Dry Fire Training [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Dry Fire Training


Ben Stoeger
11-09-2009, 18:57
Hey guys…

With the help of quite a few shooter type folk we put together a dry fire practice program for USPSA. This would also work just fine for IDPA shooters. It is designed to be simple, and to not require a bunch of stuff.

Check it out HERE (http://benstoeger.myonlineplace.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=46&Itemid=64)

PEC-Memphis
11-09-2009, 23:47
Hey guys…

With the help of quite a few shooter type folk we put together a dry fire practice program for USPSA. This would also work just fine for IDPA shooters. It is designed to be simple, and to not require a bunch of stuff.

Check it out HERE (http://benstoeger.myonlineplace.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=46&Itemid=64)

Hey Ben,

Thanks for the program - can you compile it into a .pdf downloadable document?

Thanks,

ron59
11-10-2009, 08:04
Hey guys…

With the help of quite a few shooter type folk we put together a dry fire practice program for USPSA. This would also work just fine for IDPA shooters. It is designed to be simple, and to not require a bunch of stuff.

Check it out HERE (http://benstoeger.myonlineplace.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=46&Itemid=64)

Hi Ben.... (or anyone else who can help me with this).

I want to improve my shooting, and have been looking for dry fire progams I can practice. But I get confused when I see dry fire programs that include shooting double taps. For example, in the "15 Minute Dry Fire Program", under the Draws header, it says "Draw and engage the target with 2 shots". And then gives times to try and execute that in. What? When I'm shooting LIVE fire, the tough part of a double tap is getting the sights back on target for the second shot, and is the part of my training that most needs work. But with dry fire.... I can pull my trigger once (to simulate first shot), but that's the end of "reality". My gun doesn't recoil, so that doesn't come into play, and my trigger doesn't reset do I can't even activate the trigger a second time.

I can say "bang bang" in my head... but I don't see that as being reality.

Where does the "reality" come into shooting double taps when dry firing? Are you shooting a gun (such as a revolver) that at least allows pulling the trigger multiple times even without live ammo? Because a Glock doesn't do that. You get one trigger press... then you have to rack the slide to do it again. But even if I COULD pull the trigger twice... I'm not sure I would find that effective training as my gun wouldn't jump from recoil between the two pulls.

For me... I work on "presenting" (draw and engaging target) and a "good" trigger squeeze... but that's about the extent of it. And of course I work on reloads as well. But I am totally lost when I see double-taps included as part of dry fire training.

TKOL
11-10-2009, 08:24
Where does the "reality" come into shooting double taps when dry firing? Are you shooting a gun (such as a revolver) that at least allows pulling the trigger multiple times even without live ammo? Because a Glock doesn't do that.

Ben uses a Beretta so he has a double action pull to work with. I shoot USPSA with a wheelgun so that works for me. Some people have started to gravitate to Airsoft as a way to understand sight movement and trigger work.

When I shot my XD I was able to still pull a small amount of trigger pull. If you are using a Glock you will not be able to simulate a second trigger pull with that gun.

An Airsoft Glock would be an effective way to get multiple shots in a training environment without shooting live ammo. Otherwise you wil have to find another method of training to get what you need.

For those that don't know Ben Stoeger is a USPSA Grand Master shooter and is more than qualified to suggest means for dry-fire and training exercises that will do nothing more than improve your shooting.

Ed Deegan
11-10-2009, 08:40
You can insert a small piece of paper between the barrel and slide on a glock creating enough space to allow the multiple trigger squeezes for follow up shots. It just needs to keep the gun from going into battery. It wont be a complete trigger pull (with the hammer falling) but it is a trigger pull.

Second, if you have the chance, post a link to a video of your shooting showing the recoil issues you have. Doesnt have to be a long video, just something for others to see and offer guidance. It might something very simple.

Keep in mind that double taps can be a misnomer, rest assured of the following, Ben see's his sight picture between each shot, enough to do exactly what he wants and knows before ever looking at the target where the round hit.

Thanks Ben for the work you put into this presentation.

WatchmanUSA
11-10-2009, 10:36
You can insert a small piece of paper between the barrel and slide on a glock creating enough space to allow the multiple trigger squeezes for follow up shots. It just needs to keep the gun from going into battery. It wont be a complete trigger pull (with the hammer falling) but it is a trigger pull.

The Dillon Blue Press has an article describing this Glock dry fire technique written by Duane Thomas. Here is the link to the publication: http://www.bridleandbit.net/ebooks/bluepress/bluepressaug09/aug09/object_files/main.swf

Ben Stoeger
11-10-2009, 10:40
Where does the "reality" come into shooting double taps when dry firing? Are you shooting a gun (such as a revolver) that at least allows pulling the trigger multiple times even without live ammo? Because a Glock doesn't do that. You get one trigger press... then you have to rack the slide to do it again. But even if I COULD pull the trigger twice... I'm not sure I would find that effective training as my gun wouldn't jump from recoil between the two pulls.



