it so it must be shooting better" effect. Proper grip and the right ammo are the only 2 real solutions to muzzle flip.

5. Are the claims re the stock plastic rods adding flex and harmonic balance, or cooling air valid?

I don't know, but I do know they work perfectly for many thousands of rounds and I've never had one fail. I think changing things without knowing you are changing for the better is foolish. The only reason I would change guide rods is for a competition gun where I wanted to be able to experiment with recoil springs a little (and I ahve a stainless rod in my parts box for that purpose).

Bren
02-26-2010, 06:30
The flange holding the big spring will break releasing the spring, this renders the gun inoperable.

That happen to you a lot?

I've been shooting Glocks since about 1989-90 with a lot of police officers also shooting Glocks. My wife has been shooting Glocks in competition, as have I, for 6-7 years. My brother and cousin work for a police department that issues thousands of Glocks and shoots a lot of rounds of full power ammo through them (and they're .40's:wow:), they both work in special operations, where they train on the range a lot and they shoot in competition. I work for 1 level of government above their department, where we have several LE agencies under us, all issuing Glocks. A large percentage of the people I shoot IDPA with shoot Glocks.

In all that time, I have never seen a guide rod fail or had it happen to anybody I know. Somehow I only see this stuff on Glocktalk.

PS: Also no kabooms, other than one where a load of Master Cartridge reloads kaboomed a Glock and a S&W revolver during the same range session - the Glock was still shootable, the revolver was not.

riverrat
02-28-2010, 21:13
OK YMMV. But fo me its Yep (plastic does break and has broken on one of my pistols), nope, nope (more sophisticated shooters may be able to feel a difference), nope, nope.

For most shooters, I say leave it alone. If you shoot a bunch, get the steel guide rod.

Actually, one of my first gens (the one with the gold guts) had a steel guide rod. I think Glock went to plastic because it works for several thousand rounds and its cheaper.


BTW - can someone tell me how to attach a quote at the bottom of a post? I'm an old tech challenged guy.

Bren
03-01-2010, 04:42
If I may be so bold as to quote myself...



OK, now that we have hopefully survived the invasion of "Glock is perfect" gang - which I'd hoped to avoid, silly me - I'd respectfully invite the non-koolaid drinkers to come forth and kindly address my questions and concerns. I know there are lots of you out there in Glockland who have traded in your plastic guide rods for your own good reasons.

Thanks.


In short, you only want to hear from people who say you are right about improving the Glock with a new guide rod. If some of us who have been instructing and shooting for 20+ years say you are wrong and the stock guiderod is best, we are Koolaid drinkers and you don't want to hear from us. Good thinking.:upeyes:

beemerphile
03-01-2010, 06:28
In short, you only want to hear from people who say you are right about improving the Glock with a new guide rod.

"None is so wise as he who agrees with you."

Nothing is learned, but the ego is upheld.

Don-wayne
03-02-2010, 19:52
I also use a G-34 in competition. Mine is totally tricked out 2 1/2lb trig,Steel guide rod,Dawson sights hand fit kkm barrel etc..etc.... My Glock is no less reliable than when it was new 100% before and after. The reasons for my upgrades are as follows. I wanted better sights. I shoot hard cast lead. I love a light crisp trigger. The steel rod was just one of those things. I shoot around 20,000 or more rounds a year and figured the plastic guide rod to be the chink in my armor. All that said Glock is fine stock but if your into competition you can improve it greatly.
I did all the work myself and Glock may be the easiest gun to work on. Fitting the KKM gunsmith barrel took less than 45 min. I still love Glock barrels but I shoot to much lead.

patman
03-09-2010, 21:56
Here's an extreme example of what can go wrong when messing with your stock Glock...

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11fcg543Jow

That wasn't caused by messing with a stock Glock.That was caused by the idiot shooting it.

onalandline
03-11-2010, 13:46
That wasn't caused by messing with a stock Glock.That was caused by the idiot shooting it.

