View Full Version : My GLock 26 saved my bacon...
Glad I had my Glock 26 with me the other night. When I was exiting a retail establishment, into a dark parking lot, I noticed that there were two sets of very distinct footsteps behind me. I glanced back to see two men separate from each other and continue, at a slow pace, in my direction. I looked up to see that there was a truck parked next to my little black car; it was not there when I parked it a few minutes prior to this time. What to do? Draw out my weapon? Scream? Run? I remembered what I had learned from some tactical DVDs I had viewed some time back, and calmly turned around, with my hand on my Glock, in plain view of one of the men with whom I established eye contact. I continued walking back to the store, from where I had exited and waited while the workers were closing up the store. :wow:
Long story short, I felt that my Glock (with Crimson Trace laser grips) was there to protect me had I needed it...good feeling. The two men who I felt had been following me quickly met at the truck and drove off into the darkness. Were these two men a threat? I don't know. Was I over-reacting? I don't think so. I will never hesitate to carry, where it is allowed.
perpster
09-09-2009, 20:12
Excellent! Glad you're ok and that you were aware of your surroundings. Welcome to the GT.
sawgrass
09-09-2009, 21:45
Welcome to GT!
Was your gun in your purse? If not what type of carry? Did the guy following you actually see your firearm?
I carry a 26, usually IWB, or G19 OWB (winter).
Good Job!
Dalton Wayne
09-09-2009, 21:49
:welcome: good decision on your choice of gun and actions
Never Nervous
09-10-2009, 20:08
You did well. Remembering your training under pressure is what saves the bacon.
Thanks!
Happy to be on the forum:wavey: I've been watching it for a while and finally decided to post something. Glad this scenario had a good ending!
Sawgrass,
I had my Glock 26 in my purse as I was walking to my car but made sure that those men who were behind me saw it in my hand when I turned around! Although I had not put a round in the chamber, I would bet that seeing the laser coming out of the end (it engages automatically with the Glock 26) as I picked it up, changed their minds about following me.
Whew!
sawgrass
09-10-2009, 21:43
drpdw,
Clearly, you felt threatened to pull your weapon out. They left, and you are not harmed. A close friend of mine was attacked from behind and raped in a mall
parking ramp. I wish all women carried. When I took my CC class, the instructor told
me about a book called "The Gift of Fear", by Gavin De Becker. It is primarily about
women trusting our feelings, and using that intuition to protect ourselves.
Again, good job.
Sawgrass
ncglock30
09-10-2009, 22:08
Glad you are okay and it was a happy ending drpdw. Now put one in the chamber and learn to feel comfortable carrying it that way. If they had come at you, would you have had time to chamber and fire a round at both guys before they got to you?
Where in Knoxville are you talking about?? Born and raised in K-Town for 34 years. I would like to know so I can inform my wife....:wavey:
Dreamaster
09-11-2009, 08:29
Way to go.
Always trust your instincts and never second guess it! Glad you are safe!
mythaeus
09-16-2009, 12:50
Sawgrass,
I had my Glock 26 in my purse as I was walking to my car but made sure that those men who were behind me saw it in my hand when I turned around! Although I had not put a round in the chamber, I would bet that seeing the laser coming out of the end (it engages automatically with the Glock 26) as I picked it up, changed their minds about following me.
Whew!
I'm glad you are OK, but why do you carry a lasered up hammer ready to arm a purse snatcher?
Al
Mythaeus,
My Glock 26 is my bedroom Alamo gun and I carry it, especially at night. It has Crimson Trace Grips on it. When I removed the Glock from my bag and turned around, the always-on laser was visible to these jerks when I put it my hand. I truly don't know what these guys were up to that night, but I thought it prudent to calmly show them that I was armed. My trigger finger, was just below the laser, and, I didn't have one in the chamber.
Sounds like you did well, you kept calm and didn't overreact. Although I do agree with another poster on having one chambered. Glad your safe.
mythaeus
09-19-2009, 07:48
Mythaeus,
My Glock 26 is my bedroom Alamo gun and I carry it, especially at night. It has Crimson Trace Grips on it. When I removed the Glock from my bag and turned around, the always-on laser was visible to these jerks when I put it my hand. I truly don't know what these guys were up to that night, but I thought it prudent to calmly show them that I was armed. My trigger finger, was just below the laser, and, I didn't have one in the chamber.
What you did and the outcome was the absolutely best of both worlds and no one can argue that! However, I have to be critical about 2 factors simply because every self-defense situation is not the same and what happened to you was as ideal as it could get, but you may not be so lucky next time (God forbid).
1. You carry on an empty chamber. In a high-adrenaline and situations where the attacker may have grabbed 1 of your hands/arms, or when your actually draw quickly and every second counts, it's a bad, bad, bad idea. The Israeli used to carry this way because the older guns will accidentally fire when dropped. They don't do this any more because modern guns do go off on their own, especially not Glocks and I assume you carry your gun in some sort of holster so the chance of a negligent discharge is close to zero.
2. You carry in your purse. Off body carry is the worst method of carry due to extremely restrictive/slow access. If your purse is snatched, you've effectively armed a purse snatcher. I understand that it's more difficult for women to body carry, but many do and do so effectively.
Just a few things to ponder. If you haven't been to a pistol self defense shooting class, find one your area. You'll hear over and over again about these 2 things I mentioned.
Al
What you did and the outcome was the absolutely best of both worlds and no one can argue that! However, I have to be critical about 2 factors simply because every self-defense situation is not the same and what happened to you was as ideal as it could get, but you may not be so lucky next time (God forbid).
1. You carry on an empty chamber. In a high-adrenaline and situations where the attacker may have grabbed 1 of your hands/arms, or when your actually draw quickly and every second counts, it's a bad, bad, bad idea. The Israeli used to carry this way because the older guns will accidentally fire when dropped. They don't do this any more because modern guns do go off on their own, especially not Glocks and I assume you carry your gun in some sort of holster so the chance of a negligent discharge is close to zero.
2. You carry in your purse. Off body carry is the worst method of carry due to extremely restrictive/slow access. If your purse is snatched, you've effectively armed a purse snatcher. I understand that it's more difficult for women to body carry, but many do and do so effectively.
Just a few things to ponder. If you haven't been to a pistol self defense shooting class, find one your area. You'll hear over and over again about these 2 things I mentioned.
Al
Al,
I've read your comments and those from others and the consensus is that I need to be comfortable 1. keeping a round in the chamber at all times and 2. carrying my Glock on my person and not in my purse. I appreciate all of the suggestions that I have read on GT. It's an excellent forum to both share with and learn from others.
perpster
09-19-2009, 22:08
You must, must, must get used to carrying one in the chamber, and topping off the magazine immediately after charging the chamber. Known as "10+1" if you're using the standard OEM G26 10 round mag.
I'm glad you are OK, but why do you carry a lasered up hammer ready to arm a purse snatcher?
Al
I truly need to rethink my personal carry protocol and decide how I need to carry. Having read and re-read your message and others, carrying my Glock in my purse is not the best way to go, for a variety of reasons, including your compelling one.
PDW
You must, must, must get used to carrying one in the chamber, and topping off the magazine immediately after charging the chamber. Known as "10+1" if you're using the standard OEM G26 10 round mag.
I do have the standard double-stack 10-round magazine for my Glock 26 and have a 15-round mag for the range, where I exercise my G26 weekly (work and time permitting), 80% with the iron sites (moleskin covering the CT aperture) and 20% with the laser active. So far, so good. NOW, I truly must get used to having one in the chamber, if not, according to what I have read on GT, and heard from others, why bother to carry? I must also find the best way to carry on my person.
Thanks for your sage advice.
-PDW
Glad you are okay and it was a happy ending drpdw. Now put one in the chamber and learn to feel comfortable carrying it that way. If they had come at you, would you have had time to chamber and fire a round at both guys before they got to you?
O.K., How do you personally carry your weapon? I don't wear loose-fitting tactical gear and only wear a belt for decoration, over a top or sweater and sometimes, under a blazer.
-PDW
When my wife decided to start carrying I urged her to adopt just those two practices: carry on your body (not in a purse) and carry it with a round chambered. She does both.
I would suggest a belly band or Smart Carry holster. Neither need a belt to hold them in place and can be worn with skirts, pants, dresses, whatever.
My wife carries her gun in a Smart Carry, but the G26 is big enough that that might show too much if you're wearing pants that are tight enough. You're call, but a belly band, worn at waist level with a shirt over it will work 95% of the time.
mythaeus
09-22-2009, 15:13
Al,
I've read your comments and those from others and the consensus is that I need to be comfortable 1. keeping a round in the chamber at all times and 2. carrying my Glock on my person and not in my purse. I appreciate all of the suggestions that I have read on GT. It's an excellent forum to both share with and learn from others.