I must say that when I started dry firing I shared your skepticism. What is the point of “firing multiple rounds” in dry fire? I tried it, and it made a believer out of me. If you hit it hard for a few weeks I am pretty sure you will see an improvement. As someone posted above, there are ways to make your glock trigger work for you during this type of practice.

Well, you are working on everything but recoil control. Trigger finger speed, watching the gun move, watching the sights move, and so forth are all things that you do experience in dry fire.

This is just a training tool... one of many that are out there. It isn’t reality, it is dry fire practice. No more and certainly no less. If you find you hate it and it doesn’t work for you, it isn’t like you are out any money.

ron59
11-10-2009, 12:21
For those that don't know Ben Stoeger is a USPSA Grand Master shooter and is more than qualified to suggest means for dry-fire and training exercises that will do nothing more than improve your shooting.

More than know who he is... I've had his site bookmarked for sometime now. Nothing but respect from me in that regard.

Still doesn't mean I can't question something, does it? I blindly accept nothing from nobody (bad grammar, but you get my point). If it doesn't fit my "world view", I ask questions to see what I'm missing. Doesn't mean disrespect in any way.

ron59
11-10-2009, 12:30
The Dillon Blue Press has an article describing this Glock dry fire technique written by Duane Thomas. Here is the link to the publication: http://www.bridleandbit.net/ebooks/bluepress/bluepressaug09/aug09/object_files/main.swf


EXCELLENT!!! Thank you! I was aware of the "kit" mentioned in the article, and if I can ever get a "spare" G17, might buy one to have even better practice. Don't want to have to detail strip my gun alot though to switch between dry fire and live fire.

But the "cardboard trick" might be just what I was looking for. Thanks!

ron59
11-10-2009, 12:35
I must say that when I started dry firing I shared your skepticism. What is the point of “firing multiple rounds” in dry fire? I tried it, and it made a believer out of me. If you hit it hard for a few weeks I am pretty sure you will see an improvement. As someone posted above, there are ways to make your glock trigger work for you during this type of practice.

Well, you are working on everything but recoil control. Trigger finger speed, watching the gun move, watching the sights move, and so forth are all things that you do experience in dry fire.

This is just a training tool... one of many that are out there. It isn’t reality, it is dry fire practice. No more and certainly no less. If you find you hate it and it doesn’t work for you, it isn’t like you are out any money.

Ben... yes, definitely realized I couldn't work on recoil, but it was that second trigger pull that had me confused. I was aware that revolvers allowed for continually actuating the trigger, but knew I couldn't with my Glock.

With your Baretta, are you able to "fire" the gun multiply in dry fire? Other than my .357 revolver, a Glock is the only semi-auto I've owned... I sort've "assumed" that semi-autos would all need to have the slide cycled to do that?

But no... I DEFINITELY realize I need more dry fire practice (another trick I do is dry fire with my revolver as the trigger pull is MUCH heavier than my Glock... I figure it strengthens my trigger finger?). Again... I just couldn't get past the pull-the-trigger-one-time-with-a-Glock thing, and couldn't mesh that with the "fire two shots" concept.

I'll give that cardboard trick a go tonight and see how that works.

dsmw5142
11-10-2009, 15:40
In Steve Anderson's book 'Refinement and Repetition', he writes that Glock shooters should just continue to press the trigger. With the drills from Steve's book, it is more about timing your reaction to the beep and working on draws, index etc...

Most of the drills in that particular system don't require you to break the trigger at all. I plan on giving Ben's system a try for a while to give me a change of pace and something I can work on indoors on rainy days.

For a good dry fire kit, click on the link below and scroll to the bottom of the page.

http://www.southwestshootingauthority.com/612600.html

BobKat
01-15-2010, 10:38
In Steve Anderson's book 'Refinement and Repetition', he writes that Glock shooters should just continue to press the trigger. With the drills from Steve's book, it is more about timing your reaction to the beep and working on draws, index etc...

Most of the drills in that particular system don't require you to break the trigger at all. I plan on giving Ben's system a try for a while to give me a change of pace and something I can work on indoors on rainy days.

For a good dry fire kit, click on the link below and scroll to the bottom of the page.

http://www.southwestshootingauthority.com/612600.html


Thanks for the link. Great stuff on that site!

HK Dan
01-15-2010, 12:37
I got a look at it through Chris S in Milan, Ben. Well thought out, and it sure has helped his sorry butt.

Dan

Ben Stoeger
01-15-2010, 19:12
I got a look at it through Chris S in Milan, Ben. Well thought out, and it sure has helped his sorry butt.

Dan

Maybe I will be down there to do another class this year... I dunno. I havent heard from Chris yet. He is getting good though isnt he?

