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pong
08-06-2009, 13:43
what this the proper procedure in this case

my friend recently moved to cavite, in the very few months that
he stayed there, he has experienced a significant threat to his life
and property

the first incident was quite simple and not that drastic > > his bike
got stolen

the second incident was more intense > > the intruder went inside his
house while he was inside, slowly creeping and checking out his place,
good thing he was still awake at that time when the intruder decided
to open the door to his room. he saw the hand and the shirt of the guy
as he tried to sneak in. the first thing he did was shout at the guy and
pick up his FA and cocked it.

good thing the guy ran away, leaving whatever he tried to take.
he reported everything to the police and barangay concerned.


questions >>
situation 1
in case the intruder decided to barge in despite the warning
is my friend legally allowed to fire his gun at the intruder
can this be already classified as self-defense?

what is the proper procedure?

situation 2
in case the guy runs away, and he fires a warning shot, is there
a case wherein he will be charged? illegal discharge of FA?

what is the definition of a warning shot then?

situation 3: In the event that the intruder decided to attack with
a bladed weapon, and as a natural instinct of saving one's life, the
homeowner decides to fire his FA and in the process kills the intruder.
what case would be filed against him?

homicide? but will this be then dismissed by the city fiscals
as a case of self defense.

thanks!

Eye Cutter
08-06-2009, 18:20
i'd put booby traps out for the perp!

glockleo
08-06-2009, 18:23
If the intruder had already fled, I would not fire a warning shot. I would make sure he actually left however while calling police.

If the intruder charged you in your own house, then you have the right to fire, expecially if he is armed. Even if he does not appeared to be armed at the moment, that does not mean he's not concealing something. Just make sure he is coming at you when you fire so it is clear that you were the intended target. If he was running away and you shot him in the back, it might not look so good. That is the way I see it. Does anyone disagree?

Atomic Punk
08-06-2009, 18:25
as much as i really like the idea of traps for those types. i would bet they would be illegal. even one that could only go off if somebody tried to steal it.

presidingglock
08-06-2009, 19:00
Situation 1 - Gray area, it could go either way.
Situation 2 - He could be charged with alarm and scandal.
Situation 3 - Murder or Homicide as SOP even if complete self defense exists.

jojo_G19
08-06-2009, 19:12
I'll shoot the hell out of the A*#H&^* on all scenario. i would subject my family even to the slightest risk of having a bad guy in my house or even in my backyard.


but thats just me.
jojo

St. Croix
08-06-2009, 20:12
i'm not a legal expert but if the BG entered one's residence, it could be argued that the BG meant to inflict harm therefore justifiable to react with lethal force.

however if the bad guy flees and you went after him and shot/killed him, that may be considered homicide.

if memory serves me right, wasnt there an incident involving Sonny Parsons wherein some perps entered his residence but he was able to drive them away and actually went after some of them. i forgot how that turned out.

atmarcella
08-06-2009, 23:37
shoot... that why we have lawyers. sila na bahala after.

jojo_G19
08-07-2009, 00:05
i'm not a legal expert but if the BG entered one's residence, it could be argued that the BG meant to inflict harm therefore justifiable to react with lethal force.

however if the bad guy flees and you went after him and shot/killed him, that may be considered homicide.

if memory serves me right, wasnt there an incident involving Sonny Parsons wherein some perps entered his residence but he was able to drive them away and actually went after some of them. i forgot how that turned out.


sonny parsons was at the gun show on the 1st or second day i think, he spoke of that incident and he to that there was no case filed against hin because nadismiss na sa fiscals office plang.

but we are not sonny parsons:supergrin::supergrin::supergrin:


para saakin, the legalities would be the last thing on my mind those scenarios happen.



but thats just me.


sabi nga ni bro atmarcella "shoot... that why we have lawyers. sila na bahala after. " <---- very true.:cool:




jojo

glockleo
08-07-2009, 05:52
He could be charged with alarm and scandal.
Situation 3 - Murder or Homicide as SOP even if complete self defense exists.

Are you saying that the home owner would be charged with murder even if self defense was evident? The perp attacked him with a deadly weapon in his own house, he would be justifiable in shooting to kill.

I might have read something wrong along the way (it happens :whistling:) but that is what I got from it.

Lady Glock
08-07-2009, 06:08
Never fire a warning shot. Fire to stop the threat. Do not pull your firearm unless you intend to use it in self-defense.

presidingglock
08-07-2009, 06:20
Are you saying that the home owner would be charged with murder even if self defense was evident? The perp attacked him with a deadly weapon in his own house, he would be justifiable in shooting to kill.

