9mm ammo used by Los Angeles Sheriffs? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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mikegun
10-08-2009, 22:32
Does anyone know what duty ammo the LA Sheriffs office carries in their 9mm duty pistols?

freakshow10mm
10-08-2009, 23:07
My guess is the 124gr version of a Gold Dot, HS, or Ranger. Either of them will do the job.

xcop
10-09-2009, 04:38
Current ammo is Winchester 147gr RA9T

hotpig
10-09-2009, 13:04
Current ammo is Winchester 147gr RA9T

They used to carry the RA9SXT until the RA9T replaced it.

JBP55
10-09-2009, 13:35
A good choice.

mikegun
10-09-2009, 13:37
They seem to have had very good success with these rounds on street shootings in the last month or so, who says 9mm does not work?

RIPPED
10-09-2009, 18:07
RA9T Tampa Police Dept Duty Ammo as well. :)

JBP55
10-09-2009, 18:40
Denham Springs, La. PD as well in G34's.

mikegun
10-11-2009, 18:38
I am azed LASO has the ammount of fatal OIS with this round, it would be one of the last 9mm bullets i would shoot in this cal, just to heavy compared to....

Dandapani
10-11-2009, 18:50
They seem to have had very good success with these rounds on street shootings in the last month or so, who says 9mm does not work?

RA9T Tampa Police Dept Duty Ammo as well. :)

That's UNPOSSIBLE! Every knows that 147 grain in 9mm is crap. Only 115 grain +++P+++ will remotely do the job, and it will take more than 17 rounds to do it......



j/k :tongueout::rofl::wavey:

Philly K-9
10-11-2009, 19:23
In January Philadelphia (PA) Police, my department, will switch to 147 grain Federal HST 9mm ammo. We used to issue 115 grain Federal Classic (9BP). The 147 grain HST did very well in testing. One factor that makes 147 grain a good choice, IMHO, is the fact that it gets cold here in Philly so the bad guys are dressed in several layers of bulky clothes. The heavier bullet will penertrate better than a lighter round. And HST's tend to expand very well.

We also have the option of buying and using a Glock .40 or .45! I choose the Glock 21SF in good old .45 ACP!!!!!! We are issued 230 grain HST .45 and 165 grain HST in the .40's. All very good rounds!

hotpig
10-11-2009, 19:52
I am azed LASO has the ammount of fatal OIS with this round, it would be one of the last 9mm bullets i would shoot in this cal, just to heavy compared to....

Welcome to modern bullet technology. A lot has changed in the last ten years since you have been gone.

mikegun
10-12-2009, 01:14
Welcome to modern bullet technology. A lot has changed in the last ten years since you have been gone.

What can i say you busted me good.....:wavey:

Regular Joe
10-12-2009, 04:51
WHO CARES what LA does? I study, and test, and hand load to superior performance. 12 years ago, I was at a police range with those steel targets that fall when you hit them. I watched as several different guys took their place, and used up to a full magazine to take them all down, with a dull ring on each hit. It came my turn. Using my P-85, loaded with the 124 gr. Hornady XTP over 8 gr. of Blue Dot with a Rem Bench Rest rifle primer, I BLASTED all 12 in just over 3 sec. The other "competitors" eyed me with suspicion. The range officer told me that he didn't want me abusing the targets that way. That was the very last time I gave a hint of a hoot about what the cops think of my loads and my shooting. I am on their side. That is all they need to know about me, and the end of my interest in what they do.

Bullet Man
10-12-2009, 07:26
Ref: Tampa PD, you are correct about the 9mm. They will be changing guns and ammunition in March... They have purchased the M&P 40 and 60,000 rounds of 40 Gold Dot.. The Gold Dot is already there...

ricklee4570
02-05-2010, 05:13
In January Philadelphia (PA) Police, my department, will switch to 147 grain Federal HST 9mm ammo. We used to issue 115 grain Federal Classic (9BP). The 147 grain HST did very well in testing. One factor that makes 147 grain a good choice, IMHO, is the fact that it gets cold here in Philly so the bad guys are dressed in several layers of bulky clothes. The heavier bullet will penertrate better than a lighter round. And HST's tend to expand very well.

