SBR AR. Waste of $$ or Awesome?? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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RyanExtra
12-02-2009, 01:00
So is a short barreled AR the ultimate home defense weapon or a huge waste of cash?

Just to clarify what I am talking about would be a AR pistol but with a stock. Like this but in 5.56 mm

http://www.digitalperf.com/photo/albums/userpics/10001/g9mm.jpg

jjtroutbum
12-02-2009, 01:12
I'm gonna build a pistol. Thinking more like a 10.5" barrel. And later if I want Uncle sugars permission I may go SBR. But that isn't likely. Single point sling and a good "cheek" weld. Will make it plenty accurate for a truck gun.

Besides I love loud scarry looking things that upset fuds and pantie wetters.

mitchshrader
12-02-2009, 01:18
without custom ammo, less effective than optimum. would it work? i dunno, try a few rounds indoors WITH hearing protection, then decide if you want to be deaf.

think about it some.

Graves
12-02-2009, 01:31
An SBR AR for HD? I guess it would be ok if you didn't have neighbors, kids, and didn't give a rats ass about your hearing.

ctaggart
12-02-2009, 02:51
An SBR AR for HD? I guess it would be ok if you didn't have neighbors, kids, and didn't give a rats ass about your hearing.

If you're in a situation that dictates using your SBR for self defense, you're probably not even going to have ringing ears after you're finished firing, providing you're still alive of course. I've never had my ears ring after shooting a deer while hunting with my .308. Now, if I fire that same gun at the range, my ears ring for the entire day. I don't know how this works, it just does.

And who the hell cares about if the neighbors get disturbed...you're shooting somebody to save your damn life! They can wake up for that.

gleasonb
12-02-2009, 02:53
here we go again... :upeyes:

Not much different than a .357, .40 or 10mm ect if your talking penetration... And I agree w/ above, Id rather be alive with a busted ear drum than pushing flowers

I have a Noveske SBR on order and Im planning on using it as a HD tool. I hope its worth it or I did waste a LOT of $. I say go for it.

mitchshrader
12-02-2009, 03:58
the three main criteria for home self defense is have a warning system, dog is acceptable, have a loaded firearm and be committed to shoot at identified threats till there's no threat.

weapon description matters not much. observant, prepared, and a committed mindset are 99.+ %. A single shot shotgun and three shells is not unarmed, and having a belt fed after 5 beers is suicidal lack of forethought. To pay for 3000 ft per second ammo and castrate it to the low 2000s isn't smart no matter HOW much fun you have.

Defense isn't range toy. Never has been. Fun is plenty excuse for any legal gun. Why put frills around it? Nobody cares. God save me from folks think a 2 foot fireball in a public range makes them more manly.

Keeps me to hell off the range, so I guess I oughta thank em for saving me money, but I ain't that forgiving. Remind me again how many hundreds of dollars yer gonna spend on training and fun ammo? Or is that gonna be irrelevant? Use the bluidy gun you've trained with most, with affordable reliable ammo, and go shoot every week.

done. and if you think you're in danger from humans, lemme ask you how you're fixed for fire dangers? Which are a bunch more likely to surprise ya...would you cut the hose in half on a fire extinguisher to be cooler?

LOOK UP SUCCESSFUL SD EVENTS LAST 5 YEARS.

don't take my word for it. i didn't. chopping AR's is generally as smart as chopping shotguns without a ruler and equally justifiable, or they'd ISSUE 'em.

And you ain't likely to change my mind, after four marriages it takes a lot. Stubborn I do right well.

Took me 30 years and a good talkin' to, not to mention an ammo shortage, to make me buy a .22 pistol.

You wanna convince me SBR AR's are SMART, get up real early and pack a lunch. Fun I'll give ya free. Smart, you gotta prove and ya can't.

Minnow
12-02-2009, 04:10
Hell ya their cool. It's gonna be a noisy critter though. I think I would prefer the longer 10.5- 11.5" in the rifle though. Better velocity, more range, and a longer sight radius. I got one on my wish list.

mitchshrader
12-02-2009, 04:39
you know what a 125 gr .357 mag does at point blank range from a carbine? how about a full strength 12 gauge slug? Or a .30-06 carbine? bad news, all 3.

ya wanna know my go to? a steenkin service .38 that I can bounce cans with. ya know what's second? Another one. Now WHY would I use such an ineffective weapon?

Got bettin' money? No free lessons. glock with nightsights and a light, an extended mag, and I'll stand and cheer for ya. Longarms are unnecessarily powerful and generally slower to acquire the initial target. FIRST COUNTS. Bring the gun with which you're most accurate , and fastest if possible, at combat ranges indoors. If it's truly an sbr AR and you can bring it into action faster'n a handgun you're a fluke.

feh.

keninnavarre
12-02-2009, 05:01
So is a short barreled AR the ultimate home defense weapon or a huge waste of cash?

Just to clarify what I am talking about would be a AR pistol but with a stock. Like this but in 5.56 mm

http://www.digitalperf.com/photo/albums/userpics/10001/g9mm.jpg

I have a 10.5 inch ar pistol. If I did an sbr, and added a stock, I wouldnt consider it the "ultimate" home defense weapon. Too loud, too much flash. I'll keep my carbine length barrel, with Surefire light for home defense. A sbr ar in 5.56 is much different than shooting a deer rifle. Touch off a few rounds in a enclosed area, see what I mean. Ive shot my ar pistol in a clay pit, with tall walls, WITH ear protection. Too much concussion for me. I would think your sight (flash) and hearing (concussion) would be important things to keep in a defense situation...

KDawg0007
12-02-2009, 05:12
SBR's are cool and they can work for HD, in short range engagements. That's about it. This isn't a caliber war.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Shorties are loud, crass, and shoot a two foot muzzle blast. Just like a Harley with custom pipes. My .02 is SBR's get an awesome vote. <o:p></o:p>

phxfa
12-02-2009, 08:06
I dont have the link, but if you want a SBR in an AR platform, look at a LWRC PSD in 6.8,,,this round was designed for short barreled applications $2200.00 plus stamp at SGC

Javelin
12-02-2009, 08:43
the three main criteria for home self defense is have a warning system, dog is acceptable, have a loaded firearm and be committed to shoot at identified threats till there's no threat.

weapon description matters not much. observant, prepared, and a committed mindset are 99.+ %. A single shot shotgun and three shells is not unarmed, and having a belt fed after 5 beers is suicidal lack of forethought. To pay for 3000 ft per second ammo and castrate it to the low 2000s isn't smart no matter HOW much fun you have.

Defense isn't range toy. Never has been. Fun is plenty excuse for any legal gun. Why put frills around it? Nobody cares. God save me from folks think a 2 foot fireball in a public range makes them more manly.

Keeps me to hell off the range, so I guess I oughta thank em for saving me money, but I ain't that forgiving. Remind me again how many hundreds of dollars yer gonna spend on training and fun ammo? Or is that gonna be irrelevant? Use the bluidy gun you've trained with most, with affordable reliable ammo, and go shoot every week.

done. and if you think you're in danger from humans, lemme ask you how you're fixed for fire dangers? Which are a bunch more likely to surprise ya...would you cut the hose in half on a fire extinguisher to be cooler?

LOOK UP SUCCESSFUL SD EVENTS LAST 5 YEARS.

don't take my word for it. i didn't. chopping AR's is generally as smart as chopping shotguns without a ruler and equally justifiable, or they'd ISSUE 'em.

And you ain't likely to change my mind, after four marriages it takes a lot. Stubborn I do right well.

Took me 30 years and a good talkin' to, not to mention an ammo shortage, to make me buy a .22 pistol.

You wanna convince me SBR AR's are SMART, get up real early and pack a lunch. Fun I'll give ya free. Smart, you gotta prove and ya can't.

I'll agree with the stubborn part. :upeyes:

TimP
12-02-2009, 09:03
in a self defense situation where shots are fired at you and by you, I promise you WILL NOT remember the blast/noise or the recoil. Unfortunately I know that all too well.

back on topic

A SBR makes a fine HD weapon, so long as you know that weapon, and have put in the time to train with that weapon. Whatever weapon you decide to use for HD is your choice. Just make sure you have put in the time with that weapon to that when the time comes to use it, you have mastered it.

To the folks that say the SBR is a poor choice, have you ever used an SBR in a shoothouse? Heck, have you ever used a shoothouse or trained in any type of close quarters facility. Im not saying that you cant use a 14.5 or 16 brl carbine in that situation, because you can. But based on my first hand personal experience I am much quicker, and much more efficient with my SBR than I am with my 16 or 18 carbine.

Oh, and to all you folks complaining that SBR's are loud. Yeah they are. They are guns. Guns are loud. Get over it, or find a new hobby.

respectfully
Tim

Javelin
12-02-2009, 09:03
I am going to clear out some of the vapors that are left behind from everyone crapping in this thread.

FACT:
- SBR ARs are not for everyone. Even in the military, only the SF and elite ops units get them
- SBR ARs do not carry the same muzzle energy as those with 16", 18", or 20"
- SBR ARs <10" suffer severe velocity loss and bullets do not reliably stabilize
- SBR ARs are loud and do have a large fireball due to unburned powder

But wait there's more:
- SBR ARs 10"+ are ideal for suppressing and can be made hearing safe while still <16" OAL
- Using heavier ammo (75gr.) gives SBR ARs more punch and fragmentation out to 200m
- 6.8mm is an option. Just know that there are reports of extraction issues.
- Quality ARs such as Noveske, LMT, LWRC, etc give reliability to the SBR platform
- Gas blowback while using a suppressor is awful, recommend a Noveske Switchblock


A quality SBR is a specialized tool to work in and around buildings, vehicles, while being able to perform 200m shots with reliable fragmentation. Accuracy is not effected by a 10.5" barrel, only velocity so you can shoot out to 400 yards if you wish but your bullet will probably not fragment as you would like it to.

