45 acp Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations; Glock 36 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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gvf
09-06-2009, 14:19
What's a light-recoil 45acp round
SD round I could use for a 36?

Thanks

PS How about just FMJ?

DannyR
09-06-2009, 14:37
Federal Personal Defense. Forget FMJ's unless you just want to make your assailant mad.

willowofwisp
09-06-2009, 15:12
Winchester Ranger-t's aka black talons....I won't carry anything in my .45's they are proven to work and have very good expanding numbers.

they are for law enforcement only so they may be hard to come by in stores

pens-66
09-06-2009, 15:15
What's a light-recoil 45acp round
SD round I could use for a 36?

Thanks

PS How about just FMJ?

I have always used the Federal HST 230+P in my G36. I carry that combo every day. The Ranger Ts and the Speer Gold Dot are good as well. But the HSTs are my favorite. Any good non+P will be pretty much the same. If you use +P ammo you probably won't realize the difference in recoil under a stressful situation. Just my opinion.

"Cold Dead Hands" !
09-06-2009, 16:39
Why use only low-recoil ammo ?
You will only get low performance, when you need it most.
You should be using the fastest, hardest hitting .45acp ammo out there.
Because the G36's short barrel will deliver less bullet speed & performance to begin with.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=95&osCsid=golk6ejrkqqa993oser80q4k06
Double Tap ammo might be the best, because it is a Speer Gold Dot bullet driven to even greater speed.
Also:
*Corbon DPX.
*Speer Gold Dot
*Winchester Ranger T series.
*185gr. Remington Golden Saber
*Triton
Just shoot a box or two of one brand, to make sure it feeds well thru your gun.
Then you will rarely shoot it ever again, except to defend yourself.

For frequent practice ammo, just use the cheapest .45 acp FMJ ammo you can find.
Their all low recoil.
Problem solved.

Now, if you have permanently crippled hands, and can hardly shoot a gun, because it will fly out of your hands...
230gr. Federal Hydra Shoks will be low recoil.
230gr. Speer Gold Dot's special "Short-Barreled ammo" would be low recoil too.
But, you will get far less performance with these.

A Glock 19 9mm would be a better choice of gun, if you want low recoil.
The 9mm FMJ practice ammo is low recoil & far cheaper.
The cheap FMJ ammo is basically all you will ever shoot.
Then, load-up with the high powered stuff for Carry or Home Defense.

DUMPLING
09-06-2009, 16:39
Anything with a GOLD DOT bullet on it. This stuff works.

OD GASTON
09-06-2009, 16:41
230 gr. Rem. Golden Sabors.....personnal preferance. Like mentioned above there are a ton of great hollowpoints out nowadays.

FireForged
09-06-2009, 16:49
Federal Personal Defense. Forget FMJ's unless you just want to make your assailant mad.

That was supposed to be a joke, right?

gvf
09-06-2009, 17:00
Why use only low-recoil ammo ?

My hand are OK, not that, just I'd like to have the same recoil in an emergency situation that I have feel for the at the range from target ammo (currently using a 230 gr fmj), I mean within the ballpark of that.
The fewer surprises the better in feel of my gun is what I was after.

Also, to stay on target with repeated shots is easier.

But I'm not recoil sensitive. I'm 61, health problems, skinny, skinny little hands etc. - and the first gun I ever shot 3 years ago (and my first gun ever) was a Colt Python, .357 without an issue. (buy of a lifetime - unfired except for test-firing, nickle 4": $439 )

WILLSARV
09-06-2009, 17:26
That was supposed to be a joke, right?

Of course it was a joke.

Then I guess the military has pissed off quite a few enemies over the years.:dunno:

Commander Keen
09-06-2009, 17:27
Personally, I use corbon's dpx 185 gr +p in my G30. Very accurate, and easy to shoot, and the Mongolian (my Glock) eats then like candy. However, with the short barrel you might want to concider going with either corbon's 160 gr dpx, or speer's 200 gr +p gold dot round. I believe both are designed with short barrelled guns in mind.
I would stay away from fmj's in a defense roll, because those rounds will do little more than punch a .45 caliber hole through a person and keep going. It's much better to have a hollow point that will stop in the bg instead of an fmj that will keep going, and then hit something you don't want to hit, like a innocent bystander or a car.
Of course, there is the old tennent that any modern jhp will do a fine job if you do yours (bullet placement). After all, a hit with a .22 is much better than a miss with a .45.

