So, I am banned from FrontSight! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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odesskiy
09-10-2009, 15:47
This is pretty funny. I attended FS two years ago and took a 4-day Defensive Handgun course. I was rather impressed by training but no so impressed by their marketing shpiel and their membership system. But more on that later.

I didn't really consider going back, but there is a 4-Day rifle class being put on at the end of this month and it's meant to benefit a good cause, so I figured I'd attend. I was looking forward to meeting and shooting with fellow Calgunners. More on this class:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=205793

So I printed out FS's application, filled it out and faxed it in. Here's the reply I got back:

Hi Ed,

Thank you for submitting an application to Front Sight to attend the training under the Basich Group Rifle class 09/25/2009

Unfortunately we are not able to provide you training at Front Sight at this time or in the future and we have canceled your enrollment into this course on 09/25/2009.

This cancelation and ban from attending training at Front Sight stems from your post on internet chat boards about Front Sight.

We have not charged your credit card for the criminal background check.

Thank you.

Jonathan Landwer
Executive Assistant

Front Sight Firearms Training Inst.
P.O. Box 2619
Aptos Ca. 95001

At first I wasn't even sure what he was talking about, so I e-mailed him back and then he made a reference that made me remember posting here on GT after initially attending their class.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10455584&postcount=10

I guess my e-mail address is similar enough to my handle.

Seriously, what kind of pathetic company instead of concentrating on running their business would scour the internet to find people that had less than stellar things to say about them? What's even funnier is that everything I predicted two years ago is coming to fruition. FS even briefly went into recievership not that long ago. The prices of memberships are down to almost nothing. The $200K Diamond Memberships they used to sell to suckered customers are now going for $5K. I talked to a gentleman that recently bought a Diamond Membership for $7K. Wanna guess what the extra $2K were for? A timeshare that would allow you to spend a week in one of the condo's that will be built on Front Sight's property. Are you friggin' kidding me? I remember hearing about that million-dollar septic system more than 2.5 years ago. As far as I know, everyone is still using porta-potties. This has all the makings of a pyramid scheme. They will keep dropping the prices until they can no longer attract new customers and then there will be no capital to pay the bills and then the doors will close for good.

Oh well, thank goodness there are still plenty of companies around that provide high-quality firearms training without any gimmicks, lies and scams.

David Armstrong
09-10-2009, 15:59
Seriously, what kind of pathetic company instead of concentrating on running their business would scour the internet to find people that had less than stellar things to say about them?
Don't know about "scouring the internet" but I'm aware of at least 1 other major training group that has banned (several) people from their classes based on comments on gun forums, and a couple of lower echelon folks that have done it.

cysoto
09-10-2009, 16:05
I must admit that is pretty darn funny!

Edited to add:
I just read the whole thread in which you posted (and consequently got you banned) and I just noticed that that I too have a post there... Does that mean I am banned too?!?!

odesskiy
09-10-2009, 16:13
LOL...will you be unable to sleep if you are?

I must admit that is pretty darn funny!

Edited to add:
I just read the whole thread in which you posted (and consequently got you banned) and I just noticed that that I too have a post there... Does that mean I am banned too?!?!

InBattery
09-10-2009, 16:15
That's pretty funny, in a sad kind of a way. I don't know as I'll ever actually take any advanced training of that nature (I'd like to, but finances, y'know), but, were I to ever seriously entertain the notion, I'm kind of thinking FS is not where I'd care to go, with that kind of attitude.

Oh damn, I'm probably banned now, too :upeyes:

odesskiy
09-10-2009, 16:15
That's just terrible business practice. Why not try to make your customers happy instead?

Don't know about "scouring the internet" but I'm aware of at least 1 other major training group that has banned (several) people from their classes based on comments on gun forums, and a couple of lower echelon folks that have done it.

cysoto
09-10-2009, 16:17
LOL...will you be unable to sleep if you are?
I don't know if I can continue to live! Life is worthless to me if I can't attend Front Sight and be indoctrinated by Dr. Piazza. :rofl:

Blitzer
09-10-2009, 16:19
What a tool or is that a fool Jonathan Landwer Executive Assistantis! Now I am banned too! :moonie:!

ASS HATS. Mouth breathing, cork soaking, motor frigging, inbred, moss eating trolls!

Blitzer
09-10-2009, 16:20
I don't know if I can continue to live! Life is worthless to me if I can't attend Front Sight and be indoctrinated by Dr. Piazza. :rofl:

Dr. Piece-o-crap! :steamed: :whistling:

David Armstrong
09-10-2009, 16:55
That's just terrible business practice. Why not try to make your customers happy instead?
I don't know, but one of the more popular trainers with many fans here has done it regularly, and the sycophants just keep flocking to him. I've always tried to pick trainers as much on their reputation as honest, stand-up folks as on the quality of the training. Others don't seem to feel that way.

jtull7
09-10-2009, 16:55
From your post, and from other posts I have read: Front Sight = Scientologists.

PEC-Memphis
09-10-2009, 17:03
I kinda wondered about this company when I saw the $500 Glock armorers course where you had to bring your own tools and firearm; and apparently you are not considered an armorer by the factory (for the purchase of parts or firearms). It doesn't seem like much of a bargain compared to the $150 factory course.

Or the $1000 rappelling course. We used to teach a rappelling course for free several years ago (we were taught by 30 year SF veteran). Yeah, you would probably get more from FS - but you should for a grand.

I can't say much about the actual classes. I know two or three people who have attended FS, and they seemed happy with the classes. – They seem to be a bit high on the price tag though.

======

After reading your link to "more on the class" - it seems that they rejected your donation to "Freedom Above Fortune Radio Show".

Deaf Smith
09-10-2009, 17:22
Strange. I've always felt criticism was beneficial. You learned from what they said and improved. If they could read the internet post complaining about their class then they could have responded to that post and offered to make good. Now that sells classes!

Guess they don't look at it that way.

Deaf

bobby_w
09-10-2009, 17:33
It is not what you posted.

It is where you posted. Here at Glock Talk.

We have history with FS.

And this thread will most likely get Closed.

ranburr1
09-10-2009, 17:35
This is what happens when ego gets in the way of common sense. Instead of banning you, the guy should have welcomed you with open arms. It is not often that you get a second chance with a disgruntled customer.

odesskiy
09-10-2009, 18:44
What's sad is that I really wasn't disgruntled. If you read my post from two years ago (linked in my original post), I had only good things to say about their training and I was actually looking to getting rifle training as well.

This is what happens when ego gets in the way of common sense. Instead of banning you, the guy should have welcomed you with open arms. It is not often that you get a second chance with a disgruntled customer.

odesskiy
09-10-2009, 18:45
Why should it get closed? :dunno:

It is not what you posted.

It is where you posted. Here at Glock Talk.

We have history with FS.

And this thread will most likely get Closed.

hokieglock
09-10-2009, 18:56
walmart sucks, walmart sucks, walmart sucks. banned baby!!! FS deserves to go out of business.

GlocksterPaulie
09-10-2009, 19:08
Don't lose any sleep over this BS with FS. I lived in Vegas for Eleven years and their are a lot of people that are not happy with them. I will be moving back to Vegas about a month from now and I hope I don't have to hear the FS BS when I get back.

Paulie:yawn:

K. Foster
09-10-2009, 19:26
Front Sight generates more soap opera drama than any other school in the country. If they had any interest in customer service, they would have handled this differently. In fact, I see no reason for them to “handle” this at all. You really didn’t say anything derogatory.
Even though they banned you, I notice they didn’t call you a liar!

odesskiy
09-10-2009, 19:30
LOL....kinda hard to call somebody a liar for telling the truth! :rofl:

Front Sight generates more soap opera drama than any other school in the country. If they had any interest in customer service, they would have handled this differently. In fact, I see no reason for them to ďhandleĒ this at all. You really didnít say anything derogatory.
Even though they banned you, I notice they didnít call you a liar!

PhoneCop
09-10-2009, 19:34
So what's the deal with the sales pitch?
Mandatory?
Do they ask me to leave if I suddenly have a bout of diarhea?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Texas357
09-10-2009, 20:02
It is not what you posted.

It is where you posted. Here at Glock Talk.

We have history with FS.

And this thread will most likely get Closed.

We have history with FS? That's good to know.

On another note, there are gun shops that I have not been particularly happy with, but most of them know that they can re-earn my business if they treat me well when I give them a second chance. Kicking me out because I had some criticism of past performance is a sure way to guarantee my opinion of them won't improve.

odesskiy
09-10-2009, 20:20
It is not mandatory at all. You are free to come and go as you choose. It happens during the lunch break but most people stay because you don't have enough time to drive to Pahrump to get food. The pitch is not high-pressure, there's no arm-twisting of any sort.

