00 Buck...9 pellet or 12? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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USMC03Grunt
12-06-2009, 20:52
In the military, we use 9 pellet Winchester buckshot but I've been loading with 12 pellet Federal shells. Any advantage of the 9 pellet loads over the 12?

deadmonkey90
12-06-2009, 21:09
larger pellets

liliysdad
12-06-2009, 22:05
Umm..no. #00 is #00, regardless of the amount of pellets in the shell.

The 12 pellet load generally offer poor pattern performance.

Quack
12-06-2009, 22:38
see which patterns better, and go with that.

aippi
12-06-2009, 22:52
When I started my career our load was Remington 2 3/4" magnum 00 buck which has 12 pellets. Once more females can on board and were having difficulty qualifying, the state went to standard 2 3/4" 00 which is 9 pellet. At close ranges I feel the magnum loads were a disadvantage due to the recoil making it slower to get back on target. However, with the recoil reducing stocks of today that is not an issue. I wish we had those back then. So it comes down to what is the intended use of the load. For HD the magnum loads are over kill, no pun intended. I would avoid them for HD. For duty, hell yes, with a Mesa or knoxx stock recoil is not an issue and they even seem to work better with the heavy load. It just makes sence in a gun fight to put more lead out there. One of those extra pellets may be the one that ends the threat against you.

GoBow
12-07-2009, 18:35
Have used RR 9 pellet 00 for a few years. Recently went to RR 8 pellet 00. Much tighter pattern. Try some, you might be pleasantly surprised...

Teddybear
12-07-2009, 19:27
3 more pellets down range your responsible for

21 shooter
12-07-2009, 19:29
For pattern density I don't think anything can beat Federal's load. It is far better than Remington or Winchester.

method
12-07-2009, 19:40
3 more pellets down range your responsible for

It's also 3 more wound tracts. My 870 and S12 both shoot Federal Flight Control the best, but S&B 12 pellet 00 also patterns well out of either, as well or better than other standard 00 loads.

22highcaps
12-07-2009, 20:27
Like it was said before, see which one patterns better. Out of my 870P with 18.5" VCS IC barrel, the Federal Vital Shok 12 pellet 00BK produced a group several inches smaller than the Remington or Winchester 9 pellet 00BK. Out of a unmodified 18.5" MOD choke barrel Remington 12 pellet 00BK did significantly worse than Remington 9 pellet 00BK.

Mofeen
12-08-2009, 14:29
Why not 15 pellets?

Winchester Super X has em in 3" Magnum Loads.

Z71bill
12-08-2009, 14:45
For HD I use mainly 0 buck which has 12 - .32 caliber pellets and #4 buck which has 27- .24 caliber pellets -

I also have a few 000 buck around for a rainy day :whistling: which is 8 - .36 caliber.

Nothing scientific in it - but doesn't

27 - .24 caliber
12 - .32 caliber
8 - .36 caliber

Just seem better than 9 - .33 caliber :dunno:

Give up .01 per pellet but add 3 pellets

Give up 1 pellet add .03 per pellet

The #4 buck was used when I was going through a - I don't want over penetration through the walls phase - :upeyes:

INhondo
12-08-2009, 16:17
Good tips, I'm not sure I would have thought to pattern Buckshot at HD distances. I now know better. In my younger years I just would have stocked up on the hottest super zingy 3" magnum's and not thought a thing about it. Now my concern is absolute control of the weapon and quick follow-up shots if needed.

GAFinch
12-08-2009, 16:31
Buckshot is going to do some major damage no matter how many pellets you're using.

stengun
12-09-2009, 14:17
Howdy Z71bill,

For HD I use mainly 0 buck which has 12 - .32 caliber pellets and #4 buck which has 27- .24 caliber pellets -

I also have a few 000 buck around for a rainy day :whistling: which is 8 - .36 caliber.

Nothing scientific in it - but doesn't

27 - .24 caliber
12 - .32 caliber
8 - .36 caliber

Just seem better than 9 - .33 caliber :dunno:

Give up .01 per pellet but add 3 pellets

Give up 1 pellet add .03 per pellet

The #4 buck was used when I was going through a - I don't want over penetration through the walls phase - :upeyes:

One thing to remember is back to the birdshot thingy.......The bigger the shot, the better the penetration.

Individual "OOO" pellets will penetrate things that "OO" will not. Same with "O", #1, and especially #4 buckshot.

To me #4 buckshot is totally useless. The same arguements that everybody uses against using birdshot is the same one I use for #4 buckshot.

