Microtech MSAR [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Microtech MSAR


patman
10-15-2009, 18:28
I'm really wanting to buy a piston type rifle that is something new/different.I've been asking about different rifles here lately,I hope it isn't getting annoying.Any way,I ran across the Microtech MSAR on Gunbroker which I had forgotten all about.Have there been any quality issues with these rifles?I wanted to buy one when they came out but I figured I'd wait until they were out for a while.I've also noticed a big difference in prices on Gunbroker.Around $1200.00 to around $1900.00 and some even more.Why might that be?I did a search here on GT and it didn't come up with much.I also did a search on the net for a review,no luck.

ddbtoth
10-15-2009, 19:55
I just bought an E4 from these guys

http://www.specialistgunshop.com/steyr.htm

very pleased with the gun, very accurate rifle. Needs some breaking in, the gun really likes PMAGS, but comes with 5 MSAR 30 round mags. Totally different system that the AR15. Feels very tight, compact, easy to handle. Mag changes are a pain, different manual of arms. I would highly recommend the gun for someone looking for something different.

MedicOni
10-15-2009, 20:05
I shot the MSAR that our local range had for rental (they even had a left hand bolt for it behind the counter). I loved the way it handled and shot. My only complaint is having to pay an extra $200 or so to get that left hand bolt so I would be able to use it.

patman
10-15-2009, 20:11
I think I have convinced myself to buy an E4.I see some of the contents of my safe being sold sometime soon to fund the purchase,as I have several things that haven't seen the light of day for years.More opinions appreciated though.A few pictures maybe?:cool:

Tomac
10-15-2009, 20:19
I think I have convinced myself to buy an E4.I see some of the contents of my safe being sold sometime soon to fund the purchase,as I have several things that haven't seen the light of day for years.More opinions appreciated though.A few pictures maybe?:cool:

One of my STG's w/the new E4 optic rail, Magpul MBUS, Fenix TK11 taclight & Trijicon RX30 Reflex sight:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofTrijiconRX30002.jpg
I love the 42rd mag, 40% more ammo and fewer reloads! :supergrin:
Link to my STG's in a 2-day carbine class:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=43&t=281115
Tomac

patman
10-15-2009, 20:30
Wait a minute,there was no "good looking one".:supergrin:Just kidding.Looks like you had a lot of fun.I just ordered a bunch of parts for a project.I wish I could un-do that.Oh well.I'll come up with some "toy" cash.

12131
10-15-2009, 20:51
I just bought an E4 from these guys

http://www.specialistgunshop.com/steyr.htm

very pleased with the gun, very accurate rifle. Needs some breaking in, the gun really likes PMAGS, but comes with 5 MSAR 30 round mags. Totally different system that the AR15. Feels very tight, compact, easy to handle. Mag changes are a pain, different manual of arms. I would highly recommend the gun for someone looking for something different.
That's some good prices on the MSAR. I've been wanting the E4 (that takes AR mags). The TPD AXR that I've wanted for a long time seems to be a lost cause.

WayaX
10-15-2009, 21:11
Here is my MSAR STG-E4 (the one 12131 is waiting for). It cost me $1500 after taxes and shipping. It came with 5 magazines and takes *most* AR magazines. So far the one magazine that won't fit is the Lancer L5.

I'm very pleased with the gun. At first, it had a lot of FTF issues and was very tight. After about 200 rounds, most of the issues are disappearing. Removing the first magazine took two people. Now I can change them properly. The first 3-4 disassemblies were rough as well. Now I can pull the whole thing apart in less than 20 seconds, and put it back together about as fast.

As soon as I financially recover from the purchase, I'm going to put a reflex sight on it (it has AR irons now, which is something you cannot do on the original without the E4 style rail). Then I'm taking it to a carbine class.

Galleryofguns.com has these on sale until the end of October.

patman
10-15-2009, 21:16
Very nice.I wonder what I can get for a kidney...:supergrin:

patman
10-15-2009, 21:18
Oh,and how does it work out with irons?Seems like a pretty short sight plain.I'd probably put my Aimpoint on it,but some irons aren't a bad idea.Do AR sights work on it?

patman
10-15-2009, 21:32
Since I don't have the cash right now,there is one of these on Gunbroker for $1399.00+$39.00 shipping.The auction ends in about 7 1/2 hours.Lowest price I've seen so far.I wish I could make it mine.

WayaX
10-15-2009, 21:56
Oh,and how does it work out with irons?Seems like a pretty short sight plain.I'd probably put my Aimpoint on it,but some irons aren't a bad idea.Do AR sights work on it?

The sight radius is indeed very short, but it hasn't seemed to affect accuracy much. I'm using a set of MIs on mine. If you have the irons and the optic, make sure the optic is slightly raised so that the folded irons don't get in the way of viewing.

Alaskapopo
10-16-2009, 04:25
For you MSAR owners, how does your rifle group. My friend owns this one and the best it will do is 2.5 inches at 100 yards. I am not impressed with the accuracy at all. I am wondering if he got a lemon.
Pat
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Friends%20guns/Augleftside.jpg

Tomac
10-16-2009, 06:32
For you MSAR owners, how does your rifle group. My friend owns this one and the best it will do is 2.5 inches at 100 yards. I am not impressed with the accuracy at all. I am wondering if he got a lemon.
Pat
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Friends%20guns/Augleftside.jpg

What kind of ammo was he using for the test? IMHO 2.5" groups is perfectly acceptable for a military-style firearm w/the typical bullpup trigger. Now, if we were talking MSAR's DMR STG w/the 24" bbl & match trigger shooting match ammo I'd find 2.5" groups very disappointing.
Is this level of accuracy acceptable?: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=43&t=293525
Tomac

WayaX
10-16-2009, 07:02
Using hand loaded ammunition with Hornaday 55gr bullets, I was able to get 1.5 inches at 100 yards from the bench. However, 2.5" at 100 yards is acceptable to me from a gas-piston semi-automatic with a fairly bad trigger. AR's have spoiled everyone in the accuracy department.