We also have the option of buying and using a Glock .40 or .45! I choose the Glock 21SF in good old .45 ACP!!!!!! We are issued 230 grain HST .45 and 165 grain HST in the .40's. All very good rounds!

I heard that they had really good results with the Federal 9BP's, I wonder why they are switching. When something is working, why change?

Philly K-9
02-05-2010, 06:48
Well, from what I understand, the Fed HST line is really good ammo. We are allowed to buy and carry .40's and .45's and both are loaded with HST. Maybe it's just a matter of making the ordering prosess simpler. But what I think really happened is that our Comm. listened to people who know what the're talking about and ordered the switch based upon that recomendition. If so, that's something past Comm. never did.

SIGShooter
02-05-2010, 07:29
WHO CARES what LA does? I study, and test, and hand load to superior performance. 12 years ago, I was at a police range with those steel targets that fall when you hit them. I watched as several different guys took their place, and used up to a full magazine to take them all down, with a dull ring on each hit. It came my turn. Using my P-85, loaded with the 124 gr. Hornady XTP over 8 gr. of Blue Dot with a Rem Bench Rest rifle primer, I BLASTED all 12 in just over 3 sec. The other "competitors" eyed me with suspicion. The range officer told me that he didn't want me abusing the targets that way. That was the very last time I gave a hint of a hoot about what the cops think of my loads and my shooting. I am on their side. That is all they need to know about me, and the end of my interest in what they do.


WTF are you smoking!?!

What does this have to do with anything in regards to what the OP asked?

OP:

I believe it is the 147 Gr. Ranger as well. I just read a thread here a few days ago with a list of departments and what their issued ammo is. I can't remember where I saw it though.

Roering
02-05-2010, 17:36
WHO CARES what LA does? I study, and test, and hand load to superior performance. 12 years ago, I was at a police range with those steel targets that fall when you hit them. I watched as several different guys took their place, and used up to a full magazine to take them all down, with a dull ring on each hit. It came my turn. Using my P-85, loaded with the 124 gr. Hornady XTP over 8 gr. of Blue Dot with a Rem Bench Rest rifle primer, I BLASTED all 12 in just over 3 sec. The other "competitors" eyed me with suspicion. The range officer told me that he didn't want me abusing the targets that way. That was the very last time I gave a hint of a hoot about what the cops think of my loads and my shooting. I am on their side. That is all they need to know about me, and the end of my interest in what they do.

Methinks there is a Mall somewhere missing its Ninja.

As to the OP I don't know for sure but a lot of PD's seem to lean towards the heavier grain hollow points.

CanyonMan
02-05-2010, 18:19
WTF are you smoking!?!

What does this have to do with anything in regards to what the OP asked?

OP:

I believe it is the 147 Gr. Ranger as well. I just read a thread here a few days ago with a list of departments and what their issued ammo is. I can't remember where I saw it though.


:rofl:



CM

remat
02-05-2010, 20:45
That's UNPOSSIBLE! Every knows that 147 grain in 9mm is crap. Only 115 grain +++P+++ will remotely do the job
...

j/k :tongueout::rofl::wavey:

:rofl:
At some point the 147gr haters will have to retract the tired mantra that there are not enough "street shootings" to "prove" that 147gr's work.

remat
02-05-2010, 20:51
WHO CARES what LA does?

...
[serious snipping]
...

That is all they need to know about me, and the end of my interest in what they do.

Ok, but I am pretty sure the OP cares since he asked.

