I'd like some opinions from you folks in here on a few things related to christianity. I don't ask this in the public forum because I can pretty much figure the answers would get crazy.
My first question is; Do you think God ever forgives Suicide?
I've heard different people's interpretations of the bible on that subject, but I'd like your thoughts on the subject.
Thanks
Brown Hawk
09-20-2009, 19:44
LW,
To be honest, I looked at your most recent posts before I answered this, because I know how down you've been in the past. But you were pretty upbeat, even if you were feeling bad. The time on this post is when I was sitting in church and praying for you. Literally, that time, as I looked at my watch for some reason. And I never look at posting times, but I did on this post. So I'm going to give a short answer, then a long disertation, so I hope you will bear with me.
A part of your answer depends on your view of salvation.
As a Baptist, I believe, and can back it up with scripture, that once saved, always saved, so if an already saved person commits suicide, that person still goes to heaven. BUT suicide is not in God's plan for our lives, and that would be part of what we have to answer for when we stand before Him.
Others believe that you can deliberately turn away from God, and lose your salvation, and that suicide is a deliberate turing away from God, thus no forgiveness as there is no ability to ask for it. They also have scripture to back up the point.
That's the short answer.
Dispair is a sin, and since we are assured that we will not be tried beyond our endurance, to dispair to such an extent is to not believe what God promised. I'll admit, that I've sometimes felt that His opinion of my endurance was highly exaggerated, but at those times I have learned to lean on Him more. "God, you've got to handle this for me, because I can't." He wants us to turn it over to Him, and turn dispair in triumph.
The most recent time was two and a half years ago, when my son called from Baghdad and said that the army was going to be calling me, but that he wasn't hurt bad. The two to three weeks after that were maybe the worst of my life, or at least felt like it. The IED was up in a tree, designed to blow down through the Humvee gunner and kill all the crew. My son was the gunner.
For those weeks, the image would pop into my mind, almost freezing me. And each time, I used that prayer above. Got through that, and now he's on the QRF. Guess what I pray when I think about that?
One thought helps me in rough times, (aside from reading Job.)
He died for me when I was still a sinner, and forgave me in July 1960. But He knew in July 1960 that I was going to keep making mistakes, I was going to sin, I was going to fall down, and he still forgave me. He knew then that I was going to mess up on September 20, 2009, and He still forgave me over 49 years ago. When I think of that, I start to realize that I will never begin to understand just how awesome His love and forgiveness really is.
When you got home from your midnight walk (yes, I translate to Iraqi time automatically now), you felt a warming presence, and I don't believe it was an accident. I know that God gives us those things we need, when we need them the most. I know of some other incidents of a similar nature.
There is the saying, "When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on." When we're Christians, I believe God ties the knot and does the hanging on for us. He'll send a Mandy, or a Zonny, a Caterday thread or some message that says, "I'm always here. Here's something to prove it. So lean on me."
That was the long way around the block to say this:
Our times of deepest dispair are exactly those times when we grow closer to God. So suicide, or self-murder is robbing us of an opportunity to grow closer to God. And it is also robbing other people of the opportunity to learn from our suffering, and later on, for us to help other people to get through a similar situation.
So I answer, yes He will forgive suicide, but it will hurt Him, and His cause. He understands the feelings, after all He created us.
The other side of the coin is this: Someday, you will meet someone who is going through such times that they can only think of suicide as a way out, because they see no end to the pain they are going through.
THEN, you will be able to say, "I know how you feel. I was there. I contemplated suicide and God brought me through by sending people when I needed them. Now, He has sent me to you to show you the real way out of your pain."
There is no better way to witness to someone going through pain, than to be able to tell them that you have been there, and there is a light. If someone is not there because of suicide, what becomes of that person that someone was supposed to help?
As Christians, that is one reason why we are supposed to share our trials and tribulations. So that others may learn and KNOW by example that Christ gets us through the most difficult times.
In Christ,
Hawk
Hack
09-20-2009, 21:38
I will not say that suicide is a good thing. I will say this, God is not slow to forgive sin. Perhaps you know someone in need of good pastoral counsel. If you would rather PM, you can do that as well.
Scripture shows several instances of people in trouble and God coming through in the end. Job is a great book for that example. There is also the possibility that tendencies toward suicide is something medically related, in which case it should be addressed medically, as well as with proper counseling.
Lone_Wolfe
09-24-2009, 13:00
It’s taken me several days to respond here because I’d write for a bit then delete what I’d written. I’m not sure how much I want to say, but since this is a private area I’ll talk about some things I wouldn’t otherwise. Interesting coincidence that you would note the time I posted. I had written out that post several hours earlier then hesitated to post it at all. Then finally I came in here and decided to go ahead with it. I was thinking of many of you that have been praying for me when I did and I didn’t want to give the wrong impression or scare anyone.