True, those fools shouldn't even be around guns.

patman
03-11-2010, 17:20
True, those fools shouldn't even be around guns.

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not,but the guy shot himself in the hand.Can't blame the pistol for that.

onalandline
03-12-2010, 07:30
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not,but the guy shot himself in the hand.Can't blame the pistol for that.

I was. The guy couldn't even hold on to the thing.

Jager1147
03-12-2010, 20:13
Steel guide rods are a harmless upgrade. Are they stronger, more reliable than stock? I've seen and heard of broken oem rods (albeit RARE), I have never heard of a single breakage of a steel rod--so decide for yourself. They do NOT enhance accuracy, though they do potentially provide better balance by adding some weight out front--which indirectly could possibly improve accuracy. I've run stainless rods for many years just simply because I like the better build quality of a steel rod, and for 20 bucks, why not?

Some prefer the stock setup to keep the gun weight to a minimum, I think that is a smart idea as well, especially for concealed carry where you are looking for anyway to make the gun more comfortable to pack.

From a competition standpoint - Exactly. And another primary benefit is the ability to change recoil springs. I think the G17 is oversprung at 17 lbs. Also you can get rid of that horrible screech the stock assembly gives you when you rack the slide. With the Gen 4's Glock finally saw the flaw in perfection with their guide rods - they should have also done something with the plastic sights. Maybe Gen 5's....

Again from a competition standpoint - Glock uses a stock 17 lb. spring as an economical choice to use the same spring for the 9mm, .357 sig., .40 S&W, 45 ACP, 45 GAP and 10mm in all standard and large frame pistols. Does it work? Of course. But from an engineering standpoint it's simply not ideal to use the same spring for all calibers, and also for all slide weights within the same caliber.

patman
03-13-2010, 01:58
From a competition standpoint - Exactly. And another primary benefit is the ability to change recoil springs. I think the G17 is oversprung at 17 lbs. Also you can get rid of that horrible screech the stock assembly gives you when you rack the slide. With the Gen 4's Glock finally saw the flaw in perfection with their guide rods - they should have also done something with the plastic sights. Maybe Gen 5's....

Again from a competition standpoint - Glock uses a stock 17 lb. spring as an economical choice to use the same spring for the 9mm, .357 sig., .40 S&W, 45 ACP, 45 GAP and 10mm in all standard and large frame pistols. Does it work? Of course. But from an engineering standpoint it's simply not ideal to use the same spring for all calibers, and also for all slide weights within the same caliber.

You only listed three REAL calibers.The other two were DOA.:supergrin::supergrin:

onalandline
03-13-2010, 07:21
From a competition standpoint - Exactly. And another primary benefit is the ability to change recoil springs. I think the G17 is oversprung at 17 lbs. Also you can get rid of that horrible screech the stock assembly gives you when you rack the slide. With the Gen 4's Glock finally saw the flaw in perfection with their guide rods - they should have also done something with the plastic sights. Maybe Gen 5's....

Again from a competition standpoint - Glock uses a stock 17 lb. spring as an economical choice to use the same spring for the 9mm, .357 sig., .40 S&W, 45 ACP, 45 GAP and 10mm in all standard and large frame pistols. Does it work? Of course. But from an engineering standpoint it's simply not ideal to use the same spring for all calibers, and also for all slide weights within the same caliber.

I am pretty sure they are still mostly plastic.

eisman
03-13-2010, 07:43
One of the parts I used to see break with regularity was the factory guide rod. It usually failes at the base, tearing in the 90 degree angle between the base and the shaft.

