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horge
11-22-2009, 00:10
I don't want to influence the response, so how would you answer,
in phrase or sentence form, and in Bisaya (preferably the Bisaya
spoken in Panay), this question:

"What are these?" (pointing at the objects below)
http://i50.tinypic.com/112h6kj.jpg

I'm trying to resolve what I think is a 16th century mistranscription.
Thanks a lot for any assistance.

:)
horge

bikethief
11-22-2009, 02:19
"Anitch itich?"
"Kabibe, 'day."
"Tarush!"

horge
11-22-2009, 02:29
LOL...

Well that didn't work, haha :)
They're called "sigay" even in Bisaya, are they not?

However...
a Spanish Relacion of 1582 refers to them as "bruscay", and I'm trying to
phonetically rip "bruscay" apart into "bru" and "scay" (sigay), but this has
to be in Bisaya. The account was referring to the island of Panay.

If you can help me figure out what was misheard as the "bru" in "bruscay",
I'll be a very happy little piggy!

:)
h.

akula
11-22-2009, 06:47
H. ... also know as 'sigay' here locally (in Cebuano). I did asked our help.

darwin25
11-22-2009, 19:25
Bruscay

Bruhang siga. aaaayyy!

Chorvah

genderk
11-22-2009, 21:36
bro, Bisaya spoken in Panay is locally referred as "Hiligaynon or Ilonggo" which is the dialect of Iloilo province and Negros Occidental. While Negros Oriental and Cebu use the other kind of dialect also known as "Bisaya" that is also used in Gen San, some parts of Mindanao and some neighboring islands of Cebu Island. Anyway, the images in the picture are called "Sigay" in Iloilo and Bacolod. To answer the question, would it be possible that they referred to as "duru sigay?". "Duru" means "many" in Hiligaynon/ Ilonggo, since the picture has "many" of those and not just one.

genderk
11-22-2009, 21:44
One town in Iloilo called "Dumangas" I heard was from "Duru" which means many, and from "Manggas" which means mangos. Altogether they mean "many mangos", but later on pronounced as "Dumangas". The story started when a spanish (part of Magellan's group) asked a native the name of the town. The native (a mango retailer) thinking that the spanish was asking what he was selling replied " Manggas". The name later on was developed "Dumangas" since he saw a lot (duru) of Manggas.

bikethief
11-22-2009, 22:03
Really interested where you're going with this, mister horge.

horge
11-22-2009, 23:07
bro, Bisaya spoken in Panay is locally referred as "Hiligaynon or Ilonggo" which is the dialect of Iloilo province and Negros Occidental. While Negros Oriental and Cebu use the other kind of dialect also known as "Bisaya" that is also used in Gen San, some parts of Mindanao and some neighboring islands of Cebu Island. Anyway, the images in the picture are called "Sigay" in Iloilo and Bacolod. To answer the question, would it be possible that they referred to as "duru sigay?". "Duru" means "many" in Hiligaynon/ Ilonggo, since the picture has "many" of those and not just one.

That's very intriguing, thank you very much.
PM me your real name so I can cite you properly, if you wish.
It's for a research paper. :)

MERCMADE
11-23-2009, 02:54
"Anitch itich?"
"Kabibe, 'day."
"Tarush!"

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

cebuboy
11-23-2009, 04:06
Those are sigay shells, used to play with them when I was a kid. Tie them with strings and take turns striking each others sigay winner is the one with the intact sigay. :)

Clusterbomb
11-24-2009, 02:48
OT: I've been itching to ask this for a long time here. Please don't flame me, I just honestly want to learn (I'm a taal-na-Tagalog).

A dialect is defined as a variation of a language. If Ilonggo is a dialect as genderk said, it is a variation of what language? Or should it be considered as a separate language alongside Cebuano? Is Cebuano a dialect or a language? I've always been under the impression that Bisaya IS Cebuano.

Also, what is Kinaray-a? (did I get that right?)