South Fla
02-05-2010, 21:09
WHO CARES what LA does? I study, and test, and hand load to superior performance. 12 years ago, I was at a police range with those steel targets that fall when you hit them. I watched as several different guys took their place, and used up to a full magazine to take them all down, with a dull ring on each hit. It came my turn. Using my P-85, loaded with the 124 gr. Hornady XTP over 8 gr. of Blue Dot with a Rem Bench Rest rifle primer, I BLASTED all 12 in just over 3 sec. The other "competitors" eyed me with suspicion. The range officer told me that he didn't want me abusing the targets that way. That was the very last time I gave a hint of a hoot about what the cops think of my loads and my shooting. I am on their side. That is all they need to know about me, and the end of my interest in what they do.

A Ruger with hand loads. (snicker...)

Methinks there is a Mall somewhere missing its Ninja.

+ 1,000 this.

ggarciatx
02-05-2010, 23:10
WHO CARES what LA does? I study, and test, and hand load to superior performance. 12 years ago, I was at a police range with those steel targets that fall when you hit them. I watched as several different guys took their place, and used up to a full magazine to take them all down, with a dull ring on each hit. It came my turn. Using my P-85, loaded with the 124 gr. Hornady XTP over 8 gr. of Blue Dot with a Rem Bench Rest rifle primer, I BLASTED all 12 in just over 3 sec. The other "competitors" eyed me with suspicion. The range officer told me that he didn't want me abusing the targets that way. That was the very last time I gave a hint of a hoot about what the cops think of my loads and my shooting. I am on their side. That is all they need to know about me, and the end of my interest in what they do.
:upeyes:
If I was a prosecuting attorney and I found your post on this and you were in court on using deadly force, I would be throwing this in your face.

S. Kelly
02-05-2010, 23:26
PhillyK9, how are the .45s going over? Lots of guys going to them?

CanyonMan
02-05-2010, 23:46
hey guys. On the 147gr WWB thread here, we went all over the country about the WWB 147gr JHP.. I like it. I like 147gr'ers for the 9mil.

on this link to WW: http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/RA9T.aspx You will find the Ranger T RA9T series 147gr bullet at 990fps and 320ft lbs.

On this link to WW: http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/usa/jhp/Pages/USA9JHP2.aspx You will find the WWB 147gr JHP athe exact same 990fps, and 320ft lbs.

Now, being familiar with the latter. What is going to be the dif between these to other than $$$$ ?

I mean what will the RA9T bullet do at the same specs, that the WWB at the same specs won't do ?




Edited to say. I answered my own question and if you will continue to read, I also CORRECTED ALL MY TYPO's ERROR's

Hope these were not an inconvenience to any one. I am sorry guys!

Even I make mistakes ! :wow:



CanyonMan

remat
02-06-2010, 14:21
hey guys. On the 147gr WWB thread here, we went all over the country about the WWB 147gr JHP.. I like it. I like 147gr'ers for the 9mil. But , please allow me to show CanyonMans ignorance here for a moment with this.

on this link to WW: http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/RA9T.aspx You will find the Ranger T RA9T series 147gr bullet at 990fps and 320ft lbs.

On this link to WW: http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/usa/jhp/Pages/USA9JHP2.aspx You will find the WWB 147gr JHP athe exact same 990fps, and 320ft lbs.

Now, being familiar with the latter. What is going to be the dif between these to other than $$$$ ?

I mean what will the RA9T bullet do at the same specs, that the WWB at the same specs won't do ?

...

But my question is, in this situation above. What besides $$$ is going to matter ?

BTW, real glad to see a good deal of 147gr guys, (heavy for calber guys).



I assume that the premium ammo is going to used nickel plated brass, use low flash/recoil powder, and be loaded to higher QC standards but I haven't actually seen any. I also assume that the pic is wrong and the WWB is a JHP and not a soft point :)

So, anybody have a supplier for the WWB? I definitely want to try some!

happyguy
02-06-2010, 15:54
hey guys. On the 147gr WWB thread here, we went all over the country about the WWB 147gr JHP.. I like it. I like 147gr'ers for the 9mil. But , please allow me to show CanyonMans ignorance here for a moment with this.

on this link to WW: http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/RA9T.aspx You will find the Ranger T RA9T series 147gr bullet at 990fps and 320ft lbs.

