45ACP 230FMJ Hardball For Me [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Iceman cHucK
11-07-2009, 18:38
I have been shooting the 45 for about 40 years, started in the ARMY with a 1911, since have had one or two of just about every make and model. I've studied the ballistics of all the jhp and +Pjhp and STILL come to the conclusion that 230fmj hardball is about as good as it gets! +P hollowpoints often have feed and recoil issues. I have found many of my 45s don't feed the +Ps well. The gel tests of expanded hollowpoints of all weights often show 10-12 inches of penetration. This MAY be ok if there are no other obstacles to overcome first. Ball will get thru most non hard barriers with enough to penetrate the vitals. Plus its round nose design gives it the best feed profile for a semiauto, and I currently carry a favorite pistol that only feeds hardball. Some argue that it will overpenetrate a human torso. I'd rather chance that with a round that is 100% reliable and will penetrate than have the latest marketing, untried, majic bullet that is expensive to test and hard to find. The 45 230fmj hardball may not have the highest One Shot stopping capability as some others, but if I must use lethal force I will shoot until the threat is stopped regardless of how many rounds it takes. Chuck Taylor has said in his articles that hardball has worked very well for him many times. U.S. Military use of 45hardball for over 70 years and many wars has shown it to be a very effective manstopper. Just my opinion based on a lifetime of experience!

NEOH212
11-07-2009, 19:11
I have been shooting the 45 for about 40 years, started in the ARMY with a 1911, since have had one or two of just about every make and model. I've studied the ballistics of all the jhp and +Pjhp and STILL come to the conclusion that 230fmj hardball is about as good as it gets! +P hollowpoints often have feed and recoil issues. I have found many of my 45s don't feed the +Ps well. The gel tests of expanded hollowpoints of all weights often show 10-12 inches of penetration. This MAY be ok if there are no other obstacles to overcome first. Ball will get thru most non hard barriers with enough to penetrate the vitals. Plus its round nose design gives it the best feed profile for a semiauto, and I currently carry a favorite pistol that only feeds hardball. Some argue that it will overpenetrate a human torso. I'd rather chance that with a round that is 100% reliable and will penetrate than have the latest marketing, untried, majic bullet that is expensive to test and hard to find. The 45 230fmj hardball may not have the highest One Shot stopping capability as some others, but if I must use lethal force I will shoot until the threat is stopped regardless of how many rounds it takes. Chuck Taylor has said in his articles that hardball has worked very well for him many times. U.S. Military use of 45hardball for over 70 years and many wars has shown it to be a very effective manstopper. Just my opinion based on a lifetime of experience!

Let me first start out by saying that I'm going to remain unbiased at this point and with hold my opinion on this matter. With that said, would you and could you please provide sources of information that support what you are claiming besides Chuck Taylor? I would greatly appreciate it and thanks! :wavey:

DocKWL
11-07-2009, 19:33
I have been shooting the 45 for about 40 years, started in the ARMY with a 1911, since have had one or two of just about every make and model. I've studied the ballistics of all the jhp and +Pjhp and STILL come to the conclusion that 230fmj hardball is about as good as it gets! +P hollowpoints often have feed and recoil issues. I have found many of my 45s don't feed the +Ps well. The gel tests of expanded hollowpoints of all weights often show 10-12 inches of penetration. This MAY be ok if there are no other obstacles to overcome first. Ball will get thru most non hard barriers with enough to penetrate the vitals. Plus its round nose design gives it the best feed profile for a semiauto, and I currently carry a favorite pistol that only feeds hardball. Some argue that it will overpenetrate a human torso. I'd rather chance that with a round that is 100% reliable and will penetrate than have the latest marketing, untried, majic bullet that is expensive to test and hard to find. The 45 230fmj hardball may not have the highest One Shot stopping capability as some others, but if I must use lethal force I will shoot until the threat is stopped regardless of how many rounds it takes. Chuck Taylor has said in his articles that hardball has worked very well for him many times. U.S. Military use of 45hardball for over 70 years and many wars has shown it to be a very effective manstopper. Just my opinion based on a lifetime of experience!

but if I must use lethal force I will shoot until the threat is stopped regardless of how many rounds it takes.

This is the preferred tactic regardless of the caliber or bullet design and generally works well.

Iceman cHucK
11-07-2009, 19:35
I'm just giving my opinion based on all my combined undocumented history of everything I could find out about the 45ACP. Years ago I had the privilage of personal conversation with Jeff Cooper at Gunsite, who advocated the merits. You can think whatever you like and I suggest you do your own research. I've done mine.

481
11-07-2009, 19:49
I'm just giving my opinion based on all my combined undocumented history of everything I could find out about the 45ACP. Years ago I had the privilage of personal conversation with Jeff Cooper at Gunsite, who advocated the merits. You can think whatever you like and I suggest you do your own research. I've done mine.

Hell, if you've found something that works for you and you are happy and comfortable with your choice, then I am happy for you.

Nice to see some folks not losing sleep over such issues for once. Life is too short for such nonsense.

Shoot 'til they drop!

SIGShooter
11-07-2009, 20:22
I use either or...FMJ or JHP.

It doesn't matter to me. 9MM, 45 ACP, 5.56MM...It's a bullet...If it's put in the right place it will work its magic.

fredj338
11-08-2009, 01:52
I'm just giving my opinion based on all my combined undocumented history of everything I could find out about the 45ACP. Years ago I had the privilage of personal conversation with Jeff Cooper at Gunsite, who advocated the merits. You can think whatever you like and I suggest you do your own research. I've done mine.

You should rethink that. Back when Cooper was expounding on the virtues of the 45acp & the 1911, JHP were very unlikely to expand in tissue. Todays JHP are much better & many of the 230grJHP will do far better than 12" of penetration. The 230grRGS bonded & 230grXTP are two that will penetrate very deep because they don't expand to a large diameter. Either would be a better chocie than RNFMJ, which pushes tissue aside & causes smooth puncture wounds. Yes RNFMJ works better in the 45acp than any other caliber, but far from the "best" choice IMO. Still, confidence in ones ammo & pistol is 50% of the fight. It's just not what I carry in my 1911.:wavey:

RMTactical
11-08-2009, 02:19
I want the most effective bullet that works reliably. If a good quality JHP feeds as reliably as an FMJ, I want that. Hardball will do the trick, but when I am fighting for my life, I will take any advantage I can get, however small.

Jayzod
11-08-2009, 06:58
You have to have 100% faith in your weapon of choice and if FMJ does it for you great.

The only worry I would have about using the .45 FMJ would be if I lived in an apartment or subdivision and FMJ was used in my "nightstand gun". I would not want to take the chance of shooting my neighbor or neighbors kids in a defensive situation, if their were other choices in ammunition like JHP. Otherwise I would have no worries about carrying .45 FMJ.

happyguy
11-08-2009, 08:16
Shot placement...shot placement...shot placement.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Jim S.
11-08-2009, 08:51
My Glock 21SF feeds every hollow point I've tried in it. I've tried a lot of them.
When I carried a 1911, which I did for many years, FMJ was used because of the feed issues with most hollow points back then.
Modern hollow points have the penetration needed and if they fail to expand due to heavy clothing clogging up the cavity then it is essentially a FMJ.
Of course the important point is to hit the target and also where you hit the target.
There is nothing wrong with using FMJ, but there is nothing wrong with using a good name brand hollow point either.
There really doesn't need to be an arguement about which is better as they both will do the job. Each has it's positive and negative attributes.

CanyonMan
11-08-2009, 10:07
I have been shooting the 45 for about 40 years, started in the ARMY with a 1911, since have had one or two of just about every make and model. I've studied the ballistics of all the jhp and +Pjhp and STILL come to the conclusion that 230fmj hardball is about as good as it gets! +P hollowpoints often have feed and recoil issues. I have found many of my 45s don't feed the +Ps well. The gel tests of expanded hollowpoints of all weights often show 10-12 inches of penetration. This MAY be ok if there are no other obstacles to overcome first. Ball will get thru most non hard barriers with enough to penetrate the vitals. Plus its round nose design gives it the best feed profile for a semiauto, and I currently carry a favorite pistol that only feeds hardball. Some argue that it will overpenetrate a human torso. I'd rather chance that with a round that is 100% reliable and will penetrate than have the latest marketing, untried, majic bullet that is expensive to test and hard to find. The 45 230fmj hardball may not have the highest One Shot stopping capability as some others, but if I must use lethal force I will shoot until the threat is stopped regardless of how many rounds it takes. Chuck Taylor has said in his articles that hardball has worked very well for him many times. U.S. Military use of 45hardball for over 70 years and many wars has shown it to be a very effective manstopper. Just my opinion based on a lifetime of experience!





Iceman cHucK,


AAAAH ! A refreshing thread 'for me.' ;)

I don't leave home without 'em.

My reason ? The same as yours, and it is in IMO, the best reason a man can have..... "based on a lifetime of experience"


Good shooting amigo.



CanyonMan

PATRICE
11-08-2009, 10:11
.....

Snapper2
11-08-2009, 10:51
Speaking of hardball. Just got 100 of these remington FNEB 230gr. Loaded them up in 45super brass with 8.3gr Powerpistol at 1.230. Very accurate at 15yds. These are shaped more like a gold dot than a TC but are a little shorter and fed ok through my lonewolf barrel. Remington sales them under their umc leadfree ammunition. I havent done any penetration test yet but did crush one in a vise to look for a jacket split. They had together as good as a 230gr hornady fmj fp.

MinervaDoe
11-08-2009, 11:29
The 45 230fmj hardball may not have the highest One Shot stopping capability as some others, but if I must use lethal force I will shoot until the threat is stopped regardless of how many rounds it takes. Chuck Taylor has said in his articles that hardball has worked very well for him many times. U.S. Military use of 45hardball for over 70 years and many wars has shown it to be a very effective manstopper.
I think shot placement is going to be the deciding factor on this. We all throw around our facts and figures, but I think you can carry any .45 ACP round with confidence that it will stop an opponent.

But, if you are not confident that the gun will cycle properly, then you will definitely have a confidence problem. Go with the hardball.

CanyonMan
11-08-2009, 12:33
I think shot placement is going to be the deciding factor on this. We all throw around our facts and figures, but I think you can carry any .45 ACP round with confidence that it will stop an opponent.

But, if you are not confident that the gun will cycle properly, then you will definitely have a confidence problem. Go with the hardball.




Shot placement is the factor 'no matter the ammo'. :whistling:

My guns, 1911's and everything else, feed perfectly with all ammo.

I simply choose the 230FMJ in the 45acp. ;)



Stay safe



CanyonMan

ThreadKiller
11-08-2009, 12:49
I'll go with jhp's. (Speer GD 230's) They feed reliably in my CQB and are accurate. If they don't expand, so what? They will behave like FMJ's in that case.

What have I lost?

CanyonMan
11-08-2009, 14:08
I'll go with jhp's. (Speer GD 230's) They feed reliably in my CQB and are accurate. If they don't expand, so what? They will behave like FMJ's in that case.

What have I lost?




Penetration from a glogged JHP ! ;)



CM

Mwinter
11-08-2009, 14:46
All the large LE agency significant end-use I've seen with the .45acp in the last 10 years has been with some sort of JHP.

There are several talented large and small LE agencies that general-issue a .45acp. Each them, from the FBI and TX DPS, down to the 70-officer nearby agency that still issues 1911s, uses/used a modern JHP. Golden Saber, Ranger SXT, Gold Dot, Federal Bonded Tactical and HST.....lots of brands/weights to choose from.

If it was so hard to get a JHP to feed, then I think you'd see a lot more agencies saddling their guys wth FMJ.

I also noticed OP had '+p' reiterated several times....a lot of the successful modern .45acp JHPs are standard pressure.