Alaskapopo
10-16-2009, 11:12
What kind of ammo was he using for the test? IMHO 2.5" groups is perfectly acceptable for a military-style firearm w/the typical bullpup trigger. Now, if we were talking MSAR's DMR STG w/the 24" bbl & match trigger shooting match ammo I'd find 2.5" groups very disappointing.
Is this level of accuracy acceptable?: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=43&t=293525
Tomac

With factory ball the best he could get was 4 inches or so. With 75 grain Tap our duty ammo the best it would do was about 3.5 inches. I reloaded him some rounds using 52 grain Sierra Match bullets and 55 grain tap bullets and then the groups shrank to 2.5 inches. I guess I expected more. I used to own a USR myself and it would shoot 1.5 moa.

Pat

Glockdude1
10-16-2009, 11:19
It is a nice rifle. I will wait until the version that uses AR PMAGS to come out.

:supergrin:

Alaskapopo
10-16-2009, 11:24
It is a nice rifle. I will wait until the version that uses AR PMAGS to come out.

:supergrin:

That one is out its called the E4 model. Tomac owns one I believe.
Pat

Alaskapopo
10-16-2009, 17:24
I discovered part of the problem today. I took him out to shoot his rifle and discovered the new rail he had put on was not tightened all the way. I tightened it and put lock tight on it and we will shoot it again tomorrow. I think that was the issue. I expect to see 1.5 to 2 moa groups.
Pat

WayaX
10-16-2009, 17:39
It is a nice rifle. I will wait until the version that uses AR PMAGS to come out.

:supergrin:

You don't have to wait; the STG-E4 is already out. I picked one up about 2 weeks ago. It's pictured in my post above.

Tomac
10-16-2009, 17:41
I discovered part of the problem today. I took him out to shoot his rifle and discovered the new rail he had put on was not tightened all the way. I tightened it and put lock tight on it and we will shoot it again tomorrow. I think that was the issue. I expect to see 1.5 to 2 moa groups.
Pat

Excellent news, that should shrink groups substantially!
Tomac
ETA: I don't own any E4's but my STG's look like E4's due to my replacing the std optic rail w/the E4 optic rail.

C111
10-17-2009, 08:38
I have an stg556 with the factory optic. I've had no problems with it and find it to be very accurate. I went with the optic because it only cost $100 more, but to buy it seperately (if you can find one) was much more expensive.
I've always been an ar guy but I am drawn more and more to this bullpup.

WayaX
10-17-2009, 08:52
I have an stg556 with the factory optic. I've had no problems with it and find it to be very accurate. I went with the optic because it only cost $100 more, but to buy it seperately (if you can find one) was much more expensive.
I've always been an ar guy but I am drawn more and more to this bullpup.

I wasn't a big fan of the optic. It seemed like looking through a toilet paper roll. However, you're right about the price. If the optic suits you, buy it attached to the gun on the STG-556.

sgtlmj
10-17-2009, 21:26
I wasn't a big fan of the optic. It seemed like looking through a toilet paper roll. However, you're right about the price. If the optic suits you, buy it attached to the gun on the STG-556.

Keep in mind that the optic on the STG is a copy of the original AUG A1 optic that Steyr came out with in 1977. The gun was state of the art back then and is still ahead of its time.

The AUG that was put into service in 1977 (that MSAR has successfully copied) has many features that folks are just coming around to. The optic is 1.5x and has backup sights on top. It was set up for a 2-point sling. It uses a short-stroke gas piston. Makes extensive use of polymer, including the mags (PMAG anyone?). Folding vertical grip, and an off-hand hook on the stock.

Amazingly innovative, but what do you expect coming from the Austrians. :supergrin:

the-darkside
10-18-2009, 02:46
Keep in mind that the optic on the STG is a copy of the original AUG A1 optic that Steyr came out with in 1977. The gun was state of the art back then and is still ahead of its time.

The AUG that was put into service in 1977 (that MSAR has successfully copied) has many features that folks are just coming around to. The optic is 1.5x and has backup sights on top. It was set up for a 2-point sling. It uses a short-stroke gas piston. Makes extensive use of polymer, including the mags (PMAG anyone?). Folding vertical grip, and an off-hand hook on the stock.

Amazingly innovative, but what do you expect coming from the Austrians. :supergrin:

agreed. many people who criticize the optiks do forget that this rifle was build in 1977. the original name is btw Stg77 (Sturm gewehr 77) or assault rifle 77 because it was introduced in 1977 to the austrian army. it was build during the cold war area as a weapon for the "standart" drafted infantry men who usually is not a natural born sniper :supergrin: so indeed the optiks with the 3 clycles may not be the best for a well trained marksman (especially beyond 300 m) but it had one big advantage against other optics. it was just incredible easy for someone who is not trained very well and has maybe only a poor or average marksman skill to hit targets very well without long training.
greetings

the-darkside
10-18-2009, 03:25
btw. donīt the sell the Steyr aug Z (civil version) in the US? only clones? because itīs availiable in austria. so if you can expend at least about 2.000 euro (without optics) feel free do buy you a "baby" like this here.

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx192/lamacra/1.jpg

sgtlmj
10-18-2009, 08:13
btw. donīt the sell the Steyr aug Z (civil version) in the US? only clones? because itīs availiable in austria. so if you can expend at least about 2.000 euro (without optics) feel free do buy you a "baby" like this here.

We don't have the AUG Z, we have the AUG A3 SA USA. It was released earlier this year. We had to have a military supplier here make the barrels and receivers so that it can meet our import criteria, but it's all AUG.