I'm glad you're receptive to opinions. A lot of people tend to be adamant when criticized, but am sure glad you're not one of them and recognize that we all always mean well here. :yourock:
I do have the standard double-stack 10-round magazine for my Glock 26 and have a 15-round mag for the range, where I exercise my G26 weekly (work and time permitting), 80% with the iron sites (moleskin covering the CT aperture) and 20% with the laser active. So far, so good. NOW, I truly must get used to having one in the chamber, if not, according to what I have read on GT, and heard from others, why bother to carry? I must also find the best way to carry on my person.
Thanks for your sage advice.
-PDW
First, let me address the mag. I think you should ALWAYS practice with the same mags that you carry in your gun. The 15-rd mag sticks out, changes the way your pinky grips the gun, and increases the overall weight and feel of the gun at the range. You then turn around and carry a 10-rd mags which isn't really what you practice with. My opinion is to get 2 more 10-rd mags and the +0 Pierce finger extensions on them to give you the best grip and allow you to practice with mags that you carry with your gun.
Here's what the +0 Pierce grip looks like on my G26:
http://www.luckycouple.com/photos/guns/glock_26_07.jpg
As you can see, it doesn't extend the grip much as all while provide for a better grip on your gun. Of course, all of this assume that you don't have the extension already. Still, my point stands on practicing with the mags that you carry.
Secondly, let me tell you that when I started carrying, I was very scared and also did not carry a round in the chamber. That lasted less than 1 day. What I ended up realizing is that when you carry on-body and in a good holster, the gun doesn't move at all. The trigger guard is completely covered and there is virtually zero chance of negligent discharge (ND). I'd be more afraid of reaching into my purse (well, not me per se since I don't carry a purse), the gun may have came out of the holster which can lead to ND. So my advice to those who are timid about carrying the gun on-body chambered right away, try it for 1 day without a round in the chamber. Walk around the house, sit, stand, jump, do whatever you do normally and see if the gun would have any remote chance of going off by itself. The fact is that if the chance is high, you'd be hearing about it all the time!
OK, the last part is very hard. How can women conceal on-body more effectively? A lot of it will have to do with changing or modifying your style. Gosh, how do you tell a woman to get pants 1 size bigger to be able to carry inside waist band (IWB)? You can also get a high ride outside waist band (OWB) holster, but that may dig a little into your body. But...
I won't lie to you...my wife is petite and she refuses to carry the G26. It's just not concealable and she's not ready to change her style. We ended up getting her a Ruger LCP, which she ankle usually carries when she goes to work, and carry IWB otherwise. The LCP is a difficult gun to shoot and takes several practice trips to get use to. With the price and availability of .380ACP ammo currently, it may be a rather unattractive options. However, something like a single-stack Kahr MK9 may be small enough to consider.
One last thing, let me circle back to the mags thing. Carry a reload (extra mag) whenever you can (preferably always). As reliable as it is, mags may malfunction, gun may jam, ammo may fail....and you may have to deal with multiple assailant.
Alright, enough of that...just some food for thought really. I practice all of what I wrote and feel good about my mode/habit of carry.
Al
I'm glad you're receptive to opinions. A lot of people tend to be adamant when criticized, but am sure glad you're not one of them and recognize that we all always mean well here. :yourock:
First, let me address the mag. I think you should ALWAYS practice with the same mags that you carry in your gun. The 15-rd mag sticks out, changes the way your pinky grips the gun, and increases the overall weight and feel of the gun at the range. You then turn around and carry a 10-rd mags which isn't really what you practice with. My opinion is to get 2 more 10-rd mags and the +0 Pierce finger extensions on them to give you the best grip and allow you to practice with mags that you carry with your gun.
Here's what the +0 Pierce grip looks like on my G26:
http://www.luckycouple.com/photos/guns/glock_26_07.jpg
As you can see, it doesn't extend the grip much as all while provide for a better grip on your gun. Of course, all of this assume that you don't have the extension already. Still, my point stands on practicing with the mags that you carry.
Secondly, let me tell you that when I started carrying, I was very scared and also did not carry a round in the chamber. That lasted less than 1 day. What I ended up realizing is that when you carry on-body and in a good holster, the gun doesn't move at all. The trigger guard is completely covered and there is virtually zero chance of negligent discharge (ND). I'd be more afraid of reaching into my purse (well, not me per se since I don't carry a purse), the gun may have came out of the holster which can lead to ND. So my advice to those who are timid about carrying the gun on-body chambered right away, try it for 1 day without a round in the chamber. Walk around the house, sit, stand, jump, do whatever you do normally and see if the gun would have any remote chance of going off by itself. The fact is that if the chance is high, you'd be hearing about it all the time!
OK, the last part is very hard. How can women conceal on-body more effectively? A lot of it will have to do with changing or modifying your style. Gosh, how do you tell a woman to get pants 1 size bigger to be able to carry inside waist band (IWB)? You can also get a high ride outside waist band (OWB) holster, but that may dig a little into your body. But...
I won't lie to you...my wife is petite and she refuses to carry the G26. It's just not concealable and she's not ready to change her style. We ended up getting her a Ruger LCP, which she ankle usually carries when she goes to work, and carry IWB otherwise. The LCP is a difficult gun to shoot and takes several practice trips to get use to. With the price and availability of .380ACP ammo currently, it may be a rather unattractive options. However, something like a single-stack Kahr MK9 may be small enough to consider.
One last thing, let me circle back to the mags thing. Carry a reload (extra mag) whenever you can (preferably always). As reliable as it is, mags may malfunction, gun may jam, ammo may fail....and you may have to deal with multiple assailant.
Alright, enough of that...just some food for thought really. I practice all of what I wrote and feel good about my mode/habit of carry.
Al
Al,
I already have the Pierce extension on both of my 10-round mags. I made those adjustments after the first time I shot my Glock 26. As long as I put a dab of moleskin on my little finger (dominant hand), I'm comfortable since I have small hands.
RE: the 15-round mag. I will take your advice RE: practicing with the mag I carry (i.e., 10-round), but I will still use the 15-mag in conjunction with the 10-round mag. BTW, I practice with the iron sites 85% of my range time and take the moleskin off the CTL aperture the remaining 15%.
RE: how to carry the G26? I'll just have to work that out, but appreciate all of your suggestions! BTW, I am looking at a Keltec PF-9 9mm for a potential alternate carry weapon.
PDW:)
Hhmmm...I have nothing but admiration for the way this thread's author handled this situation. And, since I've never had to experience anything resembling what she encountered, I don't think I feel qualified to be offering her any advice on what I think she should have done, or what I think that she should do the next time she (God forbid!) finds herself in a similar situation. I think I would be more likely just to try my hardest to emulate the good judgment she showed, given her circumstances. I think I would be very much interested in understanding the rationale for everything that she chose to do, and what she chose not to do. But, again...that's just me. I have no advice, just admiration.--Patrice
Patrice,
I sincerely appreciate your kind words. I simply did the best I could in that situation. RE: rationale for what I chose to do? I hoped that showing the Crimson Trace laser to my escorts would send them swiftly on their way, without me having to engage them in a Glock 26 conversation, if you know what I mean!
-PDW
Where in Knoxville are you talking about?? Born and raised in K-Town for 34 years. I would like to know so I can inform my wife....:wavey:
Just read your question...I was at Turkey Creek and will not go there again after dark.
-PDW
Stage whisper: Sorry to interrupt this thread with an unsolicited announcement (everyone knows how much I hate that:whistling: <smile><smile><smile>)...I have received some measure of support re: my peculiar notions about displays of paternalism in a women's forum, so I'll continue to contribute on this side of the fence, albeit with judicious use of GT's Ignore-List function. Again, excuse me for interrupting...</smile></smile></smile>
Hhmm...that drpdw, classy lady. I hear she dresses nice too...bet she doesn't wear a skort when she conceal-carries! {Oops, sorry...that piece of male advice was bestowed upon us in another thread in this sub-forum. My apologies. <smile>]--Patrice</smile>
:blondmoment:
Patrice,
Isn't a skort a new millennium male codpiece to wear over a Speedo? Never :wow: saw a skort...no intentions of ever trying one on, let alone, wear one. If I'm going to wear shorts, I'll wear shorts! I do, however, don a double lyrca skin under my 1/4 inch wetsuit when doing search and recovery..but, obviously, where and how to carry my G26 in this venue is a moot point, n'est-ce pas? :rofl:
-PDW:)
Stage whisper: Sorry to interrupt this thread with an unsolicited announcement (everyone knows how much I hate that:whistling: <smile><smile><smile>)...I have received some measure of support re: my peculiar notions about displays of paternalism in a women's forum, so I'll continue to contribute on this side of the fence, albeit with judicious use of GT's Ignore-List function. Again, excuse me for interrupting...</smile></smile></smile>
Hhmm...that drpdw, classy lady. I hear she dresses nice too...bet she doesn't wear a skort when she conceal-carries! {Oops, sorry...that piece of male advice was bestowed upon us in another thread in this sub-forum. My apologies. <smile>]--Patrice</smile>
:blondmoment:
Patrice,
Isn't a skort a new millennium male codpiece? Never :wow: one...no intentions of ever trying one on, let alone, wear one. If I'm going to wear shorts, I'll wear shorts! I do, however, don a double lyrca skin under my 1/4 inch wetsuit when doing search and recovery..but, obviously, where and how to carry my G26 in this venue is a moot point, n'est-ce pas? :rofl:
-PDW:)
Lone_Wolfe
09-28-2009, 03:14
drpdw, there's been some good advice given here. But the biggest thing that saved you was your awareness of what was happening around you. Keeping your antenna up like that is the single most important thing you can do.