For the guys who like the weight forward, have one made with tungsten. I did a few back 15+ years ago.

patman
03-16-2010, 20:34
The stainless steel guide rod I ordered showed up today.I don't mind that it is shinny,but I do wish it didn't say "Glockmeister" on it.A little emery cloth will fix it up easy enough.It uses stock Glock springs and looks to be of very good quality.Now if my pistol would just show up so I can install it and do some shooting.:supergrin:

BuckyP
03-16-2010, 21:04
My Wolf guide rod and springs showed up today. Does anyone know if these are ok to use for GSSF? There happens to be a match tomorrow and I'd like to try it out.

j-glock22
03-16-2010, 21:20
do a YT search for the Glock 1000 rd torture test. OEM plastic guide rod used. It did break but after 700 some rounds fired in less than 15 minutes non stop.
Think a metal rod and spring will hold up to that?
'Nuff said.

BuckyP
03-17-2010, 05:06
do a YT search for the Glock 1000 rd torture test. OEM plastic guide rod used. It did break but after 700 some rounds fired in less than 15 minutes non stop.
Think a metal rod and spring will hold up to that?
'Nuff said.

Actually, I think a steel guide rod would hold up to that, and likely more.

toshbar
03-17-2010, 07:52
Actually, I think a steel guide rod would hold up to that, and likely more.
Mine is stainless steel. Mobetta than regular steel.

BuckyP
03-17-2010, 08:25
Mine is stainless steel. Mobetta than regular steel.

Sounds like a person problem. :tongueout:

onalandline
03-17-2010, 14:59
do a YT search for the Glock 1000 rd torture test. OEM plastic guide rod used. It did break but after 700 some rounds fired in less than 15 minutes non stop.
Think a metal rod and spring will hold up to that?
'Nuff said.

They were able to fire the remaining rounds without a guide rod.

Jager1147
03-17-2010, 15:16
My Wolf guide rod and springs showed up today. Does anyone know if these are ok to use for GSSF? There happens to be a match tomorrow and I'd like to try it out.

No, not OK for GSSF unless your shooting Unlimited Division.

Patman, I know this is not the proper forum to plug but our guide rods are BLACK.

JohnKSa
03-17-2010, 21:34
I have one of Jager's steel rods in my Glock 17L. My 17L wouldn't function properly with the stock guide rod but works perfectly with the replacement.

I run stock recoil spring assemblies in my other Glocks, but I'd shop Jager's first if I decided to change one of the others out. And for those who like the Glock concept of a polymer recoil guide but want a non-captured recoil spring, Jager's the only supplier I know of who sells uncaptured polymer guide rods.

patman
03-17-2010, 21:38
No, not OK for GSSF unless your shooting Unlimited Division.

Patman, I know this is not the proper forum to plug but our guide rods are BLACK.

I'll check them out.Do they use stock Glock springs?

patman
03-17-2010, 21:40
I took a look and don't see one listed for the G27.

BuckyP
03-18-2010, 08:15
I got to shoot with the Wolf unit installed last night. I swapped them back and forth (between the stock one), and the Wolf feels much smoother. However, I do think that it's the springs that make the feel smoother, that the wound round spring works smoother than the flat wound. YMMV.

SteadyGlock
03-25-2010, 00:52
Thanks once again for those of you who addressed the question seriously, and shared your views.

I'd like to offer a couple more observations. Dave Sevigny is well known to most all of us, and is known for shooting minimally modified Glocks in all the competitive classes, from IDPA to unlimited and open. As (now) a rep for Glock he does believe that the stock Glock is pretty wonderful right out of the box. In fact, he doesn't cherry pick the Glocks he uses, as he feels that Glock's QC is that good "that it wouldn't make a difference", as he puts it.

Still, one of the minor mods he does to all his Glocks - from Production to Open - is to replace the plastic guide rods. Inasmuch as top competitors demand it all - reliability, predictability, smoothness and accuracy - I have got to believe that these factors weighed heavily on his decision to use (mostly) SS rods.

Second observation: earlier on, the ONLY mod I made to my stock G-34 was to lightly polish the trigger/striker. This was successful. However, I also noticed that the Glock slide, among other features, is designed loose. And this absolutely affects accuracy - a trade off, a bit of accuracy for a lot of reliability. Even so the accuracy is reasonable and exceeds the abilities of most shooters.