Big Sam
09-06-2009, 17:28
My 36 is full of FMJ ammo. If I were going to use expanding ammo I would start with Speer Gold dots. You have a long list of choices out there and you need to find what works best for you. Don't know where you will end up but starting with Gold Dots is a good place. One of the nice things about the 45 is you can shoot carry loads that feel just like practice loads. You can go to hotter carry loads but I find it a lot more optional than for my 9mm Glocks (which have Gold Dot +P's in them). Just get what you like and shoot a bunch of them to be sure your gun likes them too.

israel 54
09-06-2009, 17:45
Considering all of the 1911 and other .45 guys, I'm really surprised not to hear that it's a .45 it doesn't matter what ammo you use it'll stop whatever you have coming at you with a single shot. Lol, I guess they all went and bought Fo-tays. Now, just about any commercial ammo is going to perform well. I would recommend using hollow- points either 180gr. or 230gr. will be fine. Alot of people have alot of opinions and few are going to agree 100%. Federal HST does have some low recoil self defense ammo that is very good.

GSSF17
09-06-2009, 18:02
Anything with a GOLD DOT bullet on it. This stuff works.

Ding ding ding!!!!!!!!!!!

+1 for sure.

Speer Gold dot 230 Gr. GDHP :cool:

40 Cal Joe
09-06-2009, 18:05
CorBon 185 HP

Glock30sfNC
09-06-2009, 18:16
Federal Personal Defense. Forget FMJ's unless you just want to make your assailant mad.
:rofl:

You shoot people with FMJ .45 often? I thought not.

Hpoints are better SD ammo in my opinion but I know people who only shoot FMJ(range and SD) and they def. won't say it makes people mad.

Don't tell this guy that it's worthless as self defense because if hes on a budget chances are some FMJ ammo is looking better than HP price wise.

"Cold Dead Hands" !
09-06-2009, 18:19
My 36 is full of FMJ ammo. If I were going to use expanding ammo I would start with Speer Gold dots. You have a long list of choices out there and you need to find what works best for you. Don't know where you will end up but starting with Gold Dots is a good place. One of the nice things about the 45 is you can shoot carry loads that feel just like practice loads. You can go to hotter carry loads but I find it a lot more optional than for my 9mm Glocks (which have Gold Dot +P's in them). Just get what you like and shoot a bunch of them to be sure your gun likes them too.
Sam, I agree about the Speer Gold Dots.
And, the Double Tap ammo is the Speer Gold Dot bullet driven to even higher speed, similar to Corbons.
That's what would make it so good, especially for short-barreled guns.

Also, amazingly, testing and Police records show that the 9mm FMJ are better Man-Stopper's than the .45acp FMJ.
Because most of the time, the long, thinner round-nosed 9mm bullet tumbles upon impact, and as it turns sideways, it causes more damage than the .45 which just drills straight thru, making a smaller hole.

That's probably why the Military switch to the 9mm !

Bowtie
09-06-2009, 18:20
Sam, I agree about the Speer Gold Dots.
And, the Double Tap ammo is the Speer Gold Dot bullet driven to even higher speed, similar to Corbons.
That's what would make it so good, especially for short-barreled guns.

Also, amazingly, testing and Police records show that the 9mm FMJ are better Man-Stopper's than the .45acp FMJ.
Because modt of the time, the long, thinner round-nosed 9mm bullet tumbles upon impact, and as it turns sideways, it causes more damage than the .45 which just drills straight thru, making a smaller hole.

That's probably why the Military switch to the 9mm !

Have any documented proof of that claim?

yrbender
09-06-2009, 18:20
http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell-GoldDot.htm

viniglock
09-06-2009, 18:23
Anything with a GOLD DOT bullet on it. This stuff works.

I concur!


:wavey:

"Cold Dead Hands" !
09-06-2009, 18:30
Have any documented proof of that claim?