I just shot mine in a carbine class yesterday and it ran flawlessly. Danke schön Österreich!


http://gallery.me.com/sgtlmj/100169/IMG_2222/web.jpg?ver=12526268400001
http://gallery.me.com/sgtlmj/100169/IMG_2223/web.jpg?ver=12526268550001

An interesting fact is that the new MSAR E4 stocks that accept AR magazines work on the AUG perfectly. It's a drop-in fit.

http://gallery.me.com/sgtlmj/100169/IMG_5835/web.jpg

WayaX
10-18-2009, 09:23
More people here have the clones because of the price difference. For example the MSAR can be had for as low as $1300 and aside from a few issues here (that MSAR has fixed with great customer service) and there, everyone seems to be pretty happy with them.

A new "Steyr" AUG costs around $2300 and aside from being "original" even when the main parts of the gun are not, offers no significant advantage over the clones. It isn't like there are tons of surplus AUG parts floating around in the event of an import ban or other such legislation. If anything, MSAR has the upper hand because they are more prolific in the US and also made here. In case you don't know, the parts are not interchangeable.

About that optic. It might be "easy" for an untrained person to use, but fast target acquisition with it was very difficult for me. It was also next to impossible to use with both eyes open. Was it great when it came out? Probably. Is it still worth it in a world of Trijicon ACOG's and EoTechs? No.

the-darkside
10-18-2009, 09:36
thanks for the info i didnīt know that. same here the steyr Aug z is based on a A3 with a standart 20 er barrel. but there a some differences between the military and the civilian version (unfortunately not only the missing of the full auto function). the first you will notice is that you canīt change the barrel this easy like in the millitary version... but still fun to shoot. but then again i would love to get my hands only one time on the new Aug A2 commando. (unfortunatley impossible because iīm no longer in the millitary).
greetings

the-darkside
10-18-2009, 10:27
More people here have the clones because of the price difference. For example the MSAR can be had for as low as $1300 and aside from a few issues here (that MSAR has fixed with great customer service) and there, everyone seems to be pretty happy with them.

A new "Steyr" AUG costs around $2300 and aside from being "original" even when the main parts of the gun are not, offers no significant advantage over the clones...

yeah the price is allways a mayor factor. (not so big here because if you are buying a weapon here your pocked will allways be looted anyway. there is a serious difference in price for weapons between the US and here :steamed: ) especially black rifles they usually start at 2.000 euro (about $ 3.000) minimum. for example iīm looking for a ar-15 clone but the onlyl one availibe right now here is the
OA-15 M4 .223Rem

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx192/lamacra/oa_15_m4.jpg

and it starts at 2.200 euro ($ 3,271) and this is really hurts my pocket! :crying:
greetings

Glockdude1
10-18-2009, 11:26
How many AR-15 owners bought a $850 AR, that now have a $3000 AR-15. (sights, scopes, grips, uppers, ACOGS, BUIS, Mags, Slings, lights, rails, Lasers, kitchen sink etc....

:supergrin:

sgtlmj
10-18-2009, 12:27
More people here have the clones because of the price difference. For example the MSAR can be had for as low as $1300 and aside from a few issues here (that MSAR has fixed with great customer service) and there, everyone seems to be pretty happy with them.

A new "Steyr" AUG costs around $2300 and aside from being "original" even when the main parts of the gun are not, offers no significant advantage over the clones. It isn't like there are tons of surplus AUG parts floating around in the event of an import ban or other such legislation. If anything, MSAR has the upper hand because they are more prolific in the US and also made here. In case you don't know, the parts are not interchangeable.

About that optic. It might be "easy" for an untrained person to use, but fast target acquisition with it was very difficult for me. It was also next to impossible to use with both eyes open. Was it great when it came out? Probably. Is it still worth it in a world of Trijicon ACOG's and EoTechs? No.

Actually, going rate for the AUG A3 is around $1,800, and there are lots of spare parts out there. www.pjs-steyraug.com Pete has kept a large inventory of spare parts for a long time, and even kept them coming during the ban years.

MSAR and Steyr are more interchangeable than most people know. See the MSAR stock on my A3 in the last pic? It's a drop-in fit. I've used MSAR hammer packs in my A3 and vice versa. They can fit their barrels to AUGs no problem. Gas system parts will interchange also.

With modern red-dots and good, small variable-power optics, the original AUG scope is outclassed. It is still a decent starter optic though. If MSAR stuck a red dot in that housing somehow, they'd sell a ton.

Alaskapopo
10-18-2009, 19:46
Excellent news, that should shrink groups substantially!
Tomac
ETA: I don't own any E4's but my STG's look like E4's due to my replacing the std optic rail w/the E4 optic rail.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Targets/Sierra.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Targets/Tap.jpg

Its amazing what having the scope rail tightened down will do and having good ammo to shoot. My friend shot these groups with his MSAR. Now he wants me to load him more 52 grain match loads.
Pat

Tomac
10-18-2009, 20:27
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Targets/Sierra.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Targets/Tap.jpg

Its amazing what having the scope rail tightened down will do and having good ammo to shoot. My friend shot these groups with his MSAR. Now he wants me to load him more 52 grain match loads.
Pat


Outstanding! Now that's more like it, glad to hear the inaccuracy culprit was so easy to find & fix! Good job!...
Tomac

the-darkside
10-19-2009, 13:15
With modern red-dots and good, small variable-power optics, the original AUG scope is outclassed. It is still a decent starter optic though. If MSAR stuck a red dot in that housing somehow, they'd sell a ton.

i agree. the original standart optic is outclassed right now. but as you said itīs allways amazing to watch how well a "newbie" preforms on the Aug with this old optics. So for beginners the 3 ring optic is still not a bad choice. the main problem is itīs limited to 300 m (or yards because the difference between both isnīt that much :supergrin: ) but believe me if you are trained on the aug hits up to 400 - max 450 yards (this is really the absolute limmit of this optic) are still possible. of course you will need good weather conditions for this. but then again while drafted man in Austria still have to use the AUG A1 for training (i mean HELLO??? politicians and thanks for ruining the army to spare a few euros) this guys will never see combat in their life so maybe itīs not this big deal. at least the few "professional" soldiers who are deployed somewhere around the globe donīt get the total inferior combat kit.

