Women just starting out at the range.... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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drpdw
09-27-2009, 15:37
I am hoping that this New Thread will generate a lot of conversation from the women out there. Ladies, don't be afraid to join GT and get on the Forum! (When you create your personal profile, you can only include for public viewing whatever you feel comfortable others knowing about you. There is no need to feel unsafe on Glock Talk.) Remember, we need to learn from and share with each other!

Here we go...

:shocked: What never ceases to amaze me is the number of women I see at the range who have been given a gun to shoot by another (i.e., boyfriend, husband) and who, for this reason, and others, become frustrated when attempting to load, aim and shoot at targets that their partners have run out to 15 yards, and expect them to shoot in the center (X) with the first magazine. I see women, on a weekly basis, who are using .38 revolvers, 9 mm and 45 ACPs, who become so annoyed, anxious and overwhelmed that they just give up. Why are these women being set-up for failure (by others) when research corroborates the fact that in general, women typically have excellent eye-hand coordiination, and therefore, can become first-rate target shooters?

I can now say the following, with certainty, based on my own first-hand, personal experience. This is what I would like to share with all novice shooters, especailly the women, who read this forum.

1. Rent a 22 LR (I started with a Beretta LR) at your local range.
2. Buy an expensive 22mm loader (they're plastic and will hold down the knob on the magazine while loading). Use this to load the magazine! BTW, other loaders ARE available out there for 9mm and other caliber magazines!
3. Take a basic safety class and/OR get a patient and experienced gun person to go with you to the range, who will demonstrate safe and proper range etiquette, give you encouragement and suggestions (not criticism) and allow YOU to shoot at your own pace.
4. Start with the target at 3 yards. Get comfortable, practice, and when you can shoot 80 to 85% of the rounds in the 9 area and inward on the basic silhouette target, run the target out to 7 yards and do the same.
5. Take your time. Get comfortable with your weapon, the noise and activity around you, and do not get rushed, pushed, or bullied!
6. WHEN you are ready to move to a personal carry or home gun, rent and try out a variety of guns in your caliber of choice. (I started out with a Glock and then moved to a Sig; bought both and now carry a Glock 26.) Make sure the gun fits your hand. Get used to its recoil and don't be afraid of it.
7. BEFORE you buy your first weapon, make sure that you can field-strip and clean it by yourself! Don't expect others to do this for you.
8. Be in control. Realize that learning how to shoot your weapon safely and accurately, will empower you. You will grow in confidence.
9. When, and only when you feel comfortable with your weapon, take a permit class. (Be sure you can shoot well in the 9 and inward circles on the target, at 3, 7 and 15 yards). Realize that you are allowed to qualify with your 22 LR pistol; you don't have to use a 9mm or other gun! Also realize that you will qualify, primarily, at the 3 and 7-yard range, with only a few rounds required at the 15 yard-distance!
10. Buy your own range bag (I got mine on eBay for $25 and it looks like a doctor's bag), safety glasses and ear protectors (muffs) and cleaning kit. (WalMart is a good source.)
11. Learn how to field-strip and clean your own weapon(s). YOU need to do this, not your partner! I use a tackle box to put in all of my own supplies. When cleaning my weapons, I take my time, use a good light (a craft light is wonderful!), put on my safety glasses, and field-strip, oil and and lube my weapons after each time that I shoot. (Remember, IF you take care of your weapons, they will take care of you.) Doing this has allowed me to be very comfortable with my guns AND to feel more in control.
12. Practice, talk to the seasoned professionals at your range, and enjoy your new sport.
-PDW:)

PATRICE
09-27-2009, 18:31
.....

wrencher
09-27-2009, 18:37
Wonderful advice!
My range sponsors a women's range day in the spring, that has now expanded to two days because of all the interest.
We start the women off with 22s, they can work their way up to anything and everything. The range members that come to help bring their own firearms for the women to try out.
By the end of the day, even the women who were scared to death at the beginning, are grinning like fools and asking if there is any more ammo.:cool:

sawgrass
09-27-2009, 18:57
Great Advice!!

I will never understand, when women are handed a large gun to begin with.
I was talking to a lady yesterday, who said "I should show you my ex's Colt 357 mag.
I asked her if she ever shoots it. She said no. She said he talked her into going once
telling her he had made soft reloads.

She said she was eight months pregnant, and shot the first few and just when she was feeling ok about things, he slipped in a full load, the gun hit her in the head,
scared her, and naturally made her angry.

She hasn't shot since. One things for sure, ex's are generally ex's for a reason.

drpdw
09-27-2009, 19:07
IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS...THIS IS A MOST EXCELLENT POST!--Patrice:therapy:

Patrice,
I"m delighted that we've already rec'd a couple of posts to this new thread. It is a very important issue, to be sure. You know, we need to get the word out there to other new shooters, and especially women, about beginning this truly wonderful sport!

It's O.K. to get tired after firing 35 rounds of 9mm because your wrists get tired, and your accuracy veers off a bit. That is perfectly normal! It's also O.K. to have an off day at the range! Just come back again and give it another...get this...shot! :rofl:

Ladies, how do YOU feel about what we're talking about here?
-PDW:)

drpdw
09-27-2009, 19:14
Great Advice!!