Nope....I'm out of here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--------------------------------------------
Been drinkin the Koolaid !

blinddog
09-06-2009, 18:34
OK here it is use Rem Golden Saber 230 grn JHP for SD ammo use Rem 230 Grn FMJ for range the differance in recoil will be slight if any Newtons laws hol;d true every action has an equil reaction thus a 230 Grn JHP at 950 FPS or so will have the same recoil as a 230 Grn FMJ at 950 FPS. And for what it's worth I have seen wounds from 230 grn FMJ and from 230 grn JHP's the go in is about the same but with JHP you seldom have a go out provideing you hit center mass FMJ almost always give a full pass through. I also saw a guy who lost his leg on the spot from a hit with an FMJ just above his knee had a small strip of skin on each side holding the leg on, it didn't matter though he bled out before EMS got to the scene

captainkronosVH
09-06-2009, 18:38
I use Speer's Lawman ammo in both my G36 and G21. Same POI and recoil with the FMJ as with the Gold Dots. I use the 230 gr of each and can not tell the difference even if I mix them in a magazine. Good stuff- glad I bought a ton of it when it was still cheap.

kahoys
09-06-2009, 18:43
I just got to agree, it is a .45 it is 230gr. ball, it worked for our guys and gals in WW-1 AND 2, Korea, and Vietnam, Hell we carried it on duty inport. For self defence I still prefer what has been tried, true, and tested. Works for me.:wow:


Considering all of the 1911 and other .45 guys, I'm really surprised not to hear that it's a .45 it doesn't matter what ammo you use it'll stop whatever you have coming at you with a single shot. Lol, I guess they all went and bought Fo-tays. Now, just about any commercial ammo is going to perform well. I would recommend using hollow- points either 180gr. or 230gr. will be fine. Alot of people have alot of opinions and few are going to agree 100%. Federal HST does have some low recoil self defense ammo that is very good.

"Cold Dead Hands" !
09-06-2009, 18:46
No seriously !

http://weekend-sportsman.com/images/158160128X.jpg (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTbx_hVKRKAxYAxLqjzbkF/SIG=126ivmrog/EXP=1252370017/**http%3A//weekend-sportsman.com/images/158160128X.jpg)
P.162 of this Stopping Power book, the third book of the series.
The authors just compiled information from all over the world, to create these books.

The 9mm FMJ info is confirmed from different studies.
Records of Police shootings, and labratory test.
Shooting the 9mm FMJ into 10% gelatin, showed that most of the time, the bullet tumbles 180 degrees upon impact.
While the big, fat .45 acp drills straight thru.

mastrbloata
09-06-2009, 18:51
I have always used the Federal HST 230+P in my G36. I carry that combo every day. The Ranger Ts and the Speer Gold Dot are good as well. But the HSTs are my favorite. I'll go ahead and second that on the HST .230g. +P but you'll be getting some recoil. I used to carry it in my G-30 when I carried a G-30.

MURRAY
09-06-2009, 18:54
I use Ranger T and Gold Dot or HST all non p 230 loads.

Mine are in a Sig 220 Glk 30 and 4516

X-ray
09-06-2009, 19:24
No seriously !

http://weekend-sportsman.com/images/158160128X.jpg (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTbx_hVKRKAxYAxLqjzbkF/SIG=126ivmrog/EXP=1252370017/**http%3A//weekend-sportsman.com/images/158160128X.jpg)
P.162 of this Stopping Power book, the third book of the series.
The authors just compiled information from all over the world, to create these books.

The 9mm FMJ info is confirmed from different studies.
Records of Police shootings, and labratory test.
Shooting the 9mm FMJ into 10% gelatin, showed that most of the time, the bullet tumbles 180 degrees upon impact.
While the big, fat .45 acp drills straight thru.
good to know if i am attacked by 10% gelatin.Or a jelly roll

boomer92544
09-06-2009, 19:25
Let an old Military and Law Enforcement Officer get in here. Any projetile hitting the human body at 1,000 feet a second is going to cause shock trauma and soft tissue damge regardless of it's shape. The Military only use ball FMJ ammo to kill people and it has worked extremly well for over 200 years now. FMJ also have less FTF problems as they were designed by John Moses Browning to do just that. Every enemy I ever shot with a 230 FMJ ball slug never got up to contine his aggresive actions against me. That said, any enemy combatant that my son shot with a 115 FMJ 9mm slug in Iraq never got up to cause him any additional problems either.

captcurly
09-06-2009, 19:30
I carry my G 36 with Speer Short Barrel 45ACP. Read very good reports on Speer Short Barrel ammo. Also my G 26 and 642 all are carried with Short Barrel. When I carry my Ruger LCP I use Hornady Critical Defense Ammo.

Mike from Texas
09-06-2009, 19:45
As has been stated previously, carry a quality self defense ammo. My preference is Federal HST, followed closely by Gold Dots and the Winchester Rangers.