Iceman cHucK
11-08-2009, 16:41
Threadkiller asked "what have I lost?" My problem with jhp is not with plugged rounds acting like hardball, but with expanded rounds not giving enough penetration!
Good to hear from ya CandyMan, uh I mean CanyonMan:supergrin:

CanyonMan
11-08-2009, 17:54
Threadkiller asked "what have I lost?" My problem with jhp is not with plugged rounds acting like hardball, but with expanded rounds not giving enough penetration!Good to hear from ya CandyMan, uh I mean CanyonMan:supergrin:




Yes sir. Either way ya go, loss of pen is loss of pen. Amen. ;)


Stay Safe



CM

MTS532
11-08-2009, 18:17
The 45 230fmj hardball may not have the highest One Shot stopping capability as some others, but if I must use lethal force I will shoot until the threat is stopped regardless of how many rounds it takes.

Adopting this one tactic and mindset would effectively end caliber wars.

Tarowah
11-08-2009, 18:28
Chances are that is you are shooting through something to kill a bad guy you could be getting away from the bad guy without shotting, I dont forsee a need to shoot through a car door or a wall so Hardball is range ammo for me, +1 for JHP.

I want the 45 ACP to do its job via the 230Gr bullet transfering all of its energy when it hits flesh and take the fight out of the bad guy, +1 for JHP.

If I miss the bad guy penetration is the last thing I want so again +1 to the JHP.

If I find myself in a war or perhaps in a SHTF end of the world fight for my life I will use ball ammo without a second thought, for me a JHP round is going to do everything I ask it too otherwise, if the bad guy is holed up behind something my JHPs wont go through I will keep my cover and let him blast away and save my rounds for a clean body shot, just my 2 cents.

ThreadKiller
11-08-2009, 18:36
Penetration from a glogged JHP ! ;)



CM

Now I'm confused. If a JHP DOES NOT expand, for whatever reason, doesn't it behave like a FMJ as it will not dump energy into body tissue as an expanding JHP would? So, if it's not dumping energy by expanding, it's going to plow on like a FMJ due to its similar weight and sectional density?

dosei
11-08-2009, 18:47
The military uses FMJ for one reason and one reason only, they have to. They cannot use any type of expanding ammunition, thus they are stuck with FMJ's. The vast majority of the agencies and departments that are allowed to use expanding ammunition have chosen to do so.

That said, I do fully support the decision to use only what you trust.

CanyonMan
11-08-2009, 19:34
Now I'm confused. If a JHP DOES NOT expand, for whatever reason, doesn't it behave like a FMJ as it will not dump energy into body tissue as an expanding JHP would? So, if it's not dumping energy by expanding, it's going to plow on like a FMJ due to its similar weight and sectional density?


Well sir, this is the mind set of most people. Unfortunately it is the wrong mind set brought on by internet ramblings, and gun rag mags, instead of 'first hand experience'.

It is not, "while clogged" going to "plow through" as a FMJ would, because it "is clogged," it slows down, therefore it loses it's penatration capibilities. Again, it slows down. As where the FMJ continues unrestricted.

That is the short answer...... ;)



Good shooting.



CanyonMan

9 Micky Mouse
11-08-2009, 19:54
Hardball is fine, if I carried a .45acp I would go with 185gr hollow point

frankmako
11-08-2009, 20:03
i like fmj ammo. carry it in my 380 acp and my 32. sometimes in my 45 acp and 9mm. nothing wrong with carring it and using it. feeds good and works well.

CanyonMan
11-08-2009, 20:05
Chances are that is you are shooting through something to kill a bad guy you could be getting away from the bad guy without shotting, I dont forsee a need to shoot through a car door or a wall so Hardball is range ammo for me, +1 for JHP.

I want the 45 ACP to do its job via the 230Gr bullet transfering all of its energy when it hits flesh and take the fight out of the bad guy, +1 for JHP.

If I miss the bad guy penetration is the last thing I want so again +1 to the JHP.

If I find myself in a war or perhaps in a SHTF end of the world fight for my life I will use ball ammo without a second thought, for me a JHP round is going to do everything I ask it too otherwise, if the bad guy is holed up behind something my JHPs wont go through I will keep my cover and let him blast away and save my rounds for a clean body shot, just my 2 cents.




I mean NO offence here , but your post makes no sense what so ever....

#1... If you are in your car/truck, the motor dies, or your out of gas, or a flat tire, and you have not had the chance to change it yet, and all of a sudden the BG's show up that night, and decide to make you part of the initiation for the night. you ford up in your vehichle which cannot move and they are on it like stink on a skunk, and you are not now concerned about your ammo going through the car door etc etc. ? not good.


#2.. Taking the fight out of a BG with a 230gr FMJ that will break bones and keep trucking, and not clog, and slow down and lose penatration, sounds pretty smart to me, in a 45acp.... ;)


#3... To quote your statement above in your post.. " If I miss the bad guy penetration is the last thing I want so again +1 to the JHP. {Un qoute}"


This does not even make one once of logical since to me at all... respectively speaking

If you miss the BG, it does not make any difference what ammo you are using, it will go flying off in some direction through richochet.. Missing is the worst part of a SD senerio....

#4... A "quote from your post above.... "If I find myself in a war or perhaps in a SHTF end of the world fight for my life I will use ball ammo without a second thought,........." End your quote}

Excuse me, but if you find yourself as you say, "fight for your life situation," you would not hesitate to use ball ammo....

Again, this is not sound thought. Every fight, with fist, or with crud hit the fan, is a fight for your life.

But you say, you would NOT HESITATE to use FMJ if it was a fight for your life senerio, well then, why is it no good for the guy that is going to kill you at the side of the road, or at the lake late one night while fishing/camping, or the ma and pa store banger BG ? No good there, but ok for last day Armageddon ! That does not make since. :dunno:

If it is good for crud hit the fan, it must be good for the road side, or ma and pa store as well. ;)

Not jumping on ya amigo, not at all. Just trying to say, take a look at your logic man.


Please stay safe


CanyonMan

SDGlock23
11-08-2009, 21:36
I don't knock folks for carrying FMJ, but as long as your gun functions with JHP's, why not carry them? If they expand, and it's likely they will, then grand. If for some reason they do not, BAM! you got an FMJ. Unless you expressly wanted no expansion at all, then as I say, why not carry JHP?

MrMurphy
11-08-2009, 22:29
Pow'rBall. Feeds like ball, hits like a hollowpoint.


I've seen ball drop a guy in his tracks (for the record, 9mm FMJ) because it hit him in either the heart or the lung (whichever it was, he went down hard and crawled about 10 feet, expired less than a minute or so later). Also seen FMJ zip right through people and keep going.

I carry JHP, for the extra larger-hole edge but mostly for the "less overpenetration" likelihood (as most police agencies do.......even NYPD finally had to change since they were shooting through too many bad guys and hitting good guys).

I do carry a .45, but even when i carried a 9mm (with FMJ) because of military rules....it's all about shot placement. As a civvy, i wouldn't carry FMJ unless it was all that was allowed. Because it tends to zip right through people. JHPs do far less often, and hitting walls, etc they do plug up and keep going sometimes, but sometimes they don't. Take your chances.......FMJ will keep going regardless.

17z
11-09-2009, 00:31
I have a S&W M625-8 with ILS and I shoot mainly 230 grain .45 acp. I had to shoot an illeagle about 3 years ago for breaking in my house and he had a knife. I asked if he felt lucky,then I fired one round. the Mexican perp went back to Mexico to be buried. Autopsy showedthat one shot broke spine and neck with one shot. Police and County Attorney viewed self defense was leagle and suspect was on drugs and also a gangbanger. I still get threats from the gang until I bought my .500 S&W 4 inch revolver and fired at them once when they tried to break in and havent ever seen them again. Probably got hit and flew back to Mexico or to Siberia. So,fmj in .45 acp or auto-rim works for me, 17z

squirrelsniper
11-09-2009, 01:09
To me, FMJ ammo is just fine in a 45, though I typically carry JHPs. Despite what many people think, FMJs in 45 won't penetrate as far as a FMJ in 9mm or 40, due to the larger diameter and lower velocity. Ballistics gel tests say they will, but real world use indicates they won't.

I got into a debate on another forum about this statement, but I'll say it again; many 45 JHPs don't expand when shot into live animals, whether two or four-legged. Again, ballistics gel isn't the real world. That's not to say that none of the 45 JHPs expand well, but many of them often don't. I use "good" JHPs like Ranger T, HST and Tactical Bonded. They seem to have a decent track record of actually expanding in real world use. If they don't, oh well, it doesn't really worry me.

Foxfire5
11-09-2009, 01:32
I have been shooting the 45 for about 40 years, started in the ARMY with a 1911, since have had one or two of just about every make and model. I've studied the ballistics of all the jhp and +Pjhp and STILL come to the conclusion that 230fmj hardball is about as good as it gets! +P hollowpoints often have feed and recoil issues. I have found many of my 45s don't feed the +Ps well. The gel tests of expanded hollowpoints of all weights often show 10-12 inches of penetration. This MAY be ok if there are no other obstacles to overcome first. Ball will get thru most non hard barriers with enough to penetrate the vitals. Plus its round nose design gives it the best feed profile for a semiauto, and I currently carry a favorite pistol that only feeds hardball. Some argue that it will overpenetrate a human torso. I'd rather chance that with a round that is 100% reliable and will penetrate than have the latest marketing, untried, majic bullet that is expensive to test and hard to find. The 45 230fmj hardball may not have the highest One Shot stopping capability as some others, but if I must use lethal force I will shoot until the threat is stopped regardless of how many rounds it takes. Chuck Taylor has said in his articles that hardball has worked very well for him many times. U.S. Military use of 45hardball for over 70 years and many wars has shown it to be a very effective manstopper. Just my opinion based on a lifetime of experience!

I have to agree. It worked for me in Vietnam. :supergrin:

Jerseycitysteve
11-09-2009, 08:35
I'm sorry we didn't have Internet chats in the 1520s so the wisdom of the ages was not preserved. I suppose one warrior was telling another he was going to stick to the crossbow and considered the arquebus another fad.

Whoever heard of a crossbow not firing in the rain?

MinervaDoe
11-09-2009, 10:00
I'm sorry we didn't have Internet chats in the 1520s so the wisdom of the ages was not preserved. I suppose one warrior was telling another he was going to stick to the crossbow and considered the arquebus another fad.

Whoever heard of a crossbow not firing in the rain?
Yeah, but with a crossbow, you can only get off one shot per minute. I'll take my longbow anytime. It's got it all: range, accuracy, rapid fire capability and handled the rain just fine at Agincourt. If you can't handle the 70 pound pull, that is your problem.

Don't even get me started on the foil.


.... something like that?

Jerseycitysteve
11-09-2009, 11:26
Yeah, but with a crossbow, you can only get off one shot per minute. I'll take my longbow anytime. It's got it all: range, accuracy, rapid fire capability and handled the rain just fine at Agincourt. If you can't handle the 70 pound pull, that is your problem.

Don't even get me started on the foil.


.... something like that?

Something like that? Exactly! The crossbow supplanted the longbow, because the latter didn't require years of special training to handle the pull and to hit accurately.

HAMMERHEAD
11-09-2009, 12:30
I like the .45acp jacketed SWC as a one and only load for many of the same reasons, plus the added benefit of the SWC shape which is a more effective shape than plain ball.
Bill Wilson claims the 200 grain SWC is just as reliable a feeder as ball ammo. I shoot an HK, which will feed anything, but I'll take the 200 grain JSWC @ 860 fps as my one and only load, but won't argue with the proven 230 ball.
http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo205/FF1063/DSC04700a.jpg

Dave T
11-09-2009, 12:52
This is going to be seen by most here as heresy, but I've never bought the idea that a hand gun bullet "dumps energy". Hand gun rounds disrupt tissue. If the tissue is part of the CNS the stop is nearly instantaneous. If it is soft tissue then stopping is brought about by loss of blood pressure, which results from crushed, torn and penetrated tissue. Bigger bullets (and they can start out bigger or get bigger if they expand) crush and tear more than smaller bullets. Heavier bullets penetrate more than lighter bullets.