I think I wouldn't be asking this if i had married that pretty classmate of mine from Iloilo way back in my UP days, ha-ha. But alas, it was not to be.

genderk
11-24-2009, 13:25
nice discussion bros...bro cluster, muntik ka na palang madali ng Ilonggo a?...Anyway, back to our topic, my understanding of the term "dialect" as what bro cluster mentioned is a variation of a language "but only in the Philippines" and do not apply worldwide. Tagalog- called Filipino language worldwide, is the language of Filipinos while other dialects spoken in every region in the Philippines are called "dialects". Dialects are the sub-languages, or subordinate of a National Language (Tagalog in our case in the Philippines). Dialect is more of a regional speech rather than a nation as a whole. IMO, Bisaya is the dialect of Cebuanos (people of Cebu) while it is also used by some other regions in Mindanao especially. Although "Cebuano" is also refered to as a dialect- and does not only means "people from Cebu". Just like "Filipino" being referred to the language in the Philippines (worldwide), while it should be Tagalog. Technically, the term "Filipino" should be referred to as people of the Philippines.

"Ilonggo" in my opinion should also be referred to as people from Iloilo, while the dialect should be referred to as "Hiligaynon"- the dialect of Iloilo province, Guimaras province, some parts of Mindanao (Cotabato), and Negros Occidental. Although it goes either way.

Karay-a (or Kinaray-a) is a dialect used mainly in Antique province, and some towns in Iloilo province.

Tagalog is known worldwide as the Filipino language, while the rest spoken in the Philippines are subordinates of it...and are called "dialect"...just my opinion...tnx.

genderk
11-24-2009, 13:31
That's very intriguing, thank you very much.
PM me your real name so I can cite you properly, if you wish.
It's for a research paper. :)

bro, I"ll send u a PM...on the other hand, we have "Colloquialism" in the Philippines including our "Baybayin" that some words were only used as a form of expression, and not in a formal or written speech...or my first theory could be possible as well. Tnx.

presidingglock
11-24-2009, 19:27
Tagalog- called Filipino language worldwide, is the language of Filipinos while other dialects spoken in every region in the Philippines are called "dialects". Dialects are the sub-languages, or subordinate of a National Language (Tagalog in our case in the Philippines). Dialect is more of a regional speech rather than a nation as a whole. IMO, Bisaya is the dialect of Cebuanos (people of Cebu) while it is also used by some other regions in Mindanao especially. Although "Cebuano" is also refered to as a dialect- and does not only means "people from Cebu". Just like "Filipino" being referred to the language in the Philippines (worldwide), while it should be Tagalog. Technically, the term "Filipino" should be referred to as people of the Philippines.

Tagalog is known worldwide as the Filipino language, while the rest spoken in the Philippines are subordinates of it...and are called "dialect"...just my opinion...tnx.

Bro under our Constitution, Filipino is not synonymous with Tagalog. Tagalog is just one of the dialects in the Philippines. The national language (Filipino) is still evolving and should be composed of the different dialects used nationwide not just Tagalog. So technically Filipino refers to both the national language and a citizen of the Philippines.

horge
11-24-2009, 22:01
Just so you know what particular manuscript I'm looking at,
it's Miguel de Loarca's 1582 Relacion de las Yslas Filipinas
(AGI : Simancas-Filipinas; descubrimientos, descripciones
y poblaciones de las Yslas Filipinas; años 1537 á 1565- 1.o hay 2.o :
estante 1 : cajon 1 : legajo 1/23)

The pertinent passage reads:

“...solian acudir alli muçhos nauios de burney para el Rescate del
bruscay que son vnos çiertos caracolillos qe heçha la mar ques
moneda en Sian como El cacao en la nueva españa...”

(“Formerly many ships of Borneo were wont to come here to barter for
bruscay,which are a kind of seashells which in Siam is used as money,
like the cacao bean in New Spain”)

Other sources (from 1583 and 1591) adopt the term siguey or sigaye,
with respect to the same seashells, observed in Panay and in Manila.


:)

atmarcella
11-25-2009, 01:55
h,

maybe those shells are from boracay, hence boracay sigay or bruscay for short hehehehe.

fish!

atmarcella
11-25-2009, 01:58
btw, those sigay's in the pic are tough m'fers. we called them viking. bawal sa laro mga yun hehehehe.

horge
11-25-2009, 04:06
Viking? lol.... :)

horge
11-25-2009, 05:09
Bro under our Constitution, Filipino is not synonymous with Tagalog. Tagalog is just one of the dialects in the Philippines. The national language (Filipino) is still evolving and should be composed of the different dialects used nationwide not just Tagalog. So technically Filipino refers to both the national language and a citizen of the Philippines.

IMO lang, ha?
Bisaya, Tagalog, Pangalatoc, Ilokano, etc... are distinct languages.
Some of those have distinct dialects under them.