Here is mine. If anyone wishes to say that it is inferior to theirs please go right ahead. I'm all ears.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5339/noveske4banothersidevie.jpg

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5254/noveske7suppressorsidev.jpg

mvician
12-02-2009, 09:19
For all you who think .223/5.56 will exit your house and penetrate your neighbors house. The bullet would be lucky to make it out of your house after going through 2 sheets of drywall.


http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/ammunition.html

sgtlmj
12-02-2009, 10:26
Get an AUG. About the same length as a 10" bbl'ed AR, but you get a 16" bbl.

http://gallery.me.com/sgtlmj/100169/IMG_2000.jpg?derivative=medium&source=web.jpg&type=medium&ver=12597710830001

pleaforwar
12-02-2009, 10:36
Get an AUG. About the same length as a 10" bbl'ed AR, but you get a 16" bbl.

http://gallery.me.com/sgtlmj/100169/IMG_2000.jpg?derivative=medium&source=web.jpg&type=medium&ver=12597710830001

An AUG or a MSAR is an excellent choice if you decide you don't want to go the SBR route. :thumbsup:

I have a 7.5 SBR, and I love it. That being said, I don't think I can ever consider it a primary source of self-defense, even if it were suppressed. If you go the SBR route, I would personally get an 11.5 SBR. Better ballistic results and a whole lot more companies willing to warranty a suppressor on it. :thumbsup:

edrobert
12-02-2009, 11:00
I prefer pistol caliber AR's for HD......32rds on 9mm can be quite effective and it won't make me deaf :)

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/IMG_3752.jpg

pleaforwar
12-02-2009, 11:01
I prefer pistol caliber AR's for HD

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/IMG_3752.jpg

Very nice! :supergrin:

Javelin
12-02-2009, 11:13
I prefer pistol caliber AR's for HD......32rds on 9mm can be quite effective and it won't make me deaf :)

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/IMG_3752.jpg

That is a very nice set up. RRA upper?

:wavey:

Kegel
12-02-2009, 12:07
So is a short barreled AR the ultimate home defense weapon or a huge waste of cash?

Just to clarify what I am talking about would be a AR pistol but with a stock. Like this but in 5.56 mm

http://www.digitalperf.com/photo/albums/userpics/10001/g9mm.jpg


Not unless you want to kill the neighbors and go deaf.

TimP
12-02-2009, 12:18
Not unless you want to kill the neighbors and go deaf.

mother mary and the saints, some folks just don't get it. :faint:

deaf or dead. the choice is yours

HAIL CAESAR
12-02-2009, 12:35
I prefer pistol caliber AR's for HD......32rds on 9mm can be quite effective and it won't make me deaf :)

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/IMG_3752.jpg

Very nice, intelligent, and functional set up. :wavey:

With the longer barrel it takes 9mm ballistics up a bit and makes a good stopper. The meth house and pot farm raiders around here are going to 9mm set ups.
Not unless you want to kill the neighbors and go deaf.

:upeyes: Again the unknowing peanut gallery speaks.

phxfa
12-02-2009, 12:40
All BS aside, do you really want to use a title II weapon for HD purposes?
Instant grand jury look-see in my county and thats a 10k retainer with my attorney,,,:faint:

12131
12-02-2009, 12:57
All BS aside, do you really want to use a title II weapon for HD purposes?
Instant grand jury look-see in my county and thats a 10k retainer with my attorney,,,:faint:
Nah, just move to TX. Problem solved.:supergrin:

phxfa
12-02-2009, 13:01
Nah, just move to TX. Problem solved.:supergrin:
I live in "Sherriffjoeville" any excuse to get in the news,,,,,
Id move to Texas just for the pig hunts!

edrobert
12-02-2009, 13:14
That is a very nice set up. RRA upper?

:wavey:

Yes, RRA Upper & Bolt.

Although it doesn't pull routine duty as my HD weapon, it was set up as such for such times when the idea of using a Title II weapon is of is of little importance.

Captain Caveman
12-02-2009, 14:22
Now that I live in an area that will allow me to own one, I will be going with an 11.5" 5.56 loaded with 75gr TAP and suppressed. But this will not be the primary. Primary will still be the G21sf. I also plan on cutting my 870 down to 12" and getting my wife a 10.5" 9mm AR suppressed.

pleaforwar
12-02-2009, 14:39
I live in "Sherriffjoeville" any excuse to get in the news,,,,,
Id move to Texas just for the pig hunts!

That's news to me, I live in Maricopa County and haven't heard any cases like that in the news. :dunno:

DScottHewitt
12-02-2009, 14:47
So is a short barreled AR the ultimate home defense weapon or a huge waste of cash?

Just to clarify what I am talking about would be a AR pistol but with a stock. Like this but in 5.56 mm

http://www.digitalperf.com/photo/albums/userpics/10001/g9mm.jpg

With M193/M855, would be limited in the effective fragmentation range.....

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/DScottHewitt/ammo_project_ammoOraclePics_wund5.jpg

DScottHewitt
12-02-2009, 14:50
An SBR AR for HD? I guess it would be ok if you didn't have neighbors, kids, and didn't give a rats ass about your hearing.

5.56mm usually breaks up in drywall. Less penetration than 9mm. Now, lower velocity from a stub barrel might offset the fragmentation in drywall, too.

Kegel
12-02-2009, 17:02
For all you who think .223/5.56 will exit your house and penetrate your neighbors house. The bullet would be lucky to make it out of your house after going through 2 sheets of drywall.


http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/ammunition.html


Box o' truth. Box o' truth. Nuff said.


http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Kegel
12-02-2009, 17:08
If you're in a situation that dictates using your SBR for self defense, you're probably not even going to have ringing ears after you're finished firing, providing you're still alive of course. I've never had my ears ring after shooting a deer while hunting with my .308. Now, if I fire that same gun at the range, my ears ring for the entire day. I don't know how this works, it just does.

And who the hell cares about if the neighbors get disturbed...you're shooting somebody to save your damn life! They can wake up for that.


You dont wake up from being dead. So if dead neighbors and being deaf dont bother you, go ahead...use 5.56 rifle rounds in the house.

BlutoBlutarsky
12-02-2009, 17:25
You dont wake up from being dead. So if dead neighbors and being deaf dont bother you, go ahead...use 5.56 rifle rounds in the house.

Unless you live in an apartment or a grass hut, how are you going to kill the neighbors?

gleasonb
12-02-2009, 17:42
I sometimes I just wanna slap the dumb outta peoples head lol

Minnow
12-02-2009, 17:51
Totally awesome thread! :rofl:

phxfa
12-02-2009, 18:01
That's news to me, I live in Maricopa County and haven't heard any cases like that in the news. :dunno:
Not in the news, DO'NT WANNA BE IN THE NEWS! Thats my point,
My attorney is a former prosecuter for the Feds, dont use an NFA weapon for HD/SD,,,:upeyes:

Graves
12-02-2009, 18:06
mother mary and the saints, some folks just don't get it. :faint:

deaf or dead. the choice is yours

Yeah, a SBR is the only answer :upeyes:
Your average Joe isnt willing to go through the BS paperwork to get one and the ones that do usually need some sort of assurance that it was worth it. IMO it isnt, I couldnt see a shot from my 5" Baer being any less effective than that of a SBR (in 556). Im not bashing the SBR, but I dont see why somebody would want one for HD when there are some many other avenues to take that arent such a hassle.

pleaforwar
12-02-2009, 19:22
Not in the news, DO'NT WANNA BE IN THE NEWS! Thats my point,
My attorney is a former prosecuter for the Feds, dont use an NFA weapon for HD/SD,,,:upeyes:

I brought it up because my ccw instructor, who happens to be an attorney, stated that he believed a suppressed SBR AR was the best option for a home-defense situation. Why would he say that if he felt it meant an automatic conviction?

USMC03Grunt
12-02-2009, 19:52
All BS aside, do you really want to use a title II weapon for HD purposes?
Instant grand jury look-see in my county and thats a 10k retainer with my attorney,,,:faint:

And that right there is the reason I would never consider full autos, SBRs, suppressors or short barrel shotguns for defense. Granted we all know that a good shoot is a good shoot regardless of the type of weapon but what about a "jury of your peers"? We all know better but a typical jury, probably isn't going to see it that way. You can bet a prosecutor be it a criminal or civil lawyer is going to trot out every line he can think of to paint you as some sort of renegade mercenary unfit to live in society. Even if you can get cleared on any charges or avoid being sued into the poor house, how much is it going to cost you to achieve those ends? It's a lot easier to avoid courts and legal fees by sticking with more conventional arms be it a shotgun, conventional carbine or rifle or handgun than using something that looks like you are some sort of "evil mercenary" that while may work during the fight may cost you big during the aftermath. I think that is the biggest thing we often overlook is "what happens after the shooting stops?"

Javelin
12-02-2009, 19:55
And that right there is the reason I would never consider full autos, SBRs, suppressors or short barrel shotguns for defense. Granted we all know that a good shoot is a good shoot regardless of the type of weapon but what about a "jury of your peers"? We all know better but a typical jury, probably isn't going to see it that way. You can bet a prosecutor be it a criminal or civil lawyer is going to trot out every line he can think of to paint you as some sort of renegade mercenary unfit to live in society. Even if you can get cleared on any charges or avoid being sued into the poor house, how much is it going to cost you to achieve those ends? It's a lot easier to avoid courts and legal fees by sticking with more conventional arms be it a shotgun, conventional carbine or rifle or handgun than using something that looks like you are some sort of "evil mercenary" that while may work during the fight may cost you big during the aftermath. I think that is the biggest thing we often overlook is "what happens after the shooting stops?"

