Norm Van Wagenen has a trial date. [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Norm Van Wagenen has a trial date.


BB61
12-10-2009, 12:19
Just as a note, Norm is scheduled for a jury trial on February 8, 9, & 11th, 2010. It looks like he has 19 Class A misdemeanors for the Unlawful Sale (Firearms) by a Dealer. These were originally felonies but were amended to Class A misdemeanor as a result, I believe, of a change in the law. I would assume that he is going to trial because he rejected a plea deal (which are almost always offered). I would also assume that the reason is that any guilty plea would require the forfeiture of his FFL.

I'm assming he is charged under 76-10-527(1)(c) which is a Class A misdemeanor (the court records show sub-part 4 which is a 3rd degree felony). BTW, sub-part (1)(c) discusses 76-10-526 which deals with background checks by FFL dealers.


76-10-527:
(1) A dealer is guilty of a class A misdemeanor who willfully and intentionally:


(a) requests, obtains, or seeks to obtain criminal history background information under false pretenses;


(b) disseminates criminal history background information; or


(c) violates Section 76-10-526.


(2) A person who purchases or transfers a firearm is guilty of a felony of the third degree if the person willfully and intentionally makes a false statement of the information required for a criminal background check in Section 76-10-526.


(3) Except as otherwise provided in Subsection (1), a dealer is guilty of a felony of the third degree if the dealer willfully and intentionally sells or transfers a firearm in violation of this part.


(4) A person is guilty of a felony of the third degree if the person purchases a firearm with the intent to:


(a) resell or otherwise provide a firearm to a person who is ineligible to purchase or receive a firearm from a dealer; or


(b) transport a firearm out of this state to be resold to an ineligible person.

§ 76-10-526. Criminal background check prior to purchase of a firearm--Fee--Exemption for concealed firearm permit holders


(1) For purposes of this section, “valid permit to carry a concealed firearm” does not include a temporary permit issued pursuant to Section 53-5-705.


(2)(a) To establish personal identification and residence in this state for purposes of this part, a dealer shall require an individual receiving a firearm to present one photo identification on a form issued by a governmental agency of the state.


(b) A dealer may not accept a driving privilege card issued in accordance with Section 53-3-207 as proof of identification for the purpose of establishing personal identification and residence in this state as required under this Subsection (2).


(3) A criminal history background check is required for the sale of a firearm by a licensed firearm dealer in the state.


(4)(a) An individual, except a dealer, purchasing a firearm from a dealer shall consent in writing to a criminal background check, on a form provided by the division.


(b) The form shall contain the following information:


(i) the dealer identification number;


(ii) the name and address of the individual receiving the firearm;


(iii) the date of birth, height, weight, eye color, and hair color of the individual receiving the firearm; and


(iv) the Social Security number or any other identification number of the individual receiving the firearm.


(5)(a) The dealer shall send the form required by Subsection (4) to the division immediately upon its completion.


(b) No dealer shall sell or transfer any firearm to an individual until the dealer has provided the division with the information in Subsection (4) and has received approval from the division under Subsection (7).


(6) The dealer shall make a request for criminal history background information by telephone or other electronic means to the division and shall receive approval or denial of the inquiry by telephone or other electronic means.


(7) When the dealer calls for or requests a criminal history background check, the division shall:


(a) review the criminal history files, including juvenile court records, to determine if the individual is prohibited from purchasing, possessing, or transferring a firearm by state or federal law;


(b) inform the dealer that:


(i) the records indicate the individual is so prohibited; or


(ii) the individual is approved for purchasing, possessing, or transferring a firearm;


(c) provide the dealer with a unique transaction number for that inquiry; and


(d) provide a response to the requesting dealer during the call for a criminal background, or by return call, or other electronic means, without delay, except in case of electronic failure or other circumstances beyond the control of the division, the division shall advise the dealer of the reason for the delay and give the dealer an estimate of the length of the delay.


(8)(a) The division shall not maintain any records of the criminal history background check longer than 20 days from the date of the dealer's request if the division determines that the individual receiving the gun is not prohibited from purchasing, possessing, or transferring the firearm under state or federal law.