The 45 ACP made it's long standing reputation as a man stopper mostly with Ball ammunition. It is fashionable today to knock Ball, but I guess some of us old timers remember the history of the cartridge better than those raised on hype. No offense intended with that last comment, but most everyone will have to admit there is more hype in most bullet effectiveness conversations than fact.

YMMV,
Dave

ThreadKiller
11-09-2009, 13:05
This is going to be seen by most here as heresy, but I've never bought the idea that a hand gun bullet "dumps energy". Hand gun rounds disrupt tissue. If the tissue is part of the CNS the stop is nearly instantaneous. If it is soft tissue then stopping is brought about by loss of blood pressure, which results from crushed, torn and penetrated tissue. Bigger bullets (and they can start out bigger or get bigger if they expand) crush and tear more than smaller bullets. Heavier bullets penetrate more than lighter bullets.

The 45 ACP made it's long standing reputation as a man stopper mostly with Ball ammunition. It is fashionable today to knock Ball, but I guess some of us old timers remember the history of the cartridge better than those raised on hype. No offense intended with that last comment, but most everyone will have to admit there is more hype in most bullet effectiveness conversations than fact.

YMMV,
Dave

I beg to differ. Granted, with 300 some odd ft lbs @the muzzle, it isn't a lot to begin with, BUT the action of opening the HP will "dump" some energy into the target. Might not be a lot but something has to give.

How else can the fact that a JHP that expands usually doesn't penetrate as far as an FMJ, all things being equal, be explained?

Yes, the grand ol' 45 ACP earned its chops with FMJ's.... because that was what was available (and what was mandated) and the GI 1911's wouldn't feed anything else for the most part.

I'll be the first to admit there is no such thing as a "magic" bullet design. JHP expansion is iffy at best given handgun velocities. Still, I'll go with JHP's because I don't believe they're any kind of handicap and may indeed perform better... should they expand.

CanyonMan
11-09-2009, 13:14
This is going to be seen by most here as heresy, but I've never bought the idea that a hand gun bullet "dumps energy". Hand gun rounds disrupt tissue. If the tissue is part of the CNS the stop is nearly instantaneous. If it is soft tissue then stopping is brought about by loss of blood pressure, which results from crushed, torn and penetrated tissue. Bigger bullets (and they can start out bigger or get bigger if they expand) crush and tear more than smaller bullets. Heavier bullets penetrate more than lighter bullets.

The 45 ACP made it's long standing reputation as a man stopper mostly with Ball ammunition. It is fashionable today to knock Ball, but I guess some of us old timers remember the history of the cartridge better than those raised on hype. No offense intended with that last comment, but most everyone will have to admit there is more hype in most bullet effectiveness conversations than fact.

YMMV,
Dave




Very Good, very well said. !

Thank you !

+1



CanyonMan

Foxfire5
11-10-2009, 00:42
Very Good, very well said. !

Thank you !

+1



CanyonMan
:goodpost: And might I add. lets say you happen upon a angry bear. Which would you rather have in the 1911 you are carrying:

185gr jacketed hollow Points or 230gr Hardball??? :whistling:

Ak.Hiker
11-10-2009, 02:07
Well sir, this is the mind set of most people. Unfortunately it is the wrong mind set brought on by internet ramblings, and gun rag mags, instead of 'first hand experience'.

It is not, "while clogged" going to "plow through" as a FMJ would, because it "is clogged," it slows down, therefore it loses it's penatration capibilities. Again, it slows down. As where the FMJ continues unrestricted.

That is the short answer...... ;)



Good shooting.



CanyonMan
I have also found that clogged HP bullets do not penetrate as deep as FMJ.

Ak.Hiker
11-10-2009, 02:26
:goodpost: And might I add. lets say you happen upon a angry bear. Which would you rather have in the 1911 you are carrying:

185gr jacketed hollow Points or 230gr Hardball??? :whistling:
Of the two choices hardball. But a bigger gun would be my first choice. I ran across a brown bear on the side of a trail in some alders tonite so wanting a bigger gun is still fresh in my mind. And I thought it was winter.

Jerseycitysteve
11-10-2009, 12:09
http://thumb2.webshots.net/s/thumb1/7/40/14/205174014YohGgW_th.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1205174014060768982YohGgW)

Forget about hardball. A good old fashioned spear makes good bear medicine.

Madmax1010
11-10-2009, 15:07
Every one talks about 12 to 13" of penetration both FMJ and JHP does that however have you ever measured your body thickness. It's less then that.


And the percent you miss in a hight stress SD shoot is much more to worry about then thru and thru.

I carry FMJ all the time without a second thought.

Jell tests show pretty much the same penetration.

dosei
11-10-2009, 16:55
:goodpost: And might I add. lets say you happen upon a angry bear. Which would you rather have in the 1911 you are carrying:

185gr jacketed hollow Points or 230gr Hardball??? :whistling:

45acp vs. Bear is equal to 380 vs. man...marginally sufficient at best. The fact that I would want depleted uranium core armor piercing FMJ ball ammo loaded as hot as possible when going up against an attacking bear (if stuck with a 45acp...I prefer S&W 500 Mag for bear) has no bearing on my choices for SD against humans.

Restless28
11-11-2009, 07:14
I like the simpleness of the .45 FMJ. It is effective without having to rely on gee-whiz technology to work. Why rely on the assumption that the round will expand every time, when good old fashioned FMJ works well?

Mwinter
11-11-2009, 10:55
www.le.atk.com

Perusing the gobs of tests they have online, various 230gr JHPs, including those noted as plugged after intermediate barriers such as wallboard and plywood, are doing 14-15" in gel.

Hornady .45ACP TAP, in 230gr and even 200gr weights, exceed this, going as deep as 15-21" after barriers (see notes at www.hornady.com).

15"-21" of penetration is plenty, if penetration is what's your after. Several types of plugged/non-expanded .45ACP JHPs are going deep in published tests, even according to FBI specs (12"-16" desired). In gel without barriers like wallboard, they're expanding and still going 14-16".

That's plenty of penetration for me, and JHP are simply more efficient at wounding (cutting/crushing tissue) than roundnosed .45ACP ball. Cutting and crushing tissue is the the dominant wounding effect of any handgun round in the police/military service range.

A 'plugged' or non-expanded JHP presents a flatter profile than even a deformed 230gr FMJ projectile. FMJs in most calibers routinely do not even deliver a full-bore wound track (ie, the permanent cavity isn't even really 0.45" with roundnosed ball in elastic tissue or test media....I've seen good tests that show even SWC projectiles fail to deliver full-caliber tracks).

Many modern JHPs, unlike 230gr ball, are specifically designed to meet the requirements of defeating auto glass, car doors, building materials, etc.

As aforementioned, the significant successful terminal end-use of the .45acp amongst organizations and personnel who can choose what type of ammunition to issue is overwhelmingly a JHP of some sort, usually in the 230gr weight range.

As for Br'er Bear?.....any handgun below .44 Magnum makes me woozy, and any handgun at all is still puddle-in-the pants time for me. I'm all for letting him get a good bite and stuff a willie-pete into his piehole, and following up with a Molotov cocktail, thermal detonator, SADM....etc etc.

(If you can't tell, bears frighten me a wee bit.)

CanyonMan
11-11-2009, 14:20
www.le.atk.com

Perusing the gobs of tests they have online, various 230gr JHPs, including those noted as plugged after intermediate barriers such as wallboard and plywood, are doing 14-15" in gel.

Hornady .45ACP TAP, in 230gr and even 200gr weights, exceed this, going as deep as 15-21" after barriers (see notes at www.hornady.com).

15"-21" of penetration is plenty, if penetration is what's your after. Several types of plugged/non-expanded .45ACP JHPs are going deep in published tests, even according to FBI specs (12"-16" desired). In gel without barriers like wallboard, they're expanding and still going 14-16".

That's plenty of penetration for me, and JHP are simply more efficient at wounding (cutting/crushing tissue) than roundnosed .45ACP ball. Cutting and crushing tissue is the the dominant wounding effect of any handgun round in the police/military service range.

A 'plugged' or non-expanded JHP presents a flatter profile than even a deformed 230gr FMJ projectile. FMJs in most calibers routinely do not even deliver a full-bore wound track (ie, the permanent cavity isn't even really 0.45" with roundnosed ball in elastic tissue or test media....I've seen good tests that show even SWC projectiles fail to deliver full-caliber tracks).

Many modern JHPs, unlike 230gr ball, are specifically designed to meet the requirements of defeating auto glass, car doors, building materials, etc.

As aforementioned, the significant successful terminal end-use of the .45acp amongst organizations and personnel who can choose what type of ammunition to issue is overwhelmingly a JHP of some sort, usually in the 230gr weight range.

As for Br'er Bear?.....any handgun below .44 Magnum makes me woozy, and any handgun at all is still puddle-in-the pants time for me. I'm all for letting him get a good bite and stuff a willie-pete into his piehole, and following up with a Molotov cocktail, thermal detonator, SADM....etc etc.

(If you can't tell, bears frighten me a wee bit.)


Mwinter, LOL. Not at ya hoss, just that you cracked me up with the line there in "blue." I needed a good laugh for the day. Thanks ! ;)


take care Amigo. Don't even read Goldielocks to your kids. You may do it with a nervous voice and freak them out... Kidding. ;)



Good shooting
Stay safe


CanyonMan

Dave T
11-11-2009, 17:36
Taking this discussion down a slight side trail, I was disappointed a number of years ago when Hornady quit offering their 230g Truncated Cone FMJ bullet, both loaded ammunition and the bullets for reloading. I always thought that was the next generation of Ball ammo. Now if someone had loaded that in a military style case with a good case cannalur to prevent set-back, and made it an honest 850 fps in a 5", the Ball round would have an even brighter future.

Oh well, suppose this is another example of an old fart living in the past. (smile)

Dave

PS: Anyone here played with Double Tap's 230g FMJ Flat-point? It's meplat is smaller than the old Hornady but it might be the best thing out there for this application.

CanyonMan
11-11-2009, 18:41
Taking this discussion down a slight side trail, I was disappointed a number of years ago when Hornady quit offering their 230g Truncated Cone FMJ bullet, both loaded ammunition and the bullets for reloading. I always thought that was the next generation of Ball ammo. Now if someone had loaded that in a military style case with a good case cannalur to prevent set-back, and made it an honest 850 fps in a 5", the Ball round would have an even brighter future.
Oh well, suppose this is another example of an old fart living in the past. (smile)

Dave

PS: Anyone here played with Double Tap's 230g FMJ Flat-point? It's meplat is smaller than the old Hornady but it might be the best thing out there for this application.



Man you said it. I was talking to someone the other day, I think it may have been on this thread, don't remember, about this very thing, about the RNFP, OR the Truncated Cone FMJ bullet. I don't know why folks take a good thing and dump it, well I think I do know a big part of the reason, but you know what I mean. ;)

That meplat, slight as it is/was, really made it nice didn't it ?

I think it was Ak.Hiker, if he is around here somewhere he can give the scoop on the DT 230g FMJ Flat-point. I believe it was him. May be wrong.

Like you as well Dave, A very good source for them to 'reload' would be great.
Man someone told me a few days ago, and I cannot remember. I'll see if I can find it. If I can, I'll give you a shout back.



Later bud. :fred:



CanyonMan

:patriot:

Tarowah
11-11-2009, 19:37
My reply is underlined.


I mean NO offence here , but your post makes no sense what so ever....