Good job! :thumbsup:
Thanks, Lone_Wolf!
I have no regrets about pulling out my G26 and am delighted that I did not have to engage those potential BGs in a Glock conversation.
-PDW:)
Glolt20-91
10-05-2009, 15:50
Mythaeus,
My Glock 26 is my bedroom Alamo gun and I carry it, especially at night. It has Crimson Trace Grips on it. When I removed the Glock from my bag and turned around, the always-on laser was visible to these jerks when I put it my hand. I truly don't know what these guys were up to that night, but I thought it prudent to calmly show them that I was armed. My trigger finger, was just below the laser, and, I didn't have one in the chamber.
I must be missing something here from a LEO viewpoint. At what point did two guys (now known as jerks) returning to their pickup in a parking lot escalate to a situation of lethal force?
You may want to check with your state laws on what criteria constitutes threatening with firearm. In this state, endangerment or "threatening" (being lasered would probably fall in this category) could be criminally prosecuted.
With what you've posted so far, I'm not sure how you would legally justify brandishing a lasered firearm if these two "jerks" decided to file criminal/civil charges against you.
Bob :cowboy:
Bob,
How would YOU have handled this situation that I thankfully lived through that night? Let's briefly review this scenario. I want you to put yourself in my situation that night...
You are female, on the physically small side, you are alone and there is no one else in sight. You are walking swiftly and purposely to your car in the parking lot of a retail establishment that is now closing. The parking lot is now deserted, for the exception of your car and a large truck parked next to your vehicle, which was NOT there before you went into the store. There were, however, a few cars scattered throughout the lot. You hear two men walking directly behind you, and then you hear them split up, and appear to be gaining on you and moving closer to your person. Having been through both safety and carry classes, and having watched several tactical self-defense DVDs, you are geared toward self-preservation in potentially threatening situations, and you are on the alert. You know what you've been taught ---and you assess the situation, as calmly as you can, witout panicing, prior to pulling out your weapon. (You have a Glock 16 with laser sights in your purse...but don't have one in the chamber.) The faster YOU walk, the faster THEY walk...and, you don't think that these men want to escort you to your car. Let me reiterate, you don't want to draw your weapon, but you definitely feel threatened enough (having internal radar as a female and trusting your instincts) to pull out your Glock (but NOT point it at center mass), and let them know that you are armed. As you undoubtedly know, on the CG26, Crimson Trace grips are always on.
Bob, what would YOU have done in my size 6 1/2 shoes?
-PDW
I must be missing something here from a LEO viewpoint. At what point did two guys (now known as jerks) returning to their pickup in a parking lot escalate to a situation of lethal force?
You may want to check with your state laws on what criteria constitutes threatening with firearm. In this state, endangerment or "threatening" (being lasered would probably fall in this category) could be criminally prosecuted.
With what you've posted so far, I'm not sure how you would legally justify brandishing a lasered firearm if these two "jerks" decided to file criminal/civil charges against you.
Bob :cowboy:
BikerGoddess
10-06-2009, 07:13
I must be missing something here from a LEO viewpoint. At what point did two guys (now known as jerks) returning to their pickup in a parking lot escalate to a situation of lethal force?
You may want to check with your state laws on what criteria constitutes threatening with firearm. In this state, endangerment or "threatening" (being lasered would probably fall in this category) could be criminally prosecuted.
With what you've posted so far, I'm not sure how you would legally justify brandishing a lasered firearm if these two "jerks" decided to file criminal/civil charges against you.
Bob :cowboy:
drpdw - Glad you were unhurt.
Bob - Did you want her to wait until she'd have bruises to show? She felt threatened by the actions of two men who are larger and stronger than her. As law enforcement, you must be familiar with the Tueller Drill.
She also knew that her gun was unloaded and that it would take time to chamber a round if she needed it.
I was once told "Don't worry about appear rude if you feel in danger; the bad guys don't care and the good guys will understand." If I were in her situation and the pantywaists called the cops, I'd just hope they'd see the situation and disparity of force and not second guess me for protecting myself, alone, at night, with two guys who gave me a hinky feeling....
sawgrass
10-06-2009, 09:18
(having internal radar as a female and trusting your instincts)
PDW,
DO NOT SECOND GUESS YOURSELF FOR ONE SECOND.
So you took a chance of possibly brandishing your weapon.
BOTTOM LINE, you weren't hurt and they didn't call the police.
AGAIN, to all women. There is a great book about using our instincts,
radar, intuition, whatever you want to call it, "THE GIFT OF FEAR", BY Gavin De Becker.
Did you want her to wait until she'd have bruises to show?
BOB, honestly???
Sawgrass
wrencher
10-06-2009, 09:44
It's easy on the internet to 'monday morning quarterback' any situation.
Bottom line, I do not believe that most men have any idea how a woman feels when she sees one or more men, close to her, at night, and she is alone.
I think in this case, it's better to overreact, and live to tell about it, than underestimate the threat, and become another statistic.
I also believe these guys were up to no good. Think about it-if they were normal regular guys, just harmlessly walking back to their truck, and someone pulled a gun on them, wouldn't you hightail it out of there and call the cops????
It seems that PDW reacted the way many of us would, is unhurt, and will hopefully learn to carry her Glock with one chambered.:supergrin:
You go, girl.
First let me say I am glad you are OK and nobody was hurt.
Scenarios like this have been talked about many of times on this forum.
I had an experience one time and to this day am not sure if I was in danger or if it was in my mind. I was exiting a range one day and two fellas who were parked in front of me who thought they had my truck pinned in got out of their car and each one started to walk to either side of my truck while watching them come at me or so I thought they were coming at me I took out my XD45C an set it on my center council while I was watching them and trying to get my truck out of it parking spot. I new if they were armed I was a dead man because I was in a car that could go nowhere. Luckily a car turned in to the parking lot and that gave me time to wiggle my truck out of the spot. They from my perspective just kept walking.
All this happened is just a few seconds. To this day I keep asking myself, was this as bad as I though or was it something else. I will never know. This range was known to have a bad element visit it.
My point is you could of tried walking between cars to another isle in the parking lot. If they followed you then you know something is up. I do agree with Bob though that if they were just guys going to their car you could be in some trouble right now.
I am not a good looking guy and someone could look at me and think I was a bad element. :) In this case noting bad happened, you are safe and we are all a bit wiser. Please do not get the wrong idea from people questioning your motives. None of us were there and I know exactly where you are coming from. That feeling you were feeling is not a good one. We just look back at situations like this and learn.
I understand that she could have been in a little trouble over this, but I would much rather her go with her instincts than second guess herself long enough to get jumped. I feel like she showed a good compromise between listening to her instinct, and restraint given the nature of the threat. I personally think her level of restraint was perfect. She didn't point the gun at them, she didn't yell threatening remarks, she didn't start blasting away. I say "bravo" in handling a very scary and unpredictable situation. I could never say she went too far unless I was there.
That being said, we all have a duty to know the laws in our own state. Looking at Texas law, I think she would have been o.k., especially given the tendency of Texas grand juries to sympathize with the victim or potential victim.
Texas law says (and I'm paraphrasing), that drawing your weapon is considered "use of force" not "deadly force", and is justifyable if your intention was to create the impression that your would use deadly force if necessary. So when is "use of force" authorized (i.e. - when is it o.k. to brandish a weapon)?
"Use of force is authorized, and presumed reasonable, if it is the actor's belief that the force was immdeiately necessary if the actor knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery."
At least in Texas, I think she'd be fine. Of course, that all depends on the judge and jury. Regardless, she'd still be alive.
Sawgrass,
I had my Glock 26 in my purse as I was walking to my car but made sure that those men who were behind me saw it in my hand when I turned around! Although I had not put a round in the chamber, I would bet that seeing the laser coming out of the end (it engages automatically with the Glock 26) as I picked it up, changed their minds about following me.
Whew!
Get a pocket holster or use a pocket in the purse for the Glock and load the chamber. ;)
Glolt20-91
10-06-2009, 13:08
My girlfriend and I talked about your experience at length and have talked about some of her own personal experiences. You own the memory of your experience and keyboard "what if" exchanges simply don't work, your visualizations and my visualizations of your posts will leave different impressions.
If the intent of these two men was to assault you, what overt signs did they exhibit? Did you notice either of these guys w/i the store, did they exit with you, who exited with you?
If one guy drove to this retail extablishment to pick up an employee/friend/brother/son/father and they were in a hurry to get back to their p/u then . . . ???