If you are going to use buckshot of HD, use the biggest and baddest round you can buy.

I have some old Fed. Premium 2 3/4" "OOO" that keeps all 8 pellets on an IDPA target at 40yds and clocks around 1,360ft/sec out of my Rem 1100 12ga. I also haave some Rem Express "OOO" that shoots as good but a little slower at 1320ft/sec.

I have a bunch of the Remington 15rd packs of 2 3/4" "OO". It shoots pretty good in all my 12gauges except there is always one flyer out of my 1100.

Paul

Whazoo
12-09-2009, 21:20
For HD I use mainly 0 buck which has 12 - .32 caliber pellets and #4 buck which has 27- .24 caliber pellets -

I also have a few 000 buck around for a rainy day :whistling: which is 8 - .36 caliber.

Nothing scientific in it - but doesn't

27 - .24 caliber
12 - .32 caliber
8 - .36 caliber

Just seem better than 9 - .33 caliber :dunno:

Give up .01 per pellet but add 3 pellets

Give up 1 pellet add .03 per pellet

The #4 buck was used when I was going through a - I don't want over penetration through the walls phase - :upeyes:

Z - with all the variables in a defensive encounter it's difficult to be "scientific"...but we do have one point to consider, and that is the longitudinal track record of the standard 9 pellet 00 Buck..., since the 1800's it has proven to be - all things considered - a very reliable choice...the smaller shot sizes don't have anything near the "data base" to suggest that their selection is a better idea than the standard load.

Whazoo
12-09-2009, 21:26
Good tips, I'm not sure I would have thought to pattern Buckshot at HD distances. I now know better. In my younger years I just would have stocked up on the hottest super zingy 3" magnum's and not thought a thing about it. Now my concern is absolute control of the weapon and quick follow-up shots if needed.

I did the same thing.., in my younger years I bought and used massive amounts of 3" and 2& 2/4" magnum buck in both 00 and 000 buck...after much shooting..., I settled on the standard 9 pellet 00 buck load - I don't particularly like the "tactical" loads - though some prefer these for comfort.

bfg1971
12-10-2009, 14:26
Why not 15 pellets?

Winchester Super X has em in 3" Magnum Loads.

That's what I am using. As soon as I get some more cash saved up a Knoxx Recoil reducing stock is in the works. Once the whole thing is set up its 6 extra pellets and reduced recoil over the standard 9 pellet load.

Max1775
12-10-2009, 17:56
I like 9 pellet loads and sabot slugs... Never tried 12 pellets.

Apocalypse_Now
12-11-2009, 13:35
It's also 3 more wound tracts. My 870 and S12 both shoot Federal Flight Control the best, but S&B 12 pellet 00 also patterns well out of either, as well or better than other standard 00 loads.

I use the S & B 12 pellet load.. it's a great value and some extra payload, and yes it patterns well out to 25 yards or so out of my FN SLP 22 inch

I also load my own "0" 12 pellet load which patterns even tighter, I use buffer in that load, it seems to help

If you need more than around 25 yards in a normal urban zone you should switch to slugs or use a rifle

Apocalypse_Now
12-11-2009, 13:41
Howdy Z71bill,



One thing to remember is back to the birdshot thingy.......The bigger the shot, the better the penetration.

Individual "OOO" pellets will penetrate things that "OO" will not. Same with "O", #1, and especially #4 buckshot.

To me #4 buckshot is totally useless. The same arguements that everybody uses against using birdshot is the same one I use for #4 buckshot.

If you are going to use buckshot of HD, use the biggest and baddest round you can buy.

I have some old Fed. Premium 2 3/4" "OOO" that keeps all 8 pellets on an IDPA target at 40yds and clocks around 1,360ft/sec out of my Rem 1100 12ga. I also haave some Rem Express "OOO" that shoots as good but a little slower at 1320ft/sec.

I have a bunch of the Remington 15rd packs of 2 3/4" "OO". It shoots pretty good in all my 12gauges except there is always one flyer out of my 1100.

Paul

#4 buck is not worthless.. in fact it penetrates well enough to drop aggressive bipeds, and a 3 inch magnum Federal has 41 #4 pellets, that's a lots of area that's covered. Many people live in apartments and want a low penetration buckshot load, the #4 fills this mission parameter. It penetrates less than 00 by one sheetrock wall or so

In the warm weather I have a load of #4 in the chamber of my bedside Mossberg 500, but behind it are 00 buck loads. That way if the first shot ends the situation, it will have been a safer load to fire in an urban environ. In colder weather The chamber carries 00 (factoring in the clothing issue)

Whazoo
12-15-2009, 08:47
That's what I am using. As soon as I get some more cash saved up a Knoxx Recoil reducing stock is in the works. Once the whole thing is set up its 6 extra pellets and reduced recoil over the standard 9 pellet load.