On this link to WW: http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/usa/jhp/Pages/USA9JHP2.aspx You will find the WWB 147gr JHP athe exact same 990fps, and 320ft lbs.

Now, being familiar with the latter. What is going to be the dif between these to other than $$$$ ?

I mean what will the RA9T bullet do at the same specs, that the WWB at the same specs won't do ?

Serious question. I am curious. I find this real interesting (for me at least).

I know the 147gr WWB JHP gets extreme penetration. I am familiar with the " T ' series bullets, as I have carried them in other calibers etc..

But my question is, in this situation above. What besides $$$ is going to matter ?

BTW, real glad to see a good deal of 147gr guys, (heavy for calber guys).




CanyonMan

The WWB JHP is the old subsonic OSM load that was notorious for failing to expand and generally gave 147 grain loads their bad name.

The Ranger ammo expands very reliably, uses low flash powder, has sealed cases, etc.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

CanyonMan
02-06-2010, 23:06
The WWB JHP is the old subsonic OSM load that was notorious for failing to expand and generally gave 147 grain loads their bad name.

The Ranger ammo expands very reliably, uses low flash powder, has sealed cases, etc.

Regards,
Happyguy :)



Well after I posted and re-read my post a couple of times, and thought about it, and rememberd some things, I actually answered my own concerns. It is really quite simple.

The RA9T T series are very quick to expand, "not for me" I need penetration.
After a long talk with a good friend of mine at Winchester ammo plant last weeK about the 147gr WWB JHP, it is a simple thing to understand.

The RA9T T series are not going to penetrate like the WWB JHP because of the serations in the bullet from the pedal on down. The T series is designed to open fast, and the other design is a long standing bullet design for penetration. As My friend at WW and I talked about for almost an hour on the phone. Even the 127gr Ranger +P+ will not penetrate as far and deep as the WWB 147gr sub sonic. The latter, is designed to really penetrate. it was was originally desiged to be used in sniper rifles for the army years ago.

As ART, my good friend at WW explained. This WWB 147gr JHP is a very well designed bullet for penetration and that is my agenda. Penetration. Not rapid expansion that as he said, really lacks in "Real world' senerios not jello and water jug test, but in real flesh and blood. I really had just went brain numb until, as I said, I re-read my own post, and answered my own question.


Thanks for the replies boys. Appreciate it... ;)


EDIT NOTE**** It was designed for sniper rifle, yes. But I originally had a major typo in here about the yardage.. Sorry ! Even I make mistakes ! ;)

CanyonMan

cowboy1964
02-07-2010, 00:33
Do you have any links to hard data showing actual penetration tests for the WWB JHP?

If you favor penetration get the Ranger Bonded versions. The 124 gr +P actually penetrates more than the 147 gr in 4 layer denim and heavy cloth (by over 2").

cowboy1964
02-07-2010, 00:35
Even the 127gr Ranger +P+ will not penetrate as far and deep as the WWB 147gr sub sonic. The latter, is designed to really penetrate. it was was originally desiged to be used in 1,000 yd sniper rifles for the army years ago.

A handgun cartridge for a 1000 yard sniper rifle??? :whistling:

happyguy
02-07-2010, 05:27
A handgun cartridge for a 1000 yard sniper rifle??? :whistling:

Actually it was designed for suppressed submachine guns. Hence the requirement that it be subsonic.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

happyguy
02-07-2010, 05:29
Well after I posted and re-read my post a couple of times, and thought about it, and rememberd some things, I actually answered my own concerns. It is really quite simple.

The RA9T T series are very quick to expand, "not for me" I need penetration.
After a long talk with a good friend of mine at Winchester ammo plant last weeK about the 147gr WWB JHP, it is a simple thing to understand.

The RA9T T series are not going to penetrate like the WWB JHP because of the serations in the bullet from the pedal on down. The T series is designed to open fast, and the other design is a long standing bullet design for penetration. As My friend at WW and I talked about for almost an hour on the phone. Even the 127gr Ranger +P+ will not penetrate as far and deep as the WWB 147gr sub sonic. The latter, is designed to really penetrate. it was was originally desiged to be used in 1,000 yd sniper rifles for the army years ago.