#1... If you are in your car/truck, the motor dies, or your out of gas, or a flat tire, and you have not had the chance to change it yet, and all of a sudden the BG's show up that night, and decide to make you part of the initiation for the night. you ford up in your vehichle which cannot move and they are on it like stink on a skunk, and you are not now concerned about your ammo going through the car door etc etc. ? not good.

I dont understand your thought process here, the cars I drive have glass in them, if I need to shoot out of my car I will shoot through the windows.


#2.. Taking the fight out of a BG with a 230gr FMJ that will break bones and keep trucking, and not clog, and slow down and lose penatration, sounds pretty smart to me, in a 45acp.... ;)

If you miss the bone and you hit nothing but tissue that ball ammo is like pissing in the wind, IE you are not doing much damage to the attacker, Hollow points that expand do more tissue damage and transfer energy, ball ammo will notdo either nearly as well, if you hit a bone with a 230gr bonded Ranger T round do you think it will bounce off or break the bone? I havant had a quality SD hollow point not expand in years but sure it could happen, but the hole is the same size as a ball round so the point is moot.

#3... To quote your statement above in your post.. " If I miss the bad guy penetration is the last thing I want so again +1 to the JHP. {Un qoute}"


This does not even make one once of logical since to me at all... respectively speaking

If you miss the BG, it does not make any difference what ammo you are using, it will go flying off in some direction through richochet.. Missing is the worst part of a SD senerio....

Allow me to make myself a little more clear, if I miss the bad guy the round I use makes one hell of a difference, I do not want my missed rounds crashing through somones house or car and hitting them, a miss with ball ammo has a better chance to pass through an unintended object and kill somone that I dont want it too.

#4... A "quote from your post above.... "If I find myself in a war or perhaps in a SHTF end of the world fight for my life I will use ball ammo without a second thought,........." End your quote}

Excuse me, but if you find yourself as you say, "fight for your life situation," you would not hesitate to use ball ammo....

Again, this is not sound thought. Every fight, with fist, or with crud hit the fan, is a fight for your life.

But you say, you would NOT HESITATE to use FMJ if it was a fight for your life senerio, well then, why is it no good for the guy that is going to kill you at the side of the road, or at the lake late one night while fishing/camping, or the ma and pa store banger BG ? No good there, but ok for last day Armageddon ! That does not make since. :dunno:


I guess you and I have different ideas on collateral damage, I want a round that hits the bad guy and stops, I try to be responsible and use a round that will stop when it hits a bad guy rather than passing through my target and killing someone behind my target, if I miss I want a round that has a better chance to hit something and stop, penetration is the last thing I want, in a situation where I stop caring about whats behind my target then sure ball ammo is fine for me, like in an armageddon situation, but as long as I still care about the others around me I will use a round that will help protect my life and has less of a chance to endanger somones elses if I miss or if it passes though my target.


If it is good for crud hit the fan, it must be good for the road side, or ma and pa store as well. ;)

Not jumping on ya amigo, not at all. Just trying to say, take a look at your logic man.


Please stay safe

It seems my logic is pretty sound after all, I have given plenty of thought as to what I expect from my equipment, ball ammo has its place and hollow points have their place, in my case ball ammo is limited to the range because it is the second best option for me, if you live in an area that it works for you thats fine use it, just keep in mind that the old way isnt always the best way, 100 years ago 45acp ball ammo was "the" round to shoot, in 2009 modern hollow point ammo has more advantages over ball, I would guess that is why nearly every law enforcement agency in the country use hollow points over ball.

CanyonMan



Tarowah

Tarowah
11-11-2009, 19:47
Just to add I hope my post dosent come across like I am being a jerk, I have no issue with being called out on my point of view, I am just not that great at getting my thoughts to come across the keyboard the way I always intend them too, so if I am stepping on toes I dont mean to do so.

agtman
11-11-2009, 20:11
*** [Much snippage of nonrelevant yadda-yadda] ***

Chuck Taylor has said in his articles that hardball has worked very well for him many times. U.S. Military use of 45hardball for over 70 years and many wars has shown it to be a very effective manstopper. Just my opinion based on a lifetime of experience!

Isn't this the same Chuckles who, way back when, swapped out his C&L-ed 1911 for a G17 chambered for the intermittently man-stopping 9-minimeter? :dunno:

IIRC, he likes to brag in the gun rags from time to time that his personal unit has presently digested its umpteenth million 9-mini round ... :whistling:

Yep, ... always interested in what this guy has to say ... :upeyes:

:cool:

Jerseycitysteve
11-11-2009, 20:55
[/B]

Isn't this the same Chuckles who, way back when, swapped out his C&L-ed 1911 for a G17 chambered for the intermittently man-stopping 9-minimeter? :dunno:

IIRC, he likes to brag in the gun rags from time to time that his personal unit has presently digested its umpteenth million 9-mini round ... :whistling:

Yep, ... always interested in what this guy has to say ... :upeyes:

:cool:

Besides a nasty, anonymous, personal attack on a more accomplished person, what's your point? :dunno:

CanyonMan
11-12-2009, 00:03
My reply is underlined.


I mean NO offence here , but your post makes no sense what so ever....

#1... If you are in your car/truck, the motor dies, or your out of gas, or a flat tire, and you have not had the chance to change it yet, and all of a sudden the BG's show up that night, and decide to make you part of the initiation for the night. you ford up in your vehichle which cannot move and they are on it like stink on a skunk, and you are not now concerned about your ammo going through the car door etc etc. ? not good.

I dont understand your thought process here, the cars I drive have glass in them, if I need to shoot out of my car I will shoot through the windows.


#2.. Taking the fight out of a BG with a 230gr FMJ that will break bones and keep trucking, and not clog, and slow down and lose penatration, sounds pretty smart to me, in a 45acp.... ;)

If you miss the bone and you hit nothing but tissue that ball ammo is like pissing in the wind, IE you are not doing much damage to the attacker, Hollow points that expand do more tissue damage and transfer energy, ball ammo will notdo either nearly as well, if you hit a bone with a 230gr bonded Ranger T round do you think it will bounce off or break the bone? I havant had a quality SD hollow point not expand in years but sure it could happen, but the hole is the same size as a ball round so the point is moot.

#3... To quote your statement above in your post.. " If I miss the bad guy penetration is the last thing I want so again +1 to the JHP. {Un qoute}"


This does not even make one once of logical since to me at all... respectively speaking

If you miss the BG, it does not make any difference what ammo you are using, it will go flying off in some direction through richochet.. Missing is the worst part of a SD senerio....

Allow me to make myself a little more clear, if I miss the bad guy the round I use makes one hell of a difference, I do not want my missed rounds crashing through somones house or car and hitting them, a miss with ball ammo has a better chance to pass through an unintended object and kill somone that I dont want it too.

#4... A "quote from your post above.... "If I find myself in a war or perhaps in a SHTF end of the world fight for my life I will use ball ammo without a second thought,........." End your quote}

Excuse me, but if you find yourself as you say, "fight for your life situation," you would not hesitate to use ball ammo....

Again, this is not sound thought. Every fight, with fist, or with crud hit the fan, is a fight for your life.

But you say, you would NOT HESITATE to use FMJ if it was a fight for your life senerio, well then, why is it no good for the guy that is going to kill you at the side of the road, or at the lake late one night while fishing/camping, or the ma and pa store banger BG ? No good there, but ok for last day Armageddon ! That does not make since. :dunno:


I guess you and I have different ideas on collateral damage, I want a round that hits the bad guy and stops, I try to be responsible and use a round that will stop when it hits a bad guy rather than passing through my target and killing someone behind my target, if I miss I want a round that has a better chance to hit something and stop, penetration is the last thing I want, in a situation where I stop caring about whats behind my target then sure ball ammo is fine for me, like in an armageddon situation, but as long as I still care about the others around me I will use a round that will help protect my life and has less of a chance to endanger somones elses if I miss or if it passes though my target.


If it is good for crud hit the fan, it must be good for the road side, or ma and pa store as well. ;)

Not jumping on ya amigo, not at all. Just trying to say, take a look at your logic man.


Please stay safe

It seems my logic is pretty sound after all, I have given plenty of thought as to what I expect from my equipment, ball ammo has its place and hollow points have their place, in my case ball ammo is limited to the range because it is the second best option for me, if you live in an area that it works for you thats fine use it, just keep in mind that the old way isnt always the best way, 100 years ago 45acp ball ammo was "the" round to shoot, in 2009 modern hollow point ammo has more advantages over ball, I would guess that is why nearly every law enforcement agency in the country use hollow points over ball.

CanyonMan



Tarowah




I know you are not even going to believe this.... I just spent 45 minutes typing a reply to you, and pushed the button, and it went to who knows where.... I am not a happy camper with that... (not your fault)

I am not, 'even' going through all that again tonight. It was even real good. ;)

I'll be out for a while, (a day or two maybe), and I promise I'll try again. Not tonight. I got a long drive ahead of me, and a lot of range to ride tomorrow, and a good deal of work to do on the ranch. I really had this thing about two pages long for ya, and the dang thing went somewhere else or I don't know. As slow as I type, I was not jumpin with joy.... ;)

until I get back with you. You did a fine job of explaining, and i hear what your saying, "now" from your reply, and i agree with a great deal of it, and some I do not..... No biggie man. I will try again in a few day's ok?

I'm going to kick the PC, and then hit the sack. Sorry hoss, I don't know what happened. I'll get back to ya soon as I can bud.

Stay safe...


CanyonMan

Ak.Hiker
11-12-2009, 00:34
Taking this discussion down a slight side trail, I was disappointed a number of years ago when Hornady quit offering their 230g Truncated Cone FMJ bullet, both loaded ammunition and the bullets for reloading. I always thought that was the next generation of Ball ammo. Now if someone had loaded that in a military style case with a good case cannalur to prevent set-back, and made it an honest 850 fps in a 5", the Ball round would have an even brighter future.

Oh well, suppose this is another example of an old fart living in the past. (smile)

Dave

PS: Anyone here played with Double Tap's 230g FMJ Flat-point? It's meplat is smaller than the old Hornady but it might be the best thing out there for this application.

I like both the Double Tap and Buffalo Bore 230 grain FMJ Flat Point. They are good loads and I have found that at least in spruce wood they penetrate straight more like a SWC hardcast. They both would make good loads if deep penetration is needed in a 45 ACP. RealGuns.com tested the BB 230 FMJ flat point in wet news print and got over 30 inches of penetration. The 230 grain Hornady XTP +P went 18. Keep in mind any load that will go 18 inches in wet newsprint is a darn good load. These FMJ flat points would make good bullets for the 45 Super. Tim Sundles the owner of Buffalo Bore likes the 230 FMJ flat point as a field load in his 1911.

Ak.Hiker
11-12-2009, 00:44
Perhaps several of us could chip in and send MilkMan Dan some bear bells like the ones they sell to tourists. With these babys on he will be plenty safe from bear attack. A few hunters have reported finding bear bells in scat but I would think this would only be from bells lost on the trail by careless hikers.

Tarowah
11-12-2009, 05:18
I know you are not even going to believe this.... I just spent 45 minutes typing a reply to you, and pushed the button, and it went to who knows where.... I am not a happy camper with that... (not your fault)

I am not, 'even' going through all that again tonight. It was even real good. ;)

I'll be out for a while, (a day or two maybe), and I promise I'll try again. Not tonight. I got a long drive ahead of me, and a lot of range to ride tomorrow, and a good deal of work to do on the ranch. I really had this thing about two pages long for ya, and the dang thing went somewhere else or I don't know. As slow as I type, I was not jumpin with joy.... ;)

until I get back with you. You did a fine job of explaining, and i hear what your saying, "now" from your reply, and i agree with a great deal of it, and some I do not..... No biggie man. I will try again in a few day's ok?