I will never understand, when women are handed a large gun to begin with.
I was talking to a lady yesterday, who said "I should show you my ex's Colt 357 mag.
I asked her if she ever shoots it. She said no. She said he talked her into going once
telling her he had made soft reloads.

She said she was eight months pregnant, and shot the first few and just when she was feeling ok about things, he slipped in a full load, the gun hit her in the head,
scared her, and naturally made her angry.

She hasn't shot since. One things for sure, ex's are generally ex's for a reason.

Boy, I've seen this happen a couple of times! How sad! What could possibly be the sadistic motivation behind one human being wanting to frighten another person like this? Other callous behaviors I have witnessed include having a seasoned shooter expect his female partner to quickly load HIS 9mm or 45 ACP magazine...that's what they make those wonderful loaders for! I can use the same Uplula for both 9mm and 45mm. Sweet!

-PDW

drpdw
09-27-2009, 19:16
Wonderful advice!
My range sponsors a women's range day in the spring, that has now expanded to two days because of all the interest.
We start the women off with 22s, they can work their way up to anything and everything. The range members that come to help bring their own firearms for the women to try out.
By the end of the day, even the women who were scared to death at the beginning, are grinning like fools and asking if there is any more ammo.:cool:

This is really great! Let's see what other ranges offer the ladies...Mine has a free range day (NO lane fees, whatsoever, all day long!) every Tuesday! How cool is this?
-PDW:)

sawgrass
09-28-2009, 23:35
The first pistol I bought was a SW 38 special (revolver) 25 years ago.

It is all I had for many years. Eventually I decided I wanted a semi-auto.
I went to my uncle, who said "I doubt if you can rack the slide."
"I've tried and tried to show Mary (his wife), and she can't do it."
He showed my what to do, and yes, the slide was hard to rack.
I was suffering from and elbow injury, and seemingly didn't have the strength.

I went to my local dealer who talked me into a SW 642.
Airweight hammerless revolver. It was EVIL. I hated that gun.
It bucks,kicks, and hurts.
I've since seen him try and sell it to every woman who comes in.
It's simple you know.

Then I met another female who shoots. I told her my story.
She laughed a little and said, "I bet you can rack a slide."

She took me to her range and showed me how to hold the slide
and push on the gun. It was a piece of cake, even injured.
She also introduced me to magazine loaders. These tips
changed my whole gun experience.

mythaeus
09-29-2009, 08:19
Good advice!

You are spot on with most of them. #3 and 4 are the most critical. If you find a good instructor, you can start with a 9mm without any problem. A couple of things I'd like to comment on:

#1. If possible, rent a Walther P22 or a Sig Mosquito, or even a Ruger MKIII. The Neo is way too spacey/racy looking/feeling making transition to a "real" gun less natural.

#7. I wouldn't worry too much about knowing how to field strip before purchasing. Most modern guns are very simple to field strip (except the Ruger MK III, but I wouldn't carry that gun). Don't make not knowing how to FS before purchasing a determining factor since you may not going to be able to rent the exact gun you want to buy. It doesn't hurt to ask the seller to do a field strip demo though. The key is in #11.

The one thing I'd add is to check youtube.com for free videos. One of my absolutely favorites is the Todd Jarrett "How to shoot Pistol" video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yohikhl9_c . Also, watch at least a professional clip on malfunction drills like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64WM9861Xtk . There are plenty of videos on field stripping of all kinds of guns on youtube as well.

Al

steve1988
09-29-2009, 08:36
I just started my girlfriend on a ruger mk ii on sunday. She used to be scared of guns (she even felt nervous in places like Gander Mountain), but now she says she really likes to shoot. I had to restrain myself at times, but I tried to be patient, tell her to take her time, etc. I think I did okay.

drpdw
09-29-2009, 15:03
Steve,
Kudos to you! Yes, allow her to proceed at her own rate. You can be helpful without being prejudiced. Remember, your GF has several issues that she must deal with in addition to the pistol. So allow her to shoot at 3 yards, to establish the eye-hand coordination, and then, move to 7....worked for moi!
I'm now shooting the X most of the time, without trying to hard, at 7 yards with my HGs.

Keep up the good work!
-PDW:)

drpdw
09-29-2009, 15:13
Good advice!

You are spot on with most of them. #3 and 4 are the most critical. If you find a good instructor, you can start with a 9mm without any problem. A couple of things I'd like to comment on:

Mythaeus,
Again, it is not so much the caliber of the weapon, but the comfort level with shooting a HG to begin with. Even with a good instructor, many neophytes are not ready to deal with the recoil of a 9mm and may stop right there...instructor on the sidelines, or not! I am speaking from my own personal experience on this post and others, and from an XY perspective.
With any new task, it is best to do well and then proceed on to a most difficult one, at least, that's what the behavioral psych. people tell us!

#1. If possible, rent a Walther P22 or a Sig Mosquito, or even a Ruger MKIII. The Neo is way too spacey/racy looking/feeling making transition to a "real" gun less natural.

Ah, I disagree! Why NOT have a cool-looking, easy-to-grip and colorful (I have red grips, for fun!) 22mm that easy to hold on to with a small hand and accurate, accurate, accurate...AND moderately-priced? But, whatever feels good in the hand, regardless of the outside appearance, it what one should shoot.