As ART, my good friend at WW explained. This WWB 147gr JHP is a very well designed bullet for penetration and that is my agenda. Penetration. Not rapid expansion that as he said, really lacks in "Real world' senerios not jello and water jug test, but in real flesh and blood. I really had just went brain numb until, as I said, I re-read my own post, and answered my own question.


Thanks for the replies boys. Appreciate it... ;)




CanyonMan

The RA9T generally penetrates 16 inches or so in clothed gelatin. Do you really need more penetration than that? What are you shooting?

When shooting clothed targets the WWB load rarely expands enough to justify the extra cost. You could just go with FMJ and save money IHMO.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

CanyonMan
02-07-2010, 08:32
Do you have any links to hard data showing actual penetration tests for the WWB JHP?

If you favor penetration get the Ranger Bonded versions. The 124 gr +P actually penetrates more than the 147 gr in 4 layer denim and heavy cloth (by over 2").



YES. Until we do are own testing (see below), feel fre to talk to art at WW. He is all the proof I need at the moment. His word and years of experience and "out there doing it" are fine for me, and as I said, we will do this for ourselves on more realistic terms as time allows.... Because water jug test and gelatin test are not a real world senerio. The test that we have not run on "this bullet yet", and will try to do later is the ribcage / hinqurter beef stuffed with organs and a couple of shirts and a coat thrown over it. These have proved to be far closer to the real world than a jello block or water hug with 4 layers of denim which no one in real life wears. ;)

I understand that a bonded bullet out penetrates "usually" a non bonded.
But i prefer a heavy for caliber bullet for more momentem and deeper pen.



CanyonMan

CanyonMan
02-07-2010, 08:36
A handgun cartridge for a 1000 yard sniper rifle??? :whistling:


NO... EDITED***** I really made a major error in the 1,000 yd deal. It WAS designed to be a sniper round, but NOT at that distance. Major typo and eror on my part all. Sorry. ;)

Read this thread that myself and some buds went through a few weeks ago.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1173831

It is a long thread. But if you will read it all and take the time to go through it, it will be interesting info for ya on this WWB 147gr'er.



CanyonMan

CanyonMan
02-07-2010, 08:43
The RA9T generally penetrates 16 inches or so in clothed gelatin. Do you really need more penetration than that? What are you shooting?

When shooting clothed targets the WWB load rarely expands enough to justify the extra cost. You could just go with FMJ and save money IHMO.

Regards,
Happyguy :)


Well, not to be smart. But I am not shooting 4 layers of denim drapped over a gelatin block. ;) These test, although are as we all know 'standard procedure', they are not realistic.


I here your thoughts on the "extra $$$,' but actually I can get the 50 count on these for around 18/25.00 depending on if my particular supplier has them, since they would only be used for SD I do not need a stock pile, but I hear where your comin from.




CM

happyguy
02-07-2010, 08:49
Yep. This is exaxctly what the WWB 147gr JHP was designed for years ago. Sniper work.

CanyonMan

What weapon/cartridge combo did they develop this bullet for?

Regards,
Happyguy :)

CanyonMan
02-07-2010, 08:53
I assume that the premium ammo is going to used nickel plated brass, use low flash/recoil powder, and be loaded to higher QC standards but I haven't actually seen any. I also assume that the pic is wrong and the WWB is a JHP and not a soft point :)

So, anybody have a supplier for the WWB? I definitely want to try some!