The problem I had was not with how they were selling, it's WHAT they were selling. I felt and still feel that the whole thing reeks of a Ponzi scheme. I'd be extremely pissed off if I bought a membership for $50,000 and two years later it'd be selling for 10% of that.

So what's the deal with the sales pitch?
Mandatory?
Do they ask me to leave if I suddenly have a bout of diarhea?
Inquiring minds want to know.

mercop
09-10-2009, 20:29
Wow, it will be so hard to find a legitimate trainer to take your money...whatever will you do:rofl:

odesskiy
09-10-2009, 22:07
Coming down to Vegas any time soon? ;)

Wow, it will be so hard to find a legitimate trainer to take your money...whatever will you do:rofl:

GlocksterPaulie
09-10-2009, 22:16
If mercop does not have anything scheduled for Vegas in the near future these guys are local.

http://www.pfctraining.com/

Paulie

odesskiy
09-10-2009, 23:51
Thanks for the tip!

If mercop does not have anything scheduled for Vegas in the near future these guys are local.

http://www.pfctraining.com/

Paulie

zx2loon
09-11-2009, 02:16
I was steered away from FS by a local LEO who had attended a tatical pistol course a year or so after it opened. He said the trainning was great for beginners but for experianced gunners, it was a refresher course at best. He did mention that the people and trainners did a great job with the course and for those that needed "a little extra help", additional one-on-one time was given. He said the over all price bit him in the butt in the end and those who needed to use the on-site armorer paid dearly for replacement parts.

For the record, there are "certified" trainers everywhere now. It never hurts to take more than one type of class from different teachers. One might have a more sensible approach to a tatic vs. another.

I've taken a few different pistol courses in my years, most local gunshop classes and some private. I feel that every bit of information I've gathered over the years I have put to use in my own way that feels natural and comfortable. There is never one way to defend ones life and there isn't one way to teach the art of defense either....:cool:

AA#5
09-11-2009, 02:57
Wow! People that run FS are brain dead.

Aw, shucks, now I can't attend FS.

chuckman
09-11-2009, 05:48
Ban me, FS. Please. It is a PR machine whose mission is to secure $$$, but only at the promotion of its name. Kinda like Mary Kay and Amway. They are into the 'club' mentality. Great thing about private enterprise and competition...there are better, and cheaper, schools and instructors out there.

Currahee
09-11-2009, 06:05
At our family business if a customer complains we look at it as an opportunity to make them happy and build a relationship. I don't understand why any business would do otherwise. The only reason we have "fired" customers is when they are repeatedly abusive towards employees - and this has only happened a handful of times over many years.

I am moving to VA so I am thinking of going down to Blackwater's training center sometime next year. I've heard good things and their facility looks awesome.

chuckman
09-11-2009, 06:59
I am moving to VA so I am thinking of going down to Blackwater's training center sometime next year. I've heard good things and their facility looks awesome.

Blackwater. Larry Vickers. TigerSwan. Viking Tactics. Tier 1 Group. All in NC. In Va, try Special Tactical Services, Rogers Shooting Academy, FPF Training, International Training, Inc. So many choices, so little money...

odesskiy
09-11-2009, 08:07
Well said.

Ban me, FS. Please. It is a PR machine whose mission is to secure $$$, but only at the promotion of its name. Kinda like Mary Kay and Amway. They are into the 'club' mentality. Great thing about private enterprise and competition...there are better, and cheaper, schools and instructors out there.

Blunt object
09-11-2009, 22:41
Let's see:
You got what you admitted was a good four day class for $80, then said the guy who built the business is running a ponzi scheme and would soon fold.
You advise people to avoid buying from him.

A year and a half later you're heading out to get another low cost class provided as a benefit of someone else's membership.

(Opportunistic little fellow, aren't you. ;) )

Naishter says no, probably suspecting that you might take the training but spend the breaks explaining your wildly original "Ponzi scheme" theory.
(God knows why he'd expect that)

You see this as a poor business decision?

Assuming the purpose of the cheapy class is to get new folks to buy more courses?

Should he have expected that if you just heard the sales pitch again you'd join up and then give us an enthusiastic review of your new mongolium membership? :)

odesskiy
09-12-2009, 08:05
You know, I've heard of selective hearing before, I guess in your case it's "selective vision" or is it "selective comprehension"?

My desire to come back had nothing to do with being opportunistic. If you read carefully, I stated that I had no plans to come back and I didn't for 2.5 years. My desire to come back had to do with benefiting a good cause and meeting a few online friends. It wasn't going to be "cheap" as I was going to donate $300 to the cause. Please don't start telling me that this class is a "$2000 value", being in a class with forty people and one instructor plus two rangemasters and their "patented" blind-leading-the-blind system is not something anyone in their right mind would spend $2000 on.


I did not advise people anything other than making up their mind knowing all the facts. I simply stated my opinions (which obviously are quite accurate given the current state of FS and their tumultuous history of litigation, going into receivership, etc.

Even knowing all of the above, I still haven't campaigned against the FS and haven't expressed any negative opinions in the past 2.5 years other than my initial post about my experiences there. You don't see me outside of their front gates with signs like "FrontSight Sucks!" and "Naish is a scammer!" I've talked to plenty of members who feel they are getting a good value and I never tried to rain on their parade. To each their own. What makes you think that I would start some sort of anti-FS lunchtime crusade? Au contrair, believe it or not, during the past couple of years there were two or three times when I seriously considered buying a second-hand membership when I came across people trying to off-load them for cheap. Just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger and buy into the system. With business practices that they demonstrated, I'm glad I didn't.




Let's see:
You got what you admitted was a good four day class for $80, then said the guy who built the business is running a ponzi scheme and would soon fold.
You advise people to avoid buying from him.

A year and a half later you're heading out to get another low cost class provided as a benefit of someone else's membership.

(Opportunistic little fellow, aren't you. ;) )

Naishter says no, probably suspecting that you might take the training but spend the breaks explaining your wildly original "Ponzi scheme" theory.
(God knows why he'd expect that)

You see this as a poor business decision?

Assuming the purpose of the cheapy class is to get new folks to buy more courses?

Should he have expected that if you just heard the sales pitch again you'd join up and then give us an enthusiastic review of your new mongolium membership? :)

Gallium
09-12-2009, 09:07
Odesskiy,

You've said your piece. Front Sight is not going to officially show up here, and view the exact reasons why your presence there is not welcomed, so we only get one perspective of the whole picture.

Furthermore, the owner of this site does not like the whole "drag-garbage-from-other-places-here-on-the-front-porch" kind of deal, even if the mess was triggered by something you said here (actually even worse).

A decent shooting course from any school is worth $150 a day. If you were headed back, is was because the school was offering something you desired. A 4 day school would therefore be worth from the low end, $600...probably as much as $800. Blunt Object did not say the course was worth $2000 (well if he did, I missed it in the post you quoted).

My suggestion is, you exit gracefully from your own thread and find other (positive) things to fill your life with. When you have trained enough, you realize just how small and interconnected the training community is. It is in poor taste to publish emails folks send to you (paraphrasing is not so bad). Chances are, you would never need any of the services I provide, and chances are your gun handling skills already far supersede anything I teach (Basic NRA stuff)...but there are certain to be others like me who cringe at you posting the email out here in the wild.

I'm not saying the sender of the email is sane (or crazy), or acted like a perfect gentleman...just saying that your demonstrated behavior here is telling on the type of person you are.

Good luck in your endeavors.

'Drew
:cool:

Patchman
09-12-2009, 09:19
After reading your post, the ban seems sorta excessive. I could see if you dissed them on their level of expertise, or training or safety practices or other technical stuff. Oh well.

The Bronx Bull
09-12-2009, 12:23
Deleted

Patchman
09-12-2009, 12:39
You've said your piece. Front Sight is not going to officially show up here, and view the exact reasons why your presence there is not welcomed, so we only get one perspective of the whole picture.

A very insightful point. I guess you can apply the same reasoning to explain people posting Look-How-The-Cops-Violated-Me stories. The know the agency in questions will not respond officially, so readers only get a one sided perspective of the whole picture.

Ah, if only law enforcement can also start a "Do Not Call 9-1-1" list. :supergrin:

Gallium
09-12-2009, 12:41
What a bunch of crap. He is entitled to his opinion and this is a forum where he can express it without your consent, my consent, or whoever the hell is running the damn courses' consent. I don't know *jack* about this company Front Sight, but I do know that people like you are the reason why businesses will continue to be dishonest and will always cover for one another. He made a fair and valid critique of the company, exposing their ridiculous 'forum-watchdog' methods (too much time on their hands?).