I might have read something wrong along the way (it happens :whistling:) but that is what I got from it.

Sir in the Philippines, the public prosecutor will sometimes file the case as a matter of course either for murder or homicide and will just leave it to the judge to determine if the accused is entitled to the claim of self defense. He will just pass the buck so to speak.

jimbullet
08-07-2009, 07:23
It was fortunate that the BG was presumably surprised that your friend was awake, which has stopped the further intrusion. It would be dreadful to think that the BG may have been prepared with a firearm as well or may have been aggressive at attacking your friend which may have resulted in a situation where both of them may have ended up fighting control over a firearm.

I think it would have been legal to use lethal force most especially if one can prove that one's life was in grave danger.

My two cents worth, when your friend decides to engage the BG with lethal force, make sure the BG drops to the ground and that all your hits are Alpha in the FRONT torso and not an Alpha at the back. Why not the back, it will be perceived as the BG already running away and therefore extinguishing the threat to your friend's life.

jerrytrini
08-07-2009, 08:24
Articulate why you did what you did. You were in fear for your safety and the safety of your family. I does not matter if he did not have a weapon. Remember that a fleeing suspect is no longer a threat. The threat is his combative or aggressive behaviour inside your home which you have an expectation of privacy and safety. Just my 2 centime.

Poodle
08-07-2009, 16:50
There are three conditions in invoking self defense here in the Philippines:

1] The other party is the aggressor.
2] You are not the aggressor and you did nothing to provoke the aggressor.
3] The use of a firearm is commensurate to the threat. There is no disparity of force, e.g. a FA against a knife (this would be incomplete self defense). According to my lawyer friend, a long bladed weapon is considered at a par with a firearm.

These apply even in home invasions. Do not fire warning shots. That is not done anymore.

Allegra
08-07-2009, 18:45
nagwawarning shot ba mga caviteno? nagwawarning shot sa ulo

2 beses na rin ako the past year na akyat bahay, pero cel fones at kitchen knives lang nawala
Got a dog, kaso maingay
Maganda rin motion detectors, kaso ako parati nahuhuli sa madaling araw. Hirap matandaan ng disarm code paglasing
Finally, got a bluguard. Mura lang kuha ko, kaso nagagalit pag ginigising

re: your question
matagal ko na rin yan pinagiisipan
Kasi on one of our akyat bahay episodes, umuwi ako while they were inside my compound. Buti nalang hindi ako kinarne hehe coz I was wasted
Sakin the closer ang distansya ng bg, i'd shoot lalo kung more than 1. Wala nang time mag isip kasi. Anyway, handa naman mamatay mga hayop na yun.
So kung nasa loob ng bahay, shoot na agad.....malamang di ko naman tamaan e haha
Kung outside trhe house, warning shot at warning shout ( @#$%^ mo!! )
This may not apply sa Manila

Capt.Barbel
08-07-2009, 22:02
shoot as seen! :supergrin:

atmarcella
08-07-2009, 23:13
Maganda rin motion detectors, kaso ako parati nahuhuli sa madaling araw. Hirap matandaan ng disarm code paglasing


sir, magkano kaya ang ganito? saan ka nag score? effective? baka kahit daga mag aa-larm sya....tyvm!

Never fire a warning shot. Fire to stop the threat. Do not pull your firearm unless you intend to use it in self-defense.



i concur.

Gun Shark
08-07-2009, 23:19
Wouldn't the fact that there was an intruder in the house give you the right to shoot?

jimbullet
08-07-2009, 23:48
Wouldn't the fact that there was an intruder in the house give you the right to shoot?

Unfortunately, Philippine laws do not allow excessive force to be used even if a BG is already inside the house for as long as there was no threat to any life, then lethal force cannot be justified.

There are however practicalities in life, which I will leave it to one's imagination.

Cant remember some known saying = better to be tried by 12 than be carried by 6. Obviously a BG lying on the floor, inside your house with a deadly weapon cannot defend himself in court. The evidences would point to what/ how the situation escalated for one to use lethal force

wunder9
08-08-2009, 01:57
A friend of mine asked me if I'm prepared for the cost of defending myself & family in event of home invasion. Typical liberal, anti-gun, fact twisting arguments.

Instead I asked him, shouldn't the home invader be asking himself if he is prepared for the cost if occupants of house are armed & willing to end his miserable existence? It's not like there is a law written guaranteeing a home invader to conduct his thieving business without risk of bodily harm or death, or is there?

Allegra
08-08-2009, 06:05
sir, magkano kaya ang ganito? saan ka nag score? effective? baka kahit daga mag aa-larm sya....tyvm!




i concur.



