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Young Once
11-05-2009, 07:00
Have any of you had the (mis) fortune of selling your guns to somebody whom you thought you could trust, and promised to transfer license to their names, then all of a sudden disappears, is nowhere to be found and you realize that the license has not been transferred and still appears in your record with FED? What can you do in such a situation?

BrassKnuckle
11-05-2009, 07:50
Insiders at FED will tell you to just file an affidavit of loss so the gun/s would be deleted from your list. The problem there is that you will swear in the affidavit that the gun was actually lost or stolen from you. That could lead to problems later on (perjury) if someone registers said gun and produces a deed of sale that you signed.

jing1117
11-05-2009, 08:04
Yes, this just happened to me. After 9 years that I have sold my .380 we got a visit from the Police looking for the gun, saying why I have not renewed the registration for it. Good enough that I was able to keep the deed of sale for it, which explains everything. Luckily they have dropped the firearm from my name.

(The weird thing though is that they came to our house on a Saturday to inform us and then was asking for everification the next day which is Sunday - makes me beleive that they want more aside from the firearm registration)

productionguy
11-05-2009, 08:07
contact the guy whom you sell the gun,if still you cant locate the guy,go to the nearest police station and file a blotter that the gun is stolen,then affidavit of lost.you will pay php 5,000 fine sa fed for the lost of gun.wanted of lost ang magiging file mo sa fed,if ever he will transfer the gun to his name hindi na pwede.

Clusterbomb
11-05-2009, 19:49
Whether I know the buyer or not, I always insist that we go to a gunstore so that it would arrange the transfer- the buyer fills out all the required application forms and pays the required fees. Then we execute a Deed of Conditional Sale.

In more than one occasion, a buyer comes to me insisting that he pay me in full right then and there so that he can take the FA immediately. They would always say, "Ako na bahala mag-transfer." or something to that effect.

I just say, "Sir, responsibilidad ko pong siguraduhin na nai-transfer po nang maayos ang baril sa pangalan nyo. Kung may alam po kayo sa baril, dapat alam nyong hindi pwede yang gusto nyo."

Allegra
11-05-2009, 21:29
Sakin ok naman yung bumili , a cop and a security officer ng isang LGO
Unfortunately , may 3rd party , who was the bankrobber na kumuha ng baril sa kanya sa banko ( naka blotter naman )
Unfortunately no2, he only informed me 6 years later nung pinadalahan nako ni hepe ng letter about an unregistered combat commander
Punyetang abala

atmarcella
11-06-2009, 01:26
(The weird thing though is that they came to our house on a Saturday to inform us and then was asking for everification the next day which is Sunday - makes me beleive that they want more aside from the firearm registration)

buti nalang hindi sinabi, "wala bang pang merienda dyan?" hehehe.

Wp.22
11-06-2009, 03:09
buti nalang hindi sinabi, "wala bang pang merienda dyan?" hehehe.

Good thing when i sold my USP to a fellow bog ako na nag ayos ng transfer. Abala talaga at unusual pa yung time na pupuntahan ka nasanay yata sa raid na ginagawa pag malalim na ang tulog ng tao.

Young Once
11-06-2009, 05:25
I was actually looking for the guy I sold it to, but he seems to have disappeared from the face of the earth. Actually, in addition to my earlier predicament, there is another one i'm concerned with but not as troubling as the first one. I also sold a gun before to another person who registered the gun in his name. Problem is the serial no of my gun was xxxxb. When the guy transferred it to his name, it became xxxx b (with a space), so the gun still appears in my name. Was also wondering what to do in this situation.

vega
11-06-2009, 16:00
Pero dami pa rin matigas ang ulo na ok lang sila sa "Deed of Sale". Kung walang yellow paper hindi pa tapos ang transfer. I know someone who sold his rifle to his so called friend, kinamatayan na nung kaibigan ko hindi pa na-transfer yung rifle. Balita pa namin NPA yung so-called friend niya.