I'm going to kick the PC, and then hit the sack. Sorry hoss, I don't know what happened. I'll get back to ya soon as I can bud.

Stay safe...


CanyonMan


I know what you mean about spending 45 minutes turning a post into a work of verbal art, in my case it normally ends up looking like a 3 year old with a green crayon but I try lol.

Be safe on that drive and take your time with the reply, I will be around to read it at your leasure, I am looking forward to seeing another point of view based on the set of parameters I use to pick carry ammo.

Iceman cHucK
11-12-2009, 10:40
On the subject of 230fmjflatpoint, Hornady still makes the bullets. DT uses them in their offering. I also have LoadX ammo load that duplicates the original Hornady at about 830fps. They are the only ones I have found in standard pressure, the BuffaloBore and DT are at +P speed though DT doesn't call it that. I do have a 45Super 230fmjfp load from BuffaloBore as well as a 230jhp. They clock over 1100fps from my S&W 4506!

Iceman cHucK
11-12-2009, 10:42
Perhaps several of us could chip in and send MilkMan Dan some bear bells like the ones they sell to tourists. With these babys on he will be plenty safe from bear attack. A few hunters have reported finding bear bells in scat but I would think this would only be from bells lost on the trail by careless hikers.
The bells also usually smell sweet like pepper spray:rofl:

glocksterr
11-12-2009, 11:14
.45 is ta, best, no im .40, umm 9mm, no 10mm, 44mag, no,no,no!!!


:whistling:

desertdweller
11-12-2009, 12:02
I bought 230fp from Doubletap recently. Beautiful ammo, great customer service, quick reasonable shipping. I like it. However I have no idea what pres.(non +p) and velocity(4" bbl) I have purchased. I am using this for my "outback" load. and no I don"t believe it to be a great bear load.........but a step up from the 230 fmj I have been carrying. Anyone care to offer more comparisions DT/BB? Thanks.

Ak.Hiker
11-12-2009, 14:22
I bought 230fp from Doubletap recently. Beautiful ammo, great customer service, quick reasonable shipping. I like it. However I have no idea what pres.(non +p) and velocity(4" bbl) I have purchased. I am using this for my "outback" load. and no I don"t believe it to be a great bear load.........but a step up from the 230 fmj I have been carrying. Anyone care to offer more comparisions DT/BB? Thanks.
While it sure is not a 44 Magnum those FMJ flat points do offer deep penetration. In my testing they go as deep as a 240 grain 44 Magnum soft point. But of course the soft point will expand some and the 44 Magnum has more energy. If you carry a 45 acp in the woods they are about as good as it gets unless you have a revolver and run Auto Rim loads with a 250 grain hard cast.

desertdweller
11-12-2009, 14:42
Hi AK.Hiker, Thanks for your post. Have you a preference in 230 fp's? DT/BB? Here the bears are black and not brown also not normally aggressive. Most packers do consider them very unpredictable. The cats are large and and usually no problem. Also near the border which creates a whole other set of problems. Regards.

stengun
11-12-2009, 19:09
Howdy,

+1 on 230gr FMJ in a 45ACP.

Here's a pic of a .40cal 180gr slug at 1050ft/sec that got plugged up and did not expand........

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/53d251cdf0de36b1c4d7cc06898922996494864.JPG

The one on the far left is a 10mm Win ST out of my G20. Then a Rem 180gr JTC out of my G20. Last two are Rem 180gr JHP out of my G23.

Yep, if you are using a Wonder 9 with hi-tech gizmo HP that you HOPE will expand, well, don't count on it!

Yep, 2 rds of 45 ball beats the crap out of 3 9mm HPs. I do like through shots for the maxinum amount of truama!

Paul

Ak.Hiker
11-12-2009, 22:55
Hi AK.Hiker, Thanks for your post. Have you a preference in 230 fp's? DT/BB? Here the bears are black and not brown also not normally aggressive. Most packers do consider them very unpredictable. The cats are large and and usually no problem. Also near the border which creates a whole other set of problems. Regards.

Both the DT and BB 230 flat points are real close. The BB may be a little hotter. I would carry either. If I had to pick one over the other even though they are more expensive I would go with the BB.

sigcalcatrant
11-13-2009, 03:02
I don't knock folks for carrying FMJ, but as long as your gun functions with JHP's, why not carry them? If they expand, and it's likely they will, then grand. If for some reason they do not, BAM! you got an FMJ. Unless you expressly wanted no expansion at all, then as I say, why not carry JHP?You're trying to make sense in a nonsensical thread.

agtman
11-13-2009, 07:26
Besides a nasty, anonymous, personal attack on a more accomplished person, what's your point? :dunno:

Wasn't meant to be "nasty" or "personal," just sarcastically curious as to whether (if it's the same gun-rag writer I think it is), Chuck's moved from the mantra of "they-all-fall-to-.45-hardball" to "the-9-is fine," as it contradicts that hard-core BigDog talk that appears in Iceman's post. :dunno:

Jerseycitysteve
11-13-2009, 08:19
Wasn't meant to be "nasty" or "personal," just sarcastically curious as to whether (if it's the same gun-rag writer I think it is), Chuck's moved from the mantra of "they-all-fall-to-.45-hardball" to "the-9-is fine," as it contradicts that hard-core BigDog talk that appears in Iceman's post. :dunno:

Chuck Taylor is many things: a prominent gun writer, trainer, combat veteran and world class IPSC shooter. He's the founder of the American Small Arms Academy, and has trained as many people as Jeff Cooper or Clint Smith. BUT he isn't posting anonymously on the Internet.

As did the first soldier who put aside his crossbow for a musket, Taylor realizes that ammunition and weapons have improved over the years. Paying attention to ballistic science doesn't make a gun writer a liar or an idiot.

Alaskapopo
11-14-2009, 00:08
I have been shooting the 45 for about 40 years, started in the ARMY with a 1911, since have had one or two of just about every make and model. I've studied the ballistics of all the jhp and +Pjhp and STILL come to the conclusion that 230fmj hardball is about as good as it gets! +P hollowpoints often have feed and recoil issues. I have found many of my 45s don't feed the +Ps well. The gel tests of expanded hollowpoints of all weights often show 10-12 inches of penetration. This MAY be ok if there are no other obstacles to overcome first. Ball will get thru most non hard barriers with enough to penetrate the vitals. Plus its round nose design gives it the best feed profile for a semiauto, and I currently carry a favorite pistol that only feeds hardball. Some argue that it will overpenetrate a human torso. I'd rather chance that with a round that is 100% reliable and will penetrate than have the latest marketing, untried, majic bullet that is expensive to test and hard to find. The 45 230fmj hardball may not have the highest One Shot stopping capability as some others, but if I must use lethal force I will shoot until the threat is stopped regardless of how many rounds it takes. Chuck Taylor has said in his articles that hardball has worked very well for him many times. U.S. Military use of 45hardball for over 70 years and many wars has shown it to be a very effective manstopper. Just my opinion based on a lifetime of experience!

45 ball is not that effective compared to a good 45 jhp. Also in most obsticals jhp bullets cave in on themselves and perform about the same as ball. You gain little to no penetration advantage in most mediums with ball. When it comes to tissue damage you lose a lot of performance with ball. Very tiny holes that don't bleed much. The military does not use the pistol as a primary fighting arm. The fact it was used for 70 years proves nothing. As for reliability if your pistol will not feed hollow points its time to get a good pistol.
Pat
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/IM000882.jpg

Alaskapopo
11-14-2009, 00:17
Howdy,




Yep, 2 rds of 45 ball beats the crap out of 3 9mm HPs. I do like through shots for the maxinum amount of truama!

Paul



Sorry but your mistaken.

Three rounds of 9mm HST expanding to .75 create more tissue damage than do 2 .45 acp ball rounds that don't expand. In fact 3 9mm ball rounds beats 2 45 ball rounds. Just do the math. .45 x 12 inches for a would volume of 5.4 x 2= 10.8 ( rough figures) Now take .35 x 12 inches 4.2 now times that by 3 = 12.6.

So even 3 9mm ball rounds beat 2 45 ball rounds. For the record I am a 45 fan. But I know that the difference between the 9mm, 40sw and 45 are not all that great.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/impactchart-diameter.jpg
Pat

glocksterr
11-14-2009, 06:20
maybe im doing the math wrong but 2 9mm @ .75" beat 2 .45ACP @ .45".


:dunno:

Dave T
11-14-2009, 11:48
maybe im doing the math wrong but 2 9mm @ .75" beat 2 .45ACP @ .45".


:dunno:

Yea, you're doing the math wrong. 2 X .355" = .71", not .75". Then too, if you double .45" it doesn't stay at .45", it's .90".

Guess it's that new math they were teaching a few years ago. (smile)

Dave

G36's Rule
11-14-2009, 15:12
Yea, you're doing the math wrong. 2 X .355" = .71", not .75". Then too, if you double .45" it doesn't stay at .45", it's .90".

Guess it's that new math they were teaching a few years ago. (smile)

Dave

Ummm, I'm betting he was referring to expanded 9mm JHP's with diameters of .75" EACH as opposed to two 45ACP Ball ammo that don't expand at all.

You did state that 45 Ball beat 9mm HP's...

:whistling:

Mwinter
11-14-2009, 15:14
Thanks for the offer gents, but I've no need for the bear-bells. The idea is that the bear will hear you coming and leave, right?

Well I've got that covered, since I'll be making all kinds of noise if a bear is in the same county as I am (namely screaming bloody murder, running like a fat kid on pudding day whilst shooting my hiking buddy in the leg).

With regards to .45acp and bears.....the FMJ/JHP discussion is kinda moot to me, since bear tissue can be literally twice as dense as us 2-leggers. That's to say that even a round that goes 'deep' in a standardized test might make it half that deep in Smokey, and that's if it doesn't hit a heavy bone.

Phased plasma rifle in the 40W range, flamethrower, necklace of grenades....

I also seem to recall that Hornady's 230gr RNFMJ component is a bonded bullet. Haven't carried a .45 in a few years, but I'm a big fan of bonded pills.

sigcalcatrant
11-14-2009, 15:47
Yep, 2 rds of 45 ball beats the crap out of 3 9mm HPs. I do like through shots for the maxinum amount of truama!

Paul:rofl:

agtman
11-14-2009, 18:27
Chuck Taylor is many things: a prominent gun writer, trainer, combat veteran and world class IPSC shooter. He's the founder of the American Small Arms Academy, and has trained as many people as Jeff Cooper or Clint Smith. BUT he isn't posting anonymously on the Internet.

Wasn't really questioning any of that, Steve-o, although whether he trained "as many people" as Col. Cooper is certainly open to debate. :upeyes:

As did the first soldier who put aside his crossbow for a musket, Taylor realizes that ammunition and weapons have improved over the years. Paying attention to ballistic science doesn't make a gun writer a liar or an idiot.

A way long-ish way of saying, "yes," we are, after all, talking about the same gun-scribe - going from "they all fall to .45acp hard ball" back in the day ... to ... "Man, I'm really likin' that 9-mini-meter." :shocked: ... Okay ...

"Taylor realizes that ammunition and weapons have improved over the years."***

:upeyes: ... or maybe, advancing in age, he got arthritis and "devolved" to a more wrist-friendly caliber - :shocked: - hey, achey-joints happen, ... and every shooter likes a gun that runs and runs, and suddenly that never-say-die G17 starts looking real appealing.