My suggestion, Drew, is that if you want to add to the discussion, then post up something in defense of Front Sight without ever telling someone to 'gracefully exit and not ever speak a word of criticism about this company again because the wrong person might see it.' Grow a backbone for Christ sake.


Sir, (or ma'am),

The core of my response is centered around what Eric Powell - the owner and primary administrator of Glocktalk.com has expressed specifically as it pertains to FrontSight. Clearly, and obviously, you were not here when lawsuits were threatened.

Everything you have said about me borders on insulting - stuff you could not possibly say to my face, without me telling you something(s) equally insulting.
Again, Eric does not want forum members to insult other forum members here, and I abide by his wishes. Your problem is, the separation and isolation of your keyboard give you an overly false sense of bravado. I am certain you do not know me, otherwise you would not speak this way of me, to me. If you ask anyone that has ever conducted a business transaction with me, overwhelmingly, they will tell you I am a honorable person.

Please don't misconstrue my calm response to your question as an indication that I am lacking in testicles, or intestinal fortitude. I've been on Glocktalk for a bunch of years, and intend to remain here as long as the moderators and administrators will have me.


Best regards, and I hope we meet sometime soon,
'Drew
:cool:

Patchman
09-12-2009, 12:44
IIRC from my training classes, don't most instructors, at the beginning of the courses, tell us, the students, that they have no ego invested in any of the techniques, tactics, etc... they are about to teach?

OK, the OP did complement the quality of the training, so maybe this is not closely relevant. But certainly someone's ego was bruised. :)

The Bronx Bull
09-12-2009, 12:53
Deleted

Patchman
09-12-2009, 13:02
NYC Drew, with all respect, I think your response made readers only more curious. Well, it made me more curious about the underplaying of the OP and your post. I admit that I know nothing about this lawsuit you referred to, and I don't know any of the parties background and history to fully understand or fully appreciate the present posts. But I was surprised by your quick and sharp responses. Almost like it's personal for you.

Jeez, so are you and the Bronx Bull gonna rumble in the school yard tomorrow? Fists, bricks, sticks, chains, knives, or guns?

Gallium
09-12-2009, 13:02
You know, you probably are. Hell I bet if we met in the world we'd be good friends.

1. :cheers:


But the man was making constructive criticisms of a company, which were completely and utterly valid. Unless you're an admin with post-removal privileges, why chastise him for doing so?


2. I did not chastise him for making this thread. What I did was to remind him that Eric and the founder(s) of FrontSight have gone the full 12 rounds in the past, and that (IIRC) there is still some tension and bad blood between them. This is clearly underscored by the fact the folks over there are aware of what is posted on GT.

What I DID castigate him for, was posting the email. I find that in poor taste. That is my opinion, which I am (as you are entitled to yours) entitled to freely express here, so long as I am not violating the terms of service.


I do not know anything about the lawsuits.

3. It may be a completely separate outfit (some other school) but I do distinctly remember the owners of that place making a big fuss about some stuff here - but it has been a few years. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's some other place. Either way, I was (only, simply) reminding the OP that the owner does not like when we bring trash from other places here.

Best regards,
'Drew


1.

Gallium
09-12-2009, 13:07
NYC Drew, with all respect, I think your response made readers only more curious. Well, it made me more curious about the underplaying of the OP and your post. I admit that I know nothing about this lawsuit you referred to, and I don't know any of the parties background and history to fully understand or fully appreciate the present posts. But I was surprised by your quick and sharp responses. Almost like it's personal for you.

I have never been to FrontSight, and I have no intention of going there, and I don't recall training with any trainers/students who have been there. My response is neither quick, nor sharp. :) I was in my basement cleaning guns for the past 3-4hrs, took a break, logged onto GT, clicked on "my replies" and here we are... :cool:


Jeez, so are you and the Bronx Bull gonna rumble in the school yard tomorrow? Fists, bricks, sticks, chains, knives, or guns?

That should not be necessary. However, I readily admit I take great umbrage at folks who would seek to impugn my character and/or reputation without ever having engaged in dialogue or business with me. I only take un-returned insults from close friends and my mother. Everybody else gets some back. :cool:


Please see my above post about the lawsuit stuff. Boy, I'm gonna feel really stupid in the morning if it turns out the place in question was Pizza Hut instead of this other guy whose name sounds like pizza! :)

'Drew

thegriz18
09-12-2009, 15:10
Wow, that is lame. Any business should be able to accept criticism and make improvements. That is typical firearms elitist mentality. Screw that. I got their e-mail news letter for about two weeks until I realized that it was total B.S. I'll go somewhere else.

ETA: I probably just got banned. :supergrin:

odesskiy
09-12-2009, 19:33
Sir,

You claim that you abide by Eric's wishes not to insult other members, yet I find your questioning of my integrity and character extremely insulting. I posted the e-mail simply to demonstrate the way in which I was banned and the reason for it. There was absolutely nothing of personal or private nature in that e-mail and it lacked any sort of "private communication"disclaimer. It seemed like a boilerplate response and thus I felt that I did not violate anyone's privacy by posting it. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but saying that me posting that e-mail "shows what kind of person I am", implying that I was somehow dishonest was over the line. I stated my honest opinions about the company (once again, saying nothing bad about FS's training or instructors), a sentiment shared by many former students and members of FS. I was not aware of any prohibition of sharing negative opinions about FS on Glocktalk. If a moderator chooses to contact me and ask me to refrain from further postings about FS, I will certainly oblidge, however since you are not part of GT's management, it is not your place to chastize me like you did.

Sir, (or ma'am),

The core of my response is centered around what Eric Powell - the owner and primary administrator of Glocktalk.com has expressed specifically as it pertains to FrontSight. Clearly, and obviously, you were not here when lawsuits were threatened.

Everything you have said about me borders on insulting - stuff you could not possibly say to my face, without me telling you something(s) equally insulting.
Again, Eric does not want forum members to insult other forum members here, and I abide by his wishes. Your problem is, the separation and isolation of your keyboard give you an overly false sense of bravado. I am certain you do not know me, otherwise you would not speak this way of me, to me. If you ask anyone that has ever conducted a business transaction with me, overwhelmingly, they will tell you I am a honorable person.

Please don't misconstrue my calm response to your question as an indication that I am lacking in testicles, or intestinal fortitude. I've been on Glocktalk for a bunch of years, and intend to remain here as long as the moderators and administrators will have me.


Best regards, and I hope we meet sometime soon,
'Drew
:cool:

Gallium
09-12-2009, 20:55
Sir,

You claim that you abide by Eric's wishes not to insult other members...it is not your place to chastize me like you did.

You are missing the forest for the trees. At no point did I chastise you for speaking your mind about Front Sight.

All I did, is what you did - to produce my opinion. I do not think highly of people who publish personal, private communication for the world to see, no matter what the content of that communique might be.

As you are entitled to post your opinions and criticisms, so I am mine. If it suits you, please re-read my initial response in this thread, and if you can demonstrate where I have insulted you, I will apologize.

Regards,
'Drew

Tactical black
09-12-2009, 22:18
I am sorry to hear about the trouble but I'm curious how could they track you from your post from doing a background check? just wondering

Blunt object
09-13-2009, 00:47
how could they track you from your post from doing a background check?
Probably not that.
Given FS' internet marketing operation, I imagine they'd follow the major gun boards for FS threads.

Not to mention nearly a hundred instructors and several thousand First Family members.
Think any of them are gun enthusiasts who read the boards?

odesskiy
09-13-2009, 02:03
Please re-read my previous post. I already stated what I found insulting, you referring to "the kind of person I am", you didn't simply state that you disagree with posting "private" e-mail on the internet. So once again, I find questioning of my integrity insulting.

By your own admission you know nothing about Front Sight, which is why you didn't get the $2000 reference, and yet you felt the need to come up with some sort of a breakdown of what a class "should cost". So, you knew nothing of the subject in question, yet you chose to insert yourself into the discussion and question my character over posting of an e-mail. I think I am far from being the only person that would find your behavior insulting.

You are missing the forest for the trees. At no point did I chastise you for speaking your mind about Front Sight.

All I did, is what you did - to produce my opinion. I do not think highly of people who publish personal, private communication for the world to see, no matter what the content of that communique might be.

As you are entitled to post your opinions and criticisms, so I am mine. If it suits you, please re-read my initial response in this thread, and if you can demonstrate where I have insulted you, I will apologize.