Alaskapopo
10-19-2009, 13:30
I think gun companies should stick to making guns and leave the optics to the optic companies. When companies include optics on their guns like Sigs red dot they suck. Just my opinion.
Pat

the-darkside
10-19-2009, 13:47
i do agree. fixed optics allways suck. (and if not right now then at least in 5-10 years because of the new inventions). this is why itīs a real mystery for me why for example the newest augs again have a fixed optic. i mean they had the A3s without fixed optics and then they introduce a new better version especially designed for the demands (at least this was told to the public) of the special forces and then they fix the scope again? Ok all i have seen right now is that they definitely used an optic on "the optic" so maybe two different optics are the future but then again why install a fixed one?

sgtlmj
10-19-2009, 18:27
I think gun companies should stick to making guns and leave the optics to the optic companies. When companies include optics on their guns like Sigs red dot they suck. Just my opinion.
Pat

The original AUG optics were made by Swarovski Optik. :whistling:

TED
10-19-2009, 23:28
ABOUT THE TPD AXR...
I have a brand new one that I'm considering selling for vacation funds (don't worry I have more). I need to go visit friends in Europe for x-mas and airfare isn't cheap and the dollar is weak vs the Euro.

So, if any of you want a brand new TPD AXR (which uses mostly Austrian Steyr parts and takes AR mags) PM me.

TED

Alaskapopo
10-19-2009, 23:48
The original AUG optics were made by Swarovski Optik. :whistling:

Yes that is true and it was a great optic for its day. My USR had one. At least Steyr was smart enough to know to outsource the optic.
Pat

WayaX
10-20-2009, 20:39
I think gun companies should stick to making guns and leave the optics to the optic companies. When companies include optics on their guns like Sigs red dot they suck. Just my opinion.
Pat

I agree; however, Sig did outsource their optic...to the lowest bidder in China.

Alaskapopo
10-20-2009, 22:11
My friend finished sighting in his MSAR today. He shot all these groups himself. Sorry for the large pictures. I treated myself to a new digital camera and am still figuring it out.
Pat
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/MSAR%20groups/1stgroup.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/MSAR%20groups/2ndgroup.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/MSAR%20groups/3rdgroup.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/MSAR%20groups/4thgroup.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/MSAR%20groups/5shotgroup.jpg

Alaskapopo
10-21-2009, 00:44
My Friends MSAR.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Friends%20guns/JamesMSAR1.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Friends%20guns/JamesMSAR2.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Optics/Elcannonilluminated.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Optics/elcanilluminated.jpg

AK_Stick
10-21-2009, 00:57
first thing he needs to do, is drop that crappy Elcan POS in the trash, and put a decent optic on.

Alaskapopo
10-21-2009, 01:00
first thing he needs to do, is drop that crappy Elcan POS in the trash, and put a decent optic on.

:rofl:

Good one. I am pretty impressed with the optic. It is like an Acog and an AImpoint in the same sight.
Pat

Matthew Courtney
10-22-2009, 15:35
The MSAR STG bullpup carbies are a solid version of a excellent design concept. The design is inherently quite accurate. The largest drawback is the necessity of the trigger complexity due to the distance between one's trigger figer and the internal hammer. This hurts the weight of the requisite pull, it's smoothess, as well as crispness and overtravel. If they can figure a way to use silicone impregnated parts within the action and better manage the geometry of the ways that the parts of the trigger and action groups interact,, they may be able to improve the trigger pull and have a damn fine carbine.

PlasticGuy
10-22-2009, 16:16
I've got two MSAR STG-556's, both Generation IV's. I've been very impressed so far. They do need a bit of breaking in before they will work with Wolf, but that's the only thing I've found to complain about so far. Reliability with Wolf got pretty good after they had a few hundred rounds through them, and reliability has been excellent with everything else even during the initial break in.

Accuracy is about 1.5 moa with quality ammo, and 2.0-2.5 moa with surplus and Wolf. I shot some 3 shot groups at 300 yards with Wolf 75 grain, and was consistently shooting 6 inch triangles (2 moa). Pretty good for a rifle no longer than an MP5 with an unmagnified Aimpoint. I'm really looking forward to giving one a run with my new 4x ACOG to see if the groups tighten up.

Alaskapopo
10-22-2009, 19:24
I've got two MSAR STG-556's, both Generation IV's. I've been very impressed so far. They do need a bit of breaking in before they will work with Wolf, but that's the only thing I've found to complain about so far. Reliability with Wolf got pretty good after they had a few hundred rounds through them, and reliability has been excellent with everything else even during the initial break in.

Accuracy is about 1.5 moa with quality ammo, and 2.0-2.5 moa with surplus and Wolf. I shot some 3 shot groups at 300 yards with Wolf 75 grain, and was consistently shooting 6 inch triangles (2 moa). Pretty good for a rifle no longer than an MP5 with an unmagnified Aimpoint. I'm really looking forward to giving one a run with my new 4x ACOG to see if the groups tighten up.