Awh. No suppressed MP5 by the bedside for you :tongueout:

USMC03Grunt
12-02-2009, 20:23
Nope. Got a Mossberg 590 on my side of the bed and an 870 on the wife's side of the bed but no suppressed MP5. I get to play with them at work from time to time but that's about it. Personally, while Florida is Class III friendly, I just don't want to deal with the red tape so I never had an interest in it.
Getting back on topic though, if one wants to deal with the red tape and keep something like that around for a range toy, I say go for it and enjoy it to the fullest. However, I still say that for home defense goes, avoid it like the plague!
Matter of fact, think about this for a second, for folks that own class III weapons, what do you list on the forms for reason for wanting to buy that weapon? Do you say you want to keep it by your bed in the event of a burglar? Probably not. Most common answer I have seen is that you are buying it as an investment or for a collection. That right there ought to be an indication of why it's unwise to use that sort of weapon for defense.

Kegel
12-02-2009, 20:25
I brought it up because my ccw instructor, who happens to be an attorney, stated that he believed a suppressed SBR AR was the best option for a home-defense situation. Why would he say that if he felt it meant an automatic conviction?


Maybe he's a psychotic freak and or not a very good attorney?

phxfa
12-02-2009, 21:23
I brought it up because my ccw instructor, who happens to be an attorney, stated that he believed a suppressed SBR AR was the best option for a home-defense situation. Why would he say that if he felt it meant an automatic conviction?
Actually, my suppressed MAC-10 or HK-53 would also WORK,,but do I want to explain why I used a title II weapon for HD/SD to sherriff Joe? NOT! And its not an automatic conviction, just a Grand Jury look at me that I dont need or want. just my $.02

AK_Stick
12-02-2009, 21:33
While its going to be loud, anything you shoot indoors will be. And the terminal performance from a SBR, is worth the little bit of increased volume.

Personally, I wouldn't go any shorter that 11.5, because after that, you see a steep drop off in reliablity. Now, a well built 10.5 will run well. Just as my old Noveske 7.5 ran well, but it takes more to get them to run right. 11.5's and up are all around more reliable. And I think 11.5-12.7 is just about right for an all around rifle.


As for Kegel, and his posts, well, simplest method is to ignore him, he knows not of what he speaks.

deMontacute
12-03-2009, 06:39
While its going to be loud, anything you shoot indoors will be. And the terminal performance from a SBR, is worth the little bit of increased volume.

Personally, I wouldn't go any shorter that 11.5, because after that, you see a steep drop off in reliablity. Now, a well built 10.5 will run well. Just as my old Noveske 7.5 ran well, but it takes more to get them to run right. 11.5's and up are all around more reliable. And I think 11.5-12.7 is just about right for an all around rifle.


As for Kegel, and his posts, well, simplest method is to ignore him, he knows not of what he speaks.
While I agree with you for SHTF purposes... There is is no way in hell I'd use it for HD. Even with a good shoot, you are handing your weapon over until the jury no-bills you, and since I've seen how law enforcement/the prosecutors office here in LA treats weapons in their care....

...Plus the Rodney Peairs case demonstrated to me that prosecutors around here will attempt to make their case on what was used in the shoot. Hell if they could spin a .44 magnum with laser as inappropriate for HD, I'm sure they would have a field day with a shorty w/a can....

BTW, I'm not saying a SBR is a waste of money. There are plenty of good reasons to own one besides HD. I just don't trust the prosecutors office around here not to make an issue of it. Which is why I have an 870 and G19 for HD. If I lose them for awhile, and they come back roughed up, no biggie....

Hedo1
12-03-2009, 06:54
For a HD Weapon I think your money would be better spent elsewhere.

I don't clear houses for a living and you shouldn't clear one by yourself. As others have mentioned, you are opening up a can of worms legally that you don't have to, by using an SBR for home defense. Other weapons will serve the purpose at far less cost.

phxfa
12-03-2009, 07:55
But they sure look cool!!! :supergrin:

keninnavarre
12-03-2009, 08:54
in a self defense situation where shots are fired at you and by you, I promise you WILL NOT remember the blast/noise or the recoil. Unfortunately I know that all too well.
back on topic

A SBR makes a fine HD weapon, so long as you know that weapon, and have put in the time to train with that weapon. Whatever weapon you decide to use for HD is your choice. Just make sure you have put in the time with that weapon to that when the time comes to use it, you have mastered it.

To the folks that say the SBR is a poor choice, have you ever used an SBR in a shoothouse? Heck, have you ever used a shoothouse or trained in any type of close quarters facility. Im not saying that you cant use a 14.5 or 16 brl carbine in that situation, because you can. But based on my first hand personal experience I am much quicker, and much more efficient with my SBR than I am with my 16 or 18 carbine.

Oh, and to all you folks complaining that SBR's are loud. Yeah they are. They are guns. Guns are loud. Get over it, or find a new hobby.

respectfully
Tim

Tim, I have trained/used a shoothouse. I have also shot in a house, a housetrailer and a car. And have been shot at a few times, as well. Im not saying the SBR is a poor choice, but the OP shows a 10.5 inch sbr, with standard flash hider, and ask if it would be the "ultimate" home defense weapon if chambered in .223.
My question would be "Have you ever trained/shot in a shoothouse, or a room, in the dark with a short barreled rifle chambered in .223 without hearing protection? With no suppressor, with just a flash hider?"
Dont get me wrong. I love my AR pistol. I dont need a stock to make it effective. I have the longest buffer tube I could find, and it reaches where it needs to be fine, with a eotech sight. And its obnoxious and loud and pisses people off at the range. I dont care about that. But in its standard form, it wouldnt "be the ultimate" in home defense.
Many dollars have been spent trying to find "low flash powders". There is a reason for this. When exposed to a bright flash in darkness you will lose your night vision. Same reason for red lenses on lights.
When a bump in the night escalates to something more, you want to keep all your senses with you. Setting off the equalivent of a flashbang in the hallway of your home wouldnt be the ultimate in home defense. It could be a deadly mistake.
Respectfully,
Ken

TimP
12-03-2009, 09:30
Tim, I have trained/used a shoothouse. I have also shot in a house, a housetrailer and a car. And have been shot at a few times, as well. Im not saying the SBR is a poor choice, but the OP shows a 10.5 inch sbr, with standard flash hider, and ask if it would be the "ultimate" home defense weapon if chambered in .223.
My question would be "Have you ever trained/shot in a shoothouse, or a room, in the dark with a short barreled rifle chambered in .223 without hearing protection? With no suppressor, with just a flash hider?"
Dont get me wrong. I love my AR pistol. I dont need a stock to make it effective. I have the longest buffer tube I could find, and it reaches where it needs to be fine, with a eotech sight. And its obnoxious and loud and pisses people off at the range. I dont care about that. But in its standard form, it wouldnt "be the ultimate" in home defense.
Many dollars have been spent trying to find "low flash powders". There is a reason for this. When exposed to a bright flash in darkness you will lose your night vision. Same reason for red lenses on lights.
When a bump in the night escalates to something more, you want to keep all your senses with you. Setting off the equalivent of a flashbang in the hallway of your home wouldnt be the ultimate in home defense. It could be a deadly mistake.
Respectfully,
Ken

Great response and no offense taken Ken :wavey:

Kegel
12-03-2009, 09:41
While I agree with you for SHTF purposes... There is is no way in hell I'd use it for HD. Even with a good shoot, you are handing your weapon over until the jury no-bills you, and since I've seen how law enforcement/the prosecutors office here in LA treats weapons in their care....

...Plus the Rodney Peairs case demonstrated to me that prosecutors around here will attempt to make their case on what was used in the shoot. Hell if they could spin a .44 magnum with laser as inappropriate for HD, I'm sure they would have a field day with a shorty w/a can....

BTW, I'm not saying a SBR is a waste of money. There are plenty of good reasons to own one besides HD. I just don't trust the prosecutors office around here not to make an issue of it. Which is why I have an 870 and G19 for HD. If I lose them for awhile, and they come back roughed up, no biggie....


Just curious: If you arent going to use the SBR for HD, what other good reasons are there to own one (other than they are cool and fun to shoot)? Not talking about LEO's or SF's either.

Captain Caveman
12-03-2009, 11:18
Because it's our right...

Abull
12-03-2009, 13:16
Just curious: If you arent going to use the SBR for HD, what other good reasons are there to own one (other than they are cool and fun to shoot)? Not talking about LEO's or SF's either.

Didn't you answer your own question???

AK_Stick
12-03-2009, 14:19
While I agree with you for SHTF purposes... There is is no way in hell I'd use it for HD. Even with a good shoot, you are handing your weapon over until the jury no-bills you, and since I've seen how law enforcement/the prosecutors office here in LA treats weapons in their care....

...Plus the Rodney Peairs case demonstrated to me that prosecutors around here will attempt to make their case on what was used in the shoot. Hell if they could spin a .44 magnum with laser as inappropriate for HD, I'm sure they would have a field day with a shorty w/a can....

BTW, I'm not saying a SBR is a waste of money. There are plenty of good reasons to own one besides HD. I just don't trust the prosecutors office around here not to make an issue of it. Which is why I have an 870 and G19 for HD. If I lose them for awhile, and they come back roughed up, no biggie....


Well that all depends on where you live, and the circumstances of your shoot. If you shoot someone breaking into your house, I would be surprised if they made you turn in your weapon. In AK they certainly wouldn't.

However, I think too many people worry about things that will never happen. If its a good shoot, it doesn't matter if you use a howitzer, or a 22. Are there rare examples of prosecutors using the gun used to vilify the defender? Yes.

Are they the exception and not the rule? Yes.


And lastly, I'm not one to lament a scratch or two on a gun I use for work. I have several rifles that I take great care not to scratch, but they're not the guns I'm reaching for if something is going on. My work guns, are scratched and beat up, because they're the guns I drag out when something needs doing.

jjtroutbum
12-03-2009, 15:44
Just curious: If you arent going to use the SBR for HD, what other good reasons are there to own one (other than they are cool and fun to shoot)? Not talking about LEO's or SF's either.