If you felt threatened enough to pull a lasered gun on these two guys, why no 911 call?
I believe you delayed in following your instincts, which would have been when you heard their footsteps fast approaching you. At that time one route of escape would have been to make a perpendicular turn while keeping your hand in your purse and on the Glock. (You lost the tactical advantage when these two guys split up). Another scenario would have you telling these guys to emphatically back off because you felt threatened by their approach.
Only you can critique and learn from your actions. I urge you to educate yourself with your state gun laws and to operate w/i the framework of the law. We unfortunately live in a litigious society that's gone off the edge of common sense and there are those who have nothing to lose in going after those who have worked hard to benefit the common good.
Every CCW gun owner needs to have a copy of this book for their resident state. Here's a quote from the Arizona book, many states have similar laws; I think some of this is pure BS, but it does outline the social framework we live in.
Can You Point a Gun At Someone?
No matter how many aces you are holding, you can’t settle the matter with a gun. This also shows how the law can be interpreted in more than one way.
If the gun you draw is loaded, you create a substantial risk of imminent death, a class 6 felony called endangerment. (Without the risk of death endangerment is a class 1 misdemeanor). Using a gun to put a person in reasonable fear of imminent physical injury is aggravated assault – a class 3 felony. A more lenient view would be to say this is “reckless display of a gun,” which is disorderly conduct, a class 6 felony. Merely flashing a gun can be threatening or intimidating, a class 1 misdemeanor. At the very least this is criminal nuisance, a class 3 misdemeanor.
When you go to court, it could be argued that this is actually attempted murder, a class 2 felony. And if the guy is angry enough to take back his money, it becomes armed robbery, also a class 2 felony.
By drawing your gun, the other guy may be able to shoot you dead and legally claim self defense. You may never pull a gun to leverage an argument.
If someone pointed a gun at you, would you get angry and want to see them arrested? Consider how someone would feel if your roles were reversed, and it was you who pulled the gun when it wasn’t absolutely necessary to prevent a life - threatening situation.
Despite all this, the law recognizes your right to defend yourself, your loved ones, and other people. The law also recognizes a citizen’s right to act to prevent certain crimes. These cases when you can point a gun at another person:
1 – Arson of an occupied structure
2 – First or second degree burglary
3 – Kidnapping
4 – Manslaughter
5 – First or second degree murder
6 – Sexual conduct with a minor
7 – Sexual assault
8 – Child molestation
9 – Armed robbery
10 – Aggravated assault
Arizona Gun Owner’s Guide, by Alan Korwin, Bloomfield Press: Phoenix, Arizona; 2004.
www.gunlaws.com
Here are some facts to give you some input to help you survive a "street" incident. Eighty percent of crime is committed by those who have served prison time and subsequently released. Prison is a great learning facility where these felons practice subverting LE procedures. The blade to gun assault ratio is 6:1, so . . . if these two guys were really bad guys, you faced an 80% chance that they had many more real life experiences doing what they do than you in protecting yourself. If they were bad guys who intended to assault you and were w/i 7yds of your position, the odds are that you would have been a victim.
On a side note, given my background experiences, to those who state I've never experienced fear is just a plain stupid assumption. I, like you, am a survivor. :thumbsup:
Enjoy,
Bob :cowboy:
Bob,
How would YOU have handled this situation that I thankfully lived through that night? Let's briefly review this scenario. I want you to put yourself in my situation that night...
You are female, on the physically small side, you are alone and there is no one else in sight. You are walking swiftly and purposely to your car in the parking lot of a retail establishment that is now closing. The parking lot is now deserted, for the exception of your car and a large truck parked next to your vehicle, which was NOT there before you went into the store. There were, however, a few cars scattered throughout the lot. You hear two men walking directly behind you, and then you hear them split up, and appear to be gaining on you and moving closer to your person. Having been through both safety and carry classes, and having watched several tactical self-defense DVDs, you are geared toward self-preservation in potentially threatening situations, and you are on the alert. You know what you've been taught ---and you assess the situation, as calmly as you can, witout panicing, prior to pulling out your weapon. (You have a Glock 16 with laser sights in your purse...but don't have one in the chamber.) The faster YOU walk, the faster THEY walk...and, you don't think that these men want to escort you to your car. Let me reiterate, you don't want to draw your weapon, but you definitely feel threatened enough (having internal radar as a female and trusting your instincts) to pull out your Glock (but NOT point it at center mass), and let them know that you are armed. As you undoubtedly know, on the CG26, Crimson Trace grips are always on.
Bob, what would YOU have done in my size 6 1/2 shoes?
-PDW
Bob,
Interesting how there are so many different perspectives to this scenario and answers to the, "what if..." The law enforcement officers I shoot with every Tuesday morning at the range told me that I did the right thing but chastised me for not having a round in the chamber when I carry.
Nuf said, Bob. Stay safe.
-PDW
Glolt20-91
10-06-2009, 15:59
Bob,
Interesting how there are so many different perspectives to this scenario and answers to the, "what if..." The law enforcement officers I shoot with every Tuesday morning at the range told me that I did the right thing but chastised me for not having a round in the chamber when I carry.
Nuf said, Bob. Stay safe.
-PDW
Well, with that being said makes this case closed, good luck with your continued training and stay safe. :thumbsup:
Bob :cowboy:
Glolt20-91
10-07-2009, 02:08
[quote=drpdw;13919702]Bob,
Interesting how there are so many different perspectives to this scenario and answers to the, "what if..." The law enforcement officers I shoot with every Tuesday morning at the range told me that I did the right thing ....
-----------------------------------------------------------
I have some questions.... Why is it the men who almost always second-guess us??? Is it because they are so much more worldly? Is it because they are smarter? Is it because they are physically stronger? Or, is it because they are men, and we are not?:nsb:
:kilt:
Do they monitor the posts in this sub-forum to make sure we do not go astray, get too wrong headed, or spend too much time worrying our little heads (pretty or not) about things we do not have the capacity to adequately understand?:dunno:
:horsey:
Do they intervene, to protect us from ourselves?--Patrice
I must have forgotten to mention the five concealed gun rules from the NRA, thank you for reminding me;
Five Rules For Concealed Carry
1) Your Concealed Handgun Is For Protection Of Life Only.
Draw it solely in preparation to protect yourself, your family, or an innocent third party from the wrongful and life-threatening criminal actions of another.
2) Know Exactly When You Can Use Your Gun.
A criminal adversary must have, or reasonably appear to have:
a) the ability to inflict serious bodily injury (he is armed or reasonably appears to be armed with a deadly weapon),
b) the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm (he is physically positioned to harm you with his weapon),
c) and his intent (hostile actions or words) indicates that he means to place you in jeopardy -- to do you serious or fatal physical harm.
When all three of these "attack potential" elements are in place simultaneously, then you are facing a reasonably perceived deadly threat that can justify an emergency deadly force response.
3) If You Can Run Away -- RUN!
Just because you’re armed doesn’t necessarily mean you must confront a bad guy at gunpoint. Develop your "situation awareness" skills so you can be alert to detect and avoid trouble altogether. Keep in mind that if you successfully evade a potential confrontation, the single negative consequence involved might be your bruised ego, which should heal with mature rationalization. But if you force a confrontation you risk the possibility of you or a family member being killed or suffering lifelong crippling/disfiguring physical injury, criminal liability and/or financial ruin from civil lawsuit. Flee if you can, fight only as a last resort.
4) Display Your Gun - Go To Jail.
If you "brandish" your firearm, you should expect to be arrested by police at gunpoint. You may be charged with a crime anytime your concealed handgun is seen by another citizen in public, regardless of how unintentional or innocent or justified the situation might seem, unless you live in an "open carry" state such as Virginia. Choose a method of carry that reliably keeps your gun hidden from public view at all times, if this is the case. Obviously if you live in an open carry state, your firearm may be visible and no charges will be filed unless it is brandished.
You have no control over how a stranger will react to seeing (or learning about) your concealed handgun. He or she might become alarmed and report you to police as a "man or woman with a gun." Depending on his or her feelings about firearms, this person might be willing to maliciously embellish his or her story in attempt to have your gun seized by police or to get you arrested. An alarmed citizen who reports a "man with a gun" is going to be more credible to police than you when you're stopped because you match the suspect's description, and you're found to have a concealed handgun in your possession.
Before you deliberately expose (brandish) your gun in public, ask yourself: "Is this worth going to jail for?" The only time this question should warrant a "yes" response is when an adversary has at least, both ability and intent, and is actively seeking the opportunity to do you great harm.
5) Don't Let Your Emotions Get The Best Of You.
If, despite your best efforts to the contrary, you do get into some kind of heated dispute with another person while you’re armed, never mention, imply or exhibit your gun for the purpose of intimidation or one-upmanship. You’ll simply make a bad situation worse -- for yourself (see rule #4).