Regards,
'Drew

odesskiy
09-13-2009, 02:11
My e-mail is pretty close to my handle (odessit,odesskiy). They knew I was a returning student (obviously), there was a timeline reference in my initial post, in which I also mentioned that I received a "Distinguished Graduate" certificate for the class. I'm sure it wasn't that hard to figure out.

Another thing I didn't mention. Since I didn't even remember my post from 2.5 years ago, I e-mail Jon back asking him what posting he was talking about. He wrote back asking me if I knew Scott from LAPD. A little surprised by the question, I nevertheless truthfully answered that I was indeed acquainted with that person. When I found my old post, I saw that I made a reference to "Scott, ex-LAPD firearms instructor". After I sent my reply, I received no further communication whatsoever, from that point on I was ignored. Doesn't seem like a very professional behavior to me...

I am sorry to hear about the trouble but I'm curious how could they track you from your post from doing a background check? just wondering

Gallium
09-13-2009, 05:38
Please re-read my previous post. I already stated what I found insulting, you referring to "the kind of person I am", you didn't simply state that you disagree with posting "private" e-mail on the internet. So once again, I find questioning of my integrity insulting.

By your own admission you know nothing about Front Sight, which is why you didn't get the $2000 reference, and yet you felt the need to come up with some sort of a breakdown of what a class "should cost". So, you knew nothing of the subject in question, yet you chose to insert yourself into the discussion and question my character over posting of an e-mail. I think I am far from being the only person that would find your behavior insulting.

Contrary to what you write, I did not say I know "nothing" of front site, what I said was : I have never been to FrontSight, and I have no intention of going there, and I don't recall training with any trainers/students who have been there.

This does not preclude me from being aware of who they are, what they do, the services they offer, the type and nature of their classes, their curriculum, the sales pitches, the owner, their methodology, etc. The only thing I established, was, I have no association (past or present) with them, or any vetted interest of any sort which would cause me to rise to their defense. :)

I've had far worse private correspondence from business associates, and even people from this forum (clearly, with whom there is a "business" relationship), and never had I felt a compelling need to publish that private and direct communication here - except where it was a lark between buddies. Therefore, I will continue to maintain what my previously formed opinion of you is. It is only an opinion, out of many, which I arrived at based on the information available in this thread, and your previously referenced thread. Your life has not magically changed, you do not know me, nor I you.

The facts in my original post still stand.



Front Sight will not be here to present things from their perspective.
Glocktalk <>Front Sight = bad history
Typical shooting school = $150 a day. You were headed back there, so it had some value to you.
You raise the $2k value (in response to Blunt Object's post) and question the value of that for their training
I suggest you let it drop, as the training world is very interconnected
Personally, you are not the type of person I would wish to conduct business with, and it appears, by extension, your training needs far exceed what I have to offer (looks like a win for both of us!)
I close by acknowledging the FS did not act properly, and that your posting is telling on the type of person you are.


You've said you piece, I have said mine, and now I will leave you and your thread. No apology will be forthcoming from me sir.

Respectfully,
'Drew
:cool:

K. Foster
09-13-2009, 06:54
I think there is something ethically wrong with a company that has one student paying $200 for a class, while the student next to him is paying $2000, (ten times more) because he didn’t do enough research to understand the ‘cert’ program. An ethical businessman would have 1 price for everyone. Occasionally, some schools may offer LE discounts or discounts for returning customers but no other school in the country has the price fluctuations front sight does.

odesskiy
09-13-2009, 09:12
No further arguing needed.

Apparently, the "type of person I am" is plenty fine with all of my friends, business associates, and friends in the gun and training communities.

Your baseless assault on the "type of person I am" is also quite indicative of the "type of person you are".

No apology would be accepted from you, sir.

Contrary to what you write, I did not say I know "nothing" of front site, what I said was : I have never been to FrontSight, and I have no intention of going there, and I don't recall training with any trainers/students who have been there.

This does not preclude me from being aware of who they are, what they do, the services they offer, the type and nature of their classes, their curriculum, the sales pitches, the owner, their methodology, etc. The only thing I established, was, I have no association (past or present) with them, or any vetted interest of any sort which would cause me to rise to their defense. :)

I've had far worse private correspondence from business associates, and even people from this forum (clearly, with whom there is a "business" relationship), and never had I felt a compelling need to publish that private and direct communication here - except where it was a lark between buddies. Therefore, I will continue to maintain what my previously formed opinion of you is. It is only an opinion, out of many, which I arrived at based on the information available in this thread, and your previously referenced thread. Your life has not magically changed, you do not know me, nor I you.

The facts in my original post still stand.



Front Sight will not be here to present things from their perspective.
Glocktalk <>Front Sight = bad history
Typical shooting school = $150 a day. You were headed back there, so it had some value to you.
You raise the $2k value (in response to Blunt Object's post) and question the value of that for their training
I suggest you let it drop, as the training world is very interconnected
Personally, you are not the type of person I would wish to conduct business with, and it appears, by extension, your training needs far exceed what I have to offer (looks like a win for both of us!)
I close by acknowledging the FS did not act properly, and that your posting is telling on the type of person you are.


You've said you piece, I have said mine, and now I will leave you and your thread. No apology will be forthcoming from me sir.

Respectfully,
'Drew
:cool:

deadday
09-13-2009, 10:30
:popcorn:

Blunt object
09-13-2009, 13:03
An ethical businessman would have 1 price for everyone.
checking the Sunday paper I see coupons galore, ranging from 10% to 50% savings. Will they charge you full price if you don't have a coupon?

Radio ads say "mention us to get a discount at local businesses". Think you'll get the discount without mentioning the sponsor?

Will an auto dealer sell you a car at full sticker price if you aren't aware you can negotiate?

Common practices.


Does it cause ill will from those who pay list?
Yup.

4TS&W
09-13-2009, 14:11
Wow, if you were banned before starting this thread.... you are *MEGABANNED* now! lol :)

odesskiy
09-13-2009, 17:04
:rofl: :rofl:

Wow, if you were banned before starting this thread.... you are *MEGABANNED* now! lol :)

TEX
09-14-2009, 00:03
Could some of you who know schools that banned customers because of comments they made please post the names of the schools or instructors. I would be very interested and would prefer do do business with instructors or schools that conduct themselves in a more adult and business like manner. I have a very hard time imagining S&W Academy, Sig Academy or Gunsight doing something like this.

This is an interesting post. You said nothing bad about the training, just the flakey membeship scheme - which it turns out was excatly that. Sometimes people react stronger to someone telling the truth about them, than a lie about them - funny quirk.

I tried several times to take a course at Front Site, but the piggy bank kept getting emptied by one or another emergency. I have wriiten several post over the years on several boards about training I have received. I have always tried to be fair and there are two things I have always noticed; one is that I don't always agree with all the methods or advice they give, and two, I have never failed to gain something from every class I have taken. I think you have to treat training like a tour through a hardware store. You try out the tools and see which one you think will work for you and then put them in you tool bag. I do think that whatever you are being taught you should try it their way while training. Some things that look goofy or don't make sense at first can prove to be quite effective.

AA#5
01-25-2010, 00:38
Sir,

You claim that you abide by Eric's wishes not to insult other members, yet I find your questioning of my integrity and character extremely insulting. I posted the e-mail simply to demonstrate the way in which I was banned and the reason for it. There was absolutely nothing of personal or private nature in that e-mail and it lacked any sort of "private communication"disclaimer. It seemed like a boilerplate response and thus I felt that I did not violate anyone's privacy by posting it. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but saying that me posting that e-mail "shows what kind of person I am", implying that I was somehow dishonest was over the line. I stated my honest opinions about the company (once again, saying nothing bad about FS's training or instructors), a sentiment shared by many former students and members of FS. I was not aware of any prohibition of sharing negative opinions about FS on Glocktalk. If a moderator chooses to contact me and ask me to refrain from further postings about FS, I will certainly oblidge, however since you are not part of GT's management, it is not your place to chastize me like you did.

Well said, odesskiy.

Mamaluke
01-25-2010, 14:32
This is pretty funny. I attended FS two years ago and took a 4-day Defensive Handgun course. I was rather impressed by training but no so impressed by their marketing shpiel and their membership system. But more on that later.

I didn't really consider going back, but there is a 4-Day rifle class being put on at the end of this month and it's meant to benefit a good cause, so I figured I'd attend. I was looking forward to meeting and shooting with fellow Calgunners. More on this class:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=205793

So I printed out FS's application, filled it out and faxed it in. Here's the reply I got back:



At first I wasn't even sure what he was talking about, so I e-mailed him back and then he made a reference that made me remember posting here on GT after initially attending their class.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10455584&postcount=10

I guess my e-mail address is similar enough to my handle.