Well you have 'assumed correctly on some of this." The WWB 147gr JHP does use a more FS powder than the older loads did for this round. Although they are not nickle plated, that is really not a concern to me. They feed excellent through the G19 of mine which is just a truck gun (my carry is a 45acp when in town). The G19 with this loading (WWB147), is a emergecy/or bobcat/coyote/ or whatever else shooter, or if need be in town carry when in the mood. ;) I switch back and forth so much to under the seat truck guns I can't keep up any way. One day its a 10mm, oneday a 45LC or 44mag, just depends on mood, OR where on the ranch I am going, or if I am driving into the big city. Just another toy. I actually bought this G19 for my wife, and have grown really fond of it myself now, and I don't like 9mm. ;)


Adios




CanyonMan

CanyonMan
02-07-2010, 09:04
What weapon/cartridge combo did they develop this bullet for?

Regards,
Happyguy :)


See: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1173831
Post # 7. Plus as I said, I was also given the low down on this round buy my bud at WW. He confirmed what was said in the above thread and post.

Pretty interesting (to me), He spoke very highly in a long gab session about this plain jane little WWB round. It is not for every one to be sure. But I do require a penetrating fool in whatever I shoot. So for me it is a JHP, but does penetrate like crazy. Since a do not carry a 9mil, and it is a part time truck gun, all is well for me with it out on the ranch for different things, or shoot, (no pun inteded), in town as well....


Got to go boys and take care of some things, and then settle in for the SB game and hope that the COLTS do it right ! ;)


Adios




CanyonMan

happyguy
02-07-2010, 09:15
Good (accurate at the time) info about this load.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf

Edited to add: I can find all kinds of references by reputable sources to this load being developed for our special forces for precision head shots in suppressed MP5's out to 50 yards, but nothing about it being developed as a 1000 yard sniper round.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

CanyonMan
02-07-2010, 09:28
Good (accurate at the time) info about this load.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf

Regards,
Happyguy :)


My last "jump in for a spell got to go go go..

Yes. Your correct this is really a good read. I already went through this article a while back. Some one else on GT gave it out. I appreciate you sending it my way though. I think i will save it to my 'gun stuff' folder.


Thanks again man.


Good shooting




CanyonMan

unit1069
02-07-2010, 14:22
I just can't get too excited over .53 expansion (tops) in controlled gelatin when there are so many other rounds offered today that achieve .60 and above with the minimum 12" penetration.

It looks to me from reading the link that the 147-grain WWB JHP is a reliable penetrator but a sub-par expander.

happyguy
02-07-2010, 14:48
I just can't get too excited over .53 expansion (tops) in controlled gelatin when there are so many other rounds offered today that achieve .60 and above with the minimum 12" penetration.

It looks to me from reading the link that the 147-grain WWB JHP is a reliable penetrator but a sub-par expander.

Actually the RA9T gets better expansion AND penetration than WWB JHP. Not quite sure how it does that but it does.

16 inches and .66 in clothed gel. According to the article I posted you can expect similar in actual use.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Merkavaboy
02-07-2010, 16:46
CanyonMan, I know that you're no dummy, so I'm glad you answered your own questions. The RA9T is worlds apart from the ol' OSM load.

It's all in the design baby, it's all in the design...

:wavey:

CanyonMan
02-07-2010, 16:51
Actually the RA9T gets better expansion AND penetration than WWB JHP. Not quite sure how it does that but it does.

16 inches and .66 in clothed gel. According to the article I posted you can expect similar in actual use.

Regards,
Happyguy :)


Almost "Bowl time here" so real quick... According to my own shooting, (junk stuff so far NOT our side of beef/hind quarter/guts/clothing test yet) and my friend that works at WW as well, Nope. The T won't get the penetration at all the 147wwb does. It ain't going to happen. Even the 127gr P+P 'does not' get the penetration ther wwb147 gets. They are not even designed to get that type of penetration. They, the T's are designed to open faster, thus slowing down pen. The serrations cut on the bullet are "much different" on the T than on the wwb which 'barely' has any, thus this design (wwb) allows for tremendous penetration.


It's no secret I am not even a fan of wet pack/waterjug and news paper testing. But, even in these test, the wwb147 goes throuh 5 paper/water packed milk jugs and through another plain water jug, and keeps on truckin and is not recovered. None of the T's will do this 'that I have seen'.