Basta hindi gagalaw yung daga , hindi sya magaalarm
Bought them sa handy man, 800p lang need 4 AA batteries
You can put them anywhere inside the house, i bought one for each room
Just set the alarm , then to disarm, you have 10 sec to punch in the disarm code
Effective sya , pinag lalaruan ng mga bata kasi nakaka asar pag nahuli ka

MAJINKONG
08-08-2009, 07:05
Read article 11 of the revised penal code

Poodle
08-09-2009, 08:01
Article 11 of the Revised Penal Code

1. Anyone who acts in defense of his person or rights, provided that the following
circumstances concur;

First. Unlawful aggression.

Second. Reasonable necessity of the means employed to prevent or repel it.

Third. Lack of sufficient provocation on the part of the person defending
himself.

2. Any one who acts in defense of the person or rights of his spouse, ascendants,
descendants, or legitimate, natural or adopted brothers or sisters, or his relatives by
affinity in the same degrees and those consanguinity within the fourth civil degree,
provided that the first and second requisites prescribed in the next preceding
circumstance are present, and the further requisite, in case the revocation was given
by the person attacked, that the one making defense had no part therein.

3. Anyone who acts in defense of the person or rights of a stranger, provided that
the first and second requisites mentioned in the first circumstance of this Art. are
present and that the person defending be not induced by revenge, resentment, or other
evil motive.

4. Any person who, in order to avoid an evil or injury, does not act which causes
damage to another, provided that the following requisites are present;
First. That the evil sought to be avoided actually exists;
Second. That the injury feared be greater than that done to avoid it;
Third. That there be no other practical and less harmful means of preventing it.

5. Any person who acts in the fulfillment of a duty or in the lawful exercise of a
right or office.

6. Any person who acts in obedience to an order issued by a superior for some
lawful purpose.

Allegra
08-09-2009, 08:32
I'm pretty sure pag nagising ako at may akyat bahay sa loob ng bahay ko , the concurring circumstances written in article 11 of the revised penal code will be the last thing I would be thinking of
Basta nasa loob na , putok na
Nakaharap, nakatalikod, upside down si mr akayat bahay...may oras ka pa ba mag isip?
Baka kakaisip ko , hindi nako makaputok
Let's shorten the ooda loop a little

Lady Glock
08-09-2009, 09:06
I'm pretty sure pag nagising ako at may akyat bahay sa loob ng bahay ko , the concurring circumstances written in article 11 of the revised penal code will be the last thing I would be thinking of
Basta nasa loob na , putok na
Nakaharap, nakatalikod, upside down si mr akayat bahay...may oras ka pa ba mag isip?
Baka kakaisip ko , hindi nako makaputok
Let's shorten the ooda loop a littleWhat does all this mean? What language is it?

9MX
08-09-2009, 09:19
I'm pretty sure pag nagising ako at may akyat bahay sa loob ng bahay ko , the concurring circumstances written in article 11 of the revised penal code will be the last thing I would be thinking of
Basta nasa loob na , putok na
Nakaharap, nakatalikod, upside down si mr akayat bahay...may oras ka pa ba mag isip?
Baka kakaisip ko , hindi nako makaputok
Let's shorten the ooda loop a little

For Lady Glock - I'm pretty sure when I wake up and there is a thief in my house the concurring circumstances written in article 11 of the revised penal code will be the last thing I would be thinking of, once the thief is inside, I'll shoot him. Whether he is facing me, turned his back on me, or upside down...do you still have time to think with that situation?
Thinking too much might prevent me from shooting
Let's shorten the ooda loop a littl

The language is Pilipino :cool:

Lady Glock
08-09-2009, 09:54
For Lady Glock - I'm pretty sure when I wake up and there is a thief in my house the concurring circumstances written in article 11 of the revised penal code will be the last thing I would be thinking of, once the thief is inside, I'll shoot him. Whether he is facing me, turned his back on me, or upside down...do you still have time to think with that situation?
Thinking too much might prevent me from shooting
Let's shorten the ooda loop a littl

The language is Pilipino :cool:

Thank you...thought I was just unaware of some sort of inside joke. :dunno:

Poodle
08-09-2009, 16:21
Galing mag-translate Mannix ah.

atmarcella
08-09-2009, 23:44
Basta hindi gagalaw yung daga , hindi sya magaalarm
Bought them sa handy man, 800p lang need 4 AA batteries
You can put them anywhere inside the house, i bought one for each room
Just set the alarm , then to disarm, you have 10 sec to punch in the disarm code
Effective sya , pinag lalaruan ng mga bata kasi nakaka asar pag nahuli ka

sir, pwede sya outdoors? waterproof? :wavey:

Allegra
08-10-2009, 09:00
sir, pwede sya outdoors? waterproof? :wavey:

ay iba naman yun pang outdoor
Meron din, pero ilaw naman ang bubumubukas , just so the neighbors wont be disturbed kung pusa nga nag trigger

9MX
08-10-2009, 10:04
Galing mag-translate Mannix ah.