Use of Deadly Force for Lawful Self-Defense
In receiving a license to carry a concealed firearm for lawful self-defense, you are undertaking a great responsibility. A license to carry a concealed firearm is not a license to use it. I am sure you share my hope that you will never find it necessary to use a firearm in self-defense. If you do, the law will protect you only if you have acted within the law. Those who are choosing to arm themselves with firearms should, therefore, be armed with the most indispensable weapon of all ........ knowledge.
Concealed Carry Facts & Statistics
Today, there are only 2 states that do not have a right-to-carry system.
States with right-to-carry laws have lower overall violent crime rates, compared to states without right-to-carry laws. In states whose laws respect the citizen's right-to-carry guns for self defense the total violent crime is 13% lower, homicide is 3% lower, robbery is 26% lower and aggravated assault is 7% lower.
http://www.concealedhandgunhunter.com/CHL_Purpose.html
Same rules at -- Phoenix Area NRA Certified Instructors and Trainers
http://www.orgsites.com/az/certified/
A lot of dollars were spent by this individual in this recent Appeal’s Court decision;
http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/docs/pdf/12/2009/2009-ohio-3309.pdf
Everyone who has been issued a concealed weapons permit should have been taught these five basic carry rules.
FWIW, I've also spoken with some of my LEO friends about the origins of this thread and received mixed reactions, from no big deal to a quote I can't write. The one who came down the hardest on drpdw's scenario, a female officer, which played out the way I anticipated.
Bob
JohnCaile
10-07-2009, 05:33
I have been a firearm instructor for more than 40 years, and a Minnesota Carry Permit instructor since our law was passed (I am also Communications Director for CCRN, the group that passed the Minnesota law).
But I also was lucky enough to have spent many years as a young child in my grandfather's courtroom - he was a famous criminal court judge in Chicago. And the most important thing he taught me was this: "People always ask 'what does the law say?' Well, pay no attention to those 'experts' who tell you what is or is not self-defense. At the end of the day, 12 people who don't know you and weren't there will decide what the law means. Because out there in the courtroom is where the law actually happens."
Bottom line?
Do your best to avoid conflict situations in the first place. Most self-defense claims fail because the defendant simply shouldn't have said what they said, did what they did, or went where they went, BEFORE the actual threat occured.
Pay attention to that little "threat alarm" we all have - it can warn you before things get out of control.
Carry only an UTTERLY reliable gun - that means a revolver, or an auto-pistol with a reputation for reliability (yes, like a Glock) and even then only after YOU have put a minimum of several hundred rounds through it, including at least several dozen rounds of the EXACT ammo you carry for defense.
Carry discreetly but in a manner that allows SECURITY and ACCESSABILITY - sorry, purses (or briefcases) are not the best solution. You should also practice drawing at home while you are dressed exactly as you dress for that time of year - here in Minnesota, where the Winter temps can hit double digits below zero, it can be an especially illuminating exercise.
Carry auto-loading pistols with a round in the chamber - no exceptions. And, while "topping off" the magazine is in currently in vogue, I know of at least two situations where police officer's guns jammed after the first shot...in both cases precisely because they crammed in that last round. Note: single stack mags as in 1911's or Kahrs can be topped off without a much chance of a jam, but seriously, unless you plan on being in an extended gunfight (in which case you would be carrying a rifle or shotgun), if 10 rounds, or 15, or 17 isn't enough, one more round is not going to make the difference.
Finally, the single biggest mistake defendants make in the wake of a self-defense situation is: TALKING TO POLICE WITHOUT HAVING THEIR ATTORNEY PRESENT. Other than saying "that man tried to kill me (us)" the most important thing to do is SHUT YOUR MOUTH. Say nothing about what happened. Sign nothing. Answer ALL questions with "Officer, I'll be happy to cooperate as soon as my attorney is here." If you are read your Miranda rights, and the Officer asks, "Sir, did you understand the rights we have just read to you?" Answer, "No, I don't." If you are asked what parts did you not understand, respond "I don't understand anything - that's why I'm waiting for my attorney."
Other than that, we can only do the best we can - we will seldom have more than a few seconds to react, and all perceptions will be altered. The woman who started this thread did just that - she actually did rather well under the (very scary) circumstances. Should she have said something in the way of a warning ("leave me alone" or "stay away from me")? Perhaps. But then again, we're just Monday Morning Quarterbacking.
So, be smart, be aware and you will likely be safe...or at least safer.
John Caile
www.sditraining.net (http://www.sditraining.net)
Eden Prairie, MN
Patrice,
Your insights and comments are right on target (that's for BOB!), as usual.
I'm moving on.
-PDW
Bob,
I will do everything within my power to continue staying safe.
YOU do the same.
-PDW
Well, with that being said makes this case closed, good luck with your continued training and stay safe. :thumbsup:
Bob :cowboy:
G26packer
10-07-2009, 12:30
I personally carry IWB almost all the time... I always have a round in the chamber. However, I do on occasion carry in a maxpedition bag, also with one in the chamber. When I carry in my bag, I don't feel ready, and I really don't like carrying it that way unless I absolutely have to.
The other thing about even wearing a purse is that you are basically giving any attacker a handle in which to pull you down to the ground, :faint:especially if you wear it across your chest, I am not saying don't wear a purse, but for myself, a woman carrying a purse looks more vulnerable, no purse.. no purse snatchers..... reduce the risk, keep your hands free, reduce the steps you have to take to get to your firearm.
On board holster = stays where you put it, feels more an appendage than a pain (get a good one that fits you) and with practice you develop a reflex to get your firearm that will never fail you.
Personally, on board +1 is the best way to go...
I asked my wife about this scenario without telling her it was on this forum. Her answer was
"A Woman knows when she is being targeted or stalked. It is just a feeling we have"
I can not argue with her because I trust her judgement.
Good call to the OP.
G25packer,
Thanks for taking the time to add to our forum discussion. Seems like we are starting to get some excellent dialogue.
-PDW
I personally carry IWB almost all the time... I always have a round in the chamber. However, I do on occasion carry in a maxpedition bag, also with one in the chamber. When I carry in my bag, I don't feel ready, and I really don't like carrying it that way unless I absolutely have to.
The other thing about even wearing a purse is that you are basically giving any attacker a handle in which to pull you down to the ground, :faint:especially if you wear it across your chest, I am not saying don't wear a purse, but for myself, a woman carrying a purse looks more vulnerable, no purse.. no purse snatchers..... reduce the risk, keep your hands free, reduce the steps you have to take to get to your firearm.
On board holster = stays where you put it, feels more an appendage than a pain (get a good one that fits you) and with practice you develop a reflex to get your firearm that will never fail you.
Personally, on board +1 is the best way to go...
Excellent!
Thanks for posting, Landor!
-PDW
I asked my wife about this scenario without telling her it was on this forum. Her answer was
"A Woman knows when she is being targeted or stalked. It is just a feeling we have"
I can not argue with her because I trust her judgement.
Good call to the OP.
sawgrass
10-07-2009, 22:00
"A Woman knows when she is being targeted or stalked. It is just a feeling we have"
When I took my CCW class about 2 years ago, the instructor talked alot
about going to court, and keeping yourself out of jail, if you ever have
to use your firearm. As the only woman in the class, he played out different jury scenarios, between a small woman in the class, and the guys.
He kept saying what will the jury see, when they see her, and what will
the jury see if they see one of the rest of you.
I called him and asked him to read this thread and offer me his .02.
He called me back today. He didn't seem to think drpdw overreacted.
He did offer a suggestion that might be helpful to anyone in a similar
situation, male or female. He said that if you feel like someone is following or stalking you, you should engage them in a conversation.
Turn around and say "may I help you". If they persist, say "hey, leave
me alone". If they still persist, you have clearly defined a threat.
It is at least a starting point for your defense. He said he is not an advocate of purse carry. Too much of what happens, happens in seconds.
He also reinforced that a round should be chambered.
Then he told me about two instances he is aware of, regarding LEO
where the first round fired, and the second round jammed. He told
me he is revising his opinion of +1. In the G26 instance if 10 isn't enough
11 isn't likely to matter. I DO NOT want to turn this thread into
a +1 thread. There is one already started a few threads down from
this one.
SG
G26packer
10-08-2009, 16:30
Sawgrass,
I completely agree, letting someone know that you do recognize that they are there, sometimes will deter a potential attacker.
SG,
This makes a lot of sense! I will certainly keep this in mind if I am ever in another potentially unsafe situation!
-PDW
When I took my CCW class about 2 years ago, the instructor talked alot
about going to court, and keeping yourself out of jail, if you ever have
to use your firearm. As the only woman in the class, he played out different jury scenarios, between a small woman in the class, and the guys.
He kept saying what will the jury see, when they see her, and what will
the jury see if they see one of the rest of you.
I called him and asked him to read this thread and offer me his .02.
He called me back today. He didn't seem to think drpdw overreacted.
He did offer a suggestion that might be helpful to anyone in a similar
situation, male or female. He said that if you feel like someone is following or stalking you, you should engage them in a conversation.