#7. I wouldn't worry too much about knowing how to field strip before purchasing. Most modern guns are very simple to field strip (except the Ruger MK III, but I wouldn't carry that gun). Don't make not knowing how to FS before purchasing a determining factor since you may not going to be able to rent the exact gun you want to buy. It doesn't hurt to ask the seller to do a field strip demo though. The key is in #11.

Here is where I really disagree with you! Would you drive a car full-time without being able to do basic mechanical preventive maintenance on it (i.e., check the oil level and tire pressure? add washer fluid)? If one buys a gun that one is going to shoot, and does not have a second (i.e.,personal valet) to clean the thing post-shooting, then, WHO is going to clean it? If you're going to carry a gun and shoot it, I still say you should be able to field-strip, clean, oil and lube it. Period. Thus, my point in considering the ease of doing this prior to purchasing the HG.

The one thing I'd add is to check youtube.com for free videos. One of my absolutely favorites is the Todd Jarrett "How to shoot Pistol" video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yohikhl9_c . Also, watch at least a professional clip on malfunction drills like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64WM9861Xtk . There are plenty of videos on field stripping of all kinds of guns on youtube as well.

Al

Yep, you are right on target (sorry about that!) here!

drpdw
09-29-2009, 15:17
The first pistol I bought was a SW 38 special (revolver) 25 years ago.

It is all I had for many years. Eventually I decided I wanted a semi-auto.
I went to my uncle, who said "I doubt if you can rack the slide."
"I've tried and tried to show Mary (his wife), and she can't do it."
He showed my what to do, and yes, the slide was hard to rack.
I was suffering from and elbow injury, and seemingly didn't have the strength.

I went to my local dealer who talked me into a SW 642.
Airweight hammerless revolver. It was EVIL. I hated that gun.
It bucks,kicks, and hurts.
I've since seen him try and sell it to every woman who comes in.
It's simple you know.

Then I met another female who shoots. I told her my story.
She laughed a little and said, "I bet you can rack a slide."

She took me to her range and showed me how to hold the slide
and push on the gun. It was a piece of cake, even injured.
She also introduced me to magazine loaders. These tips
changed my whole gun experience.

I had a slide problem with my G26 at first, trying to open the sucker to clean it. The belly technique (demoed by a rather physically-impressive male) doesn't work for me...no belly fat! So, I now rest the butt of the gun on the edge of a table and pull down on the slide! Works like a charm for moi:)
-PDW:)

mythaeus
09-29-2009, 16:08
Mythaeus,
Again, it is not so much the caliber of the weapon, but the comfort level with shooting a HG to begin with. Even with a good instructor, many neophytes are not ready to deal with the recoil of a 9mm and may stop right there...instructor on the sidelines, or not! I am speaking from my own personal experience on this post and others, and from an XY perspective.
With any new task, it is best to do well and then proceed on to a most difficult one, at least, that's what the behavioral psych. people tell us!

#1. If possible, rent a Walther P22 or a Sig Mosquito, or even a Ruger MKIII. The Neo is way too spacey/racy looking/feeling making transition to a "real" gun less natural.

Ah, I disagree! Why NOT have a cool-looking, easy-to-grip and colorful (I have red grips, for fun!) 22mm that easy to hold on to with a small hand and accurate, accurate, accurate...AND moderately-priced? But, whatever feels good in the hand, regardless of the outside appearance, it what one should shoot.

#7. I wouldn't worry too much about knowing how to field strip before purchasing. Most modern guns are very simple to field strip (except the Ruger MK III, but I wouldn't carry that gun). Don't make not knowing how to FS before purchasing a determining factor since you may not going to be able to rent the exact gun you want to buy. It doesn't hurt to ask the seller to do a field strip demo though. The key is in #11.

Here is where I really disagree with you! Would you drive a car full-time without being able to do basic mechanical preventive maintenance on it (i.e., check the oil level and tire pressure? add washer fluid)? If one buys a gun that one is going to shoot, and does not have a second to clean the thing post-shooting, then, WHO is going to clean it? If you're going to carry a gun and shoot it, I still say you should be able to field-strip, clean, oil and lube it. Period. Thus, my point in considering the ease of doing this prior to purchasing the HG.


1. The key point I was making was about transition into "real" gun. All of the other 3 guns I mentioned are also in the reasonably priced range, similarly priced to the Neo. I agree on the comfort. Have you tried the other 3?

2. Your car analogy is off. Unless I misunderstood, the point you argued originally was about purchasing, not yet using that particular gun, and knowing how to field strip that particular gun is a must. The correct car/oil analogy would be knowing exactly where the dipstick is under the hood before you buy. To use that analogy, checking for oil level, knowing how to refill the oil is easy on all cars, just like modern guns, so we ignore it and focus only on the test drive. The need to know how to field strip the gun prior to buying it is not necessary because 99% of the guns on the market today is very easy to field strip. You can conduct a poll and find out how many people actually think it's necessary to know in advance and how many people actually did. Having purchased 25 guns of all variations, I have never considered field stripping a determining factor, inclusive of my first purchase. No argument from me though about the need to know it and due diligent maintenance AFTER you own it.

Al

mythaeus
09-29-2009, 19:14
Sorry I had to run earlier and forgot to address the .22LR vs. 9mm starting out gun. I firmly believe that with proper techniques right off the bat, most women will have no problem handle a full size or compact 9mm.