There are other reasons, as I've discussed before, but I think this is one
more reason why Tagalog got the nod as basis for our national language,
over Bisaya. Debatable which had more native speakers, but Tagalog was
less fractured into different dialects.

Kasi nga Luzon is contiguous, whereas the Visayas is geographically
fragmented. Accelerated tuloy ang divergence ng linguistic evolution sa
mga separate Visayan islands. Minsan pa nga ngayon, away-away pa,
over which Visayan dialect is the "true" Bisaya.

h.

presidingglock
11-25-2009, 05:46
That could be the reason H, but being the basis of our national language does not make it Filipino since the latter is supposed to be an integration of other languages and dialects of the country.

presidingglock
11-25-2009, 06:00
Sorry for the OT by the way.

atmarcella
11-25-2009, 19:58
me thinks tagalog got the nod bcos manila was made the capital city by the americans and the flips who ruled after the joe's. tagalog is the language of manila. bcos strictly speaking it is northern tagalog. i guess i know bcos i live in southern tagalog.

now.... imo, why is it a mistake to have a national language?

bcos language is culture. culture answers the question "who are you?". it is identity. identity is necessary is every human being. if you do not know who you are then... who are you?

identity is like religion. man cannot live w/o one. it is part of a person core. it is in his gut.

having a national bird, flower, etc. is fine. after all, what is a flower? a plant. a bird? an animal.


what is language? it is identity. it is culture.


to have favoritism in language is just like saying this tribe is superior to that tribe. that is a bad move. thats why we are not united. that why we are weak.

now, it is fine for me to speak tagalog when i am in manila. but when a tagalog goes to iloilo and speaks to me still in tagalog.... i answer in the language of iloilo, if he understand s then fine, thats a start. eventually you'll learn, as what happened to a friend of mine. im sure by now he is very good at it.


but im still against having a national language.

Clusterbomb
11-25-2009, 20:29
IMO lang, ha?
Bisaya, Tagalog, Pangalatoc, Ilokano, etc... are distinct languages.
Some of those have distinct dialects under them.

There are other reasons, as I've discussed before, but I think this is one
more reason why Tagalog got the nod as basis for our national language,
over Bisaya. Debatable which had more native speakers, but Tagalog was
less fractured into different dialects.

Kasi nga Luzon is contiguous, whereas the Visayas is geographically
fragmented. Accelerated tuloy ang divergence ng linguistic evolution sa
mga separate Visayan islands. Minsan pa nga ngayon, away-away pa,
over which Visayan dialect is the "true" Bisaya.

h.

Yes Bisaya, Tagalog, Pangalatoc, Ilokano, etc are languages.

Tagalog has its dialects- the one they speak in Bulacan has differences from the one spoken in say, Batangas. Not just in certain words or terminologies but even in conjugation of verbs. Listen to how Batanguenos conjugate verbs in the present and imperative tense and you will see that it is different from what we normally hear here in Manila or in Bulacan. But still, a "taal na Bulakenyo" can carry a meaningful conversation with a "taal na Batangueno" without difficulty.

Manileño: "Kumakain ka ba ng kuhol?"
Batangueño: "Ikaw ba gay nakain ng kuhol?" (Sounds like the escargot devoured the man)

Manileño: "Itulak mo! Itulak mo!"
Batangueño: "Tulake! Tulake!"

horge
11-25-2009, 21:47
I'd be fine, as long as the national lingo wasn't Pangalatoc.
I'd go insane trying to learn THAT.
;)

Clusterbomb
11-25-2009, 22:40
Ever been to Bolinao in the northwest tip of Pangasinan? Iba pa rin yung salita ng mga tao dun- they call it Sambal.

genderk
11-26-2009, 00:11
Bro under our Constitution, Filipino is not synonymous with Tagalog. Tagalog is just one of the dialects in the Philippines. The national language (Filipino) is still evolving and should be composed of the different dialects used nationwide not just Tagalog. So technically Filipino refers to both the national language and a citizen of the Philippines.

You got me to research on this one bro Presiding..., I really thought somehow, some time ago during the Marcos regime, ex-Pres. Marcos made Tagalog as our National language considering the fact that it is the only language/dialect in the Philippines used in schools (as in Pilipino subject), and for Nationality as well as "uniformity of speech". But thanks for bringing that up, maybe I should say Tagalog being one of the major languages used in the Philippines (especially in schools) aside from English.

genderk
11-26-2009, 00:14
Yes Bisaya, Tagalog, Pangalatoc, Ilokano, etc are languages.