Again, only using this as another example, because I just am not interested in gelatin and or water jug test. Yes these are fun, no flaming please we've all been through all that stuff already. I just prefer a closer 'real world senerio' as i have probably described on here a cajillion times.. :faint:


any way, fwiw...


Like I said, i answerd my own question and was runnin on one cylinder when i even posted it... :supergrin:


Gotta go.



CanyonMan

happyguy
02-07-2010, 17:02
Well, according to forensic research by the San Diego PD ME the OSM load averages about 13 inches of penetration in real live people.

I have it on good authority that the RA9T does somewhat better.

I'll stick with RA9T and the 135 grain Federal Tactical Bonded load in 9mm. The latter penetrates about the same as RA9T.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

CanyonMan
02-07-2010, 18:08
Well, according to forensic research by the San Diego PD ME the OSM load averages about 13 inches of penetration in real live people.

I have it on good authority that the RA9T does some what better.

I'll stick with RA9T and the 135 grain Federal Tactical Bonded load in 9mm. The latter penetrates about the same as RA9T.

Regards,
Happyguy :)




Hope your right..... ;)


As for all the rest. Hey my friend, just so we all know. I ain't tryin to push this wwb147 on any one. Just like it and think its is a cool little round. Again, I carry a 45acp. :supergrin:


Hey got to get back to the super bowl... ;)



Good shooting.



CanyonMan

CanyonMan
02-08-2010, 15:01
CanyonMan, I know that you're no dummy, so I'm glad you answered your own questions. The RA9T is worlds apart from the ol' OSM load.

It's all in the design baby, it's all in the design...

:wavey:



Well, I don't know about that dummy part.... Ha.
I did answer my own question, and should NEVER have even ask it. Man I was totally one one cylinder when I did that, then ht the submit button. Then thought. That was dumb ! :embarassed:

Your right amigo, you are so right.... ;)


Good shooting


CanyonMan

remat
02-10-2010, 00:41
Well you have 'assumed correctly on some of this."

Partially right? That's pretty good on caliber corner -- I will take it!! :supergrin:

I am, like you, looking for more penetration in a less expensive round that can be used for plinking and also work as camper round. Still haven't found any though, are they readily available or is it hit and miss?

cadillacguns
02-10-2010, 05:31
Philly K9, my hats off to you and your fellow officers, Parts of Philly I've seen, a G-22 w/G-27 BUG, M-4, 12 Ga in the patrol vehicle, and a "Pitbull with Aids" as a working partner, and I would still feel naked out on those streets. Only place worse would be Mogadishu North (Detroit) and Cops there need..............well, everything including the MIANG for patrol.

G-Lock808
02-11-2010, 00:15
Good (accurate at the time) info about this load.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf



How do we know they tested the wwb load? I dont see any reference to wwb or any product number in that article. Is white box the only load they made in 91?

N/Apower
02-11-2010, 01:05
Well after I posted and re-read my post a couple of times, and thought about it, and rememberd some things, I actually answered my own concerns. It is really quite simple.

The RA9T T series are very quick to expand, "not for me" I need penetration. If a JHP is going to expand at all, it will expand when the pressure inside the "cup" is highest, this means it will expand rather soon upon penetration. Physics will not have it any other way.
After a long talk with a good friend of mine at Winchester ammo plant last weeK about the 147gr WWB JHP, it is a simple thing to understand.

The RA9T T series are not going to penetrate like the WWB JHP because of the serations in the bullet from the pedal on down. The T series is designed to open fast, and the other design is a long standing bullet design for penetration. The ranger-T expands to a larger diameter, crushes more tissue, and creates more drag. Thus it will not penetrate as deeply. As My friend at WW and I talked about for almost an hour on the phone. Even the 127gr Ranger +P+ will not penetrate as far and deep as the WWB 147gr sub sonic. The 127gr load has a much lower SD than the 147gr, and again, expansion is proportionately larger. The latter, is designed to really penetrate. it was was originally desiged to be used in 1,000 yd sniper rifles for the army years ago. This is incorrect. There has never been a 9x19 sniper-rifle designed to be used at 1,000 yards.