As a result of this looseness, many of us may have noticed that when you pull the trigger, the slide drops slightly when the trigger bar hits the connector. You can sometimes feel, but will surely see the slide moving up and down a bit as the trigger bar descends! This movement has been estimated at around 20 thousands on all but the subcompacts - enough to affect fine aiming. Many competitors have the slide "tightened" for this reason. I didn't and wouldn't. Too much trouble, and it's more than possible to overtighten the slide, lose reliability or even to ruin the slide.

No way.

As a result of this thread, I decided to recheck the play on my relatively new G-34 slide (which used to be notably obvious). With an Arotek captured SS rod installed, the play is gone - or is so small as to be invisible, and I was looking close. SS rod - less play - more consistency and (slightly) improved accuracy. At least that's how I see it.


Bottom line:

I believe that Sevigny and others exchange the plastic out for good reasons. My guess is that the SS works to improve function, smoothness and reliable consistency insofar as better controlling what is a loose slide by design.

Although infrequent, there are many, many reports of chipped, worn and failed plastic rods - failures which have led those owners, and inspired others, to install steel. Even though the plastic is designed as a hollow tube (no doubt to increase stiffness), they still flex.

When they bend - and they do, however slightly - it would be impossible to predict in what direction, or what effect that has on the loose slides alignment before, during and after the shot.

*********

Aside: as to "aftermarket (ie metal) guide rods need lube", not so fast.

The G-26's (and other subcompacts) two spring rods are metal (outer), and plastic (inner). The Glock manual does not recommend lubing any of their guide rods, metal or not. Further, take a good look at your plastic rods - doesn't take a whole lot of rounds before they start to look pretty nasty, scraped and scratched by contact with the spring(s). Either they need lubing (they don't) or it doesn't matter (it doesn't).


Wow, the above quoted post is really well presented. I've been researching this question due to a major issue I had with my G30 guide rod recently. (see the thread in the following link):

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1197819

Based on this information presented by Evela, I'll likely be ordering a SS guide rod right away. Glock Warranty Dept. did replace the broken guide rod, which will serve as a backup, but I'm going with the SS. I'm not a modification enthusiast, but this seems to make sense for the G30 and perhaps other subcompacts.

Can anyone recommend a SS guide rod for the G30?

Thanks Evela for the info.

Steady

BuckyP
03-25-2010, 07:17
Based on this information presented by Evela, I'll likely be ordering a SS guide rod right away. Glock Warranty Dept. did replace the broken guide rod, which will serve as a backup, but I'm going with the SS. I'm not a modification enthusiast, but this seems to make sense for the G30 and perhaps other subcompacts.

Can anyone recommend a SS guide rod for the G30?

Thanks Evela for the info.

Steady

Although I've only had it for a short period of time, I am very impressed with the Wolf unit as I stated above. It's not stainless steel, though.

http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=1&mID=5

Wolff recoil spring guide rods for Glock pistols are the ideal companion for Wolff recoil springs. Guide rods are solid steel, hardened to a minimum of RC-55 and now have a jet black finish that won't wear off and provides corrosion protection. Wolff guide rods provide optimum performance for Wolff recoil springs through better support and spring alignment. Permits you to keep factory recoil assembly intact. Order guide rods alone or in combination with a recoil spring of your choice

Jager1147
03-25-2010, 07:40
Nice post Evala.

I agree, steel is no doubt an improvement - but not neccessarily shiny silver stainless......:winkie:

Bill Lumberg
03-25-2010, 09:41
We have yet to have one fail over scores of 22's and 23's, years of use, over 100K rounds, except from user error during reassembly. Stock rods in my glocks, steel in my 1911.

Wild Gene
03-25-2010, 14:44
I am ordering the Jager Products guides right now! Anyone that will come on the web and put up with us, and help sponsor this site, deserves our bidness....

Gene

Ordered two captured steel rods for my 34, a 13 and 15#. I am really excited to try the different weight springs.

WG