HK Dan
01-17-2010, 11:21
Maybe I will be down there to do another class this year... I dunno. I havent heard from Chris yet. He is getting good though isnt he?

I last shot with him at our IDPA match in November. He did okay. After he saw the light and dumped that Godforsaken Sigma he's doing a lot better.

You *should* come up here for Mas Ayoob in March, and again for Rob Pincus in May. LOL

Dan

sigman69
01-18-2010, 22:45
thanks for having a great website Ben!!!

ecmills
01-27-2010, 22:18
What to do with the Glock in dryfire: A small piece of cardboard lets you repeatedly pull the trigger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DvyZvdC2Bs

You're going to question this, too. The trigger feels all wrong. What's important is that you're practicing manipulating it, not how it feels. Try this: don't worry about the recoil, or the trigger pull. Gimmick the gun with a scrap of paper, and dryfire for 15-30 minutes a day for a week. Now go to the range and shoot.

If the difference doesn't surprise you, you will be the very first person I've ever heard that was disappointed. :)

jhayesvw
01-28-2010, 21:08
any chance of this cardboard trick hurting the gun at all?

ecmills
01-29-2010, 22:12
Not really. Never hurt mine.

jhayesvw
01-30-2010, 00:26
so, does the firing pin slam into the safety plunger?
if so, i would think that would damage the pin over time.

if nothing internal moves, then GAME ON!! i will be trying it.
thanks

ecmills
02-05-2010, 22:56
You are pulling the gun just far enough that the striker is never dropped. You are pulling it to the rear as you press the trigger... it cannot move far enough back for the trigger bar to drop out from under the striker... and as you release the trigger, the striker returns to it's original position.

It's really far easier on the gun than actually firing it.

IWillNotBeAVictim
02-05-2010, 23:19
Hi Ben.... (or anyone else who can help me with this).

I want to improve my shooting, and have been looking for dry fire progams I can practice. But I get confused when I see dry fire programs that include shooting double taps. For example, in the "15 Minute Dry Fire Program", under the Draws header, it says "Draw and engage the target with 2 shots". And then gives times to try and execute that in. What? When I'm shooting LIVE fire, the tough part of a double tap is getting the sights back on target for the second shot, and is the part of my training that most needs work. But with dry fire.... I can pull my trigger once (to simulate first shot), but that's the end of "reality". My gun doesn't recoil, so that doesn't come into play, and my trigger doesn't reset do I can't even activate the trigger a second time.

I can say "bang bang" in my head... but I don't see that as being reality.

Where does the "reality" come into shooting double taps when dry firing? Are you shooting a gun (such as a revolver) that at least allows pulling the trigger multiple times even without live ammo? Because a Glock doesn't do that. You get one trigger press... then you have to rack the slide to do it again. But even if I COULD pull the trigger twice... I'm not sure I would find that effective training as my gun wouldn't jump from recoil between the two pulls.

For me... I work on "presenting" (draw and engaging target) and a "good" trigger squeeze... but that's about the extent of it. And of course I work on reloads as well. But I am totally lost when I see double-taps included as part of dry fire training.

What must be understood is that each shooter is limited by how fast he/ she can acquire the front sights. The older we get, the longer it will take.

1. be sure you are using a masters thumb forward grip.
2. Master Push.Pull. Squeeze. Hold the trigger down firmly until your target has been hit. Then an only then allow the Glock trigger reset to occur.
3. acquire target. acquire clear front sight. align sights. squeeze trigger. hold front sight on target through the entire shot, do not flinch, you must learn to keep your eyes open while a violent explosion occurs inches in front of your face(hardest aprt)
4. I like to Acquire trigger reset while bringing front sight down back onto target, front sight on target once again squeeze, and repeat. You can onely squeeze the trigger as fast as you can clearly acquire the front sight.

I use a self-defense isosceles stance with armslocked straight out. Although locking arms may cause barrel to rise slightly more than bent arms, my shots will be guaranteed to be straight-on during a "stress-fire" I'm going to die if I don't hit my target scenario.

* Remember not all tactics good for competition are good for self-defense and vice-versa. Example using slide lock with thumb to drop the slide is a comp only move.
I have decided that when I compete that I will continue to use self defense shooting techniques that may add a second or two to my time, but will help keep me alive in case I ever have to use my weapon for such occasion.

Mattog22
02-06-2010, 08:44
Good info guys, this thread has been a great help.

jhayesvw
02-06-2010, 20:25
You are pulling the gun just far enough that the striker is never dropped. You are pulling it to the rear as you press the trigger... it cannot move far enough back for the trigger bar to drop out from under the striker... and as you release the trigger, the striker returns to it's original position.

It's really far easier on the gun than actually firing it.

thanks for the info. i will give this a shot then.
i will also report back.