Brown Hawk, thank you for such a thoughtful answer. These kind of questions go through my mind these days, just part of what’s happening to me. My post here wasn't meant to make anyone think I was planning something like this, or asking God’s permission, but since it came out I'll address it.
Yes, I did seriously consider killing myself. For a few months I wasn’t getting any better, in fact I was getting worse and I saw no hope that anything was going to change. Plus the meds I was on were causeing me to think and do things I wouldn't normally do. I haven’t said this in the GNG thread, but I did attempt it. I look back now and think only divine intervention caused the malfunction that spared me. That feeds even more into the belief I’ve mentioned that there is some reason I’m still here. God has to have something in mind for me because I’ve defied way too many odds. I'm not planning or seriously considering it now. I think most of the danger has passed. I'm not home free, but I'm better than I was. I’ve gotten to where I can fight off the most despairing thoughts a little better than before.
Something good did come from my attempt, I ended up back in the hospital finally getting the help I needed. The constant nightmares that I’m still having were made even worse by the meds I was prescribed and the lack of sleep drove me over the edge. Two of those problems are being dealt with now so I can work on the nightmares. Now I just have to keep pushing.
I’ve had a couple incidents like what happened when I was walking the other night that remind me of a power much greater than myself. I know I mentioned the visions I had a couple times, but I’ve had things like that happen even before I went overseas. Not very many, but it has happened.
So often I’ve heard different views on this subject, even from members of the same denomination. That’s why I brought it into here. Even from Catholics I’ve heard everything from “You’ll go straight to hell with no chance for forgiveness”, to “you’ll do some time in Purgatory and then have the chance to be forgiven” and other opinions. It seems there is no definitive answer. I will say that when I was to the point of seriously considering this path none of that mattered. Rational thought about the afterlife kinda takes a backseat. I could go more into what sort of thoughts take over if anyone wants to hear it, but you get the idea. I do have an understanding I've never had before.
As I look back on where I was I find myself wondering things like whether God forgives suicide and if he normally wouldn’t would a person being mentally ill, terminally ill, or drug addicted matter.
Brown Hawk, I will be praying for your son’s safety over here now too. And I’m glad the IED injury wasn’t serious!
Brown Hawk
09-24-2009, 13:43
LW,
This is what I meant when I said that this was part of your growth. Many times we will look back on something like this and ask "What if . . ." And we learn and we grow.
I decided before I posted that you weren't "asking permission", but were trying to put your experience in perspective in regards to your faith - and your life.
Having gone through a little bit with my son and his wife, I know that the nightmares can be rough. As you get a handle, they will dominate your life less and less.
And I believe that God's mercy knows no bounds, and that, if a person was a Christian, all is forgiven. After all, he knew you were going to do it before he forgave you back in '78, and took you in anyway.:cool: (To say nothing of he took me in.:supergrin:)
Thank you for sharing all of that. I know it was difficult. But your ordeal has already inspired a lot of people, as it will help people in the future, if you continue to share when needed.
In Christ,
Hawk
ETA: Thanks for the prayers for Adam.
<--------- That's him. (Not like I'm a proud father or anything. :rofl:)
Peace Warrior
10-14-2009, 01:09
L_W
No one ever wants to die, in fact, all they really want is the pain to go away. Suicide doesn't stop the pain, it just takes it to another place. Only one Way to really stop the pain sweetheart, and that is give it to the One that is big enough to be able to take it from you. You know.
This is what I meant when I said that this was part of your growth. Many times we will look back on something like this and ask "What if . . ." And we learn and we grow.
I decided before I posted that you weren't "asking permission", but were trying to put your experience in perspective in regards to your faith - and your life.
Having gone through a little bit with my son and his wife, I know that the nightmares can be rough. As you get a handle, they will dominate your life less and less.
And I believe that God's mercy knows no bounds, and that, if a person was a Christian, all is forgiven. After all, he knew you were going to do it before he forgave you back in '78, and took you in anyway.:cool: (To say nothing of he took me in.:supergrin:)
Thank you for sharing all of that. I know it was difficult. But your ordeal has already inspired a lot of people, as it will help people in the future, if you continue to share when needed.
In Christ,
Hawk
ETA: Thanks for the prayers for Adam.
<--------- That's him. (Not like I'm a proud father or anything. :rofl:)
BrownHawk, you do have a different perspective than many I’ve heard on this subject. I'm glad you've taken time to share and hope you'll continue. I’m also hoping someone who holds the opinion that suicide is unforgiveable will visit this thread because I have more questions for someone with that opinion.