As ART, my good friend at WW explained. This WWB 147gr JHP is a very well designed bullet for penetration and that is my agenda. Penetration. No arguments, modest expansion and a high SD will get you some penetration. Not rapid expansion You either get rapid expansion, or you don't get expansion. that as he said, really lacks in "Real world' senerios not jello and water jug test, but in real flesh and blood. I really had just went brain numb until, as I said, I re-read my own post, and answered my own question.


Thanks for the replies boys. Appreciate it... ;)




CanyonMan


I'm not sure if this is a joke, or serious, but I answered in red in case it was a serious post.

CanyonMan
02-11-2010, 08:55
I'm not sure if this is a joke, or serious, but I answered in red in case it was a serious post.



Why would it be a JOKE man ?

I all ready know these things you've shared in RED If you read had all the post and other threads concerning this load, you would know that. Thanks any way.... ;)

The 1,000 yd part was a MAJOR typo, and for that I thank ya. I will go back and find all the post I put that in. I was dealing with something else at the time, and somehow put that in.. :wow:

SORRY FOR THE ERROR IN YARDAGE BOYS ! (not yelling). ;)



CanyonMan

CanyonMan
02-11-2010, 09:12
So every one can relax and go back to whatever your doing....



I made a huge stinking ERROR above with the 1,000 yd sniper thing. I truly had my head in my armpit, and my mind on something else, and got it all screwed up.. It was Designed for sniper work originally, as even my friend at WW told me it was. BUT, I confused this round with something else I was dealing with at the time, and got the yardage screwed around .. Sorry boys.



Not easy for me to say ... But, when I screw up, I screw up ! :supergrin:


I went back this morning, (like i have nothing else going on here.. ha) and fixed all my post (i hope), I do not like giving out wrong info:



CanyonMan ( aka My very first mistake man) ;)

Merkavaboy
02-11-2010, 14:04
What weapon/cartridge combo did they develop this bullet for?

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Happyguy, here's what I can tell you about the OSM load as I've pieced together over years of gathering info about this round. Here's some of the info I posted in the thread on the WWB 147JHP that CanyonMan mentioned previously (I'm cutting/pasting so I don't have to re-type everything):

"Or the fact that before the Navy settled on the 147 OSM load, Winchester designed a 140JHP load designated the Type-B (my exemplar is dated 85). This load was delivered to the Crane Naval Weapons Station in Indiana for testing. That weight didn't quite work out, so they upped the weight to 145 grains. This loading didn't expand so Winchester went up two more grains and redesigned the HP in order to obtain some amount of expansion and still have the cycling reliability, accuracy and sound suppression that was desired. This final load was of course designated the Olin Super Match Type-L (L=subsonic)."

And

"I'm not sure exactly when the Win 147JHP was officially adopted by the FBI, but my earliest sample round is dated '87. Also in my collection is one dated '88, one from an earily Win Super-X "Deep Penetration Subsonic" box and a fairly current ('08) USA brand load. All measurements are the same for all 4 loads; cavity depth, cavity diameter at the meplat and length of jacket cuts at the bullet tip. Esentially, they are all the same bullet. I even confirmed this with a friend who's a Winchester Rep in So.Cal. and he contacted his contact at Winchester who confirmed that the bullet used for their USA brand 147JHP load is the same bullet as the original OSM load."

Thus, in reality, the original Winchester 147JHP was a purpose-built bullet and designed for one mission in mind; to afford the SpecOps guys who were using suppressed SMGs (MP5s) long distance accuracy (distances that would be unacceptable to attempt with a suppressed pistol even on a good day) with a bullet that would also have a minimal amount of expansion.

And as I've stated before, the OSM load was really never intended to be a law enforcement or civilian SD bullet.

CanyonMan
02-11-2010, 16:12
yeah, What he said.... :agree:



CanyonMan