Young Once
11-06-2009, 16:32
Mea culpa, sir Vega. But of course I had no reason to doubt that my friend would not transfer it to his name. Comes from a well off family type. This is because pag nahuli sa kanya yung baril, he will be charged with illegal possession if not yet licensed in his name.

vega
11-06-2009, 16:40
Mea culpa, sir Vega. But of course I had no reason to doubt that my friend would not transfer it to his name. Comes from a well off family type. This is because pag nahuli sa kanya yung baril, he will be charged with illegal possession if not yet licensed in his name.

And if he uses the FA to protect his life or his love ones life, he can be charge criminally and you for civil liability since technically it is still your firearm, Deed of Sale or not.

There are things that I close my eyes at walang kaibigan or kapatid. I just want the right thing done.

Yung ibang buyer sasabihin sa'yo na fully paid na yung baril kaya kaliwaan. Subukan niyang bumili sa gunstore pagtatawanan lang siya.

BTW - My post above was not directed to you....I'm speaking in general.

Young Once
11-06-2009, 18:24
No offense taken, Sir. Honestly. But insofar as where I find myself in right now, believe me, I now know that there were some shortcomings on my part. As the saying goes, "nasa huli ang pagsisisi." Which is why I'm trying to find the solution to this self made problem. Hopefully, with the guidance from fellow BOGs who may have found themselves in this situation.

glock19mariner
11-07-2009, 10:24
my friend has the same problem, much worst than what you have the person bought it from him tell him that he cant seems to remember who the 3rd person is... he insist on tellin the guy to sign their deed of sale but what the guy said is just used fictitious name instead and my friend didnt agree of course the worst part is he sells all his guns back then 5 to 6 yrs ago all at the same time as packaged deal... we been tryin to get all suggestions and advice from all our connection but no one gives the best answer to this... maybe some one here knows what to do or give him serious advice...

Young Once
11-07-2009, 17:09
Yes, I sure hope that someone can give us the proper guidance.

glock19mariner
11-07-2009, 22:26
another story a lady friend of mine also asking for urgent help 9yrs ago she moved to australia but before that shes tryin to sell her pocket pistol if im not mistaken its a beretta .380cal to her friend but then he hasnt enough money to pay for it so he gave her a couple of thousand pesos and he keep the pistol for safe keeping here is the bad story the guys son went to a province bring along the gun with him and for what he said he was stop at the check point and the cops found the gun in his car... guess what they let him go scott free but they took the gun..
now she is back in the philippines for good what do you think will happen??? any expert giving opinion needed here....
serious matter , serious advice only

jimbullet
11-08-2009, 01:00
You may want to explore the possibility of your friend filing an affidavit of loss with the sale never to have been completed. All parties should agree that this is the best alternative. Your friend's friend wouldnt want to complete the transfer anyway since the gun is now missing and I bet there would be an agreement here for everyone to void that deed of sale.

The other hypothetical question in my mind though is what does the law state when the deed of sale is dated and there is a clause saying that from this date, any responsibility on the firearm rests upon the buyer (i.e. forgot the wordings but in that essence and was meant to cover the seller from any liabilities arising from use or possession of the gun by the buyer), though the transfer has not yet been completed (i.e. yellow paper not yet obtained)?

Can a seller say that there was an agreement and as far as the seller was concerned that he/she thought the process was completed?

The reason for me asking is that my friend had a similar instance where he thought he saw that yellow form signed and all, apparently it was an application in process and was not yet approved by FED as he later found out that the gun is still under his name after 5 years now. Since he has no contact with the buyer, he is relying on that clause sort of indemnifying the seller from any criminal/ civil liability and that the buyer upon signing the deed of sale states that he/ she is responsible from said date.

glock19mariner
11-08-2009, 08:20
my friend has the same problem, much worst than what you have the person bought it from him tell him that he cant seems to remember who the 3rd person is... he insist on tellin the guy to sign their deed of sale but what the guy said is just used fictitious name instead and my friend didnt agree of course the worst part is he sells all his guns back then 5 to 6 yrs ago all at the same time as packaged deal... we been tryin to get all suggestions and advice from all our connection but no one gives the best answer to this... maybe some one here knows what to do or give him serious advice...