My friend and I both refuse to put Wolf ammo in any of our guns so that is a non issue. Why buy a nice gun and then shoot crap ammo that could damage your rifle?
Pat

Matthew Courtney
10-22-2009, 20:20
My friend and I both refuse to put Wolf ammo in any of our guns so that is a non issue. Why buy a nice gun and then shoot crap ammo that could damage your rifle?
Pat

All ammuntion adds to wear and tear on a firearm when you fire it. How one fires and maintains his rifle have more bearing on rifle longevity than ammo selection. While Wolf is far from an optimal chioce in a perfect world, in a perfect world, we would need fewer riflemen. If a man needs to run some Wolf through his rifle to develop or maintain his skill level, performing the additional maintenance required is a better option than letting one's skills devolve until one can no longer make the necessary hits.

A man with a rifle in pristine condition who can not make the requisite hits because he ha not practiced enough is a huge liability, while a man with a well worn, but well maintained and repaired rifle, who can hit anything he can see is a great asset.

Alaskapopo
10-22-2009, 20:48
All ammuntion adds to wear and tear on a firearm when you fire it. How one fires and maintains his rifle have more bearing on rifle longevity than ammo selection. While Wolf is far from an optimal chioce in a perfect world, in a perfect world, we would need fewer riflemen. If a man needs to run some Wolf through his rifle to develop or maintain his skill level, performing the additional maintenance required is a better option than letting one's skills devolve until one can no longer make the necessary hits.

A man with a rifle in pristine condition who can not make the requisite hits because he ha not practiced enough is a huge liability, while a man with a well worn, but well maintained and repaired rifle, who can hit anything he can see is a great asset.

I can reload cheaper than I can buy Wolf and I don't have to worry about broken extractors and ejectors. If one can afford a MSAR he or she can afford to run good ammo through it. The only thing I shoot Wolf in is my AK and SKS's
Pat

joeG26er
10-22-2009, 21:25
how do these perform with heavier bullets?

are 1/7 twist barrels available?

stmcelroy
10-22-2009, 22:30
how do these perform with heavier bullets?

are 1/7 twist barrels available?

The barrels are 1/8 so they should be good with the heavier bullets.

Matthew Courtney
10-23-2009, 05:42
I can reload cheaper than I can buy Wolf and I don't have to worry about broken extractors and ejectors. If one can afford a MSAR he or she can afford to run good ammo through it. The only thing I shoot Wolf in is my AK and SKS's
Pat

Small magnum rifle primers cannot be had in many parts of the coutry at any price. Sometimes the choice is between training with Wolf ammo and not training at all. If you have figured out how to reload without primers, do tell the rest of us.

Alaskapopo
10-23-2009, 09:20
Small magnum rifle primers cannot be had in many parts of the coutry at any price. Sometimes the choice is between training with Wolf ammo and not training at all. If you have figured out how to reload without primers, do tell the rest of us.

Order them from Powder valley.IT took 6 months but I got in 20 k.
Pat

Matthew Courtney
10-23-2009, 09:38
Order them from Powder valley.IT took 6 months but I got in 20 k.
Pat

Talk about irony.... I just recieved 10,000 primers and 16 pounds of powder from powder valley that I had ordered back in March. We almost had to have students dip into our stash of wolf due to a lack of primers, but we didn't. We did have some students shoot Wolf because their employers allow steel cased ammo to be shot through their guns, but not reloads. Their guns, their decision.

We are about to see a huge upsurge in private training in our area due to several LNG facilities coming on line and a big expansion at Northrup Gruman due to new military contracts. DOE contracts out security at the LNG plants, as well as the strategic petroleum reserve and we end up having to train minimum wage security guards how to shoot. Minimum wage security guards are usually harder to train and their turnover rate is quite high. I am probably going to get a license to import ammunition in order to keep a steady supply.

Alaskapopo
10-23-2009, 11:10
Talk about irony.... I just recieved 10,000 primers and 16 pounds of powder from powder valley that I had ordered back in March. We almost had to have students dip into our stash of wolf due to a lack of primers, but we didn't. We did have some students shoot Wolf because their employers allow steel cased ammo to be shot through their guns, but not reloads. Their guns, their decision.

We are about to see a huge upsurge in private training in our area due to several LNG facilities coming on line and a big expansion at Northrup Gruman due to new military contracts. DOE contracts out security at the LNG plants, as well as the strategic petroleum reserve and we end up having to train minimum wage security guards how to shoot. Minimum wage security guards are usually harder to train and their turnover rate is quite high. I am probably going to get a license to import ammunition in order to keep a steady supply.


Primers are starting to show up again slowly. I am really biased against Wolf. Last summer we hosted an officer down and active shooter training and 2 officers from another agency showed up with wolf and they guns would not run. I remeber the days Wolf used Laquor and that stuff siezed guns up solid and was tough to clean them out after using it.
Pat

AK_Stick
10-23-2009, 13:45
:rofl:

Good one. I am pretty impressed with the optic. It is like an Acog and an AImpoint in the same sight.
Pat



They're actually crap. We've pretty much stopped all issue of them because of the chincy ARMS mounts breaking, and the 1-4x zoom dial, busting off. The MGO is pretty much gone anymore.

Good glass, decent optics, just a poor design for a working optic.

sgtlmj
10-23-2009, 16:08
They're actually crap. We've pretty much stopped all issue of them because of the chincy ARMS mounts breaking, and the 1-4x zoom dial, busting off. The MGO is pretty much gone anymore.

Good glass, decent optics, just a poor design for a working optic.

If you have any ARMS mounts, Mark Larue is taking them in trade for equivalent LaRue mounts.

sgtlmj
10-23-2009, 16:11
how do these perform with heavier bullets?

are 1/7 twist barrels available?

MSAR just did a special run of FN cold hammer forged 1/7 bbls. Hopefully they'll get some more in. I'll get one for my A3 if they do. (Yes, Virginia, they can fit their bbls to the Steyr.) :supergrin:

Alaskapopo
10-23-2009, 17:02
They're actually crap. We've pretty much stopped all issue of them because of the chincy ARMS mounts breaking, and the 1-4x zoom dial, busting off. The MGO is pretty much gone anymore.