Now, to disclaim, I am not an instructor (and obviously not a woman); however, I have taught no less than 30 new shooters in the last couple of years and just about 10 of them were women of all sizes and strength. Also, it worths mentioning that my wife goes to the range with me 90% of the time so I do get a lot of feedback from her. If you can give some credence to the small sample size I have experienced, none of the starter had any problem handling the 9mm right off the bat.

I usually spend a good 1/2 hour going over safety outside of the range and teach shooting techniques base on the Todd Jarrett video above. The starter gun is always the Glock 19. After shooting several mags of 9mm, I'd let them go to a 22LR (either a Sig Mosquito or a conversion kit on my G26) for comparison sake. Of course they like the 22LR better, and was more comfortable, but it's doesn't take away from the fact that they all were comfortable with shooting 9mm when they come around to it. A typical first time shooter session with me will also include either a 1911 (.45ACP) and/or a revolver .357mag towards the end. I had one girl at the end shooting .44mags (3 rounds) and handled it perfectly. She loved it so much that she went back for another set of 3 rounds.

I won't argue that it's not more comfortable to start with .22LR , but attribute the comfort of handling higher caliber guns to proper techniques right at the start. In the end for me, while economically it makes sense to practice with .22LR as you start shooting more, I don't think there is anything wrong with starting with a 9mm so long as you have proper instructions/techniques.

Al

wrencher
09-29-2009, 21:54
I would start out any new shooter, male or female, with a 22. Let them get used to proper grip, sight alignment, squeezing the trigger, etc.
Obviously not all shooters need that, some will progress away from the 22 really fast. Some shooters would be fine starting out with bigger guns from the start, my first pistol was a Beretta 92, and I did fine with it. I'm just saying generally, when I take out a new shooter, they're gettin' the 22 first.
As far as which 22, I don't think it matters as long as it fits the shooters hands, and works reliably.
Second comment, while I agree that a shooter must be able to field strip and clean their own firearms, I myself do not consider ease in doing so as part of a purchase decision, and I generally figure out how to do it only after I've bought the pistol.

Gun Shark
09-29-2009, 21:55
that's great advice.

sawgrass
09-30-2009, 00:08
, I myself do not consider ease in doing so as part of a purchase decision

Fortunately, others don't either. I picked up a Ruger Mark III Hunter,
with that pretty fluted barrel really cheap, because the MAN who bought
it, couldn't get it back together. :rofl:

Then, after having it a year, shooting it, letting other women shoot it,
I sold it last week, because NONE of US liked getting pinched by it.

If you were easy with it, it frequently left a blood blister.
It was accurate, but that was about it.

To Al's credit, he did indicate that this one is hard to strip.

However, if I were looking for male instruction, I would go
outside of the women's forum and ask for it.:cool:

PATRICE
09-30-2009, 00:59
.....

drpdw
09-30-2009, 18:27
Mythaeus,

Actually, my car metaphor was simply used as a mechanism to try to present the idea that a person (not a girl or in your case, a boy), should do his/her research and have hands-on experience, prior to purchasing a weapon. That's all.

Let's not perseverate on trivial issues, but get right down to the nitty-gritty here. Also, I am presenting my opinion (as you are), based on my personal (feminine) experience...and I still stand firm on the fact that a HG (whether it be for personal protection, plunking, or serious target shooting) purchase should be made with many factors in mind. (I have already listed my ideas.)

Shall we move on, now, to see what OTHERS (hopefully the women out there!) have to say about getting folk on the range and shooting safely?

To all you WOMEN out there who are reading these posts, and who are either thinking about starting to shoot, or who are already on the range,...let's hear what YOU have to say!

-PDW


1. The key point I was making was about transition into "real" gun. All of the other 3 guns I mentioned are also in the reasonably priced range, similarly priced to the Neo. I agree on the comfort. Have you tried the other 3?

2. Your car analogy is off. Unless I misunderstood, the point you argued originally was about purchasing, not yet using that particular gun, and knowing how to field strip that particular gun is a must. The correct car/oil analogy would be knowing exactly where the dipstick is under the hood before you buy. To use that analogy, checking for oil level, knowing how to refill the oil is easy on all cars, just like modern guns, so we ignore it and focus only on the test drive. The need to know how to field strip the gun prior to buying it is not necessary because 99% of the guns on the market today is very easy to field strip. You can conduct a poll and find out how many people actually think it's necessary to know in advance and how many people actually did. Having purchased 25 guns of all variations, I have never considered field stripping a determining factor, inclusive of my first purchase. No argument from me though about the need to know it and due diligent maintenance AFTER you own it.

Al

PATRICE
09-30-2009, 22:03
.....

mythaeus
09-30-2009, 22:38
[ Hhmmm...Mytheus, Al, dear-heart...this is not an attack, but you're not exactly making friends in this sub-forum in general, and this thread in particular.]