in this problem friend of mine knows the buyer very well they are even KUMPARE so he trusted him that nothing will go wrong they he even have the deed of sale ready but his kumpare doesnt sign it yet up to this date..


another story a lady friend of mine also asking for urgent help 9yrs ago she moved to australia but before that shes tryin to sell her pocket pistol if im not mistaken its a beretta .380cal to her friend but then he hasnt enough money to pay for it so he gave her a couple of thousand pesos and he keep the pistol for safe keeping here is the bad story the guys son went to a province bring along the gun with him and for what he said he was stop at the check point and the cops found the gun in his car... guess what they let him go scott free but they took the gun..
now she is back in the philippines for good what do you think will happen??? any expert giving opinion needed here....
serious matter , serious advice only

and with this one she doesnt have anything signed paper whatsoever in her hand...

both friends of mine really worries and really bothered by their problems...
can they take this to court or have them invited with the proper authority to shed lights on this matter?

ans3288
11-08-2009, 16:42
truthfully speaking, these thing will not happen to people WE DONT TRUST, usually nangyayari ito dahil we TRUST the person na ka-deal natin.

i hope ma-resolve mga problema nyo at there are enough problems in one's life :)

Tony_Montana
11-08-2009, 23:46
hay hirap magbenta ng FA ngayon gusto kase lahat bibilin lang unit tapos sila na magpapatransfer ang hirap kausap deed of sale lang daw

Clusterbomb
11-09-2009, 02:47
hay hirap magbenta ng FA ngayon gusto kase lahat bibilin lang unit tapos sila na magpapatransfer ang hirap kausap deed of sale lang daw

The quick answer to these people is, "NO." I found out that if you speak calmly and frankly, it stops them dead in their tracks.

Marami kasi akala nila, makukuha ka nila sa pera. Yung iba naman, hindi gaano alam yung tamang processo ng pag-transfer ng FA.

Some of the things I remember saying from previous transactions:

BUYER 1: "Wala ka bang tiwala sa akin?"

MY ANSWER: "Wala po. Kasi ngayon ko lang naman kayo nakilala."

BUYER 2: "Wala ka bang tiwala sa akin?"

MY ANSWER: "Sir, hindi po dinadaan sa tiwala lang ang transfer kungdi sa tamang proceso."

BUYER 3: "OK lang, may kilalala ako sa loob, ipapabura ko record nito."

MY ANSWER: "Sir, kriminal lang po ang alam kong nag-iisip nang ganyan."

BUYER 4: "Mag-Deed of Sale na lang agad tayo."

MY ANSWER: "Eh paano sir kung hindi ma-approve yung license sa pangalan nyo dahil may police record pala kayo?"

Tony_Montana
11-09-2009, 03:33
The quick answer to these people is, "NO." I found out that if you speak calmly and frankly, it stops them dead in their tracks.

Marami kasi akala nila, makukuha ka nila sa pera. Yung iba naman, hindi gaano alam yung tamang processo ng pag-transfer ng FA.

Some of the things I remember saying from previous transactions:

BUYER 1: "Wala ka bang tiwala sa akin?"

MY ANSWER: "Wala po. Kasi ngayon ko lang naman kayo nakilala."

BUYER 2: "Wala ka bang tiwala sa akin?"

MY ANSWER: "Sir, hindi po dinadaan sa tiwala lang ang transfer kungdi sa tamang proceso."

BUYER 3: "OK lang, may kilalala ako sa loob, ipapabura ko record nito."

MY ANSWER: "Sir, kriminal lang po ang alam kong nag-iisip nang ganyan."

BUYER 4: "Mag-Deed of Sale na lang agad tayo."