Turn around and say "may I help you". If they persist, say "hey, leave
me alone". If they still persist, you have clearly defined a threat.
It is at least a starting point for your defense. He said he is not an advocate of purse carry. Too much of what happens, happens in seconds.
He also reinforced that a round should be chambered.
Then he told me about two instances he is aware of, regarding LEO
where the first round fired, and the second round jammed. He told
me he is revising his opinion of +1. In the G26 instance if 10 isn't enough
11 isn't likely to matter. I DO NOT want to turn this thread into
a +1 thread. There is one already started a few threads down from
this one.
SG
First, nice to see comments taken with grace and handled with respect, in both directions. Refreshing.
Second, in real-time, SHTF situation, we are almost always reacting to things which we don't consciously remember later. In other words, our instincts notice and react to way more information than we are conscious of. Because of that, the only real judgment of how we did is what the results are when all the pieces have hit the ground. (That's why, though judicially important, "articulable suspicion" for police is artificial.)
All respect to Bob (who seems to have much to offer), since I also like to play "Monday morning quarterback": that game is important, informative, and even necessary -- but it is only an exercise. Don't let it bother you. (Not that it did, but good to say.)
You kept yourself safe, they walked away, it ended there. However you did it, you did great! And thanks for sharing with the rest of us, so we can learn!
Now, as a man, let me give you some advice ... Oops! ... sorry, impulse... never mind.
Dugo,
And who said ONLY women show grace, class and style on this forum? Your well-articulated comments were very much appreciated :cool:.
Thanks!
-drpdw
Silent_Runner
10-16-2009, 09:56
drpdw I think you handled yourself well and did exactly what you thought was best. I could not have done better.
Silent_Runner,
Thanks for your affirmation of my actions on that night several weeks back. In retrospect, I can honestly say that I truly did what I could, instinctively, to self-protect. I did learn a good lesson, however, after having carefully read several excellent posts to my initial thread:
1. I should always have a round in the chamber.
2. I need to have my weapon on my person and ready to draw, if necessary.
-drpdw
Lone_Wolfe
10-17-2009, 11:54
drpdw, I know I've stayed mostly away from the what do you carry, how do you carry it threads because I got rid of my guns so that kind of invalidates my opinions. But I'm going to give my $.02 worth here, even if just to agree with what you have already decided. I don't like purse carry because of the risk of purse snatching or forgetting the purse even for a moment. I also thing a gun without a round in the chamber won't be much good in an emergency.
One thing I've found it's normal to do is to replay the incident and begin to 2nd guess what you did it those scary moments. Silent_Runner did that with me for a while afterwards. Sure, you can always look back and find little details you might have done differently if you could do it again. But the big picture is that you both escaped harm. That's the most important thing. It's also nice that you both avoided firing a shot.
So while picking apart the incident to learn from it is fine the most important thing is that you did an excellent job of going home safely when your day was done.
Go forth, be strong and stay safe, my friend. :thumbsup:
sawgrass
10-18-2009, 08:30
I have been a firearm instructor for more than 40 years, and a Minnesota Carry Permit instructor since our law was passed (I am also Communications Director for CCRN, the group that passed the Minnesota law).
But I also was lucky enough to have spent many years as a young child in my grandfather's courtroom - he was a famous criminal court judge in Chicago. And the most important thing he taught me was this: "People always ask 'what does the law say?' Well, pay no attention to those 'experts' who tell you what is or is not self-defense. At the end of the day, 12 people who don't know you and weren't there will decide what the law means. Because out there in the courtroom is where the law actually happens."
Bottom line?
Do your best to avoid conflict situations in the first place. Most self-defense claims fail because the defendant simply shouldn't have said what they said, did what they did, or went where they went, BEFORE the actual threat occured.
Pay attention to that little "threat alarm" we all have - it can warn you before things get out of control.
Carry only an UTTERLY reliable gun - that means a revolver, or an auto-pistol with a reputation for reliability (yes, like a Glock) and even then only after YOU have put a minimum of several hundred rounds through it, including at least several dozen rounds of the EXACT ammo you carry for defense.
Carry discreetly but in a manner that allows SECURITY and ACCESSABILITY - sorry, purses (or briefcases) are not the best solution. You should also practice drawing at home while you are dressed exactly as you dress for that time of year - here in Minnesota, where the Winter temps can hit double digits below zero, it can be an especially illuminating exercise.
Carry auto-loading pistols with a round in the chamber - no exceptions. And, while "topping off" the magazine is in currently in vogue, I know of at least two situations where police officer's guns jammed after the first shot...in both cases precisely because they crammed in that last round. Note: single stack mags as in 1911's or Kahrs can be topped off without a much chance of a jam, but seriously, unless you plan on being in an extended gunfight (in which case you would be carrying a rifle or shotgun), if 10 rounds, or 15, or 17 isn't enough, one more round is not going to make the difference.
Finally, the single biggest mistake defendants make in the wake of a self-defense situation is: TALKING TO POLICE WITHOUT HAVING THEIR ATTORNEY PRESENT. Other than saying "that man tried to kill me (us)" the most important thing to do is SHUT YOUR MOUTH. Say nothing about what happened. Sign nothing. Answer ALL questions with "Officer, I'll be happy to cooperate as soon as my attorney is here." If you are read your Miranda rights, and the Officer asks, "Sir, did you understand the rights we have just read to you?" Answer, "No, I don't." If you are asked what parts did you not understand, respond "I don't understand anything - that's why I'm waiting for my attorney."
Other than that, we can only do the best we can - we will seldom have more than a few seconds to react, and all perceptions will be altered. The woman who started this thread did just that - she actually did rather well under the (very scary) circumstances. Should she have said something in the way of a warning ("leave me alone" or "stay away from me")? Perhaps. But then again, we're just Monday Morning Quarterbacking.
So, be smart, be aware and you will likely be safe...or at least safer.
John Caile
www.sditraining.net (http://www.sditraining.net)
Eden Prairie, MN
Good Post. Thanks for the reminder, DON'T TALK, until your attorney
arrives. This applies to the 911 call also. Get off the phone.
Nice to see you here J. Caile.
((Just noticed your response, drpdw. Nice of you to say. --Doug))
I read over your account of the event a few times and then read through this thread.
I'm not a police officer or a lawyer, but I am a husband who wants his wife to get home unharmed every time she goes out.
My take is that you did the right thing. Maybe not the PERFECT thing, but the right thing. People trying to tell you why you weren't perfect is probably said in good intentions, and certainly one can always improve training methods. The thing is, just as no battle plan survives contact with the enemy, anyone can use hindsight and pick apart why actions were less than perfect. Don't let that detract from the victory of getting home safe.
That said, I'm infinitely more confident in getting my 5'5 120 lb wife acquitted of a brandishing* charge than I am confident in her ability to physically handle two adult males (or really, two adult females, as two to one is never good odds in a physical confrontation) who attack her. Thats not saying I think she'd make it easy for them, but numbers and size do matter in a physical confrontation. Anyone telling you otherwise is selling something.
The first qualification of justifying the use of deadly force:
1) the attacker must have the ability to kill or cripple the defender either through the use of a deadly weapon or by commanding a uneven level of force, such as a very tall man attacking an elderly woman;
While I'm not actually sure what height really has to do with it, the general idea is sound. Sure these two guys may have meant no harm whatsoever. And you did them no harm, but still readied yourself to deal with a possible threat and moved to a safer location.
I'm going to agree that purse carry is probably the worst of all available options, and hope that you find a better carrying option that suits your needs. My wife gets a lot of mileage from her thunderwear, and a clip carry for her old Kel Tec P-11, and is evaluating my MTAC for use with a G26 or similiar.
However, what I would like to say and add more emphasis than everything else in this post is as follows:
Your instincts and situational awareness combined with a cool head were your real weapon that night. The G26 was simply a force multiplier of those internal attributes. No weapon you can carry around with you will make up for allowing yourself to be surprised when one or multiple assailants tackle you to the ground and have control of your limbs and possibly greater weight and strength.
*If indeed one was even made, which I perceive to be a low probability event.
GirlyGlock
11-01-2009, 06:15
Glad everything turn out well in this scenario!
There are a lot of great suggestions and advice in the post replies. I struggle with the best way to carry my Glock 26 (especially in the spring and summer). I prefer to carry on my person and am not comfortable with carrying in my purse (too much junk in my purse:embarassed:). My husband bought my an Uncle Mike's pocket holster (so it covers the trigger) so I can carry in my purse but I'm not comfortable with it yet. I prefer a belly band and a lose shirt or blouse.
KUDOS to you!
Your first impression is usually the correct one! We, in this culture, have been taught to give the "benefit of the doubt" when dealing with others. That is not a good thing in this sick and violent world.
Blitzer,
You are 100% on target there! Retrospectively, HAD I given these two guys the benefit of the doubt, engaged them in conversation (i.e., "What do you want?"), I may not be here right now posting this reply.