If I'm any judge of human behavior (and that's how I make my living)...I am definitely of the opinion that the natives are getting restless. I think I'm going take my leave, review the settings on my control panel, and try to work my way through a Rosary & Hail Mary or two...before the war-drums start. :whistling: Good night, all.--Patrice
[/COLOR]

Seriously Patrice? I'm not sure why you sensed hostility from me and my posts, but I haven't meant for any of them to be. In any discussion thread, the point is to discuss. I've done just that, no more, no less. A forum is not a positive reinforcement solicitor nor is it an emotional support group. If you prefer gospel truths, may I suggest reading a book? I've made a point to stay on topic and share what I know with the intention to create constructive discussions. If I seriously antagonize the OP or anyone else off topic, do point it out because I don't see it. I haven't made personal attacks, uncalled jabs, flames or otherwise, so I'm completely blindsided by your comment.

The truth of it is that guns and self-defense are serious stuff. To understand them you must recognize options and variation in opinions on a given topic to obtain measured conclusion. Then again, it's only my personal opinion.

Al

mythaeus
09-30-2009, 22:43
Mythaeus,

Let's not perseverate on trivial issues, but get right down to the nitty-gritty here. Also, I am presenting my opinion (as you are), based on my personal (feminine) experience...and I still stand firm on the fact that a HG (whether it be for personal protection, plunking, or serious target shooting) purchase should be made with many factors in mind. (I have already listed my ideas.)



I'm glad you see this as differences in opinions and not personal attacks. Believe me, my stand is no different than yours as bolded.

Al

PATRICE
10-01-2009, 04:39
<sigh> .....
</sigh>

sawgrass
10-01-2009, 07:22
guess in that respect we are lucky). It is my understanding that in some of the other boards (not necessarily firearms...probably, likely, not firearms boards)...one does not gain entrance into the women's subforum, unless they're registered as female;


For the sake of clarity, here's my .02.

The women's forum is typically slow. I wish I knew how to attract more women to the forum. I wonder if women are reading and not posting.
I worry that, if that's the case, and they see us being snarky, and they
see guys correcting or disagreeing with the female OP, it may seem
like business as usual.

I help with female introductory classes. I see alot of mistakes made by
the male instructors. I shoot often, and I see guys becoming frustrated
with their wives, or girlfriends regularly. Once in a while, I will offer my
guns for trial. The last time this happened at the end of it, the guy said
to his wife, "you've now shot more guns than I have." Come to find out
they had a 40 cal Kahr, that they had owned about three weeks. Neither
of them had really shot before, but due to assumed male right, concerning all things not typically feminine, he took charge.

I feel all people are welcome here.

Support is support.

It makes sense to me when men come here and ask something
female related. It also makes sense to me, that if I want
male instruction, I wouldn't look for it in a women's forum.

The OP did a fantastic job in writing a thoughtful, helpful, substantive
post for beginners.

Mrs.Cicero
10-01-2009, 11:48
From a woman's perspective (not that that is relevant to this thread)...

The first HG i fired was my uncle's Beretta 92 (9mm), when I was 13 or 14. It was lots of FUN! I didn't have the opportunity to fire a gun again until I was 26 or 27. Mr.C and I bought a Browning Buckmark .22 in order to learn to shoot a pistol, properly. (He had grown up with rifles and shotguns, but no pistols). Neither of us had ever field-stripped or cleaned one. The manual was quite clear on how to do that, however, and I bet you could find a demo on youTube now if you looked. I do not consider knowing how to fieldstrip or clean any gun a pre-req to buying it. I DO prefer guns that can be fieldstripped without extra tools (i love that i can takedown my ARs with just a loose round)... At this point, as long as it does not include taking apart and putting back together the trigger assembly on a Ruger 10-22, I'm comfortable winging it. For that stupid trigger assembly, I need the video and an afternoon... but I love that little rifle and wouldn't give it up for the world.

I start anyone I'm teaching with my old Buckmark .22. Then the 9mms, then the .45, then the .357, and if they are feeling really brave, they can try the .454 Casull. After that, we go back to the 9mm, which now feels like nothing... and makes everything much easier after that. If there is any flinching, we go back to the .22, and/or do "ball&dummy" drills with the 9mm til the flinch is gone. It also helps to have the shooter hold the gun in stance before they fire it the first time (still unloaded) and simply push the barrel with the same amt of force they will feel as recoil... that takes a certain amt of nervousness away right there.

I've never had problems prepping any new mag, and I've shot 500 rounds in a day before - the only problem occurs if you leave you ammo in the sun and then load the now very hot rounds til your thumb blisters. It is only OLD mags that give me grief... when they are so old the lips open and then they slice your thumb when inserting rounds... If I ever have a student who has difficulty prepping magazines, I will point out the existence of mag loaders, but most of the time (unless arthritis or injury is a factor), I believe it is just lack of experience making one clumsy, which is solved with practice... or it is a brand new mad with a tight spring... which will also lighten up with practice.

Taking a class is a great way to BECOME comfortable with you firearm. That's how I did it. Just a beginners handgun class. If you wait til you are comfortable, you may already have acquired bad habits you will have to break. Don't just assume your BF/SO knows what he is doing. If (s)he's plinked all his/her life and never done any pistol training (particularly tactical pistol, if you are looking to learn to shoot so you can carry), then you will have to unlearn half of what (s)he teaches you.

I wouldn't try to qualify at a permit class with any gun that was not my intended carry gun, since i would not have proven that i am capable of using the carry gun under those conditions. Yes, it's legal to do, but I don't think it contributes to peace of mind when carrying - if you didn't qualify with your carry gun, what are you doing carrying it?