Thanks for info.

sigcalcatrant
11-14-2009, 18:40
[/B]

Isn't this the same Chuckles who, way back when, swapped out his C&L-ed 1911 for a G17 chambered for the intermittently man-stopping 9-minimeter? :dunno:

IIRC, he likes to brag in the gun rags from time to time that his personal unit has presently digested its umpteenth million 9-mini round ... :whistling:

Yep, ... always interested in what this guy has to say ... :upeyes:

:cool:This post proves that ignorance is bliss.

sigcalcatrant
11-14-2009, 19:13
45 ball is not that effective compared to a good 45 jhp. Also in most obsticals jhp bullets cave in on themselves and perform about the same as ball. You gain little to no penetration advantage in most mediums with ball. When it comes to tissue damage you lose a lot of performance with ball. Very tiny holes that don't bleed much. The military does not use the pistol as a primary fighting arm. The fact it was used for 70 years proves nothing. As for reliability if your pistol will not feed hollow points its time to get a good pistol.
Pat
I drove my neighbor to the emergency room after after he accidentally shot himself in the thigh with a 1911 in .45 ACP, FMJ. The bullet passed through, nicking the femoral artery. The artery sustained no damage, it was harmlessly pushed aside by the round nose. The bullet continued on through and was found in like-new condition on the floor. The holes didn't even bleed much. We were at the emergency room about two hours, most of the time was spent waiting or convincing the police it was an accident. If I were going to be shot with a .45, God forbid, and I could choose the bullet, that would be the one. I would choose it over a 9mm Luger JHP, also.

Jerseycitysteve
11-14-2009, 20:47
This post proves that ignorance is bliss.

Indeed!

Ak.Hiker
11-15-2009, 00:51
What kind of penetration will the 9mm get when expanded to .75? Even if the 230 ball 45 acp load tumbles it could go as deep as 18 inches. The flat points will go even deeper. But it is not much different than the line used on hunters that complain about the performance of their recovered bullet. At what point in the animals death did the bullet not work.

NEOH212
11-15-2009, 03:05
Well I guess it's time for me to chime in with my two cents worth.

Hollow points for me! Period!

If FMJ was so good and there were no over penetration issues (Including all of the police shootings of years past where FMJ ammo over penetrated and caused injuries/death.) Why then have all Law Enforcement agencies (That I know of) switched over to hollow point ammo? I agree that there is no replacement for shot placement and I'm not saying that you can't kill with FMJ ammo. That would be nonsense! At the least, hollow point ammo in a handgun has many clear advantages over any FMJ bullet out their when we are talking about your majority of self defense shootings. We can argue about barriers, car doors, armor plate, whatever. I don't think that those things are really that big of and issue with the proper hollow point (or controlled expansion round if your prefer.) To each his own I guess but when your sitting on the witness stand and explaining to the prosecutor why you used ammo that has the tendency to over penetrate, and in doing so killed an innocent person across the street after the bullet passed through the perp, don't come crying because I won't feel sorry for you! As far as I'm concerned, anyone who carries FMJ ammo for defense is playing with fire and sooner or later your going to get burned. There is plenty of evidence out there to support my argument and just as much evidence out there to disprove yours. If you want to go against the grain, that's fine. Be different. Go ahead and disregard the real world findings and get yourselves into trouble in the process of being different. Is it worth it? May you be right and I be wrong? Let me ask you this, do you really want to bet on it when the time comes? How confident are you really? You may want to reexamine your position and get with the program! Don't say I didn't warn you. I have said what I wanted to say and I have nothing further to discuss. Thank you for your answer. :cool:

happyguy
11-15-2009, 07:09
Well sir, this is the mind set of most people. Unfortunately it is the wrong mind set brought on by internet ramblings, and gun rag mags, instead of 'first hand experience'.

It is not, "while clogged" going to "plow through" as a FMJ would, because it "is clogged," it slows down, therefore it loses it's penatration capibilities. Again, it slows down. As where the FMJ continues unrestricted.

That is the short answer...... ;)



Good shooting.



CanyonMan

This post runs counter to my experience and that of the professional wound ballistics community.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Madmax1010
11-15-2009, 09:48
Well I guess it's time for me to chime in with my two cents worth.

Hollow points for me! Period!

If FMJ was so good and there were no over penetration issues (Including all of the police shootings of years past where FMJ ammo over penetrated and caused injuries/death.) Why then have all Law Enforcement agencies (That I know of) switched over to hollow point ammo? I agree that there is no replacement for shot placement and I'm not saying that you can't kill with FMJ ammo. That would be nonsense! At the least, hollow point ammo in a handgun has many clear advantages over any FMJ bullet out their when we are talking about your majority of self defense shootings. We can argue about barriers, car doors, armor plate, whatever. I don't think that those things are really that big of and issue with the proper hollow point (or controlled expansion round if your prefer.) To each his own I guess but when your sitting on the witness stand and explaining to the prosecutor why you used ammo that has the tendency to over penetrate, and in doing so killed an innocent person across the street after the bullet passed through the perp, don't come crying because I won't feel sorry for you! As far as I'm concerned, anyone who carries FMJ ammo for defense is playing with fire and sooner or later your going to get burned. There is plenty of evidence out there to support my argument and just as much evidence out there to disprove yours. If you want to go against the grain, that's fine. Be different. Go ahead and disregard the real world findings and get yourselves into trouble in the process of being different. Is it worth it? May you be right and I be wrong? Let me ask you this, do you really want to bet on it when the time comes? How confident are you really? You may want to reexamine your position and get with the program! Don't say I didn't warn you. I have said what I wanted to say and I have nothing further to discuss. Thank you for your answer. :cool:


(To each his own I guess but when your sitting on the witness stand and explaining to the prosecutor why you used ammo that has the tendency to over penetrate, and in doing so killed an innocent person across the street after the bullet passed through the perp, don't come crying because I won't feel sorry for you! As far as I'm concerned, anyone who carries FMJ ammo for defense is playing with fire and sooner or later your going to get burned.)

I have something to add, misses are of a higher percent then hits then thru and thru shots are in a self defense shooting so you could find your self just as likely trying to prove you were well trained enough to carry and defend yourself with a gun in the first, then will it really matter what ammo you used?
Some states it's still out lawed to carry anything other then FMJ.
I think no matter what you carry FMJ or HP a trail on a good shoot will have the same out come when you start arguing what kind of ammo you use there are just as many good and bed reasons for either one.
You're best defense is to make damn sure before you pull the trigger that there is absolutely had no other choice because if that is not the case you have no defense no matter what you are using.

I've have trained the usage of firearms for many years and used/carried for many many years now, if you do the research like I have in the past, you will find more innocents are hurt or killed because of missed shots.:supergrin:

happyguy
11-15-2009, 09:55
Some states it's still out lawed to carry anything other then FMJ.


If I lived on one of those states a .45 is all I'd be willing to carry.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

desertdweller
11-15-2009, 10:03
I would be interested to see a documented case of .45 fmj penetrating a perp. and killing another. I have not been able to find one. Thanks.

happyguy
11-15-2009, 10:14
I would be interested to see a documented case of .45 fmj penetrating a perp. and killing another. I have not been able to find one. Thanks.

I remember reading about a shooting years ago where a police officer shot a suspect and the bullet passed through him, ricocheted off the pavement and hit his partner in the groin.

The injured officer didn't die but had the bullet struck the femoral artery he will might have.

Honestly, that is the only instance I can recall of anything like that happening with a .45.

As for documentation I think Ayoob might have written something about it. This happened long before the internet.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Iceman cHucK
11-15-2009, 11:03
Over the past 98 years have you heard of one account of a soldier using his 45 that complained that it was ineffective?

Madmax1010
11-15-2009, 11:16
I would be interested to see a documented case of .45 fmj penetrating a perp. and killing another. I have not been able to find one. Thanks.



+1 on that I can't find anything. But you can find where the perp has been missed and hitting some one else.

Madmax1010
11-15-2009, 11:17
If I lived on one of those states a .45 is all I'd be willing to carry.

Regards,
Happyguy :)


Do you need to carry anything other than a 45?:rofl::wavey:

happyguy
11-15-2009, 11:19
Do you need to carry anything other than a 45?:rofl::wavey:

I'm partial to my 9minimeter.:wavey:

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Madmax1010
11-15-2009, 11:29
I'm partial to my 9minimeter.:wavey:

Regards,
Happyguy :)

I was just sh... around I carry 9mm and 40 and 380 sometimes. A lot of the time I will use 9mm for a bug.:wavey:

cole
11-15-2009, 13:02
Over the past 98 years have you heard of one account of a soldier using his 45 that complained that it was ineffective?

Likely not, because "failures" with .45acp are pretty much blamed on, in this order:
1) Shot placement
2) Target's adrenaline

However, by many of the "bigger is better" camp, "failures" with 9mm are pretty much, blamed on, in this order:
1) Caliber
2) Caliber
3) Caliber
4) Shot placement
5) Target's adrenaline

For OP: There's a very clear advantage in using a modern, reputable 230gr .45acp HP that functions in your gun over any FMJ. However, I'd be fine with FMJ in a .45acp it that's all I had, or, since reliable function is #1, all that worked reliably in my gun. That said, I would not use a .45acp for SD that could not reliable feed HP ammo. So, I of course use HP.

sigcalcatrant
11-15-2009, 13:38
Over the past 98 years have you heard of one account of a soldier using his 45 that complained that it was ineffective?The only thing they had to compare it to were their rifles, and they no doubt realized the .45 ACP wouldn't be as effective.

glocksterr
11-15-2009, 19:05
Here's a pic of a .40cal 180gr slug at 1050ft/sec that got plugged up and did not expand........






exactly the reason i dont shoot the 180's. plus, i dont like the recoil and my guns dont seem to like them either.

just say, in'!


infact 90% of the .40 FTS's are 180's.

dances with guns
11-15-2009, 20:26
Howdy,

+1 on 230gr FMJ in a 45ACP.

Here's a pic of a .40cal 180gr slug at 1050ft/sec that got plugged up and did not expand........

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/53d251cdf0de36b1c4d7cc06898922996494864.JPG




that's why you should stick with the light jhp's in 40cal, and not buy into that 180grn weight is better because of the extra penetration BS. :cool:

for this caliber, i don't go heavier than 165grn jhp.

Dave T
11-15-2009, 20:35
You did state that 45 Ball beat 9mm HP's...


You have me confused with someone else Bub. I never said that or posted it.

The only documented cases of over penetration in LE were when the NYPD first allowed officers to carry 9mms. Being the liberal haven NY is, they naturally couldn't allow those officers to use anything as dangerous to criminals as HPs so FMJ was specified. They had a number of cases of 9mm FMJ going though suspects (sometimes just arms or legs) and hitting cars, buildings and in a few instances people. I read the summery of the NYPD training unit and am confident about this actually happening.

For reasons only understood in cyberspace, this body of fact has been transferred to the use of 45 ACP Ball and now it is universally condemned. Curiouser and curiouser.

Dave

Kentucky Shooter
11-15-2009, 20:54
+1 on the 230 grain FMJ------I use this for carry ammo all the time. I do reload 200grain Lead Round nose for cheap practice though

CPD#125
11-15-2009, 20:59
Having seen 2 shootings with the .45, 1 while I was in the Military and FMJ was used and the other HP was used. The HP shooting was a head shot, through the mouth so no plugging issue. I was not impressed by the performance of the .45 acp.
My first homicide involved a head shot by a .380 and it did a rather nice job, speaking only on the performance of the projectile that is. Since then I had a chance to see shootings by various calibers and I came to the conclusion that placement with a properly constructed bullet matters more than caliber.

PersonOfInterest
11-16-2009, 02:22
Over the past 98 years have you heard of one account of a soldier using his 45 that complained that it was ineffective?
I know of a few who turned down the .45 and chose the 9mm
and for the record there were quite a few US soldiers in Vietnam, Korea and even WW2 that did make that complaint about the .45 not working - just because its not on the internet dosent mean it wasnt happening.

AJSully421
12-07-2009, 19:31
Hell, if you've found something that works for you and you are happy and comfortable with your choice, then I am happy for you.

Nice to see some folks not losing sleep over such issues for once. Life is too short for such nonsense.