:upeyes: In case of a TROLL attack of course.

TimP
12-03-2009, 15:44
And lastly, I'm not one to lament a scratch or two on a gun I use for work. I have several rifles that I take great care not to scratch, but they're not the guns I'm reaching for if something is going on. My work guns, are scratched and beat up, because they're the guns I drag out when something needs doing.

couldnt have said it better myself

Lotiki
12-03-2009, 19:57
If you're in a situation that dictates using your SBR for self defense, you're probably not even going to have ringing ears after you're finished firing, providing you're still alive of course. I've never had my ears ring after shooting a deer while hunting with my .308. Now, if I fire that same gun at the range, my ears ring for the entire day. I don't know how this works, it just does.

And who the hell cares about if the neighbors get disturbed...you're shooting somebody to save your damn life! They can wake up for that.

There is a simple explanation for that, Adrenaline.

It constricts the blood vessels in lesser systems in the body such as hearing, digestion and feeling in the skin in order to funnel that blood and all its energy to the brain and body muscles in order to deal with the situation that caused it to flow in the first place.

Spiffums
12-03-2009, 21:31
I am going to clear out some of the vapors that are left behind from everyone crapping in this thread.

FACT:
- SBR ARs are not for everyone. Even in the military, only the SF and elite ops units get them
- SBR ARs do not carry the same muzzle energy as those with 16", 18", or 20"
- SBR ARs <10" suffer severe velocity loss and bullets do not reliably stabilize
- SBR ARs are loud and do have a large fireball due to unburned powder

But wait there's more:
- SBR ARs 10"+ are ideal for suppressing and can be made hearing safe while still <16" OAL
- Using heavier ammo (75gr.) gives SBR ARs more punch and fragmentation out to 200m
- 6.8mm is an option. Just know that there are reports of extraction issues.
- Quality ARs such as Noveske, LMT, LWRC, etc give reliability to the SBR platform
- Gas blowback while using a suppressor is awful, recommend a Noveske Switchblock


A quality SBR is a specialized tool to work in and around buildings, vehicles, while being able to perform 200m shots with reliable fragmentation. Accuracy is not effected by a 10.5" barrel, only velocity so you can shoot out to 400 yards if you wish but your bullet will probably not fragment as you would like it to.

Here is mine. If anyone wishes to say that it is inferior to theirs please go right ahead. I'm all ears.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5339/noveske4banothersidevie.jpg

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5254/noveske7suppressorsidev.jpg

It is totally inferior to mine because it was not photographed on pink carpet. :tongueout:

While I really want a SRB......... I just can't justify to myself having to jump through all the hoops. But I do drool over Jav's.

Hef
12-03-2009, 21:43
Well that all depends on where you live, and the circumstances of your shoot. If you shoot someone breaking into your house, I would be surprised if they made you turn in your weapon. In AK they certainly wouldn't.

However, I think too many people worry about things that will never happen. If its a good shoot, it doesn't matter if you use a howitzer, or a 22. Are there rare examples of prosecutors using the gun used to vilify the defender? Yes.

Are they the exception and not the rule? Yes.


And lastly, I'm not one to lament a scratch or two on a gun I use for work. I have several rifles that I take great care not to scratch, but they're not the guns I'm reaching for if something is going on. My work guns, are scratched and beat up, because they're the guns I drag out when something needs doing.

None of my guns are safe queens. I don't abuse them, but I don't baby them either. Scratches and dirt are what happens to guns that get used.

edrobert
12-03-2009, 21:52
Just curious: If you arent going to use the SBR for HD, what other good reasons are there to own one (other than they are cool and fun to shoot)? Not talking about LEO's or SF's either.

Because chick dig 'em!!!

CALIx
12-03-2009, 21:57
It is totally inferior to mine because it was not photographed on pink carpet. :tongueout:

While I really want a SRB......... I just can't justify to myself having to jump through all the hoops. But I do drool over Jav's.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/CALIX/P8010102.jpg

Does that mean mine is superior to Javlin's since its photographed on pink silk (intentional/one of my SBR's). :supergrin:

txpitdog
12-03-2009, 22:25
With all the velocity you'd lose in the short barrel, it might be worth looking at a FN 5.7

DScottHewitt
12-03-2009, 23:24
Matter of fact, think about this for a second, for folks that own class III weapons, what do you list on the forms for reason for wanting to buy that weapon?

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/DScottHewitt/zombies011.jpg

DScottHewitt
12-03-2009, 23:27
Just curious: If you arent going to use the SBR for HD, what other good reasons are there to own one (other than they are cool and fun to shoot)? Not talking about LEO's or SF's either.

America

ctaggart
12-03-2009, 23:47
You dont wake up from being dead. So if dead neighbors and being deaf dont bother you, go ahead...use 5.56 rifle rounds in the house.

Maybe I'm just lucky that I live in a log cabin. I don't think a .223 is going to penetrate any wall in that house. Regardless of that, if somebody is breaking into my house and puts me in the situation of having to shoot them, I'd like to turn their organs into soup. No handgun round will do that for me. A ballistic tipped Black Hills round certainly will though!

groovyash
12-04-2009, 00:05
With all the velocity you'd lose in the short barrel, it might be worth looking at a FN 5.7

With XM193 out of an 11.5" as opposed to 16" bbl you lose about 250fps. Still puts you miles ahead of 5.7 ballistics, still is plenty fast to yaw and fragment out to 100yds. Then there's heavier ammo, and of course ammo designed to wound by expansion not fragmentation...not to mention the benefits inherent in using the much more stable shooting platform of a rifle.

As for paperwork, it's far less than buying a car.

Speaking as someone who is issued an 11.5" Commando, and who owns a BCM based SBR as well they have a specific purpose and are better at that purpose than anything else. Most people are probably served just fine by a 16" gun, but for actually clearing structures the benefit of a sbr becomes apparent very quickly.

Hellfire
12-04-2009, 16:20
I realize that 5.56 out of a SBR is bright AND loud, especially indoors. So is full house .357. There are plenty of folks with a .357 in the nightstand. For "bumps in the night" I grab my G30, not my AR, not my AK, not my SG, not my .30-06, etc. etc. My point is that all of my firearms serve a purpose, be it defense, fun, collectable, etc. but all could be called into service if need be. Whatever was closest could be used if need be, and I would rather protect my family and myself first, then worry about the judicial system. Innocent people go to jail, our judicial system is flawed- all are, but I would like to be alive, and my family safe first. I would have no problem using whatever was available at the time, SBR, collectable, etc.

deMontacute
12-04-2009, 16:58
Well that all depends on where you live, and the circumstances of your shoot. If you shoot someone breaking into your house, I would be surprised if they made you turn in your weapon. In AK they certainly wouldn't.

However, I think too many people worry about things that will never happen. If its a good shoot, it doesn't matter if you use a howitzer, or a 22. Are there rare examples of prosecutors using the gun used to vilify the defender? Yes.

Are they the exception and not the rule? Yes.


And lastly, I'm not one to lament a scratch or two on a gun I use for work. I have several rifles that I take great care not to scratch, but they're not the guns I'm reaching for if something is going on. My work guns, are scratched and beat up, because they're the guns I drag out when something needs doing.
In AK maybe, but as we all know us lower 48ers don't get to enjoy quite the same gun laws and attitudes as you guys do. My CCW instructor made it a point to say that you were likely to turn over your weapon even if the shoot was good, atleast until the Grand Jury "no bill"s you.

FWIW, I don't mind dings if they were put there by me through honest use or training. But It would chap my ass if it was there due to mistreatment by an evidence clerk...

phxfa
12-04-2009, 17:19
Just waiting for the stamp, 6.8 spc. Aimpoint T-1 and I'm good to go

Javelin
12-04-2009, 18:23
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/DScottHewitt/zombies011.jpg

Pretty brazen putting "Zombies" as the reason for approval on a Form 1

:rofl:

gleasonb
12-04-2009, 19:20
Damn that is funny!

raven11
12-04-2009, 19:52
America

end thread:supergrin:

furioso2112
12-04-2009, 21:35
The post that included the question about whether one would cut a hose in half to be cooler - pretty funny statement.

SBR not my first priority, not even high on my list of wants...but I would buy/build one of them beofre a LOT of other guns.

The state in which I reside licenses concealed pistols, so I could conceivably carry a pistol setup AR - the novelty of that alone would likey be the biggest influence on me doing it. In other words, it would be purely because I wanted to see what a gun like was like to shoot for myself, wanted a conversation piece, and little else. Probably not going to happen particularly soon.

Have at it, those who like 'em. They sure are some neat looking guns.

DScottHewitt
12-05-2009, 21:07
Pretty brazen putting "Zombies" as the reason for approval on a Form 1

:rofl:

Note it has the little green stamp.....

Javelin
12-05-2009, 21:59
Note it has the little green stamp.....

Yes that is why I said brazen instead of calling it stupid.

:wavey:

Whazoo
12-05-2009, 22:01
So is a short barreled AR the ultimate home defense weapon or a huge waste of cash?

Just to clarify what I am talking about would be a AR pistol but with a stock. Like this but in 5.56 mm

http://www.digitalperf.com/photo/albums/userpics/10001/g9mm.jpg

Buy an AR pistol (10 inch) and spend the $200 tax on a can, you will need it...

scottMO
12-06-2009, 19:02
For 5.56, I like uppers in the 10"-11.5" range:

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/sbrtwins.jpg

For .22LR and 9mm, you can go alot shorter:

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/kourts006.jpg

Need? Want? Practical? Different people will have different responses..

doc540
01-17-2010, 16:07
I just bought one last week, (Sabre Defence 11.5") and my forms get mailed tomorrow (both trust and tax).

I don't consider it my ultimate "in-home" weapon since I live in a relatively small townhouse much like an apartment and have other firearms for that specific purpose.