MY ANSWER: "Eh paano sir kung hindi ma-approve yung license sa pangalan nyo dahil may police record pala kayo?"
Exactly meron pa sa mga buyers ako na bahala magtransfer deed of sale nalang Pulis ako.Mas lalo na kung gagamitin mo duty gun yan baka lahat ng paputokan mo ako habulin.Yun na nga eh nasa law enforcement ka pala dapat alam mo proseso.
Kahit matagalan na mabenta yung binebenta ko basata ma trransfer lang agad on the spot sabi ko ako na magttransfer balikan nalang nila yung i.d. or mail ko nalang. Another option is mag down sila 50% bibigay ko yung lower parts pag na transfer na yung remaining parts plus 50% balance kukulit.

vega
11-09-2009, 17:19
Exactly meron pa sa mga buyers ako na bahala magtransfer deed of sale nalang Pulis ako.........
Akala kasi ng iba sila ang batas.

asian_glockster
11-11-2009, 20:48
eto po ang nangyari sa akin. noong 2004 po un. may binenta po ako colt 1911. noong nag pa-renew ako ng ibang gamit ko po, na-shock ako at sinabi na WALA po akong baril na nakalisensya sa akin. noong panahon na yun meron pa po akong dalawang gamit na nakalisensya. Nagulat ako. Gunban pa naman po yung isa kong gamit ang may exemption at medjo nakipagtalo ako sa kanila kung bakit ganun. vinerify ulit nila at lumabas na nailipat lahat ng baril ko sa bumili ng colt ko. buti na lang kakilala ko sya at kinabukasan bumalik kami at gumawa sya ng statement na hindi kanya yung dalawang gamit ko. Mantakin po nyo kung nasita ako noon tapos pag vinerify sa FED na walang nakalistang baril sa akin malamang matinding abala po yun.

Young Once
11-12-2009, 03:34
Galing talaga ng FED!

jlkwison
11-12-2009, 20:36
To avoid these kinds of hassles, I hope FED comes up with good system that would be easier for owners to sell their firearms. Right now the proper way to do it is to make a deed of sale, process the transfer and only after the transfer will the new owner be able to take it home (and the new owner should only pay for the whole amount only then). The problem with this system is that it is both inconvenient for both parties. Why ? Well, for the seller, if the buyer backs out for some reason after the transfer of the license, the seller would now be burdened in canceling the other party's license. On the other hand, if the buyer has transferred the firearm to his/her name and for some insane reason that the gun he/she is acquiring becomes unavailable (got lost or something), the buyer would then be burdened with the cancellation of the license and the reimbursement of licensing costs. One suggestion that I have is that FED authorize local police stations to preside over the deal. The seller could get a permit to transport in their local police station and bring the firearm to the station and that is where the buyer can sign the deed of sale and pay the firearm in full and take it home after filing the necessary paper work (In effect the buyer becomes the temporary custodian until the license is approved. Well actually this might be a problem since under the law, you can't take home the firearm until it is duly license under your name. Anyways, the police station can be the temporary custodian until the license is approved and the buyer can pick it up there hmmmm :whistling:).

vega
11-12-2009, 22:01
Pag ba bumili ka n baril sa gunstore may Deed of Sale ba? Hindi ko na matandaan.

Custodian pulis, baka lalong magkaproblema? Alam ko hindi lahat ng pulis.

Clusterbomb
11-12-2009, 23:08
Galing talaga ng FED!

Well what can you expect from an agency that says the Parabellum round measures ".9mm"?

jimbullet
11-12-2009, 23:47
To avoid these kinds of hassles, I hope FED comes up with good system that would be easier for owners to sell their firearms. Right now the proper way to do it is to make a deed of sale, process the transfer and only after the transfer will the new owner be able to take it home (and the new owner should only pay for the whole amount only then). The problem with this system is that it is both inconvenient for both parties. Why ? Well, for the seller, if the buyer backs out for some reason after the transfer of the license, the seller would now be burdened in canceling the other party's license. On the other hand, if the buyer has transferred the firearm to his/her name and for some insane reason that the gun he/she is acquiring becomes unavailable (got lost or something), the buyer would then be burdened with the cancellation of the license and the reimbursement of licensing costs. One suggestion that I have is that FED authorize local police stations to preside over the deal. The seller could get a permit to transport in their local police station and bring the firearm to the station and that is where the buyer can sign the deed of sale and pay the firearm in full and take it home after filing the necessary paper work (In effect the buyer becomes the temporary custodian until the license is approved. Well actually this might be a problem since under the law, you can't take home the firearm until it is duly license under your name. Anyways, the police station can be the temporary custodian until the license is approved and the buyer can pick it up there hmmmm :whistling:).