I like what's in points 1,3,5,6,8,10,11,12. I think my disagreements are mostly in detail, not with the actual philosophy. I don't like the assumption that women are not capable of starting with a larger than .22 caliber gun, but I recognize that a lot of women are not COMFORTABLE with them to start... approached the right way, however, it becomes a "hey this is fun - I can DO this - now what ELSE can I do that I didn't think I could?!" experience instead of something that turns one off guns forever. The more women who shoot, the better off we all will be.

Slightly off the topic for the OP, but in relation to later posts in the thread... I appreciate the male input, because often it is what their SOs have experienced, or what they have noticed as instructors, or simply a male perspective that can often shed more light on the original issue simply because while the issue may be a woman's, we don't live in a one-gender world and another perspective may be the missing link needed for a complete explanation... and most of MY issues are caused by the men in my life LOL).

Mrs.Cicero

MedicOni
10-01-2009, 11:49
I have seen this at our ranges out here too. That's why I took my ex out for her first time and had her shoot my Marlin and her dad's old Colt .22 revolver. She wanted to fire one round from my old G19 and that was enough to make her just stick with those until she got comfortable.

sawgrass
10-01-2009, 13:47
MRS. CICERO is right on target in my opinion.

That is nearly exactly how the woman who taught me
started me out.

Buckmark 22
Glock 26
Springfield 1911 45

Then we walked over to the rifle range
and switched toys.

AK 47, M1 Garand

I did flinch with the Springfield, we went back to the Buckmark
and started over. The flinch went away.

I'll make an attempt now using a car analogy.
It worked so well the first time, here.:cool:
As far as what you use to qualify for your CC, I feel that
is a little like driver's ed. You need to practice first,
and then use the car you will likely be driving.

This was several years ago, and I was HOOKED.
If paper were meat, I'd have to buy another freezer!

Mrs. C, want to adopt me?

Sawgrass

Mrs.Cicero
10-01-2009, 14:33
MRS. CICERO is right on target in my opinion.

Mrs. C, want to adopt me?

Sawgrass


LOL - It'd be so nice to have more women to shoot with! I wish my girls were old enough to shoot pistol with me - the oldest is 8 and only started rifle this year, and the youngest I barely trust with an Airsoft.:upeyes:

Mrs.Cicero

drpdw
10-01-2009, 15:00
Al,
Amen.
-PDW


quote=mythaeus;13885838]I'm glad you see this as differences in opinions and not personal attacks. Believe me, my stand is no different than yours as bolded.

Al[/quote]

drpdw
10-01-2009, 15:24
Mrs. C.,
I read with great interest your post and was most intrigued by your own personal journey into the fascinating world and sport of shooting.

Now, I do need to qualify a couple of things, however, RE: my original thread for women starting out on the range.

RE: Starting out with a .22
I am not suggesting that ALL women need to start out with a .22 because they are weak, frightened little creatures, who can't play with the big dogs, so to speak. I am suggesting they start out with a firearm that they can handle and feel comfortable with. If it's a 45 ACP...great! For me, that was not an issue...The suggestions I posted were from my neophyte perspective. For me, in particular, I had never held a handgun prior to last fall (discounting a cap pistol as a kid!), and then tried out a 22LR (Beretta), and a veritable fleet of 9mm, mainly Glocks and Sigs.

Not having ever handled a real gun before, I wanted to get comfortable with the eye-hand coordination thing and practice basic range etiquette and firearm safety measures to which I had never been exposed before. Guess what? I got a red-handled Beretta for Christmas, shot it for a month, and started hitting tight groupings, center target, even at 25 yards...and then decided to progress to a possible carry gun. I selected the Glock 26 and use that as my carry and have it next to my side of the bed at night. Subsequent to that, I have shot a variety of 45s, revolvers and ACPS...and other 9mms. So, I am looking forward to expanding my personal experience on the range and growing with my new sport! I find it one that I can personally challenge myself with and have friendly competition with others. Those others, BTW, so far, have essentially been males, since the local law enforcement guys shoot at the same time I do. Boy, have I learned a lot from them.

RE: Being able to field-strip and maintain one's firearm.

Again, this is my personal opinion...I still feel that if one owns and shoots a firearm s/he needs to be able to maintain it on her/his own...to keep it clean and safe to fire. By doing this, the shooter can feel the difference in the gun if the windage screw needs to be adjusted on the site, for example, or if the foot of the magazine is not seated quite right and needs to be readjusted. I think of my weapons as fine instruments...and I truly enjoy putting on my pink rubber gloves and safety glasses and communing with the three HGs that I shoot every week...on Ladies Day...at the range:)

-PDW:)

From a woman's perspective (not that that is relevant to this thread)...

The first HG i fired was my uncle's Beretta 92 (9mm), when I was 13 or 14. It was lots of FUN! I didn't have the opportunity to fire a gun again until I was 26 or 27. Mr.C and I bought a Browning Buckmark .22 in order to learn to shoot a pistol, properly. (He had grown up with rifles and shotguns, but no pistols). Neither of us had ever field-stripped or cleaned one. The manual was quite clear on how to do that, however, and I bet you could find a demo on youTube now if you looked. I do not consider knowing how to fieldstrip or clean any gun a pre-req to buying it. I DO prefer guns that can be fieldstripped without extra tools (i love that i can takedown my ARs with just a loose round)... At this point, as long as it does not include taking apart and putting back together the trigger assembly on a Ruger 10-22, I'm comfortable winging it. For that stupid trigger assembly, I need the video and an afternoon... but I love that little rifle and wouldn't give it up for the world.