But here on the Texas Gulf Coast we experience hurricanes.

Two very bad ones within the last five years have prompted me to seriously revamp my plans and systems.

When civil order breaks down again, should I have to defend our perimeter (outside-the-home) and the perimeter of other family members who live next door, I feel confident my SBR will be up to the task.

I also like the looks and feel of an SBR.

Haven't decided yet, but I may go the can route or the Noveske Flaming Pig.

Regardless, it'll be a KISS build.

Looks very similar to this one:
http://politesocietyinc.com/imimg/sabresbr_pkg2_1.jpg

re: legalities

I'm not concerned about a DA or Grand Jury causing me grief if I have to use it as a last resort to defend my life or the lives of my family. I'm an upstanding citizen of both my county and my city, and I personally know my local officials. (In fact, my local Chief of Police offered to sign my application). This area of Texas is known for supporting responsible gun owners, not pursuing them.

NeverMore1701
01-17-2010, 17:58
My future BCM SBR build is gonna look a whole lot like that. Very nice.

slewfoot
01-17-2010, 18:24
All BS aside, do you really want to use a title II weapon for HD purposes?
Instant grand jury look-see in my county and thats a 10k retainer with my attorney,,,:faint:

Are you saying I would have to go to court in the very same building where the sheriff signed my paperwork to build an SBR?:rofl::rofl:

That would be a shocker since I used "all legal purposes and self defense" as a reason to build the gun. The sheriff seemed to think that was reasonable, he approved and signed the paperwork.

remlap
01-17-2010, 19:49
Are you saying I would have to go to court in the very same building where the sheriff signed my paperwork to build an SBR?:rofl::rofl:

That would be a shocker since I used "all legal purposes and self defense" as a reason to build the gun. The sheriff seemed to think that was reasonable, he approved and signed the paperwork.

Good Point

doc540
01-17-2010, 19:55
Good Point

I tried to make that same point above but more diplomatically.:cool:

phxfa
01-17-2010, 21:00
Are you saying I would have to go to court in the very same building where the sheriff signed my paperwork to build an SBR?:rofl::rofl:

That would be a shocker since I used "all legal purposes and self defense" as a reason to build the gun. The sheriff seemed to think that was reasonable, he approved and signed the paperwork.
Obviously you've never had a taste of our judicial system :shocked:

doc540
01-17-2010, 21:20
Obviously you've never had a taste of our judicial system :shocked:

Obviously, you've never been a law-abiding citizen in East Texas.

They give home-castle defenders a commendation and the keys to the city.:wavey:

phxfa
01-18-2010, 02:59
Obviously, you've never been a law-abiding citizen in East Texas.

They give home-castle defenders a commendation and the keys to the city.:wavey:
Didnt mean to sound confrontational, :wavey: but every state/county is different when it comes to a 'good' shoot. They just cut loose Mr. Fish in my state (AZ) for his 10mm. SD shooting and that ordeal is something I'd prefer not to go thru

slewfoot
01-18-2010, 05:49
Obviously you've never had a taste of our judicial system :shocked:

I am not sure how you would know that.

Being afraid to do something which is legal, in the fear that someone else may determine it unsavory or against conventions is not in my playbook.

If you believe SBRing a rifle or shotgun is not in your best interests, then by all means, stay away from them.

If more folks thought like you, the wait time on ATF approval would be much shorter.

RMTactical
01-18-2010, 06:06
Not a waste, but it is a niche tool IMO.

I think a suppressor is more important than having a short barrel, but having both, now that would be cool!

phxfa
01-18-2010, 08:00
I am not sure how you would know that.

Being afraid to do something which is legal, in the fear that someone else may determine it unsavory or against conventions is not in my playbook.

If you believe SBRing a rifle or shotgun is not in your best interests, then by all means, stay away from them.

If more folks thought like you, the wait time on ATF approval would be much shorter.
In answering your first and second statement, my line of work brings me around some interesting legal situations involving my clients which shows ME how flawed are legal system can be.
Im not afraid to own an NFA weapon, I have several, I just choose to not have them available/handy for a possible SD situation.
Believe me on this: If I stitch some BG with my suppressed HK-53 in MY home, its gonna hit the news, and stay there for awhile good shoot or not. Our beloved Sherriff Joe would have a field day with it NO THANKS

doc540
01-18-2010, 09:23
Subsonic ammo is another option on the menu.

A can and subsonic ammo is...uhhh...stealthy.:wow:

djegators
01-25-2010, 19:33
Ok, very interesting thread. I already own a Bushmaster with a 10" heavy barrel and a 6" flash hider. It has been suggested to me that I register it SBR, and remove the flash hider. Since the barrel is already, guess it makes more sense than altering a longer barrel. Any thoughts on the practicality on this?

phxfa
01-26-2010, 09:39
Ok, very interesting thread. I already own a Bushmaster with a 10" heavy barrel and a 6" flash hider. It has been suggested to me that I register it SBR, and remove the flash hider. Since the barrel is already, guess it makes more sense than altering a longer barrel. Any thoughts on the practicality on this?
your only challenge would be removing the permanently attached flash hider after your form 1 clears and engraving the lower with your info.
Id do it

Glockdude1
01-26-2010, 09:46
SBR.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b112/Burntrubber87/zombies011.jpg

:cool:

BEER
01-26-2010, 12:02
i don't use a rifle or shotgun for inside defense mainly because i want my other hand free to dial 911, use a light if one's not mounted on my gun, opening or closing and securing doors and windows, and being able to fend off the bad guy if he pops out from around a corner or something within arms reach.

but that's just me and my personal system, you go ahead and rock out with whatever turns your crank. just remember no matter how legal your gun is, or how legal your shoot was, you're most likely going to lose that gun for quite awhile.

vettely
01-26-2010, 21:23
Is that application for real with "Zombies" on it?

larry_minn
01-26-2010, 23:29
OK I will admit. I would LOVE to make a SBR with supresser. Say a 10" barrel with supresser (total length @15") But costs (for ATF and that MN does not allow) prevent that. I even considered doing it in 9mm or .45acp. But can't. :(

Of the "IMO big three" 1 full auto, 2. supressors, 3. SBR I would take supressors. SBR and full auto as last in my list of "likes"

Glockdude1
01-27-2010, 09:09
Is that application for real with "Zombies" on it?

%100 real.

:cool:

jobob
01-27-2010, 16:04
I use to have an 11.5" AR pistol. Even after I put a Noveske flaming pig on it, it still wasn't very fun to shoot. I ended up selling it. A 16" does everything I need done, and without the paperwork!

For HD I prefer a pistol anyway, just because it's handier and easier to protect in a close quarters situation. Not that I have anything against a carbine or SBR for HD. In fact, the 223 round, especially with hp or sp ammo, is less penetrative through walls than pistol or sg rounds (bird shot excepted). So, if you have close neighbors or children you might be better served with the AR. That is especially true if your defense plan is to remain in a barricaded position (behind bed in bedroom) until either help arrives or the bg comes through your door.

If your plan is to search your house for that bump in the night, the pistol may be better. It's eaiser to protect from gun grabs, and less awkward to use while you are fending off the bg with your other hand (or using the phone, or opening a door, etc). And, speaking or other hands, an argument could be made that the long gun is better defensively because it can be used as a cq impact weapon, whereas a pistol is much less suitable.

So, pick your poison. Just make sure you are competent with whatever weapon you choose.

Just my $0.02 from a retired LEO.

Alaskapopo
01-27-2010, 16:27
I prefer pistol caliber AR's for HD......32rds on 9mm can be quite effective and it won't make me deaf :)

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/IMG_3752.jpg

Pistol rounds are far less effective (terminal performance) than a good .223 load even in a short barrel.
Pat

lilc
01-28-2010, 22:23
10.5" in 5.56 is not so bad if you use a serious flash hider to damp the concussion and the fireball... The Noveske KX3 adds back length and heft but definitely does the job...

http://www.pbase.com/image/119174212.jpg

If SBRs were legal where I live, I would get a 7.62x39mm "suchka" AK with a short barrel and a folding stock in a heartbeat instead of an AR. As the laws stand, I use a 10.5" AR pistol made as "rifle-like" as possible to get the same functionality.

JBJ16
01-30-2010, 12:30
So is a short barreled AR the ultimate home defense weapon or a huge waste of cash?

Just to clarify what I am talking about would be a AR pistol but with a stock. Like this but in 5.56 mm

http://www.digitalperf.com/photo/albums/userpics/10001/g9mm.jpg

I would defer to Will Smith (I Am Legend). He had a lot of indoor HD use with an M4 rifle against fast movers (zombies). I guess SBShotguns would be more of "the ultimate HD weapon". :wow::tongueout:

KalashniKEV
01-30-2010, 20:01
The answer is obviously awesome...

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/IMG_0607.jpg


All the haters just wish their guns were this ridiculously awesome...

KalashniKEV
01-30-2010, 20:08
If SBRs were legal where I live, I would get a 7.62x39mm "suchka" AK with a short barrel and a folding stock in a heartbeat instead of an AR.

Are you trying to say "*****" in Russian? It's "sooka" not "suchka."

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/amd2.jpg

AKs are great to SBR in 7.62x39mm...you don't lose as much velocity per inch as you do with the small caliber guns. They're also rock solid reliable and you don't have to mess w/ the whole menu of buffer weights, port sizes, do I wanna go piston, etc...

The badass-shorty-piston-AR in 6.8 was invented a long time ago... for cheap.

scottMO
02-01-2010, 20:56
SBR.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b112/Burntrubber87/zombies011.jpg

:cool:


Looks like they are still approving them w/ "Zombies" as the reason. this one was approved Jan 23, 2010.... :supergrin:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/CTinNV/DSC00238.jpg

NeverMore1701
02-01-2010, 21:29
Heh heh that's just great :supergrin:

Glockdude1
02-02-2010, 09:09
Looks like they are still approving them w/ "Zombies" as the reason. this one was approved Jan 23, 2010.... :supergrin:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/CTinNV/DSC00238.jpg

Outstanding!!