I would shy away from the Double Tap. As good as it is, the 185 grain and 200 grain loads had horrible muzzle flash out of my Kimber Ultra Carry and the 230 grain offering had substantial recoil in such a light weight gun.

boomer92544
09-06-2009, 19:48
Any hit, even with a Hi Point 380, is better than a jam and a miss with a Glock. The round nose part of the bullet was designed to slide smoothly up the barrel ramp into the chamber at just about any angle. Can't say that for hollow point bullets. The only way to load JHP is to stagger them with FMJ so you can Tap and Rack on a jam when your hands are shaking profusely!

"Cold Dead Hands" !
09-06-2009, 19:59
Here's a interesting test of all of these .45acp's shot thru 4 layers of denim, and 10% gelatin.
Most of them clogged and did not expand.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-2968.html

pens-66
09-06-2009, 20:38
A Glock 19 9mm would be a better choice of gun, if you want low recoil.
The 9mm FMJ practice ammo is low recoil & far cheaper.
The cheap FMJ ammo is basically all you will ever shoot.
Then, load-up with the high powered stuff for Carry or Home Defense.

We don't need to make this into another caliber debate. The OP asked about low-recoil .45 ammo...not which caliber is better or cheaper or anything about 9mm for that matter.... we all know that the .45acp shot out of a G36 won't penetrate your leather jacket:rofl:

Dro205
09-06-2009, 20:38
Winchester Ranger T-series (RA45T) 230 gr. or
Federal HST 230 gr.

Bowtie
09-06-2009, 20:56
Here's a interesting test of all of these .45acp's shot thru 4 layers of denim, and 10% gelatin.
Most of them clogged and did not expand.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-2968.html

The federal HST 230+p ( That I use in my 30 and 1911 and really like) Did not clog and expanded. As did the Ranger T.

Bowtie
09-06-2009, 20:58
The only way to load JHP is to stagger them with FMJ so you can Tap and Rack on a jam when your hands are shaking profusely!

Thats the biggest load of BS I've seen in a long time. I really hope you are kidding.

"Cold Dead Hands" !
09-06-2009, 22:07
The federal HST 230+p ( That I use in my 30 and 1911 and really like) Did not clog and expanded. As did the Ranger T.

Cool !
But, what did you shoot it thru & into ?
Was it the same medium as the previous test, 4 layers of denim, over a 10% gelatin block ?

Glock30sfNC
09-06-2009, 22:09
Cool !
But, what did you shoot it thru & into ?
Was it the same medium as the previous test, 4 layers of denim, over a 10% gelatin block ?

So what you are trying to say is I shoot a .45 for the bang and the flash?

Bowtie
09-06-2009, 22:17
Cool !
But, what did you shoot it thru & into ?
Was it the same medium as the previous test, 4 layers of denim, over a 10% gelatin block ?

I've tested the HST's in a few different ways but what I was quoting was the results you posted..

dreis454
09-06-2009, 22:31
Who the hell wears 4 layers of denim anyways????

Bowtie
09-06-2009, 22:36
Who the hell wears 4 layers of denim anyways????

10% Gelatin, thats who.:rofl:

Tomcat55
09-06-2009, 23:23
:rofl::rofl:10% Gelatin, thats who.:rofl:

gvf
09-07-2009, 03:49
Thanks everyone for a wealth of info. There's one other I want to get some info on: a new Buffalo Bore, think it's "45 Auto Rim" something like that. Sounds similar to a 38 Sp of theirs I use: snappy (though non +p) hardened wadcutter, hits like a tiny manhole cover - flat. A real punch and then crusher inside, bones, tissue, whatever - since it retains it's shape.

They only talk about the .45 variety for revolvers though - so maybe not a possibility.

Anyway, after that, I'll go buy one of your suggestions, and give it a shot.
Thanks again

DUMPLING
09-07-2009, 06:30
I was in a legal group which studied the Miami FBI shootout and, had their 9mm's been loaded with Gold Dots, they would have done the job. The 9mm is FIANLLY coming up to expectations with this new ammo.

Move on up to a .40 or .45 with Gold Dots and the same good result would obtain.

The stuff just works and works and works.

As far as using ball ammo, the current thinking is to NOT use it for defense.

Too much penetration and not enough shock delivered. Especially in the 40 and 9mm

Having said that, the .45 ACP 230grn ball worked well in many wars. A .45 cal hole is a BIG hole. If all I had was 45 ball I would not think twice about using it.

pens-66
09-07-2009, 11:13
I've tested the HST's in a few different ways but what I was quoting was the results you posted..