I start anyone I'm teaching with my old Buckmark .22. Then the 9mms, then the .45, then the .357, and if they are feeling really brave, they can try the .454 Casull. After that, we go back to the 9mm, which now feels like nothing... and makes everything much easier after that. If there is any flinching, we go back to the .22, and/or do "ball&dummy" drills with the 9mm til the flinch is gone. It also helps to have the shooter hold the gun in stance before they fire it the first time (still unloaded) and simply push the barrel with the same amt of force they will feel as recoil... that takes a certain amt of nervousness away right there.

I've never had problems prepping any new mag, and I've shot 500 rounds in a day before - the only problem occurs if you leave you ammo in the sun and then load the now very hot rounds til your thumb blisters. It is only OLD mags that give me grief... when they are so old the lips open and then they slice your thumb when inserting rounds... If I ever have a student who has difficulty prepping magazines, I will point out the existence of mag loaders, but most of the time (unless arthritis or injury is a factor), I believe it is just lack of experience making one clumsy, which is solved with practice... or it is a brand new mad with a tight spring... which will also lighten up with practice.

Taking a class is a great way to BECOME comfortable with you firearm. That's how I did it. Just a beginners handgun class. If you wait til you are comfortable, you may already have acquired bad habits you will have to break. Don't just assume your BF/SO knows what he is doing. If (s)he's plinked all his/her life and never done any pistol training (particularly tactical pistol, if you are looking to learn to shoot so you can carry), then you will have to unlearn half of what (s)he teaches you.

I wouldn't try to qualify at a permit class with any gun that was not my intended carry gun, since i would not have proven that i am capable of using the carry gun under those conditions. Yes, it's legal to do, but I don't think it contributes to peace of mind when carrying - if you didn't qualify with your carry gun, what are you doing carrying it?

I like what's in points 1,3,5,6,8,10,11,12. I think my disagreements are mostly in detail, not with the actual philosophy. I don't like the assumption that women are not capable of starting with a larger than .22 caliber gun, but I recognize that a lot of women are not COMFORTABLE with them to start... approached the right way, however, it becomes a "hey this is fun - I can DO this - now what ELSE can I do that I didn't think I could?!" experience instead of something that turns one off guns forever. The more women who shoot, the better off we all will be.

Slightly off the topic for the OP, but in relation to later posts in the thread... I appreciate the male input, because often it is what their SOs have experienced, or what they have noticed as instructors, or simply a male perspective that can often shed more light on the original issue simply because while the issue may be a woman's, we don't live in a one-gender world and another perspective may be the missing link needed for a complete explanation... and most of MY issues are caused by the men in my life LOL).

Mrs.Cicero

MedicOni
10-01-2009, 15:34
Mrs. C.,
I read with great interest your post and was most intrigued by your own personal journey into the fascinating world and sport of shooting.

Now, I do need to qualify a couple of things, however, RE: my original thread for women starting out on the range.

RE: Starting out with a 22mm...

I am not suggesting that ALL women need to start out with a 22mm because they are weak, frightened little creatures, who can't play with the big dogs, so to speak. I am suggesting they start out with a firearm that they can handle and feel comfortable with. If it's a 45 ACP...great! For me, that was not an issue...The suggestions I posted were from my neophyte perspective. For me, in particular, I had never held a handgun prior to last fall (discounting a cap pistol as a kid!), and then tried out a 22LR (Beretta), and a veritable fleet of 9mm, mainly Glocks and Sigs.

Not having ever handled a real gun before, I wanted to get comfortable with the eye-hand coordination thing and practice basic range etiquette and firearm safety measures to which I had never been exposed before. Guess what? I got a red-handled Beretta for Christmas, shot it for a month, and started hitting tight groupings, center target, even at 25 yards...and then decided to progress to a possible carry gun. I selected the Glock 26 and use that as my carry and have it next to my side of the bed at night. Subsequent to that, I have shot a variety of 45s, revolvers and ACPS...and other 9mms. So, I am looking forward to expanding my personal experience on the range and growing with my new sport! I find it one that I can personally challenge myself with and have friendly competition with others. Those others, BTW, so far, have essentially been males, since the local law enforcement guys shoot at the same time I do. Boy, have I learned a lot from them.

RE: Being able to field-strip and maintain one's firearm.

Again, this is my personal opinion...I still feel that if one owns and shoots a firearm s/he needs to be able to maintain it on her/his own...to keep it clean and safe to fire. By doing this, the shooter can feel the difference in the gun if the windage screw needs to be adjusted on the site, for example, or if the foot of the magazine is not seated quite right and needs to be readjusted. I think of my weapons as fine instruments...and I truly enjoy putting on my pink rubber gloves and safety glasses and communing with the three HGs that I shoot every week...on Ladies Day...at the range:)

-PDW:)
Can I get a 22mm? I'd love to play with one of those

sawgrass
10-01-2009, 16:09
Mrs. C.

What rifle is your daughter shooting?