Good glass, decent optics, just a poor design for a working optic.

Arms mounts do suck but there is no Larue option for these at the time being. The arms work well enough in my friends case. No problems so far with anything breaking. Also special forces issue these and I have not heard any complaints from them. Of course the military is probably treating the gear a lot ruffer than my friend is as a beat cop.
So far my opinion is they are far from crap. In fact you are the first person I have heard from with a negative opinion of this optic.
Pat

Alaskapopo
10-23-2009, 17:03
If you have any ARMS mounts, Mark Larue is taking them in trade for equivalent LaRue mounts.

Not in this case as the mount is integral to the sight.
Pat

AK_Stick
10-23-2009, 18:31
If you have any ARMS mounts, Mark Larue is taking them in trade for equivalent LaRue mounts.


We turned in our ARMS mounted MGO's while I was in Iraq in late 06. I was running a Eotech on the SAW, and our gunners had broken most, if not all of our ELCAN's by that point.


The Elcan is a sweet scope, I'm just not a fan of the way it mounts, or the switch on the side thats prone to busting off, sticking your gun at whatever magnification you were using.

I hope they've fixed the walking zero issue. Wasn't really as much of an issue for the Saw or 240, but would suck on a rifle.

Alaskapopo
10-23-2009, 19:07
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Optics/DaylightNightforce.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Optics/Nightforceillumination.jpg

The red reticle is fine for low light or night shooting but not so good for daylight shooting at speed.
pat

alaskacop556
10-24-2009, 21:26
We turned in our ARMS mounted MGO's while I was in Iraq in late 06. I was running a Eotech on the SAW, and our gunners had broken most, if not all of our ELCAN's by that point.


The Elcan is a sweet scope, I'm just not a fan of the way it mounts, or the switch on the side thats prone to busting off, sticking your gun at whatever magnification you were using.

I hope they've fixed the walking zero issue. Wasn't really as much of an issue for the Saw or 240, but would suck on a rifle.


Sounds like you were issued generation 1 Elcans...they were prone to loosing their zero's and Elcan fixed that. Mine (Alaskapopo's buddie) is a gen 3. I did a little research before deciding on this optic, ironiclly it was a post from a returning servicemen that clinched the deal. He actually posted his SOCOM Elcan on gunbroker and stated that optic was outstanding on his m4 service rifle and the only problem he experienced was the rear BUIS breaking off. I think ANY system will begin to wear and break, especially small moving metal parts like mounts when you are in a combat zone. Larue mounts would be nice but I dont plan on taking the optic off a lot so the ARMS work.:supergrin:

PlasticGuy
10-26-2009, 09:31
I am really biased against Wolf. Last summer we hosted an officer down and active shooter training and 2 officers from another agency showed up with wolf and they guns would not run...
Sounds like they need to buy better rifles, or do a better job of cleaning them and replacing high wear parts on the ones they have.

We are issued Black Hills "red box" as our training ammo at work, and shoot our Colt AR's a lot more than the average police officer. We do still experience malfunctions, simply due to the fact that rifles are mechanical devices (as are their magazines). Shooters running Wolf ammo has become the norm at classes I've taken and taught outside of work, and I haven't noticed a significantly higher ratio of malfunctions on those classes than our training and quals with Black Hills at work. That's not to say that I would choose Wolf as my defensive ammo, but I see no reason to pay an extra $100 per case for for close range practice ammo, or to pass up a $600 overtime shift so I can reload .223 practice ammo.

Alaskapopo
10-26-2009, 11:21
Sounds like they need to buy better rifles, or do a better job of cleaning them and replacing high wear parts on the ones they have.

We are issued Black Hills "red box" as our training ammo at work, and shoot our Colt AR's a lot more than the average police officer. We do still experience malfunctions, simply due to the fact that rifles are mechanical devices (as are their magazines). Shooters running Wolf ammo has become the norm at classes I've taken and taught outside of work, and I haven't noticed a significantly higher ratio of malfunctions on those classes than our training and quals with Black Hills at work. That's not to say that I would choose Wolf as my defensive ammo, but I see no reason to pay an extra $100 per case for for close range practice ammo, or to pass up a $600 overtime shift so I can reload .223 practice ammo.

So they should buy different rifles despite the fact those rifles work fine with brass cased ammo. Sorry but I don't think so. I have seen Wolf cause more malfunctions than any other type of ammo out there in training and in matches and that includes reloads.
Pat

PlasticGuy
10-26-2009, 11:48
So they should buy different rifles despite the fact those rifles work fine with brass cased ammo. Sorry but I don't think so. I have seen Wolf cause more malfunctions than any other type of ammo out there in training and in matches and that includes reloads.
Pat
Yes, that is what I'm saying. I have not seen excessive problems with Wolf ammo in a properly built and maintained AR-15 with a chrome lined barrel.

HOWEVER, it is on the lower end of the power and pressure scale, so problems will typically occur with Wolf before other brands of practice grade ammo. Problems with Wolf are typically an indicator that something is not quite right in your AR-15 and will eventually lead to problems with the rest of your ammo.

Again, I'm not saying that Wolf ammo is the equivalent of Black Hills or Lake City ammo. I'm saying that it is a viable choice in practice and training ammo, and can compete fine within that category.

Alaskapopo
10-26-2009, 12:10
Yes, that is what I'm saying. I have not seen excessive problems with Wolf ammo in a properly built and maintained AR-15 with a chrome lined barrel.

HOWEVER, it is on the lower end of the power and pressure scale, so problems will typically occur with Wolf before other brands of practice grade ammo. Problems with Wolf are typically an indicator that something is not quite right in your AR-15 and will eventually lead to problems with the rest of your ammo.