:thumbsup:

A SBS is next on my list of my weapons to register.

ampdog
02-03-2010, 11:56
In answering your first and second statement, my line of work brings me around some interesting legal situations involving my clients which shows ME how flawed are legal system can be.
Im not afraid to own an NFA weapon, I have several, I just choose to not have them available/handy for a possible SD situation.
Believe me on this: If I stitch some BG with my suppressed HK-53 in MY home, its gonna hit the news, and stay there for awhile good shoot or not. Our beloved Sherriff Joe would have a field day with it NO THANKS

I am with you on this! What makes sense and what sounds right, don't always have anything to do with the legal system. The system can cause you an awful lot of pain to argue your point and it doesn't always work out for you. :shocked:

GeorgiaGlockMan
02-04-2010, 20:07
they are awsome

NeverMore1701
02-04-2010, 20:25
It's been decided that I need an SBR. I'm getting exactly $200 back from the IRS, so it seems only fair that it go to the ATF :supergrin:

Now I just need to research setting up a Trust. Any good links with such info would be appreciated.

Fire_Medic
02-04-2010, 20:49
It's been decided that I need an SBR. I'm getting exactly $200 back from the IRS, so it seems only fair that it go to the ATF :supergrin:

Now I just need to research setting up a Trust. Any good links with such info would be appreciated.

Google Bob Howell and you will find everything you need. Give him a call if you need answers to any questions. He's the "godfather" of NFA trust.
:wavey:

TrooperBrian
02-04-2010, 22:00
I prefer pistol caliber AR's for HD......32rds on 9mm can be quite effective and it won't make me deaf :)

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/IMG_3752.jpg
After I get my suppressor I thought about chopping down my barrel to make the suppressor fit under the handguard, just like that!

TrooperBrian
02-04-2010, 22:12
It's been decided that I need an SBR. I'm getting exactly $200 back from the IRS, so it seems only fair that it go to the ATF :supergrin:

Now I just need to research setting up a Trust. Any good links with such info would be appreciated.
This is the one I used, took all of 10 minutes and a trip to the Notary.

Taking the Trust route to the NFA... - Police Forums & Law Enforcement Forums @ Officer.com (http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=107341)

MaximaDrvr
02-04-2010, 23:09
That is a great thread link. Thanks.

TrooperBrian
02-05-2010, 09:09
That is a great thread link. Thanks.
Not a problem.


Edro, I've been looking at that picture, how long is that barrel now? How did you get the gas system so short?

KalashniKEV
02-05-2010, 09:35
How did you get the gas system so short?

It's a 9 Iron- no gas system.

TrooperBrian
02-05-2010, 10:03
Looks like they are still approving them w/ "Zombies" as the reason. this one was approved Jan 23, 2010.... :supergrin:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/CTinNV/DSC00238.jpg
:rofl:

Chances are if I try that I'll get "Disapproved: Illegitimate Reason, Mental Insanity"

TrooperBrian
02-05-2010, 10:03
It's a 9 Iron- no gas system.
Ah, makes more sense then.

r1abuser
02-06-2010, 21:36
the three main criteria for home self defense is have a warning system, dog is acceptable, have a loaded firearm and be committed to shoot at identified threats till there's no threat.

weapon description matters not much. observant, prepared, and a committed mindset are 99.+ %. A single shot shotgun and three shells is not unarmed, and having a belt fed after 5 beers is suicidal lack of forethought. To pay for 3000 ft per second ammo and castrate it to the low 2000s isn't smart no matter HOW much fun you have.

Defense isn't range toy. Never has been. Fun is plenty excuse for any legal gun. Why put frills around it? Nobody cares. God save me from folks think a 2 foot fireball in a public range makes them more manly.

Keeps me to hell off the range, so I guess I oughta thank em for saving me money, but I ain't that forgiving. Remind me again how many hundreds of dollars yer gonna spend on training and fun ammo? Or is that gonna be irrelevant? Use the bluidy gun you've trained with most, with affordable reliable ammo, and go shoot every week.

done. and if you think you're in danger from humans, lemme ask you how you're fixed for fire dangers? Which are a bunch more likely to surprise ya...would you cut the hose in half on a fire extinguisher to be cooler?

LOOK UP SUCCESSFUL SD EVENTS LAST 5 YEARS.

don't take my word for it. i didn't. chopping AR's is generally as smart as chopping shotguns without a ruler and equally justifiable, or they'd ISSUE 'em.

And you ain't likely to change my mind, after four marriages it takes a lot. Stubborn I do right well.

Took me 30 years and a good talkin' to, not to mention an ammo shortage, to make me buy a .22 pistol.

You wanna convince me SBR AR's are SMART, get up real early and pack a lunch. Fun I'll give ya free. Smart, you gotta prove and ya can't.

You dont even make sense. Sometimes you should stay away from the reply button Mr. 23,000 posts.

r1abuser
02-06-2010, 21:41
While we are on topic here is a pic of my latest creation. Its not your average AR and its not an AR15.

AR57 upper w 6" barrel, auto bolt / buffer
DMPS lower w/ 3 rd burst, DIAS
Aimpoint H1 sight w/ LaRue QD mount
5.7x28 suppressor

http://home.roadrunner.com/~sportbiketireman/AR57-1.jpg

http://home.roadrunner.com/~sportbiketireman/AR57-2.jpg

http://home.roadrunner.com/~sportbiketireman/AR57-3.jpg

r1abuser
02-06-2010, 22:02
Another nice choice if I do say so... and I do. One suggestion though... you probally will blow your ear drums out with one or more rounds through this weapon with no hearing protection if you dont run a suppressor. Inside a house I train with my suppressor on.

AR15 chambered in 6.8 SPC
POF USA 9.25" upper
Full Auto
Suppressor

http://home.roadrunner.com/~sportbiketireman/Picture-649.jpg

vettely
02-07-2010, 15:55
How are you guys getting full AUTO ownership?
I thought you (ie civilians) could only own those produced before 1986?

BEER
02-07-2010, 17:12
How are you guys getting full AUTO ownership?
I thought you (ie civilians) could only own those produced before 1986?

we can not own a fully automatic weapon made after 1986, but if you're rich and willing to jump through the federal flaming hoops you can buy any full auto/burst capable weapon made before the 1986 ban. there are also "rdias" which are registered drop in auto sears made by numerous companies before the 86 ban you can buy, and if i understand the laws correctly(which is highly unlikely) a registered sear is a stand alone device of it's own so it can be freely swapped from weapon to weapon without any extra hassle.

phxfa
02-07-2010, 18:20
Another nice choice if I do say so... and I do. One suggestion though... you probally will blow your ear drums out with one or more rounds through this weapon with no hearing protection if you dont run a suppressor. Inside a house I train with my suppressor on.

AR15 chambered in 6.8 SPC
POF USA 9.25" upper
Full Auto
Suppressor

http://home.roadrunner.com/~sportbiketireman/Picture-649.jpg
Looks like a POF lower too?

SIGShooter
02-07-2010, 18:37
In my opinion, there isn't anything wrong with an SBR (Or AR pistol) for HD.

It all really depends on the ammunition you use. Personally, I am getting ready for an SBR build, my ammunition of choice is going to be MK262 MOD1, Hornady TAP 75 Gr. BYHP or Winchester Ranger 64 Gr. Power Point.

I will also be getting a suppressor for the rifle. So the whole noise issue indoors will be a moot point.

If you have never shot indoors, I recommend a class that will allow you to do so. It is definitely an eye opener for you in regards of what to expect.

Just my .02.

SIGShooter
02-07-2010, 18:48
This is the one I used, took all of 10 minutes and a trip to the Notary.

Taking the Trust route to the NFA... - Police Forums & Law Enforcement Forums @ Officer.com (http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=107341)


This is the exact route that I am going for my NFA stuff.

The most expensive cost, an attorney to properly draw it all up. I'm not comfortable doing it myself. There are attorneys out there that do this stuff for a living.

For those of you who have been thinking about doing any NFA guns and aren't sure about it all...I recommend you read up on the Trust. It is a lot easier than you actually think it is.

r1abuser
02-07-2010, 19:01
How are you guys getting full AUTO ownership?
I thought you (ie civilians) could only own those produced before 1986?

I am a class 2 manufacturer. We make all kinds of interesting toys for LEO and the military.

TrooperBrian
02-07-2010, 21:10
This is the exact route that I am going for my NFA stuff.

The most expensive cost, an attorney to properly draw it all up. I'm not comfortable doing it myself. There are attorneys out there that do this stuff for a living.

For those of you who have been thinking about doing any NFA guns and aren't sure about it all...I recommend you read up on the Trust. It is a lot easier than you actually think it is.
Save yourself the money, any current copy of WillMaker is good enough for an NFA trust. All it has to do is designate a successor and beneficiary so that goods and funds are separated.

KDawg0007
02-08-2010, 05:10
Willmaker is how I did mine. I must admit that I was not bold enough to put zombies as my reason though. It will be a long six to eight week wait for my stamp.

LA_357SIG
02-08-2010, 11:45
Get an AUG. About the same length as a 10" bbl'ed AR, but you get a 16" bbl.

http://gallery.me.com/sgtlmj/100169/IMG_2000.jpg?derivative=medium&source=web.jpg&type=medium&ver=12597710830001

That was going to be my suggestion too. Better yet, I can't wait until the MCR in .40 or .45 comes out. That will probably be my HD gun.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k252/chrisq_01/100_1632.jpg

SIGShooter
02-08-2010, 19:44
Save yourself the money, any current copy of WillMaker is good enough for an NFA trust. All it has to do is designate a successor and beneficiary so that goods and funds are separated.


I hear ya.