I gave my 11 year old nephew a Winchester 67
this past summer. It's his first. (.22short, .22long, .22long rifle)

You probably know this, but they are single shot
and have to be cocked before they fire. They are very
safe for kids. They are also old and beautiful. I think they have more character than new guns. I sold two more of these to a gentlemen
last week, for his grandsons. My grandpa had one
and it was the first gun I ever shot. I was probably
about 8. They were made from the 1930's to I beleive the 60's. The one with finger grooves is older.

If this is something you might like for one of your
girls, let me know and I'll keep my eyes open.
I love to buy them and clean them up. I have 5,
different configurations, that are keepers.


Sawgrass

Mrs.Cicero
10-01-2009, 16:57
Mrs. C.

What rifle is your daughter shooting?

I gave my 11 year old nephew a Winchester 67
this past summer. It's his first. (.22short, .22long, .22long rifle)

You probably know this, but they are single shot
and have to be cocked before they fire. They are very
safe for kids. They are also old and beautiful. I think they have more character than new guns. I sold two more of these to a gentlemen
last week, for his grandsons. My grandpa had one
and it was the first gun I ever shot. I was probably
about 8. They were made from the 1930's to I beleive the 60's. The one with finger grooves is older.

If this is something you might like for one of your
girls, let me know and I'll keep my eyes open.
I love to buy them and clean them up. I have 5,
different configurations, that are keepers.


Sawgrass

She started with a little pink Cricket (aaack! pink!) but at the jr rifle league at the range, she used whatever they handed her - all single shot bolt action .22 Sometime soon, she will get to try the AR we slapped a .22 conversion kit onto... might as well get friendly with the evil tacticool rifle...:supergrin:
I'll put her on my Ruger in another year or two, when the stock fits her better...

Mrs.C

drpdw
10-01-2009, 20:19
Yeah, wouldn't a 22mmm be a real killer!!!! But, I bet the BOYS out there could handle it!!! :rofl:

I think I've meant to say, all along, .22....oops!
The Doc messed up:)

-PDW:)


Can I get a 22mm? I'd love to play with one of those

sawgrass
10-01-2009, 20:34
Yeah, wouldn't a 22mmm be a real killer!!!! But, I bet the BOYS out there could handle it!!! :rofl:

I think I've meant to say, all along, .22....oops!
The Doc messed up:)

-PDW:)


<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->
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Can I get a 22mm? I'd love to play with one of those
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Well, too bad you didn't say "clip" instead of "magazine" then
then we could really have something to nitpick.

Is nitpick even a real word?

Dr. P, any reasonable adult, who is on this forum and is interested in
guns, should hopefully have the mental capacity to know
what you meant.

One of my Russian students told me last week, that the English
language has too many letters in the alphabet.

I feel the same way about ammo./cal. sizing.

sawgrass
10-01-2009, 20:42
She started with a little pink Cricket (aaack! pink!) but at the jr rifle league at the range, she used whatever they handed her - all single shot bolt action .22 Sometime soon, she will get to try the AR we slapped a .22 conversion kit onto... might as well get friendly with the evil tacticool rifle...:supergrin:
I'll put her on my Ruger in another year or two, when the stock fits her better...

Mrs.C <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
__________________

Mrs. C.

You and Mr. C. are changing the world.
Your young daughters are very fortunate.
Sawgrass

drpdw
10-01-2009, 20:46
Sawgrass,

Let me clarify this for some out there who can't figure out what we're talking about....I don't mean women ON the range, as in the kitchen...(let's leave that for the boys' fantasies....) I mean women who shoot firearms in a controlled environment where one can fire .22, 9mm., and the rest of the calibers known to humankind!

Now, that we've established this...perhaps we can get back to the real reason for posting this thread....asking the women out there their opinions, feelings, fears, successes, challenges...

-PDW:)


Well, too bad you didn't say "clip" instead of "magazine" then
then we could really have something to nitpick.

Is nitpick even a real word?

Dr. P, any reasonable adult, who is on this forum and is interested in
guns, should hopefully have the mental capacity to know
what you meant.

One of my Russian students told me last week, that the English
language has too many letters in the alphabet.

I feel the same way about ammo./cal. sizing.

Mrs.Cicero
10-02-2009, 13:15
Well, I've posted most of my opinions, many repeatedly...

I feel that the more women who are comfortable around guns, the less likely the libridiots will be successful at outlawing them all.

My biggest fear is that one or the other of my kids will morph into a raving anti-gunner as a teenager, due to teenage rebellion and too much exposure to the idiot anti-gun attitudes of certain otherwise beloved members of the family.

Currently, my biggest challenge is not losing my temper with people who think I ought to be shooting a revolver because i am female. I've just run into that too often lately for it to be funny anymore.

This year's goal is to complete training as a rifle instructor for the Appleseed Project w/RWVA. After that, I want to shoot 210 or better on the AQT with every rifle we own...

What are everyone else's goal(s), etc., for the year?

Mrs.C

sawgrass
10-02-2009, 14:52
I'm going to shoot in a winter pistol league that
involves magazine changing, transitioning from
sitting to standing etc...

I haven't decided which caliber I'm going to use.
I suspect 9mm, since that's what I carry.

Outdoors, in Minnesota. Starting to stock up on
hand warmers now. It's open to everyone, the only
other woman I know who shoots in it is
wrencher who invited me to join.

Sawgrass