-PDW :whistling:
Girly Glock,
I have a Belly Band (which I wear over my hips since I'm small around the middle and am short waisted) and an Uncle Mike's #12 ITP holster (like you). It's still a challenge for me to cover my weapon with my regular business clothes, but I need to continue working on this.
-drpdw
Glad everything turn out well in this scenario!
There are a lot of great suggestions and advice in the post replies. I struggle with the best way to carry my Glock 26 (especially in the spring and summer). I prefer to carry on my person and am not comfortable with carrying in my purse (too much junk in my purse:embarassed:). My husband bought my an Uncle Mike's pocket holster (so it covers the trigger) so I can carry in my purse but I'm not comfortable with it yet. I prefer a belly band and a lose shirt or blouse.
Taykaim (http://glocktalk.com/forums/member.php?u=117436),
Thank you for you kind words RE: how this scenario played out that night as few months ago. The bottom line IS that I walked away from those guys, and they from me. :tongueout: It's interesting that one person replying to my original post, accused me of "brandishing" my weapon at these two guys; another suggested that I should have engaged these guys in a conversation to access their intentions; another told me to get more defensive training; several told me that the ONLY thing I did wrong was to NOT have "one in the chamber" to begin with; but many, like you, said, in essence, "good job," and suggested that I carry on my person and not in my purse. I"m working on the latter, BTW!
Tell your wife to STAY SAFE our there! I certainly will do everything in MY power to do the very same!
-drpdw
You know, even after all of these months,
I read over your account of the event a few times and then read through this thread.
I'm not a police officer or a lawyer, but I am a husband who wants his wife to get home unharmed every time she goes out.
My take is that you did the right thing. Maybe not the PERFECT thing, but the right thing. People trying to tell you why you weren't perfect is probably said in good intentions, and certainly one can always improve training methods. The thing is, just as no battle plan survives contact with the enemy, anyone can use hindsight and pick apart why actions were less than perfect. Don't let that detract from the victory of getting home safe.
That said, I'm infinitely more confident in getting my 5'5 120 lb wife acquitted of a brandishing* charge than I am confident in her ability to physically handle two adult males (or really, two adult females, as two to one is never good odds in a physical confrontation) who attack her. Thats not saying I think she'd make it easy for them, but numbers and size do matter in a physical confrontation. Anyone telling you otherwise is selling something.
The first qualification of justifying the use of deadly force:
1) the attacker must have the ability to kill or cripple the defender either through the use of a deadly weapon or by commanding a uneven level of force, such as a very tall man attacking an elderly woman;
While I'm not actually sure what height really has to do with it, the general idea is sound. Sure these two guys may have meant no harm whatsoever. And you did them no harm, but still readied yourself to deal with a possible threat and moved to a safer location.
I'm going to agree that purse carry is probably the worst of all available options, and hope that you find a better carrying option that suits your needs. My wife gets a lot of mileage from her thunderwear, and a clip carry for her old Kel Tec P-11, and is evaluating my MTAC for use with a G26 or similiar.
However, what I would like to say and add more emphasis than everything else in this post is as follows:
Your instincts and situational awareness combined with a cool head were your real weapon that night. The G26 was simply a force multiplier of those internal attributes. No weapon you can carry around with you will make up for allowing yourself to be surprised when one or multiple assailants tackle you to the ground and have control of your limbs and possibly greater weight and strength.
*If indeed one was even made, which I perceive to be a low probability event.
eleventyonegadgets.c
11-07-2009, 22:44
Glad I had my Glock 26 with me the other night. When I was exiting a retail establishment, into a dark parking lot, I noticed that there were two sets of very distinct footsteps behind me. I glanced back to see two men separate from each other and continue, at a slow pace, in my direction. I looked up to see that there was a truck parked next to my little black car; it was not there when I parked it a few minutes prior to this time. What to do? Draw out my weapon? Scream? Run? I remembered what I had learned from some tactical DVDs I had viewed some time back, and calmly turned around, with my hand on my Glock, in plain view of one of the men with whom I established eye contact. I continued walking back to the store, from where I had exited and waited while the workers were closing up the store. :wow:
Long story short, I felt that my Glock (with Crimson Trace laser grips) was there to protect me had I needed it...good feeling. The two men who I felt had been following me quickly met at the truck and drove off into the darkness. Were these two men a threat? I don't know. Was I over-reacting? I don't think so. I will never hesitate to carry, where it is allowed.
about 85 % of all encounters are in no light or low light conditions be sure to get a flashlight.
What a good reminder, Eleventyonegadgets!
I always carry a small white light with me at night...good idea to have one with one's weapon. I agree 100% with you!
-PDW
about 85 % of all encounters are in no light or low light conditions be sure to get a flashlight.
GlockGranny
11-13-2009, 05:56
Mythaeus,
My Glock 26 is my bedroom Alamo gun and I carry it, especially at night. It has Crimson Trace Grips on it. When I removed the Glock from my bag and turned around, the always-on laser was visible to these jerks when I put it my hand. I truly don't know what these guys were up to that night, but I thought it prudent to calmly show them that I was armed. My trigger finger, was just below the laser, and, I didn't have one in the chamber.
I am a woman of small stature and used to purse carry. Upon the concerns and advice of friends I have purchased a Raven IWB apendix carry fory Ruger LCP and now have a Phantom on order from Malabar Front. I suggest the Phantom Raven Holster, Malabar Front for the Glock. Their holsters are perfect for conceal carry, fantastic retention, easy quick draw. I realize our clothing won't allow always allow holster carry because sometimes we have to wear a dress.
http://www.themalabarfront.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=8&products_id=1575&osCsid=e84d0c3660650bd8c7852b3eb1992abe
Well you sure have heard from the "locked and loaded" crowd. But do keep in mind there is another school of thought - widely accepted - that feels your method of carry - unchambered (C3) - is superior for several reasons.
1. With not much practice your G26 can be drawn and racked in one smooth motion (the Israeli draw) just as fast as a chambered weapon, with one exception...
2. With an unchambered gun your chance of an accidental discharge is pretty much eliminated. Your method is much safer. We all handle our guns thousands of times a year administratively and it is comforting to know that by carrying unchambered (but with a full magazine) we are much much safer, and so are innocent people around us and in our presence.
I believe you handle this situation perfectly. The proof of the pudding is in the result: they left and you remained safe and alive. You had good street sense, got the bad vibes, and immediately trusted yourself and acted appropriately. The woulda - coulda - shoulda crowd should be ashamed of themselves.
Bravo to you!
Do know that unchambered carry has been used by millions of gun carriers worldwide and has been shown to be fast, effective and safe. With a bit of practice, most average shooters can learn to draw/rack and fire three shots in 1 to 1.5 seconds.
Evela,
Thanks for the good words...I greatly appreciate the fact that you, and the majority of others who have posted to this thread, are in agreement that I did what I truly felt had to be done to protect myself. Had these guys been GGs, they would not have run to their truck, but rather told me that they meant no harm or called 911; they ran.
To chamber or not to chamber? That is still another question which has rec'd mixed reactions from others.
-PDW
Round in chamber or not, practice often, take additional defense courses and practice more.
thnawk,
I agree with you 100% that's why I try to go to the range once a week (work permitting) and fire my G26 (CCW), Sig P239 and my Beretta 22LR (time permitting). One of the fellows (LEO) I regularly shoot with has me practicing with a one-hand draw-and-shoot with my personal carry weapon. How about you?
-drpdw
Round in chamber or not, practice often, take additional defense courses and practice more.
Lone_Wolfe
11-27-2009, 16:33
drpdw, it sounds like attacking you would be an effective way to commit suicide.
Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:
LW,
How nice to hear from you, Lone Wolfe! It's been a while. RE: my practice routine, I find my time at the range to be a wonderful opportunity to clear my mind of left hemisphere stuff. Runners talk about being in the zone, after a rigorous workout; I feel the same when I'm at the range, as I load my 3rd. or 4th. magazine.
Take care!
-drpdw:cool:
drpdw, it sounds like attacking you would be an effective way to commit suicide.
Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:
Hello, Patrice!
Yes, this particular thread that I initially posted (BTW, immediately following my harrowing experience), has taught me a lot, primarily about myself, and how I would react in a potentially life-threatening situation. The issue I narrated and others have read (more than 4,000 hits!) or responded to, is one of self-preservation and the responsibility that we all have to arm ourselves (pun intended here!) with the knowledge and practice to do so.
I can honestly say this, Patrice....I will continue to listen to my instincts having lived through this night, having had no harm done to my person, nor having done no harm to another. Human life is so precious. (I am still confident that these two men were bad actors; good guys would not have fled the scene.) If this thread can alert other women out there to constantly being alert in a similar situation, then, it is a good one.
Stay safe! :cool:
-drpdw
How nice to hear from you, Lone Wolfe! It's been a while. RE: my practice routine, I find my time at the range to be a wonderful opportunity to clear my mind of left hemisphere stuff. Runners talk about being in the zone, after a rigorous workout; I feel the same when I'm at the range, as I load my 3rd. or 4th. magazine.
Take care!