Seriously, what kind of pathetic company instead of concentrating on running their business would scour the internet to find people that had less than stellar things to say about them? What's even funnier is that everything I predicted two years ago is coming to fruition. FS even briefly went into recievership not that long ago. The prices of memberships are down to almost nothing. The $200K Diamond Memberships they used to sell to suckered customers are now going for $5K. I talked to a gentleman that recently bought a Diamond Membership for $7K. Wanna guess what the extra $2K were for? A timeshare that would allow you to spend a week in one of the condo's that will be built on Front Sight's property. Are you friggin' kidding me? I remember hearing about that million-dollar septic system more than 2.5 years ago. As far as I know, everyone is still using porta-potties. This has all the makings of a pyramid scheme. They will keep dropping the prices until they can no longer attract new customers and then there will be no capital to pay the bills and then the doors will close for good.

Oh well, thank goodness there are still plenty of companies around that provide high-quality firearms training without any gimmicks, lies and scams.

Give American Defense Enterprises (Los Angeles based) a shot. PM me for info.

DeanG
01-25-2010, 23:03
you and your right on appraisal of their membership "deals", a highly questionable ploy that was revealed many years ago for which FS was finally sued by their own "First Family" members over and in which the FS management lost the case. But for some unknown reason there are still people willing to dink the cool-aid and spend their hard earned money there instead of going to much more deserving and non-alturnatively motivated qualified schools, many of which can be found much closer to home no matter where your home is.

But know you are not alone, there have been a large number of people over the years banned from there for speaking the truth and warning others of the peril and dangers that await them, remember don't ride the rope line! Besides you were just banned, many of us still receive death threads and other threatening calls, our wives called and told we are having affairs, etc, visits to our homes and offices from them and their fellow "church" or should I more rightfully say members of their "cult of greed, power and evil" as labled by a noted and well respected investigative source, on a regular basis.

Best of luck to you and yours! FYI, Gunsite and Thunder Ranch offer great rifle classes without any of the questionable tactics or drama, and I don't mean rifle tactics either, as do many other fine training schools around the country. Seek the good ones out and support them as often as you can.

And watch six, they ARE trolling the internet looking to "surpress" those who won't cave in to their nazi/mafia/orgainized crime like tactics.

steveksux
01-31-2010, 10:58
For a moment there I thought we'd have to move the thread to Internet Debating Tactics and Training. Glad to see everyone got the makeup sex over with and moved on... :tongueout::rofl:

Randy

krush777
01-31-2010, 15:32
many of us still receive death threads and other threatening calls, our wives called and told we are having affairs, etc, visits to our homes and offices from them and their fellow "church" or should I more rightfully say members of their "cult of greed, power and evil" as labled by a noted and well respected investigative source, on a regular basis.
.

:wow: Unbelievable! I would never have thought that something like this would or could ever happen.

K. Foster
01-31-2010, 16:59
many of us still receive death threads and other threatening calls, our wives called and told we are having affairs, etc, visits to our homes and offices from them and their fellow "church" or should I more rightfully say members of their "cult of greed, power and evil" as labled by a noted and well respected investigative source, on a regular basis.

Is that tongue-in-cheek humor or are you serious? If youíre serious, how do you know itís related to FS?
Iím not calling you a liar, Iím just asking a question. Since you brought it up.

David Armstrong
02-01-2010, 11:58
:wow: Unbelievable! I would never have thought that something like this would or could ever happen.
Haven't had anything from FS, but yes, some ethically questionable trainers (ETA: and supporters) have done things like call employers, spouses, issue assorted threats of violence, etc. as the result of someone posting factually accurate information about them. So yes, it can and does happen.

Bobshouse
02-01-2010, 14:17
Isn't this the company that was trying to make a quick buck over a video of an officer being gunned down during a traffic stop? Truely tasteless.

Sad to see a company so full of themselves they can afford to turn away or ban business. They will soon learn thats the quickest way to rock bottom.

Hopefully they will realize that their failure to take 1 dollar offered will lead to them losing thousands of dollars over time.

Mayhem like Me
02-03-2010, 15:33
Yes it is see my signature line...

snappydad
02-04-2010, 20:46
Isn't this the company that was trying to make a quick buck over a video of an officer being gunned down during a traffic stop? Truely tasteless.


Yes it is. :steamed: FS are asshats that might as well be advertising on the QVC Channel. The OP should thank them for helping him spend his money on real training. :wavey:

MacG22
02-10-2010, 14:59
I can say as a businessman, dispassionately, that FS email to you and their policy of "banning" people from their training who disagree with some of their practices is in bad taste. Most of these training centers are personality driven and these sorts of disputes are not uncommon. But they are bad business.

It appears the "right to bear arms" is worth protecting to them, but the "right to free speech" is held in contempt.

I do participate in training courses from time to time, and in general with a group of friends. We spend quite a bit of money. FS was one place we were considering in the coming year. Until I see these policies addressed by them, we will be happy to send out money to other training centers.

DeanG
02-20-2010, 01:48
uses that policy and why and to whom that policy was intended to "surpress", for they must surpress those that expose them or are at the very least are critical of their "cause", which is really to releive you of as much money as they can as fast as they can. Typical cult tactics well documented in their guide books that I've personally seen. Oh and I do know Iggy's own voice quite well and the police taps/traces on our phones lines have documented many many times the calls from their offices, the cult offices, or known cult or "first family" members numbers. This is nothing new for them, standard "tactics" really that as has been documented in thousands of cases over the years, here and abroad. That's why that cult has long been banned or their members can't hold any offices of public trust in so very many countires around the world. To bad the US is so slow to follow the others lead in this.

And no, I don't find anything humorous about having my life or that of my family threatened by anyone, let alone some well armed cult members that have been trained and train and that well known desert spot. But I'll continue to talk about it so that should anything ever happen to me or mine, all will know where and to whom to look first!



Is that tongue-in-cheek humor or are you serious? If youíre serious, how do you know itís related to FS?
Iím not calling you a liar, Iím just asking a question. Since you brought it up.

Ironbar
02-22-2010, 10:20
I suggest everyone read the following. It appears that there are indeed links between Front Sight and Scientology. I wouldn't be surprised of their whole outfit was just an extension of Scientology which as well all know is a vicious cult group:

http://www.raids.org/fsite1.htm

eb07
02-22-2010, 10:24
In this economy if they want to turn down paying customers... let them. Poor business practices.

RDW
02-22-2010, 13:50
you and your right on appraisal of their membership "deals", a highly questionable ploy that was revealed many years ago for which FS was finally sued by their own "First Family" members over and in which the FS management lost the case. But for some unknown reason there are still people willing to dink the cool-aid and spend their hard earned money there instead of going to much more deserving and non-alturnatively motivated qualified schools, many of which can be found much closer to home no matter where your home is.

But know you are not alone, there have been a large number of people over the years banned from there for speaking the truth and warning others of the peril and dangers that await them, remember don't ride the rope line! Besides you were just banned, many of us still receive death threads and other threatening calls, our wives called and told we are having affairs, etc, visits to our homes and offices from them and their fellow "church" or should I more rightfully say members of their "cult of greed, power and evil" as labled by a noted and well respected investigative source, on a regular basis.

Best of luck to you and yours! FYI, Gunsite and Thunder Ranch offer great rifle classes without any of the questionable tactics or drama, and I don't mean rifle tactics either, as do many other fine training schools around the country. Seek the good ones out and support them as often as you can.

And watch six, they ARE trolling the internet looking to "surpress" those who won't cave in to their nazi/mafia/orgainized crime like tactics.

IF I remember correctly - DeanG was a FS instructor.

fredj338
02-22-2010, 14:44
I think there is something ethically wrong with a company that has one student paying $200 for a class, while the student next to him is paying $2000, (ten times more) because he didn’t do enough research to understand the ‘cert’ program. An ethical businessman would have 1 price for everyone. Occasionally, some schools may offer LE discounts or discounts for returning customers but no other school in the country has the price fluctuations front sight does.
Not really, you see it in all walks of life. On your next plane trip, ask the guy next to you on the plane what he paid for his flight. I have a 24hr Fitness membership, cost me $36/yr! People are signing up everyday for that much a month & everything inbetween! It's capitalism, you negotiate your best deal. If you find out someone else payed less, negotiate better next time. FS may or may not be what is expressed here, but to condem them for having a floating price structure is just laughable. The entire USA is like that.:dunno:

K. Foster
02-23-2010, 17:26
I don't find anything humorous about having my life or that of my family threatened by anyone

I wouldnít either. Thanks for the reply.