I will have to check out this set up...interesting.

A6Gator
12-15-2009, 16:22
see which patterns better, and go with that.

Take a look at #1 buck. In a 2 3/4" load, it has 16(.30)pellets. The extra .03" of a 00 (or .06 of a 000)might make a difference, but I'm not sure how much. The military uses 00, because in clearing ops because overpenetration is not much of a concern. YMMV.

My guns pattern much better w/#1 than 00 (or 000). I think, at house/building clearing distances, it's a good balance, but you'll be okay w/either, as long as you know where it's going.

Onmilo
12-15-2009, 17:20
12 pellet loads shed velocity and retained pellet energy faster than 9 pellet loads making them less effective at longer ranges than the 9 pellet loads.

As stated for reasons not always clear, the 12 pellet loads tend to blow patterns and choking doesn't help, it tends to make this problem even worse and you may end up with a very wide donut shaped pattern which means those three extra pellets and the basic nine are flying around your target instead of into it.

Ferdinandd
12-15-2009, 21:21
I've mainly been practicing with 12x00, because I instinctively use 00 due to the fact that it's something of a standard, and my BPI manuals don't have data for lighter loads. However, I've become a fan of the lighter recoiling 8-9x00 factory loads due to reduced recoil, and I just obtained data for 8x00 using the components and propellants that I already have. I think I'll be moving in that direction increasingly. So far, with minimal load development, the 9x00 loads are patterning 6-8" at 25 yards. I figure this performance is just about ideal for HD and my other BK applications. I kind of compare it to a burst from a 9mm SMG, although I know that this isn't exactly true with respect to accuracy and penetration.

Whazoo
12-16-2009, 21:48
12 pellet loads shed velocity and retained pellet energy faster than 9 pellet loads making them less effective at longer ranges than the 9 pellet loads.

As stated for reasons not always clear, the 12 pellet loads tend to blow patterns and choking doesn't help, it tends to make this problem even worse and you may end up with a very wide donut shaped pattern which means those three extra pellets and the basic nine are flying around your target instead of into it.

without a tricked-out choke the shotgun is a 20 meter gun...so I don't think that the pattern is much of an issue.

Apocalypse_Now
12-17-2009, 18:59
Another factor is who else in your home might have to use that shottie in an emergency. It's not a factor at my home since my gal has either a tricked out Mini 14 or a CAR15 available, plus her handguns

If your older children or wife need to possibly use the shottie, go with the reduced recoil tac-loads

Apocalypse_Now
12-17-2009, 19:01
without a tricked-out choke the shotgun is a 20 meter gun...so I don't think that the pattern is much of an issue.

That's the way I look at it.. if I have to go outside, alone, outside of my own yard, I will be using a rifle

Inside my home no shots will be over 35 feet

method
12-17-2009, 20:40
without a tricked-out choke the shotgun is a 20 meter gun...so I don't think that the pattern is much of an issue.

Federal Flight Control buck will hold a usable pattern out to twice that far from improved cylinder. Dixie Tri-Ball will put three .60 caliber balls into 6 inches or so at 40 meters from a full choke, if you really want some energy retention.

Ferdinandd
12-19-2009, 17:24
I was able to spend some time this afternoon doing load testing with 00bk. most of it was with 8x00 loads over Herco propellant. I had five round samples of different variations of wad and buffer in order to evaluate the impact of these variables on pattern size. I really liked two of my configurations that yielded consistently fist-sized groups at 15 yards.

To finish up, I shot some of my 12x00 over max loads of Blue Dot. Recoil with this round is brisk, to understate it. I don't think I'll ever load another round of this stuff - 8 or 9x00 seems to do what I need, and it costs less to load, and is a lot more fun to shoot.

Whazoo
12-21-2009, 19:01
Federal Flight Control buck will hold a usable pattern out to twice that far from improved cylinder. Dixie Tri-Ball will put three .60 caliber balls into 6 inches or so at 40 meters from a full choke, if you really want some energy retention.

I have never used the Flight Control load - the reference to 20 meters is the typical defensive shotgun reliable distance limit to placing all pellets within a typical two-legged target. A 40 meter buckshot gun that can do same is very impressive..., I have yet to see that one, though I have seen some Vang's that would deliver a group a little larger than a softball at 20 meters...

shootingbuff
12-24-2009, 20:52
Have used RR 9 pellet 00 for a few years. Recently went to RR 8 pellet 00. Much tighter pattern. Try some, you might be pleasantly surprised...

plus 1

or better yet is the fed w/FC

Either will make you stand up and have differnt outlook on the range of buck.