Take 3 ako sa English father:rofl:

CatsMeow
08-10-2009, 18:44
Internet's no longer acting up...:cool:

Anyway, this topic has been beaten to death already, but it's still worth bringing up, especially in these desperate times...

I'd like to add that before you do anything, target ID, target ID. If it turns out that it's a family member out for a midnight snack or a friend who just wanted to do a practical joke on you... Reminds me of an ancient case taught to us in first year law school, the lawyers here remember it, a classic case of mistaken identity.

Still, if you plug an intruder inside your home and he survives, he, not you, still has to explain why he's there in the first place. And if you're lucky, he may have an outstanding warrant of arrest...:supergrin:

crazy_hans
08-10-2009, 23:10
Internet's no longer acting up...:cool:

Anyway, this topic has been beaten to death already, but it's still worth bringing up, especially in these desperate times...

I'd like to add that before you do anything, target ID, target ID. If it turns out that it's a family member out for a midnight snack or a friend who just wanted to do a practical joke on you... Reminds me of an ancient case taught to us in first year law school, the lawyers here remember it, a classic case of mistaken identity.

Still, if you plug an intruder inside your home and he survives, he, not you, still has to explain why he's there in the first place. And if you're lucky, he may have an outstanding warrant of arrest...:supergrin:


sir catsmeow ah chiong case?hehehehe:supergrin:

CatsMeow
08-11-2009, 00:32
sir catsmeow ah chiong case?hehehehe:supergrin:

Oh yeah, our class even had a little skit about it, the classmate who played Ah Chiong really played it convincingly.:supergrin: I'll search my files for the case.

jimbullet
08-11-2009, 02:14
Internet's no longer acting up...:cool:

Anyway, this topic has been beaten to death already, but it's still worth bringing up, especially in these desperate times...

I'd like to add that before you do anything, target ID, target ID. If it turns out that it's a family member out for a midnight snack or a friend who just wanted to do a practical joke on you... Reminds me of an ancient case taught to us in first year law school, the lawyers here remember it, a classic case of mistaken identity.

Still, if you plug an intruder inside your home and he survives, he, not you, still has to explain why he's there in the first place. And if you're lucky, he may have an outstanding warrant of arrest...:supergrin:

If the intruder survives and lives another day, your next challenge would be more difficult. I am pretty sure that the burglar will seek revenge and this time will come when you least expect it.

So if one decides to take lethal action against the intruder, I suggest you make 100% sure the intruder drops to the floor for good.

During the entire situation, agree that one will not think of Article 11 of the penal code but in the aftermath, one should be prepared.

atmarcella
08-11-2009, 02:49
ay iba naman yun pang outdoor
Meron din, pero ilaw naman ang bubumubukas , just so the neighbors wont be disturbed kung pusa nga nag trigger


thanks A, tingnan ko sa handyman pag maka luwas ko, ty!

glockleo
08-11-2009, 07:30
Soooooo how come half the words are english and the other are not? Hahahahaha

9MX
08-11-2009, 08:21
Soooooo how come half the words are english and the other are not? Hahahahaha

yes, its called "Tag-lish," meaning Tagalog-English:cool:

Poodle
08-11-2009, 09:08
During the entire situation, agree that one will not think of Article 11 of the penal code but in the aftermath, one should be prepared.

IN the aftermath, one should be prepared. Amen to that.

Young Once
08-11-2009, 09:28
Ah yes, that famous Ah Chong case and the principle of mistake of fact, if I am not mistaken. No pun intended.

Poodle
08-11-2009, 16:41
The classic case of United States vs. Ah Chong, G.R. No. L-5272 March 19, 1910, is still used as a textbook example of "mistake of fact" in criminal law.

Because of robberies happening at Fort McKinley, Ah Chong, a Chinaman, slept with a knife under his pillow. One night, he was awakened by someone trying to force open the door of his room. He thought that it was a robber so he stabbed the person who entered the room, who turned out to be his roommate.

Was Ah Chong liable for the death of his roommate?

Ah Chong was not held liable for the death of his roommate. The Supreme Court reversed the lower courtís conviction of homicide, saying that Ah Chong committed a mistake of fact. He would not have stabbed his roommate had he known the identity of the person who entered the room. If the person who opened the door had really been a robber instead of his roommate, he would not be criminally liable if he had stabbed that person in self-defense.