CBennett
02-23-2010, 17:49
oh you just all did it...everyone on this thread is now BANNED! from FS!

oh and IBL

odesskiy
03-02-2010, 10:40
Good! I didn't want to be banned all by my lonesome! :tongueout:


oh you just all did it...everyone on this thread is now BANNED! from FS!

oh and IBL

APD
03-02-2010, 10:52
This is pretty funny. I attended FS two years ago and took a 4-day Defensive Handgun course. I was rather impressed by training but no so impressed by their marketing shpiel and their membership system. But more on that later.

I didn't really consider going back, but there is a 4-Day rifle class being put on at the end of this month and it's meant to benefit a good cause, so I figured I'd attend. I was looking forward to meeting and shooting with fellow Calgunners. More on this class:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=205793

So I printed out FS's application, filled it out and faxed it in. Here's the reply I got back:



At first I wasn't even sure what he was talking about, so I e-mailed him back and then he made a reference that made me remember posting here on GT after initially attending their class.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10455584&postcount=10

I guess my e-mail address is similar enough to my handle.

Seriously, what kind of pathetic company instead of concentrating on running their business would scour the internet to find people that had less than stellar things to say about them? What's even funnier is that everything I predicted two years ago is coming to fruition. FS even briefly went into recievership not that long ago. The prices of memberships are down to almost nothing. The $200K Diamond Memberships they used to sell to suckered customers are now going for $5K. I talked to a gentleman that recently bought a Diamond Membership for $7K. Wanna guess what the extra $2K were for? A timeshare that would allow you to spend a week in one of the condo's that will be built on Front Sight's property. Are you friggin' kidding me? I remember hearing about that million-dollar septic system more than 2.5 years ago. As far as I know, everyone is still using porta-potties. This has all the makings of a pyramid scheme. They will keep dropping the prices until they can no longer attract new customers and then there will be no capital to pay the bills and then the doors will close for good.

Oh well, thank goodness there are still plenty of companies around that provide high-quality firearms training without any gimmicks, lies and scams.

Great post and you presented everything very respectfully.
I have never attended training at FS but if this is true, I can guarantee I will never attend a class. Not only that, after I research this further, I will pass this on to the1000+ other officers I work with at every opportunity.
Any training institute which does not welcome feedback or try to resolve issues with unhappy customers, is an institute which does not have the student's best interests in mind.

Believe it or not FRONT SIGHT, the internet has much negative things to say.
Congratulations on guaranteeing you will never get a dime from me for training and spreading the word about your "sensitivity".

Show your feelings by spreading the word to shooting associates about this.
Remind them that there are a few other reputable institutions more deserving.:steamed:

sfguard
03-02-2010, 11:23
Darn it, I was only a couple hundred away from having $200,000 for my membership I wanted. Oh well, now what to spend my money on.

Tactical black
03-02-2010, 14:17
Darn it, I was only a couple hundred away from having $200,000 for my membership I wanted. Oh well, now what to spend my money on.

O come on you can get the All-Inclusive Diamond Lifetime Membership for ONLY $99,800 :rofl::rofl:

APD
03-02-2010, 15:28
Darn it, I was only a couple hundred away from having $200,000 for my membership I wanted. Oh well, now what to spend my money on.

For that kind of jack I better get a complementary M1 Abrams for personal use and a few howitzers. That's ridiculous.:upeyes:

quickdraw 9762
03-09-2010, 18:09
Well reading this was a waste of 30 minutes of my life that I will never get back.

APD
03-09-2010, 21:43
Well reading this was a waste of 30 minutes of my life that I will never get back.

Plus the 30 seconds it took you to post your response. You obviously value your time.
Add additional time for your response to my response to your response....or something like that.:tongueout:

HAIL CAESAR
03-10-2010, 01:17
Could some of you who know schools that banned customers because of comments they made please post the names of the schools or instructors. I would be very interested and would prefer do do business with instructors or schools that conduct themselves in a more adult and business like manner. I have a very hard time imagining S&W Academy, Sig Academy or Gunsight doing something like this.


Yes, I would like to know also.

odesskiy
03-10-2010, 12:16
Yes, it's hard to admit that you gave your hard-earned money to a lying scientologist shyster.

Well reading this was a waste of 30 minutes of my life that I will never get back.

Elliott
03-10-2010, 15:13
Dear Mr. Piazza,
Please do me the honor of banning me from your classes.
Thank you.

robrides85
03-10-2010, 17:07
IF I remember correctly - DeanG was a FS instructor.

Love the internet:

http://www.dianahsieh.com/frontsight/
references DeanG

Definitely worth a read, with nice links to other great reads.

Now when I think of FS, I get a picture of Chef from Southpark in my head.

Elliott
03-10-2010, 17:41
Why do I picture "The Training Nazi" ?
Step to back of line, nooo training for you !:shame:

I gotta tell ya, FS is pathetic and inept, if these accusations are true.

odesskiy
03-11-2010, 11:20
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/782409/posts?page=7

Scroll down and read The Fourth Secret by Dean Gamburd (DeanG)

Texas357
03-11-2010, 21:29
How does he manage to keep this sort of behavior up? Don't people look him up, before getting suckered into doing business with him?

SafetyGuy83
03-12-2010, 04:45
Hey I just wanted to jump on the banned wagon. Wasn't planning on going to any courses although I did check out the websight and for my trouble got endless emails offering me "free self defense tips" that involved things like attending his classes. Or if I really wanted to learn the secrets of self defense I should attend one of his classes. Or if I needed to learn how to defend myself I should you guessed it...Take one of his classes. This tactic is kind of a joke. All I wanted to do was look into what FS offered and my inbox was repeatedly and indescriminately bombarded even after I asked to be removed from the mailing list. No thank you sir. I am not buying what you are selling.

I am definitely banned now!:upeyes:

quickdraw 9762
04-18-2010, 19:07
Yes, it's hard to admit that you gave your hard-earned money to a lying scientologist shyster.

There was 800 of us misguided sheep there training last weekend. I wonder how many other schools have 800 people training in a year or ever for that matter. You're biggest complaint is that you wanted to go there "again" but were denied. Most people drinking the coolaid on this thread have never been there. The most all of you can come up with is "scientologist shyster". I would never have heard of scientology if it wasn't for internet commandos. I've never heard it there. For all of the talk about Front Sight hanging on by their firgertips or about to go out of business, they have just about completed 11 new ranges and a water and sewer system. Not specualtion or promises, it's standing there as I type. 4 of the ranges were open last weekend because of the record crowd. But keep the cruisade going, maybe you think you'll get your pound of flesh eventually.

JoeInKS
04-18-2010, 20:49
While this may indeed be a legitimate and beneficial business to those who train there, I can't help but notice the many typical "scam" marketing items employed on the site including offering memberships with 'act now' / 'limited offerings' to the 'unbelievable' markdowns if you pay in full. My apologies to Front Sight if I interpreted what I perceived incorrectly but I've been through quite a few 'gimmick' marketing / 'high pressure' sales courses and the good Doctor has succeeded in employing some great techniques. My compliments.

odesskiy
04-19-2010, 15:21
LOL...you should talk about Kool-Aid drinking. Maybe one day you'll open your eyes and realize that besides their pyramid scheme and their shady tactics like intimidation, lawsuit threats, outright lies, contempt of court, etc., etc., etc. there's one other major problem. Their square range mentality and their packing of 40 students into a class with only 1 instructor and 2 assistants via their touted blind-leading-the-blind system simply doesn't work past the basic gun-handling skills. But hey, keep at it and the Allmighty Chiropractor might even bestow a "Combat Master" title upon you. :rofl:

<sigh>Yet another proof that an unscrupulous salesman can sell snow to eskimos....

There was 800 of us misguided sheep there training last weekend. I wonder how many other schools have 800 people training in a year or ever for that matter. You're biggest complaint is that you wanted to go there "again" but were denied. Most people drinking the coolaid on this thread have never been there. The most all of you can come up with is "scientologist shyster". I would never have heard of scientology if it wasn't for internet commandos. I've never heard it there. For all of the talk about Front Sight hanging on by their firgertips or about to go out of business, they have just about completed 11 new ranges and a water and sewer system. Not specualtion or promises, it's standing there as I type. 4 of the ranges were open last weekend because of the record crowd. But keep the cruisade going, maybe you think you'll get your pound of flesh eventually.

Thorazine
04-19-2010, 17:15
oh you just all did it...everyone on this thread is now BANNED! from FS!

oh and IBL

Yea!

Saved me some ($$$)!! :tongueout:

captdreifus
04-19-2010, 18:58
FS sucks my left cashew. I'm banned for sure!

manonmars
04-21-2010, 10:56
nevermind.............

HAIL CAESAR
04-21-2010, 14:20
nevermind.............