-drpdw:cool:
Wow, Doc! I see you're still getting excellent mileage out of this time-worn thread. I'm thinking that your well-written narrative of that night's events strikes a chord that resonates within everywoman, as well as a few others. With only a few self-sustaining threads like this one, the Women's subforum will perhaps become the most active place in all of Glock Talk. [Hhmmm...I note that you don't seem to be getting as much unsolicited advice; maybe some things do change, with time?]--Patrice[/quote]
I stumbled across this thread. Nothing to add, except to the OP and any other lady here, sometimes instincts account for 70% of the whole equation. At the very least, an enhanced sense of awareness places your body in a state where you are either ready to extricate or fight, but hopefully not freeze.
I think you did good, and you've done a great job of taking all the advice presented with aplomb and grace.
NYC Drew
NYC Drew,
I appreciate your affirmation! May you or others out there never have to be in a similar situation.
-dpdw
I stumbled across this thread. Nothing to add, except to the OP and any other lady here, sometimes instincts account for 70% of the whole equation. At the very least, an enhanced sense of awareness places your body in a state where you are either ready to extricate or fight, but hopefully not freeze.
I think you did good, and you've done a great job of taking all the advice presented with aplomb and grace.
NYC Drew
NYC Drew,
I appreciate your affirmation! May you or others out there never have to be in a similar situation.
-dpdw
dpdw,
I am from Jamaica, and have experienced more than my fair share x 5 worth of violence. I don't recall ever having the need to pull my gun, but I've come close, and it played out similar to how your encounter did - with my internal alarms going off the scales.
I have been caught in a few gunfights/crossfires/shootouts. Fortunately or unfortunately for me no one sent me a memo, so I was unarmed. If you peruse GT's carry issues or Tactics & Training (and I do encourage my GT ladies to prowl the rest of the site! :)) you may see one, or two of my posts on those matters.
Again, I think you did good.
'Drew
drpdw, i will not Monday morning quarterback how you handled things, you are alive and well. if you choose to carry with one in the pipe, just make sure you practice your draw so you can do it smoothly with your finger off the trigger until the finger needs to be on the trigger. if you chose to carry empty chamber, then practice drawing and racking the slide at the same time, from however/where ever you conceal at. and all of us can all use the practice. we all need to practice our draw :wavey:
Dear KHicks!
Great advice...drawing and sliding...just what I've been doing weekly, at the range. It is not easy but becoming more automatic each time. Upon the advice of my LEO lane colleague, he has me drawing and shooting one-handedly (with my non-dominant hand placed on my middle, out of the way)...at the end of my session. Good training for ALL of us out there!
-PDW
drpdw, i will not Monday morning quarterback how you handled things, you are alive and well. if you choose to carry with one in the pipe, just make sure you practice your draw so you can do it smoothly with your finger off the trigger until the finger needs to be on the trigger. if you chose to carry empty chamber, then practice drawing and racking the slide at the same time, from however/where ever you conceal at. and all of us can all use the practice. we all need to practice our draw :wavey:
Brown Hawk
12-14-2009, 11:48
Like NYCDrew, I stumbled on this thread, as I check for information for my daughter, who is even smaller than you.
I will give you some advice that came from my Advanced Concealed Carry class this year. Any time you put your hand on your gun, even if you never draw it, call 911 and inform them. Because the bad guy might be doing the same, which can cause you legal problems, and maybe your CCW.
This might not be so important for a small woman, it can still be a good thing to remember, especially in some cities where they don't like CCW.
You've already answered the posts on one in the tube, on body carry, and carrying an extra mag, so I won't go there.
One other thing I learned at that class, is that alteration of clothing is a MUST if you carry on body and not OWB. For me, it was a shortening of the shirt tails, so that when I pulled up the shirt, all of the shirt tail cleared the grip.
For you this might entail sewing velcro where buttons are so the buttons don't interfere with a quick grab and clear out of a belly band. Or a velcroed slit in the skirt or slacks for a quick grab and clear out of pouch carry. (Small pieces, not one long one.) Or a VERY short skirt. :whistling: Look at anything that might impede getting it out fast because next time, they might be a lot closer because of a full parking lot.
If you, or anyone else, think about not carrying one in the tube, try the following drill. When you start your draw, have someone start to scream in each ear. See how well you do racking the slide, as it is a small amount of stress compared to the huge amount that would come in a real situation. :supergrin:
You did good, and posting here helps others be more aware and prepared.
Hawk
If I was one of the two men I would of called the cops and hopefully they would have arrested you for assault (display of a weapon).
Lone_Wolfe
12-14-2009, 12:34
Like NYCDrew, I stumbled on this thread, as I check for information for my daughter, who is even smaller than you.
I will give you some advice that came from my Advanced Concealed Carry class this year. Any time you put your hand on your gun, even if you never draw it, call 911 and inform them. Because the bad guy might be doing the same, which can cause you legal problems, and maybe your CCW.
This might not be so important for a small woman, it can still be a good thing to remember, especially in some cities where they don't like CCW.
You've already answered the posts on one in the tube, on body carry, and carrying an extra mag, so I won't go there.
One other thing I learned at that class, is that alteration of clothing is a MUST if you carry on body and not OWB. For me, it was a shortening of the shirt tails, so that when I pulled up the shirt, all of the shirt tail cleared the grip.
For you this might entail sewing velcro where buttons are so the buttons don't interfere with a quick grab and clear out of a belly band. Or a velcroed slit in the skirt or slacks for a quick grab and clear out of pouch carry. (Small pieces, not one long one.) Or a VERY short skirt. :whistling: Look at anything that might impede getting it out fast because next time, they might be a lot closer because of a full parking lot.
If you, or anyone else, think about not carrying one in the tube, try the following drill. When you start your draw, have someone start to scream in each ear. See how well you do racking the slide, as it is a small amount of stress compared to the huge amount that would come in a real situation. :supergrin:
You did good, and posting here helps others be more aware and prepared.
Hawk
Hey Brown Hawk, check out Silent_Runner's thread in here, A Good Night to Have a Gun. She had a similar situation herself.
You did good, forget about all these armchair commandoes giving you advice what you should not have done regarding brandishing, display of a firearm, etc etc..
I was in a couple of incidents years ago, before cell phones, that I had to threaten bad guys with deadly force. In some cases they were on foot, they were not the kind to want ANY kind of interaction with policeand I figured calling the cops would be a waste of time. In other's I got a license plate and did call the police. A sex offender on probation followed my (now ex) wife home, and I ended up sticking a 357 up his ear and bashing his driver side window in. I did call the police and they picked him up 2 days later cruising my street, he was out on probation and not supposed to be more than 5 miles from his residence. Based on my wife's and my evidence, he went back to jail for a long time.
Do not EVER carry 10 round G19 magazines in the G26 (not that you would want to), they jammed my G26 like crazy. No issue with the 10/12 round G26 mags or the G19 15 round mags, but stupid 10 round G19's mags just did not work.
Brown Hawk
12-14-2009, 15:22
Hey Brown Hawk, check out Silent_Runner's thread in here, A Good Night to Have a Gun. She had a similar situation herself.
Good thread with a lot of good info.
I think that a good sticky in this forum, if you ladies will excuse my butting into you business, would be stories like yours, SR's and Miss Kittys. Put just the stories in that thread, then link to the actual threads so people can read the responses.
Stuff like this can show a lot of women that they can handle these situations if they have the awareness and that the ability to carry and use a gun can help with both the awareness and the confidence to handle the situation.
Too many women have been brainwashed to think that "He'll just take it away from me."
Start countering propaganda with facts and experience. And grouped for easy reading and reference.
Hawk
Excellent idea sir. You'd also make a great moderator for any forum here. (hint, hint). :)
'Drew
Lone_Wolfe
12-15-2009, 00:42
I had thought of that same idea. Maybe we need to talk to Mrs. VR or Miss Kitty about it.
DaveCharlie09
12-15-2009, 00:51
You shoulda' just wasted them for the heck of it.:rofl:
ETA: A gun is pointless if there is not a round in the chamber.
Lone_Wolfe
05-05-2010, 15:08
Let's :bump: this one back up.
leeward419
05-07-2010, 14:16
Hi, Great Job,
If I were you I would get some more class time re tactical situations, if you are going to carry, never carry empty chamber, and get a holster and put it and the gun on your body. Never give anyone any chance at getting it off you by stealing your purse etc. It needs to be attached to you. Great job at situational awareness. You did good.
Since that event, several months ago, I have logged many hours of additional tactical in-service hours and now carry, with one in the tube, on my person. Reflecting back on that evening, I truly have no regrets and feel that I handled it the best I could, given the fact that I had just started carrying and was able to leave the situation unscathed. I still say that those 2 men were BGs. BTW, Mr. Pinkus (via his tactical DVDs) and the LEO I log range time with almost every Tuesday a.m., have helped raise my level of awareness and skill considerably.
-drpdw
Glock Muscles :50cal::nsb::horsey::2gun:
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