Again, I'm not saying that Wolf ammo is the equivalent of Black Hills or Lake City ammo. I'm saying that it is a viable choice in practice and training ammo, and can compete fine within that category.

Sorry but your logic is flawed. Buy a new gun for $1200 or buy ammo for $100 more a case. Hmm. Also I have seen Wolf not run in good Tier one guns. Its pretty universal. Wolf has a crap reputation that is well earned.
Pat

PlasticGuy
10-26-2009, 22:49
Sorry but your logic is flawed. Buy a new gun for $1200 or buy ammo for $100 more a case. Hmm. Also I have seen Wolf not run in good Tier one guns. Its pretty universal. Wolf has a crap reputation that is well earned.
Pat
The logic depends on how much you shoot. If you shoot 5,000 rounds of .223 per year, and spending an extra $200 on the rifle allows you to save $100 per case on the ammo, you save $300 in the first year.

Apparently there is something in the Alaska air that makes Wolf not work in your guns. I've fired several thousand rounds of Wolf .223 and seen tens of thousands more fired through other guns at classes and competitions. Match grade AR-15's can be finicky, but I haven't seen problems with Wolf .223 in anything else. I also haven't seen the "universal crap reputation" you talk about. It's actually fairly well respected in shooting schools I've been to, including our state police academy.

Alaskapopo
10-26-2009, 23:24
The logic depends on how much you shoot. If you shoot 5,000 rounds of .223 per year, and spending an extra $200 on the rifle allows you to save $100 per case on the ammo, you save $300 in the first year.

Apparently there is something in the Alaska air that makes Wolf not work in your guns. I've fired several thousand rounds of Wolf .223 and seen tens of thousands more fired through other guns at classes and competitions. Match grade AR-15's can be finicky, but I haven't seen problems with Wolf .223 in anything else. I also haven't seen the "universal crap reputation" you talk about. It's actually fairly well respected in shooting schools I've been to, including our state police academy.
My experience on Wolf is opposite yours. As for your logic I agree it pays to guy a good gun. I prefer Tier one guns myself like Colt and Noveske. However Departments don't always buy good stuff. If their department tier 2 guns that they only shoot a few hundred rounds a year through run fine on brass but not on Wolf then it makes no sense to shoot Wolf. Conversely I refuse to run ammo that creates more wear and tear on my weapon just to save a buck. You pay for it in the long run when you replace your broken extractor and shot out barrel (most of Wolfs bullets are steel jackets with a copper flashing).
Pat

alaskacop556
10-26-2009, 23:48
Sounds like they need to buy better rifles, or do a better job of cleaning them and replacing high wear parts on the ones they have.

We are issued Black Hills "red box" as our training ammo at work, and shoot our Colt AR's a lot more than the average police officer. We do still experience malfunctions, simply due to the fact that rifles are mechanical devices (as are their magazines). Shooters running Wolf ammo has become the norm at classes I've taken and taught outside of work, and I haven't noticed a significantly higher ratio of malfunctions on those classes than our training and quals with Black Hills at work. That's not to say that I would choose Wolf as my defensive ammo, but I see no reason to pay an extra $100 per case for for close range practice ammo, or to pass up a $600 overtime shift so I can reload .223 practice ammo.

I know we are slightly off topic but I need to add to the ammo issue..

Wolf ammo is regarded as some of the worst factory ammo you can use...and not just in .223. The steel cases will wear the extractor a lot quicker (steel on steel vs. brass on steel), the cases are rougher so extraction is tougher which will cause malfunctions.

Your statement about experiencing malfunctions during your qualifications is concerning...a well maintained AR should have vertically 0 malfunctions during a qualification..unless the officer had failed to maintain the rifle. Our department issues DPMS M4's...they were horribly unreliable at first but Alaskapopo managed to fix most of them to near 100% reliability but I can bet if we starting using Wolf not only would the rifles malfunction..a lot but we would be spending a fortune replacing broken parts..whoever your department armor is, I hope they know that saving a buck now may end up cost a lot more in the future...Alaskapopo's reference to the two officers who came to an Active Shooter training illustrates my point..halfway through the first day both their rifles had seized so bad they could not continue and the following day they borrowed some other brand to us..

*ASH*
12-20-2009, 03:41
just ordered my msar tonight from buds for $1088 , could not pass that deal up . buddy of mine already has an e4 and since i dont care for AR rifles im fine with factory ones . besides most of the ar mags are cheap and already read where some are having problems with the e4 . i also got 5 30 round mags for 13 bucks apiece on another site !!!:supergrin::supergrin:


its xmas gift from wife . it will sit next to my ps90 which i love .

beerswimmer
12-20-2009, 05:33
I just got a E4 today. This thing shoots great, 100% after ~300 rounds, and it's soooo tiny!
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq166/beerswimmer/DSC01337.jpg
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq166/beerswimmer/DSC01339.jpg
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq166/beerswimmer/DSC01340.jpg
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq166/beerswimmer/DSC01341.jpg
:cool:

beretta-neo
12-20-2009, 07:40
nice deal!

sgtlmj
12-23-2009, 08:43
I just got a E4 today. This thing shoots great, 100% after ~300 rounds, and it's soooo tiny!

That's the only thing I don't like about my AUG A3, is that the rail extends from the front of the receiver a few inches. Makes it a bit bigger when the bbl is removed.

nozzle13
01-23-2010, 21:17
BeerSwimmer, how much, and where?

I saw one at the range today, before the IDPA match, and went over to see if the fella would let me look at it. Well when I went over he said " you wanna shoot it?"

"Hell yeah:devildance:!" is said, and he gave me a 20 round PMAG to dump. Didn't even want me to replace the ammo!