I saw what you put first. It happened to me too.

odesskiy
04-21-2010, 14:21
What are you guys talking about? PM me if you have to.

I saw what you put first. It happened to me too.

HAIL CAESAR
04-21-2010, 14:24
Oh, just enter your email to FS and sit back and watch............................

3 or 4 emails a day. All "Hard Sales". Telling you, you will die if you don't train there, dropping the price every other day, yadda..yadda..

manonmars
04-21-2010, 14:32
You saw it eh?

OK, I was just looking for info about FS.

I joined their e-mail list, and have received 1-2-3 e-mails per day trying to sell me something, or to do this and receive a "special Thank You" (more discounts on classes, etc).

Being good at spotting RED FLAGS (most of the time), I became concerned.

I went a' searchin' on Google and turned up some interesting info.

Disclaimer; "NOT everything on line is truthful and accurate".

But if 25% of what I read is accurate, HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

I canceled my e-mail subscription today.

Something is wrong with this picture..............................

odesskiy
04-21-2010, 14:33
LOL...they've always been known for that, but apparently it's escalating. They are getting more and more aggressive. My guess is since the price of their "super-duper-platinum" memberships keeps going down, they need to bring more and more fresh blood in to sustain themselves.

Oh, just enter your email to FS and sit back and watch............................

3 or 4 emails a day. All "Hard Sales". Telling you, you will die if you don't train there, dropping the price every other day, yadda..yadda..

manonmars
04-21-2010, 14:40
odesskiy, you are lucky.

I'm gona' request they ban me also...........:supergrin::cool:

Thanks for starting this thread. I saved about $2,000!

steve2267
04-21-2010, 14:52
Being good at spotting RED FLAGS (most of the time), I became concerned.

I went a' searchin' on Google and turned up some interesting info.



Google-fu is STRONG with this one.


Woops! Am I banned too? Rats.

Alaskapopo
04-21-2010, 21:40
This is what happens when ego gets in the way of common sense. Instead of banning you, the guy should have welcomed you with open arms. It is not often that you get a second chance with a disgruntled customer.


I agree. If someone did not like something I did as a trainer I would try to improve that area.

My only experience with Front Site was at the Shotshow about 6 years back. I admit I am over weight. Anyway the front site guy is offering me literature and then makes a under handed comment about needing to be in better shape to attend their classes. Again I need to lose some weight but I have managed to make it through some pretty hard physically intensive training to date without dropping dead or not keeping up. I was not impressed with the guys diplomacy.

Pat

GlocksterPaulie
04-21-2010, 21:56
Funny, I knew an Instructor there Ten years ago who was over 300 pounds.

Paulie:rofl:

tacman605
04-22-2010, 00:27
There was 800 of us misguided sheep there training last weekend. I wonder how many other schools have 800 people training in a year or ever for that matter.
They have just about completed 11 new ranges and a water and sewer system. Not specualtion or promises, it's standing there as I type. 4 of the ranges were open last weekend because of the record crowd.

You know parts of this are almost the same statements posted on the FS websites and infomercials over the last couple of weeks,months, years. You are right on a couple of counts many have never been to front sight for training and many are following suit from what they read on the internet. The water and sewer lines are laid but are not hooked up and by public record the fire suppression system is not functioning because there is no water going to it and finally just because 800 people showed up because they got a discount coupon does not make the training good as you said you were all misguided sheep.
I had occasion to exchange e mails with Dr. Pizza Guy over a 12 year old video of a young deputy that was gunned down on a traffic stop that appeared on his monday blog one time. The end conclusion was he was right I was wrong for daring to question him and I would die in the same way as the deputy because I did not have his mindset. Then a week or so later he sent out another email saying he was not responsible for the video and that people had bullied their way onto forums and bashed him. When you have not had a lot of formal or practical firearms training FS does look like a great place to go. They teach basic firearms with some very basic tactics and let the average shooter fire a sub gun if they want to pay the cash to do it. Pizza guy is a former chiropractor who shoots and is the ultimate used car salesman he has never been involved in a lethal force encounter and is not an LEO, even his part time deputy status was revoked by the sheriff. His instructors may be top notch not knocking them but he says himself on his website you teach things his way, right or wrong, or hit the highway.
A lot of his blogs, posts, and ads are years old with the same offers over and over again. The same memberships are sold at high prices and discounted as memberships start to fall off. I do not know if this guy is a scientologist or not nor do I care. I do care however that he has defrauded people, lied and teaches people just enough to get themselves killed or in legal trouble.
His claims are marketing hype "Shoot better than a SWAT cop or Navy Seal" come on even a person with the least amount of common sense should be able to see through this mess but the chance at a Gold membership and all this free stuff blinds a lot of people.

Alaskapopo
04-22-2010, 01:29
[B]His claims are marketing hype "Shoot better than a SWAT cop or Navy Seal" come on even a person with the least amount of common sense should be able to see through this mess but the chance at a Gold membership and all this free stuff blinds a lot of people.

Good post. One thing. Its not that big of a deal to shoot better than a SWAT Cop or a NAVY SEAL. There are tons of competition shooters out there that can do that from a pure shooting skill standpoint. What I hope a training school like that would offer is good training on tactics. I have not been to Front Sight nor will I go. I feel that I am beyond what they can teach me at this point. If I go to a school it will be from a grand master level shooter in USPSA. I have been to my share of tactical shooting schools and they do give you a good foundation on shooting and tactics. But at this point I want to refine what I have to a higher level.
Pat

tacman605
04-22-2010, 03:03
You are right an accomplished competition shooter can probably beat them out on a marksmanship course but when the targets are shooting back I would go with the Cop or SEAL.

Alaskapopo
04-22-2010, 03:26
You are right an accomplished competition shooter can probably beat them out on a marksmanship course but when the targets are shooting back I would go with the Cop or SEAL.

Depends. I have been through basic entry team training and Sniper training and I was the best shooter in the entry team class and the 2nd best in the sniper class. Yet I am not the top at the USPSA and IDPA clubs I shoot at. I usually get from 4th to 6th place out of 20 to 25 shooters. Based on what I have seen the standards for SWAT is not nearly as high as we most people think when it comes to firearms skills. The guy who taught me a Glock Instructors workshop class was a former seal. Nice guy but I could shoot better than him.

So the point being competition shooters are the best shooters out there when it comes to speed and accuracy. Now who would win in a real gun fight who knows. It depends on the situation. Out in the open the competition shooter would smoke. If there is cover to be used and tactics that come into play. Probably the SWAT cop or SEAL. The best is to be both.
Pat

manonmars
04-22-2010, 11:28
[B]
" Dr. Pizza Guy" ...." Pizza guy"
:rofl::rofl:

I thought I was the only one who called him this........

This means there must be THOUSANDS who think of Pizza delivery when they think of FS.........:supergrin:


Initially, I wanted to attend Thunder Ranch, as I have heard good things about them, they are closer, too.

But they are booked forever.

Can Anyone recommend good videos?

And what's the riff between FS & GT?

Again, glad I found this thread.

Thanks everyone.

Now, where did I put my book entitled "Scientology and the tactical Pizza Delivery man"?

David Armstrong
04-22-2010, 11:58
If you are close to TR I'm guessing that you are somewhere in the great Northwest. Try looking into the Firearms Academy of Seattle with Marty Hayes. Not only is Mary a great trainer but he regularly has top-level trainers from other parts of the country coming through his facility. www.firearmsacademy.com

steve2267
04-22-2010, 15:59
You guys gotta get with the program.

It's not Pizza Guy.... it's Icky Pizza. Can't just ignore the firstname now, can we? Although I suppose you could concatenate everything into the Icky Pizza Guy.

manonmars
04-22-2010, 20:42
Y........... Although I suppose you could concatenate everything into the Icky Pizza Guy.

OK, I want to concatenate all these ropes I have in the garage........

OR, maybe I'll concatenate all these Refers I have stacked on m table...
(or maybe I don't have any:supergrin:)

Thanks for the info about Seattle training. I'm checking it out

For now though, I'm going to concatenate all my $100 dollar bills. (SHOULD TAKE ME ABOUT 1 SECOND....................)

tacman605
04-23-2010, 05:49
Manonmars get the Magpul Dynamics handgun and carbine videos absolutely fantastic.

digitalmike47
05-21-2010, 08:15
Guess I am a chump then. I went to FS last year, and had a blast. I got what I consider my monies worth, and more.

But then again, I bought a timeshare at the beach 25 years ago, and have been very happy with that too. People said they would go under, and I would loose my shirt, but I have been to some great places, and saved a lot of money.