Appreciate where your coming from on this but the process takes into consideration for FED to assess the qualifications of the purchaser whether he/ she is fit to possess and own a firearm.

That is what slows down the entire process. The system is reliant on assessing the persons qualification and licensing the gun to the individual. while this is a painstaking process, it may be the only process available in the current situation (i.e. loose firearms available, insurgency etc.)

We must however recognise that this is not the most efficient manner. I believe in some first world countries for instance, they have dropped this system and instead adopted a process where the system firstly assess the qualification of the individual and once he/ she is assessed fit, then a license of a specific category is given. This provides a license to the individual who can then purchase any firearm within the restrictions of the license and as many to your hearts desire, which is dependent on how deep your pocket is.

This then creates responsibility for the individual to ensure none of the firearms he possesses goes into the underground. If it gets lost or stolen, this must be reported immediately since in the event that a firearm is used in crime, the database is robust enough that it tracks who was the last owner (oh by the way, it is the responsibility of the seller and buyer to keep records/ provide details to police whenever there is an exchange of ownership, signed by parties). If you dont, then the individual faces harsh sanctions which include revocation of the license. In this situation the revocation of a license is a confiscation of any and all remaining firearm (remember its the individual who is licensed) and the individual may be banned (how long - I dont know but I think it should be prudent to make it 10years at least) from applying for another gun license of any category.

jlkwison
11-13-2009, 01:04
Appreciate where your coming from on this but the process takes into consideration for FED to assess the qualifications of the purchaser whether he/ she is fit to possess and own a firearm.

That is what slows down the entire process. The system is reliant on assessing the persons qualification and licensing the gun to the individual. while this is a painstaking process, it may be the only process available in the current situation (i.e. loose firearms available, insurgency etc.)

We must however recognise that this is not the most efficient manner. I believe in some first world countries for instance, they have dropped this system and instead adopted a process where the system firstly assess the qualification of the individual and once he/ she is assessed fit, then a license of a specific category is given. This provides a license to the individual who can then purchase any firearm within the restrictions of the license and as many to your hearts desire, which is dependent on how deep your pocket is.

This then creates responsibility for the individual to ensure none of the firearms he possesses goes into the underground. If it gets lost or stolen, this must be reported immediately since in the event that a firearm is used in crime, the database is robust enough that it tracks who was the last owner (oh by the way, it is the responsibility of the seller and buyer to keep records/ provide details to police whenever there is an exchange of ownership, signed by parties). If you dont, then the individual faces harsh sanctions which include revocation of the license. In this situation the revocation of a license is a confiscation of any and all remaining firearm (remember its the individual who is licensed) and the individual may be banned (how long - I dont know but I think it should be prudent to make it 10years at least) from applying for another gun license of any category.

Now that is a better system :) I think that is how it is in the US where the individual is assessed if he/she is qualified to own a firearm and if so, he or she can buy any firearm he/she wants as long as it conforms to the rules and regulations of the class specified in his/her license. In that system, the firearm is registered under the one license only unlike here in which each gun has to be licensed. Now I wonder, why is there a one license per gun ruling here in the Philippines ?

Clusterbomb
11-13-2009, 02:59
The problem with this system is that it is both inconvenient for both parties. Why ? Well, for the seller, if the buyer backs out for some reason after the transfer of the license, the seller would now be burdened in canceling the other party's license. On the other hand, if the buyer has transferred the firearm to his/her name and for some insane reason that the gun he/she is acquiring becomes unavailable (got lost or something), the buyer would then be burdened with the cancellation of the license and the reimbursement of licensing costs. :whistling:).

One way to prevent the buyer from backing out is to require a hefty, non-refundable downpayment- at least enough to cover the costs of reversing the license. That would be his penalty. And the document to execute is a Deed of Conditional Sale kasi nga, the seller does not know if the license can be transferred in the first place (esp. if you do not know the buyer). The Deed of Conditional Sale must say that if the buyer changes his mind, he forfeits his downpayment.