You make the comment that God already knows everything we are going to do, but sometimes I wonder if really he doesn’t, but just accepts us and our free will anyway. :dunno:
You aren’t kidding about the nightmares, I’d love just to have one night of normal sleep. You and another person said that I’m inspiring people, and I’m trying to figure out how. I mean, I sure haven’t won this battle. At least not yet.
No, I’d never guess you were a proud father. :supergrin: How’s he doing anyway?
L_W
No one ever wants to die, in fact, all they really want is the pain to go away. Suicide doesn't stop the pain, it just takes it to another place. Only one Way to really stop the pain sweetheart, and that is give it to the One that is big enough to be able to take it from you. You know.
Hey Peace Warrior, my internet connection’s too slow for videos, but maybe if you tell me the song names I can look up the lyrics online?
The bolded statement you made is so true, I knew that even then. In fact I remember an email I sent to someone I was talking to a lot at the time. He knew even more than I’ve posted on GT about what was happening and around July I said “I need relief from this pain, I don’t care if it comes from God, a bottle of pills, or the end of a gun, I just need relief”.
If God's going to take this I just wish he'd do it a bit faster.
Brown Hawk
10-15-2009, 18:13
BrownHawk, you do have a different perspective than many I’ve heard on this subject.Essentially, it's a Baptist position, based on the "Once saved, Always saved" theology. I'm glad you've taken time to share and hope you'll continue. I’m also hoping someone who holds the opinion that suicide is unforgiveable will visit this thread because I have more questions for someone with that opinion. The suicide is unforgivable position comes from a position that salvation can be lost, that someone who was once a Christian can deliberately turn away from God. The seven mortal sins are a part of this, where if you commit one of these sins, your salvation is lost. And since murder is one of the deadly sins, and suicide is self murder, to kill yourself is a mortal sin, costing your salvation. And since you are dead, you can't repent, therefore suicide is an unforgivable sin. (That's what you get for hooking up with somebody who studies and teaches apologetics. I got all kinds of stuff whirling around up there. :supergrin:)
You make the comment that God already knows everything we are going to do, but sometimes I wonder if really he doesn’t, but just accepts us and our free will anyway. :dunno: Here you get into God's sovereignty, and man's free will. THAT discussion has been going on for a few thousnad years. :supergrin: Most likely another whole thread.
You aren’t kidding about the nightmares, I’d love just to have one night of normal sleep. You and another person said that I’m inspiring people, and I’m trying to figure out how. I mean, I sure haven’t won this battle. At least not yet. The greatest fights are those where you get knocked down and keep getting up. What inspires people is when someone is having a hard time and just doesn't quit. That is what you are doing. And that is what is inspiring people, the "not yet".
No, I’d never guess you were a proud father. :supergrin: How’s he doing anyway?
Adam's still QRF out of Taji Air Base. Since his cell phone doesn't work up there, we have to type IM's back and forth. He's doing okay, had to spin up a couple of times when I was on with him. But no problem according to him. Just lack of sleep sometimes.
Passed his sergeant's board, so he should get his stripes Nov. 1 - if the army doesn't change the rules. His return got advanced from early Jan. to sometime in Dec. :supergrin:
Love and prayers,
Hawk
Hack
10-16-2009, 08:42
Adam's still QRF out of Taji Air Base. Since his cell phone doesn't work up there, we have to type IM's back and forth. He's doing okay, had to spin up a couple of times when I was on with him. But no problem according to him. Just lack of sleep sometimes.
Passed his sergeant's board, so he should get his stripes Nov. 1 - if the army doesn't change the rules. His return got advanced from early Jan. to sometime in Dec. :supergrin:
Love and prayers,
Hawk
Prayers inbound from an Army Vet.
Brown Hawk
10-16-2009, 17:06
Prayers inbound from an Army Vet.
Thanks, I'll take all of that I can get.
And don't forget LW and the fight she's going through either.
Hawk
Lone_Wolfe
10-16-2009, 17:59
The suicide is unforgivable position comes from a position that salvation can be lost, that someone who was once a Christian can deliberately turn away from God. The seven mortal sins are a part of this, where if you commit one of these sins, your salvation is lost. And since murder is one of the deadly sins, and suicide is self murder, to kill yourself is a mortal sin, costing your salvation. And since you are dead, you can't repent, therefore suicide is an unforgivable sin. (That's what you get for hooking up with somebody who studies and teaches apologetics. I got all kinds of stuff whirling around up there. :supergrin::rofl:
I could see where deliberately turning from God could be an act of free will, but does the once-saved-always-saved still allow for choices. For example the choice to completely renounce Christianity like a person can renounce their citizenship. Maybe even going so far as to worship Satan instead.