However, I do not feel comfortable doing it on my own. I would rather have the backing of an attorney than just my lonesome if anything ever does happen.

Like I said, for me, $400.00 is well worth it. If anything ever does happen where I need an attorney to back me, I've got one.

TrooperBrian
02-08-2010, 20:33
I hear ya.

However, I do not feel comfortable doing it on my own. I would rather have the backing of an attorney than just my lonesome if anything ever does happen.

Like I said, for me, $400.00 is well worth it. If anything ever does happen where I need an attorney to back me, I've got one.
Thing is, if anyone comes after you you'll need an attorney ANYWAY, so why waste the $400?

EDIT to ADD: That's another TWO NFA goodies you could have.

TrooperBrian
02-08-2010, 20:36
Willmaker is how I did mine. I must admit that I was not bold enough to put zombies as my reason though. It will be a long six to eight week wait for my stamp.
Someone told me that they are required to approve it because a "Disapprove" could be religious persecution, as one could believe in zombies as part of a religion.

I mean hell, a lot of Americans believe in someone who was nailed to a cross, came back to life, and we eat his body and drink his blood as a ceremony.

Fire_Medic
02-08-2010, 21:54
I mean hell, a lot of Americans believe in someone who was nailed to a cross, came back to life, and we eat his body and drink his blood as a ceremony.

So what you're saying is that deep down inside we're all Zombies......
:supergrin:

KalashniKEV
02-09-2010, 20:21
Someone told me that they are required to approve..."

I would be careful about getting cute... although the box says "Why you intend to make" and not "Approved Use" it could still be construed that if you aren't using it for it's intended purpose (Zombies) when you get picked up, then you aren't fulfilling the legal purpose of the weapon. No Zombies = WRONG all the time.

Somebody smart came up with "All lawful purposes" a long time ago for a reason.

It could also be used to prove that one is mentally defective.


I mean hell, a lot of Americans believe in someone who was nailed to a cross, came back to life

Jesus = World's Most Famous Zombie

And you better hope he's on the scene when you're in the back of the squad car watching some LEO finger "F" your SBR and trying to explain that your Form 4 is a legit legal document.

phxfa
02-09-2010, 20:32
I would be careful about getting cute... although the box says "Why you intend to make" and not "Approved Use" it could still be construed that if you aren't using it for it's intended purpose (Zombies) when you get picked up, then you aren't fulfilling the legal purpose of the weapon. No Zombies = WRONG all the time.

Somebody smart came up with "All lawful purposes" a long time ago for a reason.

It could also be used to prove that one is mentally defective.



Jesus = World's Most Famous Zombie

And you better hope he's on the scene when you're in the back of the squad car watching some LEO finger "F" your SBR and trying to explain that your Form 4 is a legit legal document.
Very true,,,I use " To enhance my personal collection" or " for collective purposes" Why **** with the man???

KalashniKEV
02-09-2010, 21:30
Very true,,,I use " To enhance my personal collection" or " for collective purposes" Why **** with the man???

The only thing that belongs in that box is "All Lawful Purposes."

If it's "To enhance my personal collection" then who says you're actually going to use it? And if you ran it by the CLEO saying you're just going to "collect" it then use it in self defense... ???

Did you misrepresent your purpose?

If it's " for collective purposes" then that means anyone can use it, right? = )

Or is that to serve a collective number of purposes?

Is that on Schedule "C" of the RLT?

Just giving you a hard time! :)

TrooperBrian
02-09-2010, 22:44
I would be careful about getting cute... although the box says "Why you intend to make" and not "Approved Use" it could still be construed that if you aren't using it for it's intended purpose (Zombies) when you get picked up, then you aren't fulfilling the legal purpose of the weapon. No Zombies = WRONG all the time.

Somebody smart came up with "All lawful purposes" a long time ago for a reason.

It could also be used to prove that one is mentally defective.



Jesus = World's Most Famous Zombie

And you better hope he's on the scene when you're in the back of the squad car watching some LEO finger "F" your SBR and trying to explain that your Form 4 is a legit legal document.
Funny you should mention that..there's no jesus either! Or is there?

I wouldn't put zombies as my reason, but if anyone wanted a reason, there's one.

KalashniKEV
02-10-2010, 08:28
Funny you should mention that..there's no jesus either! Or is there?


When you got the cuffs on you, you'd need a divine intervention to get out of it... like, "LOOK! A zombie!! It's Jesus!" See my stamp is valid...

But then would you have to shoot him to fulfill the lawful purpose? ;)

A lot of law enforcement organizations like to "cast a wide net" when it comes to booking perps and then let the courts sort it out if it turns out to be completely and totally legal.

I guess none of these people have ever been to a "Cop BBQ" where everyone exchanges stories about arresting people over nothing or how they violated this procedure or that, up to and including a person's civil rights and, "this DA made it stick," or "this judge looks the other way."

The "people" support this b/c if something doesn't look right (tacticlad ninja shows up at the hunter safety zero range w/ a legal SBR and that stamp) they'd rather it be addressed and sorted out in the courts than to have it turn out to be shady. (If we'd only caught [Cho, Hassan, Ramsi Youssef, etc] when he was acting like a maniac before he took his game to the next level...)

If I had a stamp that said "Zombies" I'd shred it and get some legit paper before I took it out of the house.

My 2cents.

vettely
02-10-2010, 09:25
When you got the cuffs on you, you'd need a divine intervention to get out of it... like, "LOOK! A zombie!! It's Jesus!" See my stamp is valid...

But then would you have to shoot him to fulfill the lawful purpose? ;)

A lot of law enforcement organizations like to "cast a wide net" when it comes to booking perps and then let the courts sort it out if it turns out to be completely and totally legal.

I guess none of these people have ever been to a "Cop BBQ" where everyone exchanges stories about arresting people over nothing or how they violated this procedure or that, up to and including a person's civil rights and, "this DA made it stick," or "this judge looks the other way."

The "people" support this b/c if something doesn't look right (tacticlad ninja shows up at the hunter safety zero range w/ a legal SBR and that stamp) they'd rather it be addressed and sorted out in the courts than to have it turn out to be shady. (If we'd only caught [Cho, Hassan, Ramsi Youssef, etc] when he was acting like a maniac before he took his game to the next level...)

If I had a stamp that said "Zombies" I'd shred it and get some legit paper before I took it out of the house.

My 2cents.
Damn, I do not know what "LEO BBQ's" you go to, but I know myself and my fellow investigators and patrol officers have not egaged in the conduct you describe.

At the time of arrest the patrol officers have to present the case (by telephone) to an on duty ADA to be either accepted or declined based on the PC. If a case is even slightly "weak" the case will be declined and either dropped or forwarded to us (CID) for further investigation.

Perhaps the fine folks I work with in my department just have higher morals and pride in their work than the LEOs at the BBQ's you have been to.

phxfa
02-10-2010, 10:54
When you got the cuffs on you, you'd need a divine intervention to get out of it... like, "LOOK! A zombie!! It's Jesus!" See my stamp is valid...

But then would you have to shoot him to fulfill the lawful purpose? ;)

A lot of law enforcement organizations like to "cast a wide net" when it comes to booking perps and then let the courts sort it out if it turns out to be completely and totally legal.

I guess none of these people have ever been to a "Cop BBQ" where everyone exchanges stories about arresting people over nothing or how they violated this procedure or that, up to and including a person's civil rights and, "this DA made it stick," or "this judge looks the other way."

The "people" support this b/c if something doesn't look right (tacticlad ninja shows up at the hunter safety zero range w/ a legal SBR and that stamp) they'd rather it be addressed and sorted out in the courts than to have it turn out to be shady. (If we'd only caught [Cho, Hassan, Ramsi Youssef, etc] when he was acting like a maniac before he took his game to the next level...)

If I had a stamp that said "Zombies" I'd shred it and get some legit paper before I took it out of the house.

My 2cents.
this post touches on why I wouldnt use an NFA weapon for HD or SD purposes,,,

NeverMore1701
02-10-2010, 13:05
I'd say some people have their panties wound a little too tightly....

KalashniKEV
02-10-2010, 13:07
Damn, I do not know what "LEO BBQ's" you go to, but I know myself and my fellow investigators and patrol officers have not egaged in the conduct you describe.

My father is retired NYPD (20+), a lot of my former soldiers have gone LEO, and a lot of the guys I grew up with are LEO too... it's always the same story and some variations on the same old plays.

On the one hand, you do what you have to do to get the bad guy... on the other hand I've never met a "good cop" in my life.


At the time of arrest the patrol officers have to present the case (by telephone) to an on duty ADA...

No possible way that could ever work in a major jurisdiction... but I like it!


Perhaps the fine folks I work with in my department just have higher morals and pride in their work than the LEOs at the BBQ's you have been to.

I don't doubt it... keep up the good work and if you ever need to borrow a DVD, talk to someone who routinely does search warrants in the inner city. They likely have an AMAZING collection... lol.

KalashniKEV
02-10-2010, 13:11
this post touches on why I wouldnt use an NFA weapon for HD or SD purposes,,,

Back on topic... there are better weapons for Home Defense...

SD is self defense I assume, b/c SBRs in the suppressed role ROCK!!

TrooperBrian
02-10-2010, 18:27
Damn, I do not know what "LEO BBQ's" you go to, but I know myself and my fellow investigators and patrol officers have not egaged in the conduct you describe.

At the time of arrest the patrol officers have to present the case (by telephone) to an on duty ADA to be either accepted or declined based on the PC. If a case is even slightly "weak" the case will be declined and either dropped or forwarded to us (CID) for further investigation.

Perhaps the fine folks I work with in my department just have higher morals and pride in their work than the LEOs at the BBQ's you have been to.
I might also point out that a bad reason is not grounds for arrest. SBRs and suppressors are a federal matter, and the ATF is the enforcing agency. All state, county, and local LE are hands off.