I'll be going back to FS next year, and taking my son. If it goes under tomorrow, I still feel like I got a great experience, and wasn't pressured into anything I didn't want to do.

Just my opinion.....

RDW
05-21-2010, 14:40
If you are close to TR I'm guessing that you are somewhere in the great Northwest. Try looking into the Firearms Academy of Seattle with Marty Hayes. Not only is Mary a great trainer but he regularly has top-level trainers from other parts of the country coming through his facility. www.firearmsacademy.com

Great school, and a Great guy.

APD
06-02-2010, 19:01
You are right an accomplished competition shooter can probably beat them out on a marksmanship course but when the targets are shooting back I would go with the Cop or SEAL.

My thought exactly.
Its easy to punch small groups but when you are carrying 80 pounds of gear and have every man, woman, and child within 10 miles trying to kill you.....the difficulty level rises a few notches.

I will take the SWAT/SEAL/Cop methods of eliminating a lethal threat before the chiropractors. I love my chiropractor but I would not trust him to kill a snake in my back yard without hurting himself.
Just sayin.:supergrin:

Alaskapopo
06-02-2010, 19:54
My thought exactly.
Its easy to punch small groups but when you are carrying 80 pounds of gear and have every man, woman, and child within 10 miles trying to kill you.....the difficulty level rises a few notches.

I will take the SWAT/SEAL/Cop methods of eliminating a lethal threat before the chiropractors. I love my chiropractor but I would not trust him to kill a snake in my back yard without hurting himself.
Just sayin.:supergrin:

Not all competition shooting is about punching small groups. USPSA and IDPA is about speed. As a cop I will say that most cops are not shooting where they should be and most are afraid to go to competition because their pride will get hurt. I have a hard time getting my officers out to local matches that I host.
Pat

bigez
06-02-2010, 20:36
You know, Front Sight DID seem kinda interesting to me, but after hearing this, I don't know if I'll be able to go there now. Banning somebody for giving their opinion on something? Ridiculous. It's also ridiculous that someone that makes a living based on the Second Amendment is so AGAINST the First Amendment. It's not like the OP slammed them or anything. Count me out.

APD
06-03-2010, 16:01
Not all competition shooting is about punching small groups. USPSA and IDPA is about speed. As a cop I will say that most cops are not shooting where they should be and most are afraid to go to competition because their pride will get hurt. I have a hard time getting my officers out to local matches that I host.
Pat


Same here.
Not saying cops are the end all be all, just that they usually have more stress/life threatening gun experience than most paper punchers. Ask most cops what IDPA is and they will reply, "huh?".:dunno:
You would figure that those who carry guns for a living would get fantastic training from their agency but we all know police work is about bean counting in some manner.
Ammo and overtime ain't cheap.

Alaskapopo
06-03-2010, 16:05
Same here.
Not saying cops are the end all be all, just that they usually have more stress/life threatening gun experience than most paper punchers. Ask most cops what IDPA is and they will reply, "huh?".:dunno:
You would figure that those who carry guns for a living would get fantastic training from their agency but we all know police work is about bean counting in some manner.
Ammo and overtime ain't cheap.

I agree with that post. Cops are or at least should be able to handle stress better. I wish I could give more training to my officers but like you said there is only so much ammo and over time money available.
Pat

PEC-Memphis
06-03-2010, 16:25
Not all competition shooting is about punching small groups. USPSA and IDPA is about speed. As a cop I will say that most cops are not shooting where they should be and most are afraid to go to competition because their pride will get hurt. I have a hard time getting my officers out to local matches that I host.
Pat

Thread Drift Warning ! (Not that I'm not enjoying the Icky Pizza Guy Bashing)

It is nice to hear this from the viewpoint of a LE officer. We have had several of our local PD and Sheriff's Department come to IDPA matches. Usually a painter, pilot, auto mechanic or engineer beats the pants off of them and they don't come back.

Pride is a funny thing. Rather than realizing that you can't walk into something "off the street" and win - most quit. It is a shame - because if they didn't quit they might learn some skills which they might find useful in combination with their other skill sets.

We have had a couple of LE guys attend regularly. They found out that their service weapons didn't always function properly when shooting fast. The found out that reloading under pressure was a lot different that reloading between qualification COFs. They kept taking their weapons back to the department armorer until they ran right.

I took a FoF class and easily "out-shot" the instructor who is a co-commander of the SWAT/DE team in a nearby community. During the FoF drills he beat me up, took my gun away from me and shot me (simunition). I learned a valuable lesson - protecting the weapon is job #1. As long as I managed to retain my weapon, I usually won.

There is more to surviving an encounter than being a good shot.

All said, I wouldn't want to be in law enforcement for three times what most get paid - but I'm glad somebody wants to put their life on the line every day for people they don't know.

Alaskapopo
06-03-2010, 16:35
Thread Drift Warning ! (Not that I'm not enjoying the Icky Pizza Guy Bashing)

It is nice to hear this from the viewpoint of a LE officer. We have had several of our local PD and Sheriff's Department come to IDPA matches. Usually a painter, pilot, auto mechanic or engineer beats the pants off of them and they don't come back.

Pride is a funny thing. Rather than realizing that you can't walk into something "off the street" and win - most quit. It is a shame - because if they didn't quit they might learn some skills which they might find useful in combination with their other skill sets.

We have had a couple of LE guys attend regularly. They found out that their service weapons didn't always function properly when shooting fast. The found out that reloading under pressure was a lot different that reloading between qualification COFs. They kept taking their weapons back to the department armorer until they ran right.

I took a FoF class and easily "out-shot" the instructor who is a co-commander of the SWAT/DE team in a nearby community. During the FoF drills he beat me up, took my gun away from me and shot me (simunition). I learned a valuable lesson - protecting the weapon is job #1. As long as I managed to retain my weapon, I usually won.

There is more to surviving an encounter than being a good shot.

All said, I wouldn't want to be in law enforcement for three times what most get paid - but I'm glad somebody wants to put their life on the line every day for people they don't know.

I was humbled when I first shot a IDPA match then USPSA. I was used to being the best shooter amongst my peers. (cops) then I found myself in the middle of the pack in competition. After shooting IDPA, USPSA and three gun for the last 4 years I have become a much better shooter and now I am towards the top 25% at club matches across the state. I figured I was ready for some national level competition. So I went to the Larue three gun match. I found myself in the middle of the pack again. So instead of licking my wounds I am going to work on the areas that caused me troubles and improve and next year I hope to do better.
If you continually raise the bar you will do better. If you keep your standards low you will never improve.

j-glock22
06-03-2010, 17:14
hey how about you re-register using a completely remote email address not linked to any gun forums such as this?

odesskiy
06-03-2010, 18:19
LOL...they banned me by name, not e-mail address. You send them a copy of your id and they do a background check. In any case, I would never consider giving them another penny of my money.

hey how about you re-register using a completely remote email address not linked to any gun forums such as this?

ESI Agent
06-06-2010, 14:52
Check out TFTT. You will be hard pressed to find a better training that gives you the tools to survive a combat encounter. There not just about shooting. They nurture mindset, tactics and marksmanship. Going to TFTT is like being back in the Marines which is fitting considering he and most of his instructors are or are former operators from the Marines and other high speed units. This is not a school for those who are not focused on safe weapon handling skill's it's a school for those wanting or who are worriers.

Deaf Smith
06-06-2010, 16:52
I was humbled when I first shot a IDPA match then USPSA. I was used to being the best shooter amongst my peers. (cops) then I found myself in the middle of the pack in competition. After shooting IDPA, USPSA and three gun for the last 4 years I have become a much better shooter and now I am towards the top 25% at club matches across the state. I figured I was ready for some national level competition. So I went to the Larue three gun match. I found myself in the middle of the pack again. So instead of licking my wounds I am going to work on the areas that caused me troubles and improve and next year I hope to do better.
If you continually raise the bar you will do better. If you keep your standards low you will never improve.

Alaska,

I am what I call a local 'hotshot'. In local IDPA matches I usually win, even with a Glock 19 or 26. But when I go to state matches I find there are alot of other local 'hotshots'.

While I do have some state trophies (IDPA and Steel Challenge) I suspect if I ever beat all those hotshots at state by any significant margine, then I'll find at the nationals there are alot of state 'hotshots'!

In short, IDPA and IPSC competition made me 10x better faster shot, and I realized there are other people who are good to. Some mighty good!

But competition, combined with good street smarts, gear, and tactics, is the way to go.

Deaf

Glock Gator
06-23-2010, 22:22
I thank you for the original post and staying with it nearly a year! I received FS mail materials today and was checking up on them. Thanks to your alert they will not get one dime from me.