But did you test it against a jellyfish wearing 4 jean jackets???

buckshotshorty
09-07-2009, 13:06
Murray's reply: I use Ranger T and Gold Dot or HST all non p 230 loads


+1 Those are my top three choices in no particular order.

ESPIONAGE
09-07-2009, 13:28
hey anyone know whether the newer style ranger t series is available for .45? and in +P flavor?

one"Lucky"shot
09-07-2009, 13:38
Let an old Military and Law Enforcement Officer get in here. Any projetile hitting the human body at 1,000 feet a second is going to cause shock trauma and soft tissue damge regardless of it's shape. The Military only use ball FMJ ammo to kill people and it has worked extremly well for over 200 years now. FMJ also have less FTF problems as they were designed by John Moses Browning to do just that. Every enemy I ever shot with a 230 FMJ ball slug never got up to contine his aggresive actions against me. That said, any enemy combatant that my son shot with a 115 FMJ 9mm slug in Iraq never got up to cause him any additional problems either.

Nice rant. Thanks for your service. BUT the military does not use FMJ because they are the best for the situation.

ssgrock3
09-07-2009, 13:44
Federal Personal Defense. Forget FMJ's unless you just want to make your assailant mad.

230gr fmj does a little more damage than a light attitude adjustment. that being said, my sig 220 likes the golddot A Lot!

Bowtie
09-07-2009, 13:50
But did you test it against a jellyfish wearing 4 jean jackets???

Yeah, but it over penetrated and killed Mrs. Jellyfish wearing a leather jacket that was standing behind Mr. Jellyfish.

tuica
09-07-2009, 14:06
Wow...good number of opinions on this subject, so I will also weigh in. Firstly, I am going with the theory that with handgun rounds, bigger (and perhaps slower) rounds will always work best unless the intended target is behind a barricade. A 9mm, .40 S&W may expand to .45", but a 45 ACP will never shrink to 9mm. At standard personal defense ranges- under 21 FEET - 230 FMJ will work just dandy. That configuration is also cheaper, and will easily feed in all semi-autos. As for the US military switching to 9mm, that was a political trade-off to allow other NATO military forces to adopt our 5.56mm rifle round. Information on this can be found in 'Small Arms of the World' by Smith. Cheers...

dreis454
09-07-2009, 14:38
Wow...good number of opinions on this subject, so I will also weigh in. Firstly, I am going with the theory that with handgun rounds, bigger (and perhaps slower) rounds will always work best unless the intended target is behind a barricade. A 9mm, .40 S&W may expand to .45", but a 45 ACP will never shrink to 9mm. At standard personal defense ranges- under 21 FEET - 230 FMJ will work just dandy. That configuration is also cheaper, and will easily feed in all semi-autos. As for the US military switching to 9mm, that was a political trade-off to allow other NATO military forces to adopt our 5.56mm rifle round. Information on this can be found in 'Small Arms of the World' by Smith. Cheers...

DING! DING! DING!We have a WINNER!:cool:

MarccraM
09-07-2009, 17:59
I've changed my thinking on this issue. I've come to believe that 230 gn may not be the best for SD.

I use dpx 185 +p. Bottom line.. Penetration and hollow point expansion is directly related to speed. IMO the 45acp in 185 +p gives you the benefit of a nice heavy bullet moving fast enough to penetrate positively and expand properly.

The 230 +p moves quite a bit slower I believe.

Maxx702
09-07-2009, 19:47
One of the reasons I choose to use a .45 is because I don't want to worry about using just the right bullet.

If some dirtbag kicks in the front door and I happen to have range ammo in the G30, it's still all good!

SagKC
09-07-2009, 20:16
One of the reasons I choose to use a .45 is because I don't want to worry about using just the right bullet.

If some dirtbag kicks in the front door and I happen to have range ammo in the G30, it's still all good!

Agree, hard to argue with a .45, and based on my range trip today, I can't go wrong with either FMJ range stuff or JHP, whichever is in the mag!
Shot my G36 with Ranger T JHPs, making nice round holes, followed by Speer Lawman FMJs that made nice long horizontal holes almost an inch wide on my paper target!! :wow: Hate to think which would do the most damage to the BG...nice hollow point opened up or a nasty spinning FMJ!!
(won't hijack the thread to ask what causes the keyholing so large and spinning ammo in the first place)

farley45
09-07-2009, 20:34
My EDC is a .45 and most of the time I am carrying jacketed hollow points. I normally carry Rem. 230 gr. JHP and they shoot exactly like WWB 230 gr. FMJs. The recoil is not bad at all, so if target loads are fine for you then any standard JHP in the same weight will feel the same way.