KalashniKEV
02-10-2010, 20:25
SBRs and suppressors are a federal matter, and the ATF is the enforcing agency. All state, county, and local LE are hands off.

Yes, good call on that.

It would not be smart to assume though that b/c NFA is Fedlaw, the only way to get balled up is by some Federale w/ a zoom lens hiding behind a tree...

phxfa
02-10-2010, 23:01
Back on topic... there are better weapons for Home Defense...

SD is self defense I assume, b/c SBRs in the suppressed role ROCK!!
self defence/home defence, whatever, If I'm going in balls deep, its full auto/SBR/suppressed, Ive got the capability, do you? get out of your mom's closet RICHARD CRANIUM

KalashniKEV
02-11-2010, 08:36
self defence/home defence, whatever, If I'm going in balls deep, its full auto/SBR/suppressed, Ive got the capability, do you? get out of your mom's closet RICHARD CRANIUM

I don't understand this post.

Yes I have the capability... do you? You type like a delusional Brit who never went to school.

HAIL CAESAR
02-11-2010, 15:03
self defence/home defence, whatever, If I'm going in balls deep, its full auto/SBR/suppressed, Ive got the capability, do you? get out of your mom's closet RICHARD CRANIUM

I don't understand this post.

Yes I have the capability... do you? You type like a delusional Brit who never went to school.

Maybe a private chat in PM is needed here to clear a thread.

nsabjg
02-13-2010, 17:23
Worth every penny.

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk313/nsabjg/DSC00968.jpg
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk313/nsabjg/DSC01492.jpg

ZombieKiller25
02-14-2010, 08:53
Getting my SBR was the best choice I could have made. After I setup an LLC, I registered 2 lowers.

I run a 7.5" PWS Diablo and a 12.7" LWRC M6A2. Out of the two, I would say the Diablo wins hands down

Kahr_Glockman
02-14-2010, 09:51
I might also point out that a bad reason is not grounds for arrest. SBRs and suppressors are a federal matter, and the ATF is the enforcing agency. All state, county, and local LE are hands off.

Not entirely true. Even Texas has laws against the possession of SBR, Machine Guns, SBS, ect....

If these are not registered with the ATF then it is an offense and enforceable under state law. The state recognizes the federal forms as authorization to possess and allows possession with the paper work. Penal Code Section 46.05
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm#46.02

ampdog
02-17-2010, 05:57
Another nice choice if I do say so... and I do. One suggestion though... you probally will blow your ear drums out with one or more rounds through this weapon with no hearing protection if you dont run a suppressor. Inside a house I train with my suppressor on.

AR15 chambered in 6.8 SPC
POF USA 9.25" upper
Full Auto
Suppressor

http://home.roadrunner.com/~sportbiketireman/Picture-649.jpg

:wave: :bowdown: :rock:

cyrsequipment
02-17-2010, 15:17
Great thread...

The complete ignorance of some people about the ballistics of a .223 round leads me to think that they work in a gun shop...
And the complete paranoia of a couple twits here that think the cops are gonna come get them for nothing leads me to think they are upset Air America went belly up...

An SBR is a wonderful toy, I love mine. I would not make it my HD weapon because as stated before, perception is key. I don't wanna look like I WANTED to kill somebody, my training record is long enough to make that conclusion a possibilty, I don't want to add fuel to the fire.

But being so scared that you don't want to defend yourself if there is a threat is just plain stupid.

Practical, nope... Fun Yep!!!

phxfa
02-17-2010, 20:55
does anybody have a link to the story about th HK employee that used a Ruger AC556 machine gun in a legal, justifiable, self defense shoot? Correct me if Im wrong, but the guy was run through the judicial wringer, damn near bankrupted,almost went to prison, BECAUSE HE USED A MACHINE GUN for self defense and was cleared of all charges,,,,if he used a mini 14, would he have had this challenge? doubt it,,, IMHO, any NFA weapon used in SD is a mistake when theres other options/weapons available

Glockdude1
02-18-2010, 08:23
does anybody have a link to the story about th HK employee that used a Ruger AC556 machine gun in a legal, justifiable, self defense shoot? Correct me if Im wrong, but the guy was run through the judicial wringer, damn near bankrupted,almost went to prison, BECAUSE HE USED A MACHINE GUN for self defense and was cleared of all charges,,,,if he used a mini 14, would he have had this challenge? doubt it,,, IMHO, any NFA weapon used in SD is a mistake when theres other options/weapons available

http://www.davehayes.org/2006/02/10/the-gary-fadden-incident

:cool:

phxfa
02-18-2010, 10:57
http://www.davehayes.org/2006/02/10/the-gary-fadden-incident

:cool:
Thanks, good read,,

AggiePhil
06-07-2011, 08:51
Suppressors and SBRs go hand and hand. I don't want to add an extra 5 or 6 inches to a 16" rifle and the attempt to use that in a confined area. It just doesn't make sense. Instead go with a 10.5" barrel, add a 5" suppressor, and you have a manageable 15.5" barrel length with reduced sound, reduced recoil, and reduced muzzle flash. It's the perfect combination. It's also the combination adopted by many SWAT teams. Which is another reason I will choose it. If it's good enough for the police, it's good enough for me.

It's a purpose-built weapon system. Sure, I don't want it to sit in evidence for a year while a case is being hashed out, but in the rare event that I have to use it in a life or death situation, it served the purpose I designed it for and instantly became worth its weight in...aluminum. :cool: I can stand to be without it for a while knowing that it saved my life.

M&P15T
06-07-2011, 09:49
While an SBR might be fun for some, for my money it doesn't hold an attraction. I like the velocity one gets from a longer barrel, it's pretty important with the 5.56 round.

AggiePhil
06-07-2011, 10:20
Not in a stateside residential structure where the majority of the interior walls are made of drywall. I actually prefer a slight reduction in velocity in that case. Overpenetration is a major concern for me.

agtman
06-07-2011, 18:03
SBRs are definitely awesome, assuming you understand their limits and special uses ...

10" LMT MRP.
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/agtman/MRP-1.jpg

Also awesome: 12" SBR
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/agtman/TR2-6.jpg


:cool:

Glockdude1
06-07-2011, 18:12
SBRs are definitely awesome, assuming you understand their limits and special uses ...

Awesome for different reasons ... :supergrin:
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/agtman/meganSuper.jpg

:cool:

:perfect10:

Let's all give Miss SBR a round of applause!!

12131
06-07-2011, 18:36
Someone obviously wants this thread locked. Good move.

gunsnhoses
06-07-2011, 19:00
Hey, does she have something poking out there south of the border?:whistling:

Mayhem like Me
06-07-2011, 19:41
Awesome ...

cowboy1964
06-07-2011, 19:53
The 5.56/.223 only works when it has enough velocity.

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww193/ThisDayInHistory14/M16FragmentationbyVelocity.jpg

AggiePhil
06-07-2011, 21:11
http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/ammunition.html

AK_Stick
06-07-2011, 23:15
The 5.56/.223 only works when it has enough velocity, and even 14.5" is pushing it, IMO.


While an SBR might be fun for some, for my money it doesn't hold an attraction. I like the velocity one gets from a longer barrel, it's pretty important with the 5.56 round.



At the range you're likely going to use a SBR as a civilian, its going to frag.


Secondly, the high velocity required to fragment, is mostly because of bullet construction. You can negate the majority of the issues people are afraid of, by proper bullet selection. If you're concerned about fragmentation, choose something like the ballistic tip, or black hills/sierra match king style hollow points.

Reb 56
06-07-2011, 23:59
But they sure look cool!!! :supergrin:

I think that's the main reason most guys want an SBR not for any practical purpose.
For the money and red tape and time spent getting it reliable just not worth it. IMHO
I think the AR should be at least 16" to get good velocity and terminal performance from
the 556 rnd. That's just me.

They do look cool though.

Alaskapopo
06-08-2011, 00:04
Load selection has a lot to due with it. 77 and 75 grain bullet fragment at much lower velocities so they can still be very effective in shorter barrels. That said unless you have very specific needs most people are much better off with a 16 inch or longer barrel.
Pat

lucky-gunner
06-08-2011, 13:36
The money part has more to do with your budget.

I like SBR for range guns but the muzzle flash and noise is a bit much for a HD firearm.

If you can afford it I don't see how a firearm can ever be a waste of money. As long as you enjoy it.

__________________
.223 ammunition (http://www.luckygunner.com/rifle/223-remington-ammo)

agtman
06-08-2011, 16:43
At the range you're likely going to use a SBR as a civilian, its going to frag.


Secondly, the high velocity required to fragment, is mostly because of bullet construction. You can negate the majority of the issues people are afraid of, by proper bullet selection. If you're concerned about fragmentation, choose something like the ballistic tip, or black hills/sierra match king style hollow points.

Agree. Well said.

:cool:

cowboy1964
06-08-2011, 22:36
Not in a stateside residential structure where the majority of the interior walls are made of drywall. I actually prefer a slight reduction in velocity in that case. Overpenetration is a major concern for me.

Actually, lowering the velocity may create MORE penetration because the round won't be starting to fragment after it passes through the first barrier(s). Regardless, even full speed .223/5.56s penetrate less than handgun rounds.

Bottom line is if a round won't penetrate drywall and still do damage, how effective could it be?

Shinesintx
06-08-2011, 23:17
The money part has more to do with your budget.

I like SBR for range guns but the muzzle flash and noise is a bit much for a HD firearm.

If you can afford it I don't see how a firearm can ever be a waste of money. As long as you enjoy it.

__________________
.223 ammunition (http://www.luckygunner.com/rifle/223-remington-ammo)

I bought a RRA Ar pistol with a 10.5 inch barrel for my 40th birthday. Not having a stock is not that big of a deal. Slapped an Aimpoint on it. Why did I get it? Looked cool and I wanted one.:whistling:

I dont know what I will ever do with it...I just know that I legally own a 10.5 upper...