(b) However, the division shall maintain a log of requests containing the dealer's federal firearms number, the transaction number, and the transaction date for a period of 12 months.


(9) If the criminal history background check discloses information indicating that the individual attempting to purchase the firearm is prohibited from purchasing, possessing, or transferring a firearm, the division shall inform the law enforcement agency in the jurisdiction where the person resides.


(10) If an individual is denied the right to purchase a firearm under this section, the individual may review the individual's criminal history information and may challenge or amend the information as provided in Section 53-10-108.


(11) The division shall make rules as provided in Title 63G, Chapter 3, Utah Administrative Rulemaking Act, to ensure the identity, confidentiality, and security of all records provided by the division pursuant to this part are in conformance with the requirements of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, Pub. L. No. 103-159, 107 Stat. 1536 (1993).


(12)(a)(i) All dealers shall collect a criminal history background check fee which is $7.50.


(ii) This fee remains in effect until changed by the division through the process under Section 63J-1-504.


(b)(i) The dealer shall forward at one time all fees collected for criminal history background checks performed during the month to the division by the last day of the month following the sale of a firearm.


(ii) The division shall deposit the fees in the General Fund as dedicated credits to cover the cost of administering and conducting the criminal history background check program.


(13) An individual with a concealed firearm permit issued pursuant to Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, shall be exempt from the background check and corresponding fee required in this section for the purchase of a firearm if:


(a) the individual presents the individual's concealed firearm permit to the dealer prior to purchase of the firearm; and


(b) the dealer verifies with the division that the individual's concealed firearm permit is valid.

Spitzerbullet
12-15-2009, 12:27
Has he ever indicated what his intentions are if he's found not guilty? Will he restock and go back to business as usual or just quit and go fishing? I'd hate to see him go. He never gave me any grief and I got several good guns there.

BB61
12-15-2009, 17:34
I think that is the million dollar question. One could argue he is reducing his inventory as he expects to loose and he doesn't want to have to liquidate to another FFL. One could also argue that he is tired of the whole mess and that he wants out regardless of the outcome. In any event, we all loose when a busy FFL leaves the business. I guess we will all know early next year.

gsr
12-17-2009, 09:07
I'm inclined to think Norm may find something to do besides selling guns and guitars in the near future. The last few times I was in his store, I noticed the gun racks were for sale. I also noticed a severe lack of inventory of almost everything. It doesn't bode well. However, there are at least two new gun stores in Utah County to help fill the void, Compact Guns in Lehi, and Discount Guns in Provo (not to be confused with Discount Pawn and Firearms in American Fork).

jcbarlow
12-17-2009, 09:13
Good riddance. I'm sorry, but am I the only one who isn't sad to see him go? There's no room for a gun store in Utah that has terrible customer service and deals guns not in accordance to the law.

Kenpo
12-17-2009, 16:57
^^^ + 100%

Openroadracer
12-24-2009, 09:37
Good riddance. I'm sorry, but am I the only one who isn't sad to see him go? There's no room for a gun store in Utah that has terrible customer service and deals guns not in accordance to the law.

What do you mean by "gun deals not in accordance to the law"?

I bought several guns from him and never had a problem with the "customer service". He typically had the lowest prices on new firearms, especially Glocks.

jcbarlow
12-24-2009, 11:49
I guess I should say "allegedly deals guns not in accordance to the law". Is that better? I still stand by my statement on customer service. I'm not the only one here who has had terrible first-hand experiences with him.

Openroadracer
12-24-2009, 12:20
I know, I've heard many of complaints about him, or the staff. I'd hate to see him close though. The Glocks, and Ruger I've bought there were $50 cheaper than anywhere else.

Teckomando
12-25-2009, 16:43
I know, I've heard many of complaints about him, or the staff. I'd hate to see him close though. The Glocks, and Ruger I've bought there were $50 cheaper than anywhere else.I bought an XD from him when I was in the area, because it was $50 cheaper than any place else I saw them. Customer service did suck when I bought it. I don't really care as long as I get a good deal. Customer service at Impact in Ogden sucks now. Mostly because it's so damned busy. It didn't used to suck. I shopped with Impact when they were just two guys in a small shop in that industrial complex. The only gun store I've been to that has actual customer service is Kent's in Ogden. Everybody else is just too damned big to give real customer service.

Openroadracer
12-25-2009, 17:00
I've had good luck at Gunnie's, right down the street from Norm's.

BB61
12-26-2009, 10:15
I agree, Gunnies has EXCELLENT customer service.

opskmallory
12-27-2009, 09:08
The only joy I ever found in buying from Norm was how much I saved, especially on used guns. He was so pro-Glock, that other used guns (SA XD's in particular), he sold for cheap just to get rid of them. I bought two used XD's from him (XD-9 4" and XD-40 SC) for under $400 each and both were in great condition.

His ammo prices were good too. If I wanted to talk guns, that was the last place I'd go. My visits were when I knew exactly what I wanted, and was looking for a good price.

FWIW, Glock prices at Discount Guns & Ammo in Provo are the same as what Norm sold them for, at $499 or less. AND, they are an authorized Glock LE dealer too.

I won't feel bad when he's gone. It was fun to go in and look a couple of years ago. Now...well not so much. I like Gunnies, and after my great experience getting my G23 from Discount, I think I've found a new place to hang out and talk guns - plus, most of the guys there are cops too. :)

Openroadracer
12-27-2009, 10:19
I'll have to check them out, haven't been in there yet.

jcbarlow
12-27-2009, 16:40
Where is this "Discount" store you speak of?

opskmallory
12-27-2009, 16:58
765 S 100 East in Provo. They just barely opened up, but have a good stock of Glocks as well as several other guns and ammo. They also carry duty and tactical gear too.

Timpinutah
12-28-2009, 22:00
I for one hopes things go well with Norm. Dealing with his attitude just added to the gun buying experience. If he calls it quits, it will seem like an era will end. From the time, as a college student, I pawned my .22 revolver to feed my family twenty-three years ago, until I purchased my Glock 23, he has always been a point of conversation with my friends and acquaintances. No discussion about gun shops would be complete without bringing up Norm VanWagenen.

jcbarlow
12-28-2009, 22:37
765 S 100 East in Provo. They just barely opened up, but have a good stock of Glocks as well as several other guns and ammo. They also carry duty and tactical gear too.

Thank you. I'll have to go check them out.

econjon
01-18-2010, 11:57
I'll hate to see him go out if that's what he ends up doing.

I've been the recipient of a lot of great gun deals there over the years. Not just new stuff but because so many people sell used guns to him I have had great deals on guns that I doubt I could find at any other gun store in the state, like a pristine condition 10mm Delta Elite for a whopping $450. Even If I could find that gun somewhere else it would be double that price (and double on ksl.com classifieds when they do show up).

I'd bet for every 1 person that shows up to actually buy a gun, he gets dozens and dozens who clog up the little shop and take employees time and attention away from real buyers when they have no intention of purchasing. I understand that's probably the nature of the beast for a gun salesman but after 30 years of that I'd probably get a bit crabby too. He's got an interesting sense of humor that takes some time to get used to, but overall I was always treated with an acceptable level of courtesy. If a potential buyer doesn't have a good experience there, go to Gunnies and pay a little more and you'll get the service you want. I've walked into other types of stores where I was turned off by the service I received...I went somewhere else. I didn't wish that company to go out of business over it.

jcbarlow
01-18-2010, 13:04
I'll hate to see him go out if that's what he ends up doing.

I've been the recipient of a lot of great gun deals there over the years. Not just new stuff but because so many people sell used guns to him I have had great deals on guns that I doubt I could find at any other gun store in the state, like a pristine condition 10mm Delta Elite for a whopping $450. Even If I could find that gun somewhere else it would be double that price (and double on ksl.com classifieds when they do show up).

I'd bet for every 1 person that shows up to actually buy a gun, he gets dozens and dozens who clog up the little shop and take employees time and attention away from real buyers when they have no intention of purchasing. I understand that's probably the nature of the beast for a gun salesman but after 30 years of that I'd probably get a bit crabby too. He's got an interesting sense of humor that takes some time to get used to, but overall I was always treated with an acceptable level of courtesy. If a potential buyer doesn't have a good experience there, go to Gunnies and pay a little more and you'll get the service you want. I've walked into other types of stores where I was turned off by the service I received...I went somewhere else. I didn't wish that company to go out of business over it.

I understand your point. I don't necessarily want him to go out of business, I'm just not going to miss him if he leaves. Just my opinion. We have seen others give your sentiments exactly and I can appreciate that as well. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

econjon
01-18-2010, 21:25
I understand your point. I don't necessarily want him to go out of business, I'm just not going to miss him if he leaves. Just my opinion. We have seen others give your sentiments exactly and I can appreciate that as well. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

It's all good, I didn't specifically have your response in mind when typing what I did - I've just heard a lot of pretty negative stuff when ol' Norm's name comes up around town or on the web, and whether folks like him or hate him I think he really does provide the community with a valuable service...if someone wants to get rid of a bunch of guns they just inherited or whatever, they probably aren't going to go to Gunnies.

Norm is a colorful character for sure! The funny thing is that the market usually corrects this type of behavior but not in Norm's case - he once told me that he sells more guns than any other dealer in the western U.S. He's doing something right.

Robs_G23
01-28-2010, 15:17
Great prices on many of the guns they had. Crappy customer service and I heard lots of garbage (re: gun info) come out of the mouths of those who worked there. They were never willing to order anything and always put down any brand of gun they didn't carry.

Kind of sorry to see them go...

ustate
02-10-2010, 19:36
I stopped by his store this afternoon on my way home, Norm was open and talking on the phone but for the moment still open. I was really surprised to see that he has even fewer guns there now than when I was there a few months ago. He only had about 4 semi-autos and about 5 revolvers, the rest of his display cases were bare.

Spitzerbullet
02-13-2010, 09:45
So, did the trial take place or was it postponed again? I can't find any news about it.

jarubla
02-18-2010, 14:37
Any update?

reerc
02-27-2010, 21:14
Good riddance. I'm sorry, but am I the only one who isn't sad to see him go? There's no room for a gun store in Utah that has terrible customer service and deals guns not in accordance to the law.

No, you're not the only one.

Regardless of his guilt or innocence, he personally insulted and humiliated me; treated me like crap - and I'm supposed to reach in my pocket, pull money out, and put it into his hand? I think not.

:headscratch:

alex1b
03-10-2010, 16:29
Good riddance. I'm sorry, but am I the only one who isn't sad to see him go? There's no room for a gun store in Utah that has terrible customer service and deals guns not in accordance to the law.

terrible customer service for me too. i'm not sad, the guy was a jerk the first and last time I went to his store

econjon
03-13-2010, 16:16
No, you're not the only one.

Regardless of his guilt or innocence, he personally insulted and humiliated me; treated me like crap - and I'm supposed to reach in my pocket, pull money out, and put it into his hand? I think not.

:headscratch:


I'm curious what Norm said or did that actually humiliated you? Crappy customer service is one thing, but to actually be humiliated it must have been bad. Care to share?

Spitzerbullet
06-14-2010, 09:11
Looks like it may be over and he will keep his license.

http://heraldextra.com/news/local/article_5a89cc86-965d-5637-b628-a3b86738d3dd.html

BB61
06-14-2010, 10:27
Looks like it may be over and he will keep his license.

http://heraldextra.com/news/local/article_5a89cc86-965d-5637-b628-a3b86738d3dd.html

Interesting. I thought a PiA would lead to a revocation of his license.

jarubla
09-10-2010, 22:02
I drove by his store tonight and saw a for sale sign on his business. Interesting

-Jay

ustate
09-14-2010, 08:18
I went inside about a month ago and there wasn't a single firearm there. Like was just mentioned there is a sign out front putting the building up for sale or lease.

gsr
11-01-2010, 15:49
I have stopped in to Norm's since the last poster, and it's about the same. I don't think he will be in the gun business much longer.