Shoot 'til they drop!

I agree... and besides, it is a .45 so nothing else matters.

arizona_andy
12-08-2009, 23:55
Well, if chuck wants to use nothing but .45 ACP FMJ, he can. That's his choice. I personally don't agree with it.

Modern JHPs have come a long way, and I urge you to examine them a bit more closely. I know it's hard to change once you've been doing something for so many years, but give a chance.

Oh, and for the record... Yeah, 3 9mm JHPs will certainly beat 2 .45 FMJ, period. Let's try not to be too silly in here, folks... I know it can be difficult sometimes :)

Jerseycitysteve
12-09-2009, 10:11
Well, if chuck wants to use nothing but .45 ACP FMJ, he can. That's his choice. I personally don't agree with it.

Modern JHPs have come a long way, and I urge you to examine them a bit more closely. I know it's hard to change once you've been doing something for so many years, but give a chance.

Oh, and for the record... Yeah, 3 9mm JHPs will certainly beat 2 .45 FMJ, period. Let's try not to be too silly in here, folks... I know it can be difficult sometimes :)

Excellent post! And for that matter two 9mms will beat one 10mm but then we are entering into matters of faith.

Iceman cHucK
12-12-2009, 09:45
Well, if chuck wants to use nothing but .45 ACP FMJ, he can. That's his choice. I personally don't agree with it.

Modern JHPs have come a long way, and I urge you to examine them a bit more closely. I know it's hard to change once you've been doing something for so many years, but give a chance.

Oh, and for the record... Yeah, 3 9mm JHPs will certainly beat 2 .45 FMJ, period. Let's try not to be too silly in here, folks... I know it can be difficult sometimes :)

Yeah, I guess I will agree to disagree! 45ACP 230 Hardball is tops for reliability, is plenty accurate enougth ; provides superior "gel" and heavy winter clothing penetration; is of a large heavy bullet that will not shrink; has moderate recoil for superior controlability (compared to most +P loads); has been in use by civilians and our military for a little while (98 years or so); and is available most anywhere at a reasonable price for practice and training. For these reasons I think it is the best, all around comprimize 45ACP round. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

Jim S.
12-12-2009, 10:09
I have an old Colt 1911 that only feeds FMJ reliably.
If it were my only carry gun and having it worked on by a good gunsmith were not available to me, I would carry FMJ with confidence.
Bullet placement is more important than bullet performance, and feed reliability is over all the most important thing for a gun used for self defense.
However, if my gun, such as my 21SF fed everything I try in it reliably I would go with a modern hollow point simply because there may be a slight advantage, and there isn't really a disadvantage.

Iceman cHucK
12-12-2009, 10:20
I have an old Colt 1911 that only feeds FMJ reliably.
If it were my only carry gun and having it worked on by a good gunsmith were not available to me, I would carry FMJ with confidence.
Bullet placement is more important than bullet performance, and feed reliability is over all the most important thing for a gun used for self defense.
However, if my gun, such as my 21SF fed everything I try in it reliably I would go with a modern hollow point simply because there may be a slight advantage, and there isn't really a disadvantage.

I have to disagree that there isn't really a disadvantage! Overexpansion in a 45ACP can be! Let me explain. Probably one of the best hollowpoints is the 230 GoldDot. It averages about 12-13 inches in 4layer denim gel tests. I'm not saying this isn't good, but it may not be enough to reach the CNS or vitals in many of people I know. I live in Western PA and it's Steeler country. They grow very big boys here and I've yet to meet one that's anorexic! I want at least 18" of penetration especially when its cold, which is most of the time!

cole
12-12-2009, 11:01
I have to disagree that there isn't really a disadvantage! Overexpansion in a 45ACP can be! Let me explain. Probably one of the best hollowpoints is the 230 GoldDot. It averages about 12-13 inches in 4layer denim gel tests. I'm not saying this isn't good, but it may not be enough to reach the CNS or vitals in many of people I know. I live in Western PA and it's Steeler country. They grow very big boys here and I've yet to meet one that's anorexic! I want at least 18" of penetration especially when its cold, which is most of the time!

What you choose is of course your choice. That said, and I hate to introduce the actual data to subjective bias here, and maybe this is just me, but you just might want to consider using the actual gello test data just in case if you just maybe plan to base a decision off it:
Butte Cloth Speer Gold Dot .45acp 230 13.25 0.64
FBI Cloth Speer Gold Dot .45acp 230 14.30 0.70
ATK-SA Cloth Speer Gold Dot .45acp 230 14.75 0.71
FBI Cloth Speer Gold Dot .45acp 230 18.90 0.59
Average = 15.30 0.66

See signature for links and data.

CanyonMan
12-12-2009, 11:08
This post runs counter to my experience and that of the professional wound ballistics community.

Regards,
Happyguy :)



The post you are reffering to was this one:

Originally Posted by CanyonMan
Well sir, this is the mind set of most people. Unfortunately it is the wrong mind set brought on by internet ramblings, and gun rag mags, instead of 'first hand experience'.

It is not, "while clogged" going to "plow through" as a FMJ would, because it "is clogged," it slows down, therefore it loses it's penatration capibilities. Again, it slows down. As where the FMJ continues unrestricted.

That is the short answer......

Good shooting

CanyonMan






So, just what would 'your experience' be, in that you can convince me that a clogged JHP does not slow down in the human body and thus loose penetration?



CanyonMan

Ak.Hiker
12-13-2009, 00:02
I was testing some Federal Tactical 230 grain +P 45 acp JHP loads the other day for penetration. The first shot clogged and did not expand. It penetrated about the same as the next shot that fully expanded. The third shot was a Double Tap 230 grain flat point FMJ. The FMJ cleared the stump that stopped the expanded JHP as well as the clogged JHP. I have seen this happen many times over the years. I have never seen a JHP plugged or expanded that will go as deep as a FMJ in wood with similar loadings. I have seen the same results with moose leg bones with a stump as a backstop. As far as FMJ bullets go I would not have any problem at all carrying ball in a 45 acp. It may not be the best choice for SD in all 45 acp's but it is sure not a bad choice. I am more likely to carry ball in my Glock 36 and a +P JHP in my 6.5 inch S&W revolver. Except when the S&W goes into the woods than I would go with a 250 cast at 950.

Iceman cHucK
12-13-2009, 09:10
I was testing some Federal Tactical 230 grain +P 45 acp JHP loads the other day for penetration. The first shot clogged and did not expand. It penetrated about the same as the next shot that fully expanded. The third shot was a Double Tap 230 grain flat point FMJ. The FMJ cleared the stump that stopped the expanded JHP as well as the clogged JHP. I have seen this happen many times over the years. I have never seen a JHP plugged or expanded that will go as deep as a FMJ in wood with similar loadings. I have seen the same results with moose leg bones with a stump as a backstop. As far as FMJ bullets go I would not have any problem at all carrying ball in a 45 acp. It may not be the best choice for SD in all 45 acp's but it is sure not a bad choice. I am more likely to carry ball in my Glock 36 and a +P JHP in my 6.5 inch S&W revolver. Except when the S&W goes into the woods than I would go with a 250 cast at 950.

The DT 230fmjfp is my favorite "woods" load for the 45ACP

SIGShooter
12-13-2009, 15:48
I have to disagree that there isn't really a disadvantage! Overexpansion in a 45ACP can be! Let me explain. Probably one of the best hollowpoints is the 230 GoldDot. It averages about 12-13 inches in 4layer denim gel tests. I'm not saying this isn't good, but it may not be enough to reach the CNS or vitals in many of people I know. I live in Western PA and it's Steeler country. They grow very big boys here and I've yet to meet one that's anorexic! I want at least 18" of penetration especially when its cold, which is most of the time!


Well Chuck, I am in NEPA. They definitely ain't small on my side of the river either.

Another reason why FMJ is my usual carry round.

I will carry JHP ammunition at times. But the ball gets the nod 90% of the time in .45 ACP. In 9MM it gets the nod about 50% of the time.

I like the fact that I will get max penetration. Expansion isn't something that's on the top of my list. It's there, I'm just more concerned about the bullet going to where it needs to go.

Really, when you think about it, how many carry rounds do you all fire in a year compared to your "Range" ammo?

I know I don't shoot nearly the amount of carry rounds as I do my other ammo. I know what my FMJ ammo does. I know how well it shoots. I know its limitations. I know how my weapon reacts and acts with it. I know how I react and act with it.

To me, that's the most important thing to know.

If you use Federal American Eagle 230 Gr. FMJ for "Range" ammo but use a 200 Gr. +P GDHP for SD carry and only shoot that particular load every 3 months, how do you know you are proficient with it?

At one time I only used to shoot what I carried. That was when I could go out and buy GDHP by the case and still have money left over to buy a new gun the same day. Not anymore.

Just my personal thoughts and opinions.

CanyonMan
12-13-2009, 20:36
Well Chuck, I am in NEPA. They definitely ain't small on my side of the river either.

Another reason why FMJ is my usual carry round.

I will carry JHP ammunition at times. But the ball gets the nod 90% of the time in .45 ACP. In 9MM it gets the nod about 50% of the time.

I like the fact that I will get max penetration. Expansion isn't something that's on the top of my list. It's there, I'm just more concerned about the bullet going to where it needs to go.

Really, when you think about it, how many carry rounds do you all fire in a year compared to your "Range" ammo?

I know I don't shoot nearly the amount of carry rounds as I do my other ammo. I know what my FMJ ammo does. I know how well it shoots. I know its limitations. I know how my weapon reacts and acts with it. I know how I react and act with it.

To me, that's the most important thing to know.

If you use Federal American Eagle 230 Gr. FMJ for "Range" ammo but use a 200 Gr. +P GDHP for SD carry and only shoot that particular load every 3 months, how do you know you are proficient with it?

At one time I only used to shoot what I carried. That was when I could go out and buy GDHP by the case and still have money left over to buy a new gun the same day. Not anymore.

Just my personal thoughts and opinions.




Thanks !

My thoughts and habits exactly. I have some more reasons and thoughts, but you said it all very well amigo.



Stay Safe.




CanyonMan

Iceman cHucK
12-14-2009, 09:02
Well it's nice to see SIGShooter and CanyonMan agree. Any others?

114 Replies and 2437 views so far which is about the highest other than stickys! Did I strike a nerve?

Ak.Hiker
12-14-2009, 21:11
[QUOTE=Iceman cHucK;14341275]Well it's nice to see SIGShooter and CanyonMan agree. Any others?

114 Replies and 2437 views so far which is about the highest other than stickys! Did I strike a nerve?[/QUOTE
Throw me in as well.

Iceman cHucK
12-15-2009, 08:54
cole

You have your data; I have mine. See thread posted 12-11-2009 here on Caliber Corner
by JBP55 entitled Gold Dot Gelatin Test. Results:

.45 230 12.8" .63 5.0"

Glock19Fan
12-15-2009, 23:06
Here is my most recent test comparing FMJ bullets in 9mm and .45ACP.

Just thought it would fit well in this thread.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1158775

fredj338
12-16-2009, 01:24
I have to disagree that there isn't really a disadvantage! Overexpansion in a 45ACP can be! Let me explain. Probably one of the best hollowpoints is the 230 GoldDot. It averages about 12-13 inches in 4layer denim gel tests. I'm not saying this isn't good, but it may not be enough to reach the CNS or vitals in many of people I know. I live in Western PA and it's Steeler country. They grow very big boys here and I've yet to meet one that's anorexic! I want at least 18" of penetration especially when its cold, which is most of the time!
Then switch to a 200gr or 230grXTP+P. Lots & lots of penetration w/ just enough expansion to make a good wound channel. FMJ make small, slef sealing wounds, even the big 45. JHP, even one that expands minimally, tears it's way through & the wound will bleed more. Faster bleeding, faster end to the fight w/ a non CNS hit.