Now I gotts to get me one!
So help a brother out to find a deal. I looked at Buds but they look like they are the STG556 not the E4. Anyone got the scoop?

raven11
01-23-2010, 21:26
Now I gotts to get me one!
So help a brother out to find a deal. I looked at Buds but they look like they are the STG556 not the E4. Anyone got the scoop?


http://www.ratworxusa.com/ check their auctions first, you can direct buy to your FFL too or pick it up if you live close by


good luck , and welcome to the Bullpup world

LA_357SIG
02-08-2010, 12:44
I like mine. I wish there was a way to shoot it with a sling though.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k252/chrisq_01/100_1628.jpg

heliguy
02-08-2010, 12:49
If you want a suppressor for it, Yankee Hill Machine has the Phantom for $550 or so. Ratworx has the thread adapter that you'll need. Just ordered mine...Now for the 5 mth BATF wait...

Tomac
02-08-2010, 18:38
I like mine. I wish there was a way to shoot it with a sling though.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k252/chrisq_01/100_1628.jpg

Nice pic, thx! What exactly do you mean by "shoot it w/a sling"? Are you talking target sling or simply a sling to support the rifle?
Tomac

LA_357SIG
02-08-2010, 19:09
Nice pic, thx! What exactly do you mean by "shoot it w/a sling"? Are you talking target sling or simply a sling to support the rifle?
Tomac

http://fieldandfelt.com/emailshootingleagues/i/slinguse1.jpg

crazymoose
02-08-2010, 19:43
http://fieldandfelt.com/emailshootingleagues/i/slinguse1.jpg

If you're going for that kind of accuracy-oriented technique, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with this rifle. Don't get me wrong, I love my MSAR, but if I had to shoot at something over ~300 yards away, this is not the rifle I'd choose for the job.

phxfa
02-08-2010, 21:00
If you want a suppressor for it, Yankee Hill Machine has the Phantom for $550 or so. Ratworx has the thread adapter that you'll need. Just ordered mine...Now for the 5 mth BATF wait...
The MSAR and the FN FS2000 do not suppress well, tried them both with a Gemtech G-5 can and they both 'rang my bell' so to speak, something with the breech right next to my ear in combination with the piston system didnt quite work for me IMHO.

LA_357SIG
02-08-2010, 21:06
If you're going for that kind of accuracy-oriented technique, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with this rifle. Don't get me wrong, I love my MSAR, but if I had to shoot at something over ~300 yards away, this is not the rifle I'd choose for the job.

Yeah. I've accepted that. Sucks because I love shooting like this w/ my AR's and Mosin Nagant.:crying:

beerswimmer
02-09-2010, 14:33
BeerSwimmer, how much, and where?

Ratworx for $1350 I think. I also bought a scope cover.


For a sling my wife bought me a Urban ERT single point sling. Works great!

space_weazel
02-10-2010, 02:10
I just now, 10 minutes ago, grabbed one of the black standard(non E4) railed models off GB from Ratworx BIN of $1070 shipped with 5 30round mags. That is what I call a deal and a half. Hell the cheapest I could find them at cost was $1099 in tan with the scope and a 10round mag, then I would have had to pay shipping/dealer 10% on top of that.

I'm about to splode with excitement!@#!
Me
http://musformation.com/pics/excited.jpg

BMH
02-10-2010, 11:49
I went to Ratworxusa.com and got their ‘package deal’. Brand new MSAR STG-556, five magazines, knife, sling, pelican case. With shipping it was about $1400.00.

Morbius
02-12-2010, 21:35
Just got my tracking number for my black 16" non e4 with optic from Buds Gun Shop at 2017 tonight, its going to be a loooonnngg weekend. $1098 with the shipping insurance. There is a gun show this weekend, gonna be shopping for the accessories. Any suggestions for "must haves" have a 5 42 rounders coming from ratworx, and a single point sling attachment that unfortunatly looks to be for the E4 only:crying:, oh well ill probably karma it :supergrin:.

jjslice
02-12-2010, 22:21
picked up my MSAR STG-556 today, the trigger isnt all that bad as everyone makes it out to be.

beretta-neo
02-12-2010, 22:26
I am enjoying mine :)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/msar-eo1.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/msar-eo2.jpg

JBJ16
02-13-2010, 05:40
I see a really short sight radius (pistol size?) for BUIS, in case the primary optic fails. Still a really good, fun rifle. Would'nt mind to have one.:whistling:

beretta-neo
02-13-2010, 06:38
I see a really short sight radius (pistol size?) for BUIS, in case the primary optic fails. Still a really good, fun rifle. Would'nt mind to have one.:whistling:

Well, the backup sights are there in case the optic ever failed. Otherwise, I never really plan to use them. But, I think its better to have them than not.

JBJ16
02-13-2010, 07:07
Well, the backup sights are there in case the optic ever failed. Otherwise, I never really plan to use them. But, I think its better to have them than not.

If it was available on the market, I would prefer a clamped-on-barrel front BUIS. One for each barrel length I own.:supergrin:

CW Mock
02-13-2010, 12:46
I have always wanted an AUG, but now that I have seen these MSAR rifles, I want one of them even more. I'd kill to have an OD green E4 model I could use at work ... decked out with some Troy BUIS, and an Aimpoint or ACOG, and my Surefire light ...

Unfortunately work doesn't allow them. Only AR and M1A types. Kinda sucks, because I really liked the MSAR I shot with the left hand bolt. It was shorter and pointed really quick for me, and now that there is the STANAG compatible E4, it would have been great. Suck for any right handed shooter than needed to use my rifle I guess, LOL

I'd get one if I had money, which I do not. Someday ... :supergrin:

beretta-neo
02-13-2010, 13:36
I'd get one if I had money, which I do not. Someday ... :supergrin:

They are down to less than $1k now for a railed version online