Even when I was a member of a Baptist church I never completely understood the once-saved-always-saved position. Even if I’d pointed the gun at myself with a clear head and thinking “I know this is a sin, but so what”, the idea that I would still be forgiven is surely a testament to a forgiving God. And one I don’t fully understand.
I’m also hoping some people that hold different opinions will offer theirs in this thread.
Here you get into God's sovereignty, and man's free will. THAT discussion has been going on for a few thousnad years. :supergrin: Most likely another whole thread.
I hope you don’t mind I’d like to have that conversation with you and others here. I have some questions and thoughts on the subject in general and on how it might apply to what happened and is still happening to me.
Adam's still QRF out of Taji Air Base. Since his cell phone doesn't work up there, we have to type IM's back and forth. He's doing okay, had to spin up a couple of times when I was on with him. But no problem according to him. Just lack of sleep sometimes.
Passed his sergeant's board, so he should get his stripes Nov. 1 - if the army doesn't change the rules. His return got advanced from early Jan. to sometime in Dec. :supergrin:
Love and prayers,
Hawk
Wow, tell him Congrats for me. Glad to hear he’s getting out of here soon. He’ll stay in my prayers.
Brown Hawk
10-16-2009, 19:09
I could see where deliberately turning from God could be an act of free will, but does the once-saved-always-saved still allow for choices. For example the choice to completely renounce Christianity like a person can renounce their citizenship. Maybe even going so far as to worship Satan instead.
Even when I was a member of a Baptist church I never completely understood the once-saved-always-saved position. Even if I’d pointed the gun at myself with a clear head and thinking “I know this is a sin, but so what”, the idea that I would still be forgiven is surely a testament to a forgiving God. And one I don’t fully understand.
...
Once saved, always saved is a doctrine based on several passages in the Bible. At one point, Christ says of believers "No one can take them from my hand." In 1st John (I think), John talks about people leaving the body as "they were never really of us."
The doctrine does not take away free will. We can still oppose what God wants, and if we continue on that path, God will remove us from the Earth as we are hindering His work. We will still be in heaven, but will get there "as through a fire." None of the good works piled up in heaven. In most of those cases, we would probably consider that the person was never really saved in the first place. But that is God's decision, not ours.
As to your example of knowing suicide is a sin and still going through, I personally believe that that would be a mental problem, despair and distress so great as to unhinge the mind. So the person in that state is not responsible mentally. Personally, I believe that God understands that, and forgives it while deploring it.
Basically, once His, His love and support will keep us from ever wanting anything less.
As far as going all the way to worship Satan, I would have to believe that "they were not of us" to begin with. I don't believe that anyone who has experienced the love and support of God could go that far - at least without God removing them from us.
And keep in mind that ANY sin hurts God - from the least to the greatest - they ALL keep us from him. And if all sins hurt him equally, then forgiving that white lie and forgiving suicide is not that much different. One illustration I have heard that I like is this: If you are at the bottom of the Mariana's Trench (seven miles down), or at the top of Mt. Everest (seven miles up), the difference is great to us, but the difference of those 14 miles in height is an insignificant part of the total distance to the moon.
It truly is a testament to a forgiving and loving God. And I understand it less every day, so don't feel bad. God has forgiven murderers, and taken them to heaven. Always remember Paul, who was once Saul, and took people of "The Way" to be tried and killed, which makes him a murderer by Christ's strict definition.
I hope you don’t mind I’d like to have that conversation with you and others here. I have some questions and thoughts on the subject in general and on how it might apply to what happened and is still happening to me.
As far as Christ knowing what sins we are going to commit in the future years of our lives, I go with C.S. Lewis, who's answer to the predestination paradox was: "Watching someone do something is not the same as making them do it."
Hang on, this gets to be fun. Since God created time, God is outside of time, and can therefore see any time as "now" (for us). That means He can see you on your deathbed 60 years from now, at the same time He sees you being born, coming to Him, going to Afganistan, being wounded, coming home. To Him, those are all "now". Since time has no meaning for Him, He's watching me screw up tomorrow while at the same time he's watching me come to Him in 1960. That is why I can say He knew when He forgave me that I would screw up 49+ years later because He was seeing it all at the same time. (Sorry, the language doesn't fit the concept.:supergrin:)
That is how I have come to view the question of God's sovereignty and our free will. And I will take this part and start another thread with your question and this reply.
Thanks for your prayers for Adam. As I told Hack, I'll take all I can get.