Win military OO sucks hard btw.

sb

shootingbuff
12-25-2009, 16:49
In the military, we use 9 pellet Winchester buckshot but I've been loading with 12 pellet Federal shells. Any advantage of the 9 pellet loads over the 12?


Missed your question and got wrapped up in the conversation.

To answer your question 8-9 pellet loads usally pattern much better and have less recoil.

sb

Z71bill
12-29-2009, 21:55
Just for the hell of it -

I calculated the grains in a standard load of #4, 0, 00, 000 buckshot

#4 = 27 pellets 16 grains each total of 432 or .98 ounce

0 = 12 pellets 49 grains each total of 588 or 1.344 ounce

00 = 9 pellets 55 grains each total of 498 or 1.13 ounce

000 = 8 pellets of 73 grains each total of 584 or 1.334 ounce

Although I really believe any of these loads will do the trick at inside my home ranges - the #4 does come out on the light side

I thought that 0 & 000 would come out on top in the total amount of lead weight - but was surprised a little by how much more lead is in the 0 & 000 buck. 18-19% more. :shocked: Is significant.

Think I will stick with my 0 buck for HD - but still like to blast away with cheap Walmart 00 buck value packs. :supergrin:

I have a small pile of 00 buck value packs and would not feel under powered if I needed to use them -:wavey:

Apocalypse_Now
01-02-2010, 12:00
I must contradict myself a bit here because I just discovered a new load.. the tri ball load from Dixie ammo. It is a 3 or 3.5 inch shell with (3) .60 caliber hard cast balls. These babies, with the right choke (modified cylinder seems to work very well) easily makes the 12 GA a 40+ yard weapon, with plenty of penetration. I am currently getting set up to load a case of these babies, since the owner of Dixie is a class act and has revealed his recipe to handloaders.. on several forums. This load looks like it can do it all, unless you are in a very urban area and fear overpenetration. I am loading my batch up for the upcoming zombie war, and general use at that time. I will order the 3 cavity mold from NEI, they make great molds

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

How's this for a 40 yard group with 915 grains of lead? Like being hit with a three round burst from a 60 caliber subgun!

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products_files/image012.jpg

Whazoo
01-03-2010, 14:45
Federal Flight Control buck will hold a usable pattern out to twice that far from improved cylinder. Dixie Tri-Ball will put three .60 caliber balls into 6 inches or so at 40 meters from a full choke, if you really want some energy retention.

Method - I have tried this load in my two 870's - both are still 20 meter guns, you must have an great shotgun, I remember a writing from Elmer Keith, who at the time was testing military shotguns headed off to WWII. He made particular note of one model '97 that provided amazing hand-sized groups with 00 Buck at (I think 25 yards)...so this may have been a 40 meter gun... I am considering sending one of the barrels (the worse one) off to Vang for backboring and choke treatment...

Whazoo
01-03-2010, 14:49
I must contradict myself a bit here because I just discovered a new load.. the tri ball load from Dixie ammo. It is a 3 or 3.5 inch shell with (3) .60 caliber hard cast balls. These babies, with the right choke (modified cylinder seems to work very well) easily makes the 12 GA a 40+ yard weapon, with plenty of penetration. I am currently getting set up to load a case of these babies, since the owner of Dixie is a class act and has revealed his recipe to handloaders.. on several forums. This load looks like it can do it all, unless you are in a very urban area and fear overpenetration. I am loading my batch up for the upcoming zombie war, and general use at that time. I will order the 3 cavity mold from NEI, they make great molds

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

How's this for a 40 yard group with 915 grains of lead? Like being hit with a three round burst from a 60 caliber subgun!

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products_files/image012.jpg

I like this! I have shot 8 whitetails w/a .54 cal muzzle loader, which is no slouch in stopping power and penetration with a round ball...this is even better...do you have a muzzle velocity for this load?

Apocalypse_Now
01-12-2010, 13:28
I like this! I have shot 8 whitetails w/a .54 cal muzzle loader, which is no slouch in stopping power and penetration with a round ball...this is even better...do you have a muzzle velocity for this load?

Dixie claims 1050 FPS 3 inch and 1100 FPS for the 3.5 inch from a 20 inch barrel

inzone
01-12-2010, 13:52
I like the Centurion buckshot and ball shotshells....