Kaya lang 1910 pa ito. It pre-dates the revised penal code. Baka di na puede gamitin ito as self defense dahil applicable na ang article sa revised penal code pag me home invader. Puede pa ba?

Allegra
08-11-2009, 17:14
Nagtataka naman ako bakit may problema sa target identification e sariling bahay mo yun
Pwede ka naman mag verbal challenge
" taas mga kamay! napapalibutan ko na kayo! "

CatsMeow
08-11-2009, 18:52
Well, since the Ah Chong case is still being cited, it's still good law. Still, you may not be legally liable for killing in such circumstances, but you still killed him by mistake, something you have to live with the rest of your life...

And as Allegra says, a verbal challenge is good. In my best Bisaya accent too...:supergrin:

jojo_G19
08-11-2009, 19:56
i think the must thing to do para maiwasan natin ang mistaken identity is to teach your housemates na paglalabas sila ng kwarto at night, they MUST AND ALWAYS MUST turn on the lights. kasi turning on the lights is a no-no para sa mga intruder, that way, it will be much easier for us to identify who the person is.

but then again, we must not assume na pag may tao sa labas, intruder na un, baka ung maid mo is sneaking out for a midnight ice cream and a cake, and ayaw lang ipaalam sayo na siya pala ang umuubos ng ice cream mo.. hehehehe




jojo

jimbullet
08-12-2009, 05:08
Or perhaps your maid is sneaking out food to the subdivision security guard and having a date at your very porch...

jimbullet
08-12-2009, 05:11
Ah yes, that famous Ah Chong case and the principle of mistake of fact, if I am not mistaken. No pun intended.

Would this be applicable in the Phils.?

pong
08-12-2009, 11:55
i think the must thing to do para maiwasan natin ang mistaken identity is to teach your housemates na paglalabas sila ng kwarto at night, they MUST AND ALWAYS MUST turn on the lights. kasi turning on the lights is a no-no para sa mga intruder, that way, it will be much easier for us to identify who the person is.

but then again, we must not assume na pag may tao sa labas, intruder na un, baka ung maid mo is sneaking out for a midnight ice cream and a cake, and ayaw lang ipaalam sayo na siya pala ang umuubos ng ice cream mo.. hehehehe




jojo


in the case of my friend, the BG turned on the lights in his sala and some other rooms. since he is the only one staying in the house and has the only
set of keys, he is sure that the person that went in has a clear intent to
steal

Allegra
08-12-2009, 17:31
in the case of my friend, the BG turned on the lights in his sala and some other rooms. since he is the only one staying in the house and has the only
set of keys, he is sure that the person that went in has a clear intent to
steal


motion detectors would good kung magisa lang sya
ang mura lang

Black_SIR
08-14-2009, 01:27
nagwawarning shot ba mga caviteno? nagwawarning shot sa ulo

2 beses na rin ako the past year na akyat bahay, pero cel fones at kitchen knives lang nawala
Got a dog, kaso maingay
Maganda rin motion detectors, kaso ako parati nahuhuli sa madaling araw. Hirap matandaan ng disarm code paglasing
Finally, got a bluguard. Mura lang kuha ko, kaso nagagalit pag ginigising

re: your question
matagal ko na rin yan pinagiisipan
Kasi on one of our akyat bahay episodes, umuwi ako while they were inside my compound. Buti nalang hindi ako kinarne hehe coz I was wasted
Sakin the closer ang distansya ng bg, i'd shoot lalo kung more than 1. Wala nang time mag isip kasi. Anyway, handa naman mamatay mga hayop na yun.
So kung nasa loob ng bahay, shoot na agad.....malamang di ko naman tamaan e haha
Kung outside trhe house, warning shot at warning shout ( @#$%^ mo!! )
This may not apply sa Manila

coz I was wasted

intindi ko bro was lasing ka?? it salways better kapag mag inuman iwan isa hindi umuiinom para sa pag drive at sa trouble.. jsut my 2 cents, ganyan kasi kami dito

Allegra
08-14-2009, 03:31
coz I was wasted

intindi ko bro was lasing ka?? it salways better kapag mag inuman iwan isa hindi umuiinom para sa pag drive at sa trouble.. jsut my 2 cents, ganyan kasi kami dito


yoko may kasamang ganun, yaya ng yaya umuwi

atmarcella
08-14-2009, 04:22
oo nga hehehe. uso yan sa e-stets kasi labag sa batas ata dun ang drinking and driving, dito....eh uso yan hehehe.