Tagalog has its dialects- the one they speak in Bulacan has differences from the one spoken in say, Batangas. Not just in certain words or terminologies but even in conjugation of verbs. Listen to how Batanguenos conjugate verbs in the present and imperative tense and you will see that it is different from what we normally hear here in Manila or in Bulacan. But still, a "taal na Bulakenyo" can carry a meaningful conversation with a "taal na Batangueno" without difficulty.

Manileño: "Kumakain ka ba ng kuhol?"
Batangueño: "Ikaw ba gay nakain ng kuhol?" (Sounds like the escargot devoured the man)



Manileño: "Itulak mo! Itulak mo!"
Batangueño: "Tulake! Tulake!"

Nice information bro...

nrmcolt
11-26-2009, 02:20
Bruscay

Bruhang siga. aaaayyy!

Chorvah

:supergrin:

dinggaling
11-29-2009, 03:47
IMO lang, ha?
Bisaya, Tagalog, Pangalatoc, Ilokano, etc... are distinct languages.
Some of those have distinct dialects under them.

There are other reasons, as I've discussed before, but I think this is one
more reason why Tagalog got the nod as basis for our national language,
over Bisaya. Debatable which had more native speakers, but Tagalog was
less fractured into different dialects.

Kasi nga Luzon is contiguous, whereas the Visayas is geographically
fragmented. Accelerated tuloy ang divergence ng linguistic evolution sa
mga separate Visayan islands. Minsan pa nga ngayon, away-away pa,
over which Visayan dialect is the "true" Bisaya.

h.
Bisaya is the dialect spoken by our brothers in Cebu and parts of Mindanao, what we speak in the Panay Islands is dominantly "Hiligaynon" also referred to as the "Ilonggo" dialect of Iloilo, Negros and other parts. Karay-a is another dialect used in other towns of Iloilo. Antique and Aklan also have their own distinct dialect. as a matter of reference yata some people refer to our countrymen down south as "mga bisaya." :cool:

yes H those are "sigay" shells!

mymini40
12-07-2009, 10:17
One town in Iloilo called "Dumangas" I heard was from "Duru" which means many, and from "Manggas" which means mangos. Altogether they mean "many mangos", but later on pronounced as "Dumangas". The story started when a spanish (part of Magellan's group) asked a native the name of the town. The native (a mango retailer) thinking that the spanish was asking what he was selling replied " Manggas". The name later on was developed "Dumangas" since he saw a lot (duru) of Manggas.
gapalagpat ka lang imo.

jerrytrini
12-07-2009, 16:54
Ever been to Bolinao in the northwest tip of Pangasinan? Iba pa rin yung salita ng mga tao dun- they call it Sambal.

Zambal is the dialect in Botolan all the way north to Santa Cruz, Zambales.
Variations are evident from town to town. Example: oybon is baby carabao in Botolan Zambal but then oybon means egg in Iba, Palauig, Candelaria, Masinloc, Candelaria and Santa Cruz. The dictions also vary. The people of Santa Cruz sound more "malambing" where the Botolan townfolk sound more assertive.

The Bolinao people, rumor has it that they migrated from Zambales and established this community. The Zambal dialect stayed with them amongst the Pangalato and Ilocano speakers.

atmarcella
12-07-2009, 20:09
gapalagpat ka lang imo.

klaroha gani part. daw taga didto ka man hehehe. me mga kilala ko didto mga duremdes.

royal glockster
12-09-2009, 09:11
I met several people from visayas and mindanao regions and they call themselves "bisaya" yet they spoke different dialects. I tend to believe that "bisaya" is a group of dialects sub-divided into three major dialects:cebuano, hiligaynon, and waray, the majority of which are the cebuanos which could be the reason why the word "bisaya" immediately connotes a cebuano-speaking individual.

flash1919
12-09-2009, 16:09
here in mindanao, bisaya from cotabato area are mostly ilongos while those from zamboanga and misamis area are cebuano

mymini40
12-10-2009, 16:32
klaroha gani part. daw taga didto ka man hehehe. me mga kilala ko didto mga duremdes.
Duremdes from the town of Dumangas?? Know a few.

atmarcella
12-10-2009, 19:06
si bart, upod kami nag dentistry sa doctors. mayo mag hampang basketball man.