If the buyer will not agree to these terms, then NO SALE.

PMMA97
11-13-2009, 03:16
Pag ba bumili ka n baril sa gunstore may Deed of Sale ba? Hindi ko na matandaan.


I once bought a brand new CZ75B at Ultra Systems and they had an actual Contract and Deed of Sale.

Young Once
11-13-2009, 03:27
I think that was before. Now its just the usual applications, etc. Daming forms to fill out.

jimbullet
11-13-2009, 20:46
One way to prevent the buyer from backing out is to require a hefty, non-refundable downpayment- at least enough to cover the costs of reversing the license. That would be his penalty. And the document to execute is a Deed of Conditional Sale kasi nga, the seller does not know if the license can be transferred in the first place (esp. if you do not know the buyer). The Deed of Conditional Sale must say that if the buyer changes his mind, he forfeits his downpayment.

If the buyer will not agree to these terms, then NO SALE.

In a buyers market, wouldnt it be difficult for the seller to impose this?

Young Once
11-14-2009, 01:32
Sirs, going back to the problem at hand, is there no way to have the license canceled by the original seller if the buyer did not transfer the same and the buyer can no longer be found? Or even if transferred, but done wrongly in such a way that the license still appears in the name of the seller? Some have suggested filing an affidavit of loss, but would it be possible to have it canceled on the basis of the deed of sale only? Sorry na lang si buyer, so to speak if the seller's license is canceled and the gun becomes illegal in the buyer's possession?

Clusterbomb
11-15-2009, 18:39
In a buyers market, wouldnt it be difficult for the seller to impose this?

In theory yes. But in our zeal (or desperation) to sell, prudence requires that we still follow the proper steps to avoid finding ourselves in the situation that YoungOnce mentioned. The worry alone is simply not worth it. Do everything required while you as a seller is still in control of the situation.

The way I look at it, its either a buyer or seller's market today depending which particular gun you're looking at. Maybe its a buyer's market for 1911s but maybe a sellers market for Glocks or say, HKs.

vega
11-15-2009, 20:37
.......... Some have suggested filing an affidavit of loss, but would it be possible to have it canceled on the basis of the deed of sale only? Sorry na lang si buyer, so to speak if the seller's license is canceled and the gun becomes illegal in the buyer's possession?
Have you tried asking FED if it is possible?

I'm guessing your Deed of Sale is not notarized. Do you have a copy of his RC? Uso pa ba diyan? I believe one of the requirements for DoS is Residence Certificate no.

jimbullet
11-16-2009, 00:52
Sirs, going back to the problem at hand, is there no way to have the license canceled by the original seller if the buyer did not transfer the same and the buyer can no longer be found? Or even if transferred, but done wrongly in such a way that the license still appears in the name of the seller? Some have suggested filing an affidavit of loss, but would it be possible to have it canceled on the basis of the deed of sale only? Sorry na lang si buyer, so to speak if the seller's license is canceled and the gun becomes illegal in the buyer's possession?

If you are unable to locate the buyer and clearly the buyer has no intention of licensing the gun, then you have, in my opinion, no other option but to file a loss. I dont know if it will be prudent to say that you had intention of selling the gun but did not materialize (?) - just in case a deed of sale turned up at any future date (?) - others may give you better advise in this portion.

Young Once
11-16-2009, 06:57
Well, in my case, the Deed of Sale is notarized (in both instances). Yesterday while at the gun show, I went over to the FED booth and stated my 2 problems. Insofar as the first one was concerned (i.e. transferred, but erroneous serial number [in my case, no space between the last number and the letter, when transferred, there was a space]) the lady said this would be easy to remedy. As for the really untransferred license, she also suggested an affidavit of loss. Will visit FED sometime this week to pursue this.

glock19mariner
11-21-2009, 23:57
i ask a couple of senior cops and some law enforcement people even them they cant tell my friend what to do either, am i smellin something ??? maybe they know each other or what...