I have carried 230 gr. FMJs before and have not felt like they would not do the job, and no amount of ballistics gell will change that most likely. I am not one who believes in a one shot stop, but I am one who believes in bigger/more/any holes leads to stopping someone from doing what they were doing before the bigger/more/any holes.

Carry what you will, but the recoil from a .45 is not that bad and any standard cartridge should suffice.

Dave T
09-07-2009, 20:36
How on earth did the the 45 ACP earn it's reputation for stopping bad guys if Ball ammo just annoys people? On top of that we're supposed to believe Marshall & Sanow, who've been debunked too many times to count. This thread contains some of the dumbest stuff I've read in quite some time. (rotflmao)

Dave

Brent10mm
09-07-2009, 22:00
I have to say that overall, my personal favorite bullet regardless of caliber...is the Speer Gold dot. 100% reliable expansion, no core/jacket separation, and deep penetration... even threw barriers.

now, that being said... in my G36 is Win Ranger T 230gr standard pressure.
I also have a bit of Federal HST 230gr std. pressure.

and while the hst's are boringly predictable in expansion, the Talon's are too impressive....http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g259/brentmyost/100_0381.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g259/brentmyost/100_0380.jpg

HST...

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g259/brentmyost/100_0382.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g259/brentmyost/100_0387.jpg

Bowtie
09-07-2009, 22:19
I have to say that overall, my personal favorite bullet regardless of caliber...is the Speer Gold dot. 100% reliable expansion, no core/jacket separation, and deep penetration... even threw barriers.

now, that being said... in my G36 is Win Ranger T 230gr standard pressure.
I also have a bit of Federal HST 230gr std. pressure.

and while the hst's are boringly predictable in expansion, the Talon's are too impressive....http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g259/brentmyost/100_0381.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g259/brentmyost/100_0380.jpg

HST...

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g259/brentmyost/100_0382.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g259/brentmyost/100_0387.jpg

Thats the same results I get out of the HST's Even when fired into a mud bank. HST's expand everytime through anything.

"Cold Dead Hands" !
09-07-2009, 22:49
How on earth did the the 45 ACP earn it's reputation for stopping bad guys if Ball ammo just annoys people? On top of that we're supposed to believe Marshall & Sanow, who've been debunked too many times to count. This thread contains some of the dumbest stuff I've read in quite some time. (rotflmao)

Dave

The .45acp FMJ is a good man-stopper, far better than many other rounds, it's just not as good as the 9mm FMJ according to numerous sources, not just the opinion of Marshal & Sanow !
Why, because most of the time, the longer than wide 9mm round-nosed bullet tumbles upon impact, which does more damage than the big, slow, fat .45acp which drills straight thru.

Read the post, where the American War Veteran said that his son, over in Iraq or Afganistan, says that the 9mm has the same affect at dropping terrorist, as he had with his .45acp when he served.

German engineering has pioneered many of the world's best inventions.
If the .45 was so much better, than the Germans would have adopted it.

Marshal & Sanow cannot be debunked, they only compiled info from all over the world to put into a series of books.
Anybody could have done it, but they did it first.
Other studies seem to back them up.

If anyone can provide proof otherwise, I'd like to see it.

Some Mr. Fackler dude, has tried & failed to debunk them for years.
I read some of Fackler's stuff, it doesn't hold up.

Dave T
09-08-2009, 10:51
I read some of Fackler's stuff, it doesn't hold up.

Well I've read all of the Marshall & Sanow published works and they don't hold up. Their understand of statistics is juvenile.

As for Fackler, yea what would an experienced Medical Doctor who has specialized in wound ballistics know compared to you? (rotflmao)

Dave

tooledws2
09-08-2009, 10:52
Federal Personal Defense. Forget FMJ's unless you just want to make your assailant mad.



lam0 esspesially with a 45 huh>?

tuica
01-19-2010, 15:04
You may want to ask the seven charging Germans -one shot,one drop- stopped by Medal of Honor recipiant Alvin York during the First World War how well the 45 ACP Hardball round works.

Iceman cHucK
01-19-2010, 18:08
You may want to ask the seven charging Germans stopped by Alvin York how well the 45 ACP Hardball round works.

Alvin left them speachless! He knew they all fall to hardball:embarassed: