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ntech
12-12-2009, 01:14
I recently purchased a G26. I am new to 9mm ammunition, and I have a few questions pertaining to selecting the best ammo for SD:

1. would like to know what is the most effective round that will ensure proper expansion for SD?

2. Which brand is most recommended?

3. Which grain count should I get?

4. Should I get the +P?

5. What does bonded mean?

sentinel208
12-12-2009, 03:14
I believe that bonded refers to the bullet core (lead) being permanently (bonded/attached) to the jacket which would prevent the lead core from separating from the jacket thereby enhancing penetration. As for my carry round, I went with the Federal HST 124gr +P.

IndyGunFreak
12-12-2009, 03:29
I recently purchased a G26. I am new to 9mm ammunition, and I have a few questions pertaining to selecting the best ammo for SD:

1. would like to know what is the most effective round that will ensure proper expansion for SD?

2. Which brand is most recommended?

3. Which grain count should I get?

4. Should I get the +P?

5. What does bonded mean?

The above poster explained bonded perfectly. Its real benefit is for penetration through barriers(auto glass, doors, etc.). There really is no "best"... There are some popular ones, and some not so popular, but honestly, thats not what you should be basing your choices on.

1st. Is the round you select easily available in your area, or are you gonna spend months on a waiting list? Or at the very least, is it regularly in stock at online retailers.

2nd. Is the round dependable and reasonably accurate in your gun. If I like(for example) the 147gr Gold Dot and say it performs best, but it constantly malfunctions in your gun or you can't hit the broad side of a barn with it, then its not the best for you, no matter what I say.

Go to your local ammo retailer, get a couple of different JHPs, Speer, Federal, Winchester, all make some pretty good ones. Take them to the range, and shoot them. Get an idea what you like best. Go get more of that, and shoot around a 100rds, to make sure it functions well in your gun.

then PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. Minor differences in ammo, is not gonna be what ends a gun fight, where you put that round is what will save your bacon.

Now, having said all that, I really like the 147gr Gold Dot, 124gr +P Gold Dot in 9mm, for all the reasons I listed above. Thats been my 9mm choices for the last few years.

IGF

jesse2205
12-12-2009, 03:53
The consensus around here for grain count is 124. My personal favorite ammo is the federal hst, but good luck finding any of that. If you ever see any at your local store, pick it up and give it a try. A great ammo that is pretty easily available and is SUPERB IMO would be Speer Gold Dot 124gr.

IndyGunFreak
12-12-2009, 04:51
The consensus around here for grain count is 124.

When you say around here, are you referring to your area PD's, or your friends, or "here" on GT. I'd hardly say there's a consensus on anything regarding this subject, in any caliber, here on GT... :)

IGF

DocKWL
12-12-2009, 08:33
I recently purchased a G26. I am new to 9mm ammunition, and I have a few questions pertaining to selecting the best ammo for SD:

1. would like to know what is the most effective round that will ensure proper expansion for SD?

2. Which brand is most recommended?

3. Which grain count should I get?

4. Should I get the +P?

5. What does bonded mean?

Use any one of the following:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

Which one is best? The one you have in your weapon at the time when you need it.

moncoacp
12-12-2009, 08:53
124 gr seems to be the overwhelming choice. What is the disadvantage, if any, of using 115gr FMG for practice? This is the easiest and easiest round for me to find.

unit1069
12-12-2009, 10:21
The best self-defense JHP ammo is the one that has proven itself capable of the FBI's minimum penetration 12" standard, to begin with.

After that, fire a number of different premium self-defense rounds offered by established ammo makers and select the one(s) that have the best accuracy and shooting characteristics in your G-26, including absolute reliability.

sentinel208
12-12-2009, 11:48
This is by no means a scientific test but it's interesting just the same
http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9#p/u/35/DPLoSoGxsBA

m4arc
12-12-2009, 12:05
I carry Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ in all my Glocks including my G26. I love the stuff.

packinaglock
12-12-2009, 19:05
I believe that bonded refers to the bullet core (lead) being permanently (bonded/attached) to the jacket which would prevent the lead core from separating from the jacket thereby enhancing penetration. As for my carry round, I went with the Federal HST 124gr +P.

Same here!

IndyGunFreak
12-12-2009, 19:10
124 gr seems to be the overwhelming choice. What is the disadvantage, if any, of using 115gr FMG for practice? This is the easiest and easiest round for me to find.

Overwhelming choice where? For every dept carrying a 124gr +P round, you can find another issuing a 115gr +P or 147gr round.

None of these are really an "overwhelming choice" or Caliber corner wouldn't really be what it is.. :) I don't see anything wrong w/ using 115gr FMJ for practice. Since thats the standard WWB Value Pack weight, I'd say there's a lot of folks using that round to practice.

IGF

IndyGunFreak
12-12-2009, 19:12
This is by no means a scientific test but it's interesting just the same
http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9#p/u/35/DPLoSoGxsBA

Whats even more fun is finding it in stock.

IGF

beforeobamabans
12-12-2009, 19:18
I guess we've all got to go through a learning curve to get to where we are confident that we have a carry ammo that, if not the "best", will at the least be effective in our weapons in the type of scenario we anticipate finding ourselves in. FWIW, the answer I've come up with is Ranger-T 124+p and 230+p and I've recently laid in a lifetime supply in case the Progressistas outlaw it. YMMV.

jesse2205
12-12-2009, 19:45
When you say around here, are you referring to your area PD's, or your friends, or "here" on GT. I'd hardly say there's a consensus on anything regarding this subject, in any caliber, here on GT... :)

IGF

Sorry, that was really just my opinion by reading most threads. I personally use 147. Many say that 147 is too slow and doesn't expand like it should.

IndyGunFreak
12-12-2009, 20:20
Sorry, that was really just my opinion by reading most threads. I personally use 147. Many say that 147 is too slow and doesn't expand like it should.

LOL... Coming to any sort of consensus on, weight, brand, etc(even if you toss caliber out) would be akin to Right To Life groups coming to an agreement w/ Pro Choice groups.

It'll just NEVER happen.

IGF

racer88
12-12-2009, 20:33
Seems that asking about the "best ammunition" on this forum is akin to asking which engine oil is best on a car forum. :duel:

JRWnTN
12-12-2009, 21:10
3. Which grain count should I get?

When used to describe bullets, "grain" is the measure of weight, sort of like grams, ounces, etc. "Grain count" is an odd way to ask "What weight bullet should I get?"

IndyGunFreak
12-12-2009, 21:27
Seems that asking about the "best ammunition" on this forum is akin to asking which engine oil is best on a car forum. :duel:

:rofl: .. Probably worse.

Besides, we all know Mobile One is the best! :)

IGF

carbofan21
12-13-2009, 00:01
if you want expansion and penetration, look for some 147 grain federal HST

ntech
12-13-2009, 00:17
When used to describe bullets, "grain" is the measure of weight, sort of like grams, ounces, etc. "Grain count" is an odd way to ask "What weight bullet should I get?"

That actually was what I was asking. I was curious what the opinions were on 115 vs. 124 vs. 147 etc.

For self defense purposes, is lighter better? Heavier? I hear with larger calibers, heavier is better, but other people are saying that the 147 grain ammunition doesn't expand properly in the 9 mm caliber. It is all a bit confusing for me.

IndyGunFreak
12-13-2009, 00:24
That actually was what I was asking. I was curious what the opinions were on 115 vs. 124 vs. 147 etc.

For self defense purposes, is lighter better? Heavier? I hear with larger calibers, heavier is better, but other people are saying that the 147 grain ammunition doesn't expand properly in the 9 mm caliber. It is all a bit confusing for me.

Again, this is all heavily debated and opinionated...

*GENERALLY SPEAKING*
Light loads --- Go faster, penetrate less
Heavy Loads --- Go slower, Penetrate more
Middle weights --- Go reasonably fast, penetrate reasonably well

All will *generally* expand reasonably well. Light loads typically expand very fast, thus resulting in them dumping their energy quickly, and penetrating less. Heavy loads typically expand slower, and maintain their energy while penetrating deeper.

Its honestly something you have to research on your own.. if someone tells you something is the best, they are lying. They're telling you what they like the best. You have to decide what you value the most. I personally value penetration, so I carry heavy loads. You'll hear others who value some "ft lbs" energy number...

Again.. You're gonna have to research for yourself, or you're just gonna get stuff regurgitated to you all night long.. :)

IGF

RMTactical
12-13-2009, 00:40
Seems that asking about the "best ammunition" on this forum is akin to asking which engine oil is best on a car forum. :duel:

There's probably a lot of truth to that. In reality, as long as you are choosing amongst the premium loads with the most recent and proven HP technology, it won't likely matter.

More importantly, train with your weapon, shot placement means so much more than the difference between HST's or Gold Dots.

IndyGunFreak
12-13-2009, 00:42
More importantly, train with your weapon, shot placement means so much more than the difference between HST's or Gold Dots.

Quoted for Truth... couldn't agree more.

IGF

happyguy
12-13-2009, 06:02
I recently purchased a G26. I am new to 9mm ammunition, and I have a few questions pertaining to selecting the best ammo for SD:

1. would like to know what is the most effective round that will ensure proper expansion for SD?

2. Which brand is most recommended?

3. Which grain count should I get?

4. Should I get the +P?

5. What does bonded mean?

I can't say it's the best but based on penetration, expansion, toughness, and cost, I chose Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5). It doesn't get the flashy marketing that HST does but it is well designed ammo.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

moncoacp
12-13-2009, 08:51
Overwhelming choice where? For every dept carrying a 124gr +P round, you can find another issuing a 115gr +P or 147gr round.

None of these are really an "overwhelming choice" or Caliber corner wouldn't really be what it is.. :) I don't see anything wrong w/ using 115gr FMJ for practice. Since thats the standard WWB Value Pack weight, I'd say there's a lot of folks using that round to practice.

IGF

I meant the overwhelming choice in the thread at the time I read it. Did not mean to imply the overwhelming choice in the wide world. Sorry for not being more specific.

hotpig
12-13-2009, 12:23
If there was a "best" round it would be the only one available. The others would cease to exist.

I sale to a good mixed crowd of LE and armed citizens. Generally when LE say they want a round for a compact 9mm they buy 147gr, most often the RA9T. Others more often go with a lighter bullet. Some old school go with +P or +P+ ammo.

We are blessed with many top choices in ammo. Unfortunately there is no real short cut like asking what is the best ammo,gun,bullet weight etc. Some times you are going to have to dive in and try things for yourself.

beforeobamabans
12-13-2009, 12:41
I sale to a good mixed crowd of LE and armed citizens.
Are you selling Ranger-T to the public?

hotpig
12-13-2009, 13:01
Always have.

tbhracing
12-13-2009, 13:55
OP- I am not an Expert on ammo, but I like the Golden Saber 9mm, 124 grain, non p. I went with the non +p because I dont practice with it and I wanted to stay consistent.

I liked Golden Saber because Remington is a good name. I am also leaning towards anything by Federal. I just asked about the 124 grain in here and got some positive response so I guess I am going to stay with it.

Sounds like you got some good advice so far.

DEADEYEGUY
12-13-2009, 14:14
Any of the "Big Three" will do. That is the Winchester Ranger series, Gold Dots, and Federal HST. These seem to give the best performance in 9mm.
I personally would go for the 124gr +P-127gr+P+. I just think it is the best balance of power and performance. Any of thses loads in the 147gr. version are supposed to work well also. So if I didn't go with +p or +P+ vesions in a standard load I'd go 147gr. . Lotd of work has been done on the 147gr. loads and they appear to work well now.

Glockdude1
12-13-2009, 14:22
When you say around here, are you referring to your area PD's, or your friends, or "here" on GT. I'd hardly say there's a consensus on anything regarding this subject, in any caliber, here on GT... :)

IGF

:agree:

jesse2205
12-13-2009, 14:44
We need to make a poll on which grain is preferred.

mymini40
12-15-2009, 22:12
Id go for the high velocity frangibles.

IndyGunFreak
12-19-2009, 07:42
We need to make a poll on which grain is preferred.

Has probably been done about 40 gazillion times.. we don't need a poll.. people need to understand there is no right or wrong answer. The bozo holding the pistol makes more of a difference than what ammo they are shooting.

IGF

IndyGunFreak
12-19-2009, 07:43
Id go for the high velocity frangibles.

To little penetration IMO.

IGF

Todesengel
12-19-2009, 08:43
Ideally; Bonded Remington Golden Saber HP 124gr +P....but since I couldnt find them the last time I bought ammo I carry Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P's

AWESOMO 4000
12-19-2009, 10:22
Don't forget about some of the old school rounds....Federal's 9BPLE 115gr +P+ and CorBon 115-125gr +P offerings. Near-.357 SIG performance worked 20-30 years ago is still a solid choice.

ntech
12-19-2009, 13:34
Thanks for giving me some specific brands that you guys like. I am noticing that there are some brands that are more commonly recommended than others. This information will help me when I look at the numerous varieties of ammunition at the store and make a choice.

stengun
12-19-2009, 18:30
Howdy,

What is the best 9mm ammunition for SD?

I would preferr something in .40 caliber.:supergrin:

Paul

WhySoSeriousG19
12-20-2009, 00:45
What about 147gr+p DoubleTap ammo,is it any good?

IndyGunFreak
12-20-2009, 08:34
What about 147gr+p DoubleTap ammo,is it any good?

Double Tap is pretty well known for loading some hot ammo. I know their ammo is popular among the 10mm folks. As for their 9mm, I never shot any of it to give a truthful opinion. I seem to remember reading recently though, that Double Tap switched from using Gold Dot Bullets, to Montana Gold bullets. That would be a step back IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsGnDtgVHc0

YMMV, and probably will.. :)

IGF

Evela
12-20-2009, 08:45
Do your research, but you will find the Gold Dot 124 and 124 +P widely respected. What may be more important is what load you can shoot more accurately.

Me: GD 124.

Renceri
12-20-2009, 09:03
I would only buy federal hst 124gr or 147gr hst,speer gold dots 124gr +p,and winchester t series 124gr +p+ and 147gr for SD with my 9mm.

j-glock22
12-20-2009, 09:29
for your 26? a true bonded bullet seems to be the thing now, there are many choices, most folks will go for 124-127gr. Yes, your 26 will eat +P just fine. I won't continue to echo the recent posts already on the subject, but my personal choice for my 9mm Glocks are 124gr Speer Gold Dots standard or +P (I have some of both but can only find standard for now--100fps difference) and they shoot accurate and reliable for me. Spend a few bucks and try different ones for yourself and you decide what works best for you. Good luck!

G26Okie
12-20-2009, 09:30
G19 is currently loaded with federal classic hi-shok 115gr +p+, #9bple. Its about $23/50 on cheaper than dirt.

Here is a page showing some good reviews of 9mm sd loadings, I'm using #2.

http://frag.110mb.com/

Dandapani
12-20-2009, 09:51
The consensus around here for grain count is 124. My personal favorite ammo is the federal hst, but good luck finding any of that. If you ever see any at your local store, pick it up and give it a try. A great ammo that is pretty easily available and is SUPERB IMO would be Speer Gold Dot 124gr.

Sorry, but consensus will eventually converge on one of the premium 147 gr JHP. Pick one. They all seem to work pretty well. The Ranger T was the previous pick, but the HST seems to have quite a following. I've tested them all and use HST in my P239 and Winchester Personal Protection JHP in my S/W 940 snub, all 147 grain.

den888
12-20-2009, 12:28
Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, Winchester PDX1 (if you can find it)

481
12-20-2009, 13:08
I recently purchased a G26. I am new to 9mm ammunition, and I have a few questions pertaining to selecting the best ammo for SD:



You could also use the parameters set forth by Duncan MacPherson in his book, "Bullet Penetration" to make an ammunition selection.

Distilled to its simplest, MacPherson's recommendation is:

"Choose the heaviest practical bullet weight that you can (that means a 147 gr., 180 gr., and 230 gr. bullet for the 9mm, .40/10mm, and .45 ACP, respectively), regardless of caliber, that has a muzzle velocity of no less than 800 fps and no more than 1,000 fps."


.

beforeobamabans
12-20-2009, 13:13
Thanks for giving me some specific brands that you guys like. I am noticing that there are some brands that are more commonly recommended than others. This information will help me when I look at the numerous varieties of ammunition at the store and make a choice.
Perhaps more important than brand or even grain weight of the bullet is the powder loading. Don't just assume that a +p or especially a +p+ is "better". In this case, more may not be better for you. These hotter loads will produce noticeably more recoil which may upset your follow up shot(s). If this is the case, the marginal increase in terminal velocity is NOT a worthwhile tradeoff. For example, I bought some Gold Dot 200+p for my 45 and was shocked at the kick. I won't carry this ammo just because it is so different from the standard 230 grain that I practice with. So, start by buying one box of two or three contenders, then evaluated how they perform for YOU in your gun. Pay attention to accuracy and speed with which you can get a follow up shot back on target. Stick with standard loadings unless you are completely comfortable, quick and accurate with the hotties.

BTW, check out the pic in my avatar. That's a 230+p Ranger next to a Golden Saber 147 grain.

481
12-20-2009, 13:36
Perhaps more important than brand or even grain weight of the bullet is the powder loading. Don't just assume that a +p or especially a +p+ is "better". In this case, more may not be better for you. These hotter loads will produce noticeably more recoil which may upset your follow up shot(s). If this is the case, the marginal increase in terminal velocity is NOT a worthwhile tradeoff. For example, I bought some Gold Dot 200+p for my 45 and was shocked at the kick. I won't carry this ammo just because it is so different from the standard 230 grain that I practice with. So, start by buying one box of two or three contenders, then evaluated how they perform for YOU in your gun. Pay attention to accuracy and speed with which you can get a follow up shot back on target. Stick with standard loadings unless you are completely comfortable, quick and accurate with the hotties.

BTW, check out the pic in my avatar. That's a 230+p Ranger next to a Golden Saber 147 grain.

B/O/B,

Excellent post!

Your opinion mirrors that of MacPherson: Controllability must be balanced against ballistic performance. (interior, exterior and terminal)

If one cannot control the pistol/cartridge combination during (possible rapid) fire, the likelihood of hitting what one needs to hit to bring about the cessation of hostilities is remote.

beforeobamabans
12-20-2009, 16:26
B/O/B,

Excellent post!

Your opinion mirrors that of MacPherson: Controllability must be balanced against ballistic performance. (interior, exterior and terminal)

If one cannot control the pistol/cartridge combination during (possible rapid) fire, the likelihood of hitting what one needs to hit to bring about the cessation of hostilities is remote.
Thanks. This is just common sense. But, we are human and sometimes let our egos carry us away.....

sigcalcatrant
12-20-2009, 18:04
I can usually find Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+ at gun shows. They seem a little hotter than standard, but in a medium size handgun, they're not that bad. In an emergency situation, you won't even notice.

betyourlife
12-20-2009, 18:07
123gr +P Gold Dot's.

stengun
12-21-2009, 02:12
Howdy sigcalcatrant,



I can usually find Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+ at gun shows.

.

I did a little test today using the Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+ fired out of my G23 w/ a LW 40-9mm conversion barrel that is 4.60" long.

It was fired from a distance of 30' into my test media. The round expanded to .70" at the largest point and .59" at the smallest. It penetrated roughly 13" in my test media (which is 1 gallon drinking water jugs from WalMart and filled with shredded newspaper and water and the top taped on).

For a 9mm this is a pretty good load. Recoil was noticeable more than a std 115gr load, but not as bad as some of the .40cal loads.

I'm not a 9mm fan but if for some reason I was forced to use a 9mm and had my choice of ammo, this would be it.

Paul

zx2loon
12-21-2009, 03:19
Hornady Critical Defense 115gr.........

MagTec 92gr SCHP......

ExtremeShok Air Freedom round

Ranger 124gr

Hornady Tap 147gr

Remmington 124gr BJHP Golden Sabers

MagSafe 50gr (for mini Glock)

Winchester SXT 147gr

All of these are good enough to carry...just choose your poison pending the outcome of your shoot.

Now personally, in my G26 I carry 5rds of 92gr MagTec SCHP followed by 5 ExtremeShoc Air Freedom rounds. In my spare mags, I have one l0G19 mag oaded with 124gr Ranger's and the other loaded with 147gr Winchester SXT. If you plan on carrying a spare mag or two, you can change your ammo to suite the needs of the situation.

RMTactical
12-21-2009, 03:56
MagTec 92gr SCHP......

ExtremeShok Air Freedom round

MagSafe 50gr (for mini Glock)


I wouldn't carry any of these.

zx2loon
12-21-2009, 04:24
I wouldn't carry any of these.

You could have backed up your statment with reasons or facts stating why you "wouldn't" carry it instead of making a silly statement like that.... :upeyes:

Come on man, I just cause someone wouldn't throw a rock at an old lady doesn't mean I won't throw one at you. That's how much your statment made sense......:supergrin:

I don't doubt they'll do their intended job as fragmentation ammo. I'm around children ALOT so my choice in ammo is factored in. Over penetration is not what is needed as a child is very high on my list of precious things to try to keep alive no matter what.....one of the reasons I carry 2 spare mags with different ammo intended for extra penetration.

All the ammo I listed above did well enough for me to confidently carry when I did my own phonebook, sheetrock wall and gallon jugs o' water tests. All proformed close to manufactures statements enough for me to choose those three as my main carry ammo and the others as spare ammo.

fredj338
12-21-2009, 10:11
You could have backed up your statment with reasons or facts stating why you "wouldn't" carry it instead of making a silly statement like that.... :upeyes:

Come on man, I just cause someone wouldn't throw a rock at an old lady doesn't mean I won't throw one at you. That's how much your statment made sense......:supergrin:

I don't doubt they'll do their intended job as fragmentation ammo. I'm around children ALOT so my choice in ammo is factored in. Over penetration is not what is needed as a child is very high on my list of precious things to try to keep alive no matter what.....one of the reasons I carry 2 spare mags with different ammo intended for extra penetration.

All the ammo I listed above did well enough for me to confidently carry when I did my own phonebook, sheetrock wall and gallon jugs o' water tests. All proformed close to manufactures statements enough for me to choose those three as my main carry ammo and the others as spare ammo.
If you have tested any of the "prefragmented" rounds, you'll note penetration i svery shallow. Shallow enought to NOT penetrate into vitals if hitting even a smallish attackers forearm or a strike throught the shoulder. I used to worry about overpenetration for the same reason you do, kids in the house, but once you realize that your missing, or just as bad, the BG continuing to fight because your rounds do not reach vitals, I moved to good JHP designed to reach that magic 12" min penetration. None of the prefrag rounds will do that. They are spectacular on impact, but shallow surface wounds on heavy muscled targets will be the result. Not for me.
I recently picked up a box of BH 124gr+P. It is the "old fashioned" XTP, but they expand well thru 2 layers of denim in wetpack @ an honest 1220fps from my G26.

RMTactical
12-21-2009, 12:46
You could have backed up your statment with reasons or facts stating why you "wouldn't" carry it instead of making a silly statement like that.... :upeyes:

Come on man, I just cause someone wouldn't throw a rock at an old lady doesn't mean I won't throw one at you. That's how much your statment made sense......:supergrin:

I don't doubt they'll do their intended job as fragmentation ammo. I'm around children ALOT so my choice in ammo is factored in. Over penetration is not what is needed as a child is very high on my list of precious things to try to keep alive no matter what.....one of the reasons I carry 2 spare mags with different ammo intended for extra penetration.

All the ammo I listed above did well enough for me to confidently carry when I did my own phonebook, sheetrock wall and gallon jugs o' water tests. All proformed close to manufactures statements enough for me to choose those three as my main carry ammo and the others as spare ammo.

Like Fred stated, penetration with those rounds is not good. It's gimmick ammo, and it may get you killed.

The FBI and other professionals suggest 12" of minimum penetration (18" is preferable) in ballistic gelatin for defensive ammo. Those rounds won't reliably hit vital organs, which is the best way to stop a determined attacker.

I have kids too and I am concerned for their welfare too. That is why I use ammo in my guns that will deal best with the threat and put it down.

98_1LE
12-21-2009, 19:46
I carry standard pressure HST in my PF9, and Winchester 127 gr +p+ in the XDm.

"Cold Dead Hands" !
12-21-2009, 20:59
You could also use the parameters set forth by Duncan MacPherson in his book, "Bullet Penetration" to make an ammunition selection.

Distilled to its simplest, MacPherson's recommendation is:

"Choose the heaviest practical bullet weight that you can (that means a 147 gr., 180 gr., and 230 gr. bullet for the 9mm, .40/10mm, and .45 ACP, respectively), regardless of caliber, that has a muzzle velocity of no less than 800 fps and no more than 1,000 fps."


.
MacPherson should stick to making struts !
His Ballistics advice needs upgrading.
For one, any 9mm, .357, .40, or 10mm bullet moving less than 1,000 FPS, is a low performance bullet, for stopping bad guys.

481
12-21-2009, 21:20
MacPherson should stick to making struts !
His Ballistics advice needs upgrading.
For one, any 9mm, .357, .40, or 10mm bullet moving less than 1,000 FPS, is a low performance bullet, for stopping bad guys.

Cold and Dead,

Hmmm...I put more stock in the work of an actual MIT educated "Rocket Scientist" (MacPherson's credentials) than the "rantings" of an ineducable, confused nobody who sprinkles his sentences with unneeded punctuation, improper capitalization and incorrect verb conjugation anyday.

You have no standing. :shame:

"Cold Dead Hands" !
12-21-2009, 21:25
Best 9mm !
Well, technically this should be the best...
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=120&osCsid=t3l9sc81ac2jhupl3vcog1r4k7
This 124gr.+P+ bonded Double Tap Ammo, is the bonded Speer Gold Dot Bullet pumped up to highest velocity.
(It's not the lousy Montana Gold bullet)
Get their bonded bullets, they are all suppose to be Speer Gold Dot bonded bullets, last I seen.
Double Tap just loads them to a higher velocity.
It hits with the speed & ft/lbs of energy of some .357's.

aujrb
12-21-2009, 22:13
I had a conversation with the deputy in charge of the training facility of the local sheriff's department. I asked him what the department issues, and he replied Gold Dot 124gr +P. All deputies carry 9mm (except for SWAT, they carry .45's with 230 HST),

The department's previous ammo was Hydra-Shok with dismal results. So, he contacted the FBI and found out they were using the Gold Dot. They switched to Gold Dot and have had several shootings since with very good results.

I might also add that the NYPD has used Gold Dot 124 +P for years.

hotpig
12-23-2009, 01:23
he contacted the FBI and found out they were using the Gold Dot. Ranger Bonded is their load for the for almost two years.

IndyGunFreak
12-23-2009, 01:38
Cold and Dead,

Hmmm...I put more stock in the work of an actual MIT educated "Rocket Scientist" (MacPherson's credentials) than the "rantings" of an ineducable, confused nobody who sprinkles his sentences with unneeded punctuation, improper capitalization and incorrect verb conjugation anyday.

You have no standing. :shame:

When you can't prove your point, attack their spelling and grammar! That's the way to do it!

IGF

aujrb
12-23-2009, 05:05
Ranger Bonded is their load for the for almost two years.

I thought the FBI used Winchester...But, that's what the man said.

481
12-23-2009, 09:05
When you can't prove your point, attack their spelling and grammar! That's the way to do it!

IGF

FAIL


Apparently, you missed my point (I value the research of an MIT educated "Rocket Scientist" over the "rantings" of some ineducable nobody), which was actually my expressed preference as stated in my post above.

Please work on improving your reading comprehension. I am growing tired of having to correct you.

BigHutch
12-24-2009, 09:39
HST, Gold Dot, or Double Tap for me.

Dogguy
12-27-2009, 09:32
Goverment agencies use whatever meets their specs at the lowest bid price.

There is no "best" because all objective tests have variations in methods and criteria.

Choice of ammunition should be based on more than internet forum members opinions. There are multitudes of test results on the web and in print that are readily available if you look for them.

The best advise I ever read on choosing self defense ammo of a particular caliber was in one of the Marshall-Sanow books. That was to look at the tests and pick one of the rounds in the top 1/3 of the results since the difference between them would be marginal.

All that said, I like 124 gr +P HST and Gold Dot. Just one man's opinion.

happyguy
12-27-2009, 09:41
MacPherson should stick to making struts !
His Ballistics advice needs upgrading.
For one, any 9mm, .357, .40, or 10mm bullet moving less than 1,000 FPS, is a low performance bullet, for stopping bad guys.

There are many rounds that travel less than 1,000 FPS that have an enviable record where it counts, i.e., stopping aggressors. The 147 grain HST and Ranger loads immediately come to mind.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

DocKWL
12-27-2009, 11:28
MacPherson should stick to making struts !
His Ballistics advice needs upgrading.
For one, any 9mm, .357, .40, or 10mm bullet moving less than 1,000 FPS, is a low performance bullet, for stopping bad guys.

"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

-Mark Twain

IndyGunFreak
12-27-2009, 11:43
Please work on improving your reading comprehension. I am growing tired of having to correct you.

LOL... IF I was actually being corrected by you, I'd just stop posting, because nothing I posted would be even remotely worthwhile. I'd love to see where you've corrected me on anything. If I recall correctly, the only misunderstanding we had, was the fact YOU couldn't comprehend what I posted.

Am I wrong sometimes, of course. However, any knucklehead can read the post I referenced and see what you were doing.. ."You're an idiot because you can't spell, and that makes MacPhereson a GENIUS"... So no.. I didn't miss a thing.

IGF

jesse2205
12-28-2009, 11:53
Ok guys I doubt the OP wanted a grammar war. OP, get a well respected company (Speer, federal, Remington) in either 124gr or 147gr and you will be fine. They produce the best SD ammo out there. As you can see there is not a single brand and gr that is "king." if you want the best, get any SD round from the 3 companies I posted above. Hopefully I won't have to put my flame suit on for that.

481
12-28-2009, 12:40
.... I'd just stop posting ...

IGF

I love the idea. Run with it, Chief.

Renceri
12-31-2009, 11:28
I love the idea. Run with it, Chief.
whatever:rofl:

481
12-31-2009, 15:16
whatever:rofl:

How utterly, simply trajic.

Still "sore" :miff: after all the grief and ridicule you took from everyone in your prior thread after thinking you might have to have a gunfight with someone's tricep, huh?

IndyGunFreak
12-31-2009, 15:32
How utterly, simply trajic

and to think you were coming down on him just a few posts ago for his spelling...

:rofl:

481
12-31-2009, 15:39
and to think you were coming down on him just a few posts ago for his spelling...

:rofl:

How clever.

It's always entertaining when 14 year olds play on the computer. Do your folks know what you are doing right now?

Renceri
12-31-2009, 17:31
How clever.

It's always entertaining when 14 year olds play on the computer. Do your folks know what you are doing right now?

Lol so funny pmpsl!:rofl:

coal
12-31-2009, 18:21
Getting this post back on topic... "Best" is debatable. Some are speed-freaks, others prefer mass. I opt for the greater mass of 147gr, and prefer bonded. Slight edge to 124gr +p in penetration/expansion with less recoil, and it's subsonic. It's a win/win/win/win IMO.

Load Data (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=868400) (1 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14295895&postcount=24)/2 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14295898&postcount=25))
Summary, Sorted by Penetration, at least 4 tests
.45acp 230 13.37 0.80
.40sw 180 13.25 0.69
9mm 147 12.72 0.66
9mm 124 12.49 0.64

Graves
12-31-2009, 19:00
Overwhelming choice where? For every dept carrying a 124gr +P round, you can find another issuing a 115gr +P or 147gr round.

Do you have any info to back that up, or is this more general consensus?:supergrin:

IndyGunFreak
12-31-2009, 23:11
Do you have any info to back that up, or is this more general consensus?:supergrin:

;).. some folks wouldn't believe that if you hit them over the head with it. It's interesting to hear what all these departments issue, and there is far from any sort of "consensus" on anything.... If there was, Caliber Corner would be renamed "Cooking Corner" and I'd tell you guys about how I can't cook a frozen pizza. :)

IGF

IndyGunFreak
12-31-2009, 23:14
Getting this post back on topic... "Best" is debatable. Some are speed-freaks, others prefer mass. I opt for the greater mass of 147gr, and prefer bonded. Slight edge to 124gr +p in penetration/expansion with less recoil, and it's subsonic. It's a win/win/win/win IMO.

Load Data (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=868400) (1 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14295895&postcount=24)/2 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14295898&postcount=25))
Summary, Sorted by Penetration, at least 4 tests
.45acp 230 13.37 0.80
.40sw 180 13.25 0.69
9mm 147 12.72 0.66
9mm 124 12.49 0.64

Wait, you mean the "Mighty .45"only penetrates about .75in more than the 9mm? The Difference between the 40 and the 9mm, is about .5in? I refuse to believe this.. I will plug my ears, close my eyes and "LA LA LA" because there's no way there's that little difference between standard self defense calibers. We all know the 9mm usually doesn't break the skin... :)

IGF

glocksterr
01-01-2010, 06:39
When you say around here, are you referring to your area PD's, or your friends, or "here" on GT. I'd hardly say there's a consensus on anything regarding this subject, in any caliber, here on GT... :)

IGF

Overwhelming choice where? For every dept carrying a 124gr +P round, you can find another issuing a 115gr +P or 147gr round.

None of these are really an "overwhelming choice" or Caliber corner wouldn't really be what it is.. :) I don't see anything wrong w/ using 115gr FMJ for practice. Since thats the standard WWB Value Pack weight, I'd say there's a lot of folks using that round to practice.

IGF

We need to make a poll on which grain is preferred.

every poll i have ever seen has the 124gr. outpacing the 147gr. by 2:1.

disclaimer:if my math is off by a few percentage points will all the internet experts and cops please not tell me how WRONG i am.





Sorry, but consensus will eventually converge on one of the premium 147 gr.


the consensus of who, the 147gr. guys?


:rofl:

glocksterr
01-01-2010, 06:52
Wait, you mean the "Mighty .45"only penetrates about .75in more than the 9mm? The Difference between the 40 and the 9mm, is about .5in? I refuse to believe this.. I will plug my ears, close my eyes and "LA LA LA" because there's no way there's that little difference between standard self defense calibers. We all know the 9mm usually doesn't break the skin... :)

IGF


you may be over looking some facts. in this case the .45ACP is producing 70% more wound volume. :supergrin:


let us not discount muzzle energy and transfer...


the picture begins to get clearer...

thegriz18
01-01-2010, 10:47
I think 9mm gets the job done but I still think it sucks. I think all service caliber handguns suck, but it sucks more. I pick .40.
Why? Because even though all service handgun calibers suck I don't like to have the lowest common denominator. Will a 9mm work? Hell yes. The .40 will also work and it delivers a touch more BPW. Yea, I know that BPW crap. Well, I kinda agree with it. Rifles shoot smaller lighter bullets than handguns but produce devastating damage compared to handguns. Why is that? Because their velocity is 2 - 3 times that of a handgun. Well, last time I checked ballistics doesn't magically change from rifles to handguns so the same should hold true. A faster round will produce more damage than a slower round. Oh yea crush volume, etc... BS. Get 12 inches and destroy as much stuff as possible. .45 ACP vs .30-06? Duh, we all know what we'd pick. Because of that, I like to shoot fast .40 caliber bullets. I've seen what these bullets will do in my own testing and I'm satisfied. It beat out some other rounds that have been around a little longer.
Even after that they all still suck and I'd prefer a rifle, preferably a .30.
Have a good one :wavey:

IndyGunFreak
01-01-2010, 10:50
let us not discount muzzle energy and transfer...


the picture begins to get clearer...

LOL, muzzle energy. The most USELESS number ever.

I do agree w/ the above poster... ALL handgun calibers suck... it doesn't matter if its the 9mm, 40, .45,etc.

IGF

481
01-01-2010, 12:02
LOL, muzzle energy. The most USELESS number ever.

IGF


Heh, something that we both agree on. :shocked:

They must be throwing snowballs in Hell now.

:)

J_Rico
01-01-2010, 13:01
To the OP,
Well, as you have probably noticed, this is a contested topic. A look through the Caliber Corner threads will show you many of these questions and each one dissolves into name calling.


There have been (IMO) good reponses to your post. The question should not be what is the best round, but what is the best round for you.

To my way of thinking (and I am just another one of those internet strangers with spelling issues) what matters most is:

1 - Reliability. If it does not go bang when you need it, then the magic bullet
is no good.

2 - How the cartridge works for you. How comfortable are you with the recoil, muzzle blast, etc? It needs to be something with which you are comfortable practicing.

3 - How available is the cartridge? This is sad, but it needs to be something you can find when it is time to replenish.

4 - It needs to shoot well out of your gun.

5 - You need to have faith in it.

6 - Practice, practice, practice.

This is heresy here, but I think cartidge choice and bullet design matter very little compared to practice, comfort with your firearm/cartridge combo and mindset.

Once again this is all just my opinion. The best of luck to you.

DocKWL
01-01-2010, 13:44
I think 9mm gets the job done but I still think it sucks. I think all service caliber handguns suck, but it sucks more. I pick .40.
Why? Because even though all service handgun calibers suck I don't like to have the lowest common denominator. Will a 9mm work? Hell yes. The .40 will also work and it delivers a touch more BPW. Yea, I know that BPW crap. Well, I kinda agree with it. Rifles shoot smaller lighter bullets than handguns but produce devastating damage compared to handguns. Why is that? Because their velocity is 2 - 3 times that of a handgun. Well, last time I checked ballistics doesn't magically change from rifles to handguns so the same should hold true. A faster round will produce more damage than a slower round. Oh yea crush volume, etc... BS. Get 12 inches and destroy as much stuff as possible. .45 ACP vs .30-06? Duh, we all know what we'd pick. Because of that, I like to shoot fast .40 caliber bullets. I've seen what these bullets will do in my own testing and I'm satisfied. It beat out some other rounds that have been around a little longer.
Even after that they all still suck and I'd prefer a rifle, preferably a .30.
Have a good one :wavey:

Rifles shoot smaller lighter bullets than handguns but produce devastating damage compared to handguns. Why is that? Because their velocity is 2 - 3 times that of a handgun.

Velocity is not the only reason for the difference in terminal effects when comparing projectiles fired from rifles and projectiles fired from handguns.

Well, last time I checked ballistics doesn't magically change from rifles to handguns so the same should hold true.

You are correct in saying that there is no magic involved but the same does not hold true.

A faster round will produce more damage than a slower round.

A great many learned individuals in the ballistic community will strongly disagree with this statement.

IndyGunFreak
01-01-2010, 14:38
To the OP,
Well, as you have probably noticed, this is a contested topic. A look through the Caliber Corner threads will show you many of these questions and each one dissolves into name calling.


There have been (IMO) good reponses to your post. The question should not be what is the best round, but what is the best round for you.

To my way of thinking (and I am just another one of those internet strangers with spelling issues) what matters most is:

1 - Reliability. If it does not go bang when you need it, then the magic bullet
is no good.

2 - How the cartridge works for you. How comfortable are you with the recoil, muzzle blast, etc? It needs to be something with which you are comfortable practicing.

3 - How available is the cartridge? This is sad, but it needs to be something you can find when it is time to replenish.

4 - It needs to shoot well out of your gun.

5 - You need to have faith in it.

6 - Practice, practice, practice.

This is heresy here, but I think cartidge choice and bullet design matter very little compared to practice, comfort with your firearm/cartridge combo and mindset.

Once again this is all just my opinion. The best of luck to you.

Not Heresy at all, I 100% agree. I've been telling people this for a while. How the ammo functions(accuracy/reliability) and how available it is, are the 3 most important things to consider when picking a SD round. The minor differences between the Brand 1 and Brand 2, are just nothing to get in a tizzy over.

IGF

Todesengel
01-01-2010, 15:57
truth is it's all about shot placement.

thegriz18
01-01-2010, 16:43
Velocity is not the only reason for the difference in terminal effects when comparing projectiles fired from rifles and projectiles fired from handguns.
What else comes into play then? I mean what else is there? Bullet construction? Ok, use the same type of expanding bullet and the rifle wins every time. Lower the velocity of rifle rounds and you lose a lot of power. So I ask, what else is there than velocity. Sure there are a few things, but I think velocity is a large part.[/I]


You are correct in saying that there is no magic involved but the same does not hold true.
Again, what changes? Ballistics is ballistics. Especially terminal ballistics. There aren't different rules for handguns and different rules for rifles. They both operate on the same basic principle. If there is then it's simply junk science.



A great many learned individuals in the ballistic community will strongly disagree with this statement.

Please, do explain. My responses are in red. Please provide some type of evidence that handguns and rifles operate from different rules of physics.

AWESOMO 4000
01-02-2010, 14:59
This is what I don't understand:

A 147gr 9mm delivers basically .38 Special +P ballistics.

A 124-127gr +P(+) 9mm in a service-length barrel delivers near 125gr .357 Magnum (.357 SIG) out of a 3"-4" barrel ballistics.

What would you rather stake your survival on...a .38 Special or a .357 Magnum?

DocKWL
01-02-2010, 15:34
This is what I don't understand:

A 147gr 9mm delivers basically .38 Special +P ballistics.

A 124-127gr +P(+) 9mm in a service-length barrel delivers near 125gr .357 Magnum (.357 SIG) out of a 3"-4" barrel ballistics.

What would you rather stake your survival on...a .38 Special or a .357 Magnum?

A 147gr 9mm delivers basically .38 Special +P ballistics.

A 124-127gr +P(+) 9mm in a service-length barrel delivers near 125gr .357 Magnum (.357 SIG) out of a 3"-4" barrel ballistics.

In what way?

What would you rather stake your survival on...a .38 Special or a .357 Magnum?

Whichever one was available when I needed it.

A miss from either is no good. A non-vital hit from either is no good. A vital hit from either is just as effective.

unit1069
01-02-2010, 15:37
truth is it's all about shot placement.

True, but accuracy comes into play only after the primary requisites of absolute gun/ammo reliability and cartridge characteristics are already achieved.

jesse2205
01-02-2010, 16:03
every poll i have ever seen has the 124gr. outpacing the 147gr. by 2:1.

disclaimer:if my math is off by a few percentage points will all the internet experts and cops please not tell me how WRONG i am.










the consensus of who, the 147gr. guys?


:rofl:

I agree with you as well. I may get flamed but I still think that there are more GTers who prefer the 124gr over the 147gr.

jhc37013
01-03-2010, 06:22
How about the Corbon 9mm +P 115gr DPX anyone heard anything about that I have been away awhile but it sounds promising. I picked up a few boxes but yet to try it.

glock2740
01-05-2010, 23:18
I use 124+P Gold Dots in my G26 and all my other 9mm's too.

renotse
01-07-2010, 14:52
Sorry, that was really just my opinion by reading most threads. I personally use 147. Many say that 147 is too slow and doesn't expand like it should.

Here is a 147gr HST tha is fast enough

Response from Federal Ask the Expert 1/7/10,

Greetings,

The XM9HA is a product overrun from a government contract it is loaded
with our 147gr HST bullet with velocity at 1180FPS and 479 ft lbs of
energy.

cowboy1964
02-07-2010, 00:53
9mm 147 12.72 0.66
9mm 124 12.49 0.64

so the difference between 147 and 124 is .23" of penetration and .02" of expansion?? That is statistically irrelevent.