Alaskapopo
12-16-2009, 01:44
Actually when its cold bullets go deeper because people wear more cloths which inhibits expansion. So if anything you want a bullet that opens up more in the winter. Seen shooting results up here where bullets did not open up much due to the heavy layers of clothes. Mostly from Hydra Shocks. I don't want 18 inches. I want 12 but I want 12 all the time after all barriers. But I don't want more than 16 ever.
Pat

sigcalcatrant
12-16-2009, 07:19
I have to disagree that there isn't really a disadvantage! Overexpansion in a 45ACP can be! Let me explain. Probably one of the best hollowpoints is the 230 GoldDot. It averages about 12-13 inches in 4layer denim gel tests. I'm not saying this isn't good, but it may not be enough to reach the CNS or vitals in many of people I know. I live in Western PA and it's Steeler country. They grow very big boys here and I've yet to meet one that's anorexic! I want at least 18" of penetration especially when its cold, which is most of the time!People aren't any bigger there than they are anywhere else in the U.S. That's absurd.

glocksterr
12-16-2009, 08:17
People aren't any bigger there than they are anywhere else in the U.S. That's absurd.

hee, hee,

the funny part is i dont have a problem with 10" of penetration but others take exception to less than 12".


homogeneous the human body aint! im no jello junkie!

:cool:

Iceman cHucK
12-16-2009, 08:38
Actually when its cold bullets go deeper because people wear more cloths which inhibits expansion. So if anything you want a bullet that opens up more in the winter. Seen shooting results up here where bullets did not open up much due to the heavy layers of clothes. Mostly from Hydra Shocks. I don't want 18 inches. I want 12 but I want 12 all the time after all barriers. But I don't want more than 16 ever.
Pat

Pat,
On the lighter side, I agree that 16" is a good max but here in Pittsburgh you need to add another 2" to get thru extraneous barriers such as a bag of kielbasa and a Primanti Bros. sanwich!!!:rofl:
Chuck

vafish
12-16-2009, 13:37
Everybody needs to carry what they feel comfortable with.

Me I'm more comfortable with a decent JHP than I am with hardball.

It's not worth arguing with someone who has their mind made up on the issue. So we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

CanyonMan
12-16-2009, 18:57
Everybody needs to carry what they feel comfortable with.

Me I'm more comfortable with a decent JHP than I am with hardball.

It's not worth arguing with someone who has their mind made up on the issue. So we're just going to have to agree to disagree.




Amen Vafish. I do prefer the 230 ball in all my 45's, but am not worried about using 230gr GS or GD. What ever a man knows is right for him is what he ought to use. There are some horses that I use for the canyons, and some I would not take there for a million bucks, but some of the other old boys can, and that horse works well for them. But for me, one does a better job than the other, and I have more confidence in him. Ammo is not to much different in a way. If you don't have confidence in it, it ain't worth using no matter how may others use it.



Good shooting.



CanyonMan

beforeobamabans
12-16-2009, 19:28
I'm just happy to know that every single cartridge in my 5,000 round 45 acp inventory of various JHPs and FMJs will kill to SOMEONE'S satisfaction!

FM12
12-20-2009, 21:52
So,whaddya like, 9MM, 40 S&W, or 45? Sorry just HAD to ask!

SiGlockBoy
12-24-2009, 09:08
I would have to side with the 230grn FMJ also. Penetration is fine and shot placement and background is always a concern as to not hurt bystanders.

One thing is also very important and that is just about every 45 firearms is designed with the FMJ in mind for functionality. That's why some guns just don't like HPs. The HPs that do seem to work the best for function tend to have a profile more like a FMJ. My 2cents.

Jim S.
12-24-2009, 11:03
One thing is also very important and that is just about every 45 firearms is designed with the FMJ in mind for functionality. That's why some guns just don't like HPs. The HPs that do seem to work the best for function tend to have a profile more like a FMJ. My 2cents.

My Glock 21SF and my Glock 36 shoot every brand and type of hollow point I've put through them. Over 7000 rounds each and haven't had the first malfunction yet.
I have a Colt 1911 that feeds almost every hollow point and I have one that feeds only FMJ.
Most modern 45's will feed hollow points.
Question???
Has anyone actually had a 45 FMJ go through your intended target?
I've never heard of it or seen it personally.

Bobcatbaseball
12-24-2009, 13:45
I had the Taurus PT745 I beleive it was. Single stack .45 ACP. What a POS!!! It didnt want to feed HST, Ranger, Golden Sabra, WWB hollowpoint, those barnes copper hollow points...I`m sure the list would go on but I spent more money on just that ammo than the gun was worth. I sold it for 200 bucks after 500 rounds and was tickled pink with my new G30. Then I tried hanging that G30 on my 170 lb frame and sold it. G33 on ankle or small of back now. The taurus did feed FMJ like a champ. The trigger mechanism broke after 300 rounds. Their customer service was excellent. I would feel fine with FMJ if I wasn`t launching it from a POS.

Bobcatbaseball
Proud owner of a new Pocket Rocket.

PersonOfInterest
12-24-2009, 19:01
My Glock 21SF and my Glock 36 shoot every brand and type of hollow point I've put through them. Over 7000 rounds each and haven't had the first malfunction yet.
I have a Colt 1911 that feeds almost every hollow point and I have one that feeds only FMJ.
Most modern 45's will feed hollow points.
Question???
Has anyone actually had a 45 FMJ go through your intended target?
I've never heard of it or seen it personally.

Yep ive seen a .45 JHP go through 3 big animals ive shot and been interviewed by police over a shooting where my friend was shot with a .45 and in that case 230gn JHP's where used - they both went through and through - i know because i saw him on the slab and saw photo's of the crime scene.
Cant comment on the FMJ's but in most cases ive seen with the JHP in .45 they mostly perform like FMJ - just commenting.

BFN
01-05-2010, 22:02
I use 230 hardball for penetration. HP will be more effective IF it penetrates to the vitals.

Alaskapopo
01-05-2010, 22:17
I use 230 hardball for penetration. HP will be more effective IF it penetrates to the vitals.

Penetration is not a problem for 45 JHP's. Nearly all of them will go 12 inches or more with easy. Most do more. The average person is 9.5 inches thick front to back. The vitals are half of that distance in.
Pat

BFN
01-05-2010, 22:32
I am aware of the many gel test results for 45 JHP. Is 12 inches on gelatin the same as human? There can be instances of an arm in the way or other obstructions.

In the recent Pierce County, WA murder of 4 police officers, the murderer was shot in the torso "where he should have been hit" per Officer Ed Troyer, the bullet not only did not stop him, but he lived two days before he got what he had coming. The gun used by the officer was reported as Glock 40 caliber, I assume HP. The murderer was reportedly about 5'10" and 250lbs.

Alaskapopo
01-05-2010, 22:42
I know of the many gel test results for 45 JHP. Is 12 inches on gelatin the same as human? There can be instances of an arm in the way or other obstructions.

In the recent Pierce County, WA murder of 4 police officers, the murderer was shot in the torso "where he should have been hit" per Officer Ed Troyer, the bullet not only did not stop him, but he lived two days before he got what he had coming. The gun used by the officer was reported as Glock 40 caliber, I assume HP. The murderer was reportedly about 5'10" and 250lbs.

12 inches covers an arm being in the way that is why the standard is not 9.5 inches. The shooting in Pierce County proves nothing. There are far more documented failures to stop with ball ammo than there are with JHP rounds. Stuff happens.
pat

glocksterr
01-06-2010, 07:32
In the recent Pierce County, WA murder of 4 police officers, the murderer was shot in the torso "where he should have been hit" per Officer Ed Troyer, the bullet not only did not stop him, but he lived two days before he got what he had coming. The gun used by the officer was reported as Glock 40 caliber, I assume HP. The murderer was reportedly about 5'10" and 250lbs.


The shooting in Pierce County proves nothing. There are far more documented failures to stop with ball ammo than there are with JHP rounds. Stuff happens.
pat



http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165641


:whistling:

BFN
01-06-2010, 10:11
Quote by Alaskapopo, "The shooting in Pierce County proves nothing"

Gelatin tests will prove a cartridges effectiveness on jellyfish. A person can poke a finger into gelatin, but cannot poke a finger through the skin, fat, muscle, tendon, and bone of a torso.

I do not believe that a yawing a tumbling 230 grain RNFMJ will leave a neat and clean "self sealing hole" through a torso.

Statistical studies are usually biased and have varying degrees of statistical error.

"Stuff happens", a HP bullet may not penetrate into the vitals of a large BG, for different reasons. A .45 caliber bullet through the heart, lungs, or spinal cord will do the job, if it penetrates that far.

That is why I agree with the OP.

Iceman cHucK
01-06-2010, 13:01
Quote by Alaskapopo, "The shooting in Pierce County proves nothing"

Gelatin tests will prove a cartridges effectiveness on jellyfish. A person can poke a finger into gelatin, but cannot poke a finger through the skin, fat, muscle, tendon, and bone of a torso.

I do not believe that a yawing a tumbling 230 grain RNFMJ will leave a neat and clean "self sealing hole" through a torso.

Statistical studies are usually biased and have varying degrees of statistical error.

"Stuff happens", a HP bullet may not penetrate into the vitals of a large BG, for different reasons. A .45 caliber bullet through the heart, lungs, or spinal cord will do the job, if it penetrates that far.

That is why I agree with the OP.

Could not have said it better! Thanks I now know I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

With this extreme cold weather, the BG could be wearing a heavy leather jacket, insulation, plus layers of cloth. Now , with the arm up you have multiple obstacles of leather/muscle/ bone/ leather before you even get to the center of mass with more leather/insulation/clothing/fat/rib bones/muscle/fat/vitals/cns. All this on a big muscular and/or fat guy make the standard gel test invalid. 9.5 " is a statistic. Is it the mean, median? It is not the range of high to low. Much better to have excess penetration than not enough. Check out the thread here on "observations" by Lookin4U. His observations are real world, not gel junkies. He likes 45fmj for best penetration.

JFWIW I often carry 230fmjFP and HornadyTAP230jhp+P which has a good reputation for deep penetration.

Alaskapopo
01-06-2010, 14:13
It gets pretty cold up here. Heavy clothing inhibits expansion and sometimes stops it all together and JHP's will act like ball. So there is no reason to carry ball in the winter.
Pat

BFN
01-06-2010, 14:44
Because of its shape, the 45 ACP FMJ is more prone to glance off car windows, doors, and possibly skulls at angled hits than FP or HP. This shape can also cause tumbling during tissue penetration.

Some FMJ cartridges used in the military are known for yawing and tumbling upon penetration, with devastating effects. If the center of gravity is towards the rear of the bullet, it is likely to change direction and tumble when entering tissue. If have heard and read where 45 FMJ bullets recovered from bodies are sometimes facing rear forward. I doubt if these effects could be accurately studied in gelatin because of the varying density and hardness of bone, tendon, muscle, etc that could cause yawing and tumbling. I seriously doubt that a 45 FMJ goes through a torso in a straight, neat .45 "self sealing" path.

I would be very interested if anyone would have any detailed information about 230 FMJ bullets tumbling during penetration, in military or LE situations.

Ak.Hiker
01-07-2010, 00:47
I have tested handgun bullet penetration for years in logs, stumps, plywood, moose bones etc. It is not uncommon for jacketed bullets to tumble. The best designs for straight penetration are game bullets. Hardcast LBT and Keith bullets are very good at going straight during penetration. For what its worth 230 ball cuts through moose leg bones with ease while 45 acp JHP designs will expand out with much less penetration but sure cause a lot of damage in the process. Of course none of my testing has anything to do with picking a good SD handgun load but I wanted to mention that it is not uncommon for bullets to tumble.