Spike question- Ever having a decent rack? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Lethal Farce
12-17-2009, 06:40
What is the current thought on spikes. What is the likelyhood of them having a decent rack? Last night, I passed on a 100 lb or so yearling with 1-2" of short antler growth. I would think, if he is gentically predisposed to never being a decent racked buck, it would make sense to cull and fill the freezer. He was hanging out with a couple of 10" four pointers and a small six pointer.
LF

Jonesee
12-17-2009, 06:57
If he was a yearling I would take a pass and give him a chance. If he is a 2-3 yr old, cull him from the herd. It isn't unusual to see a spike yearling. Although he will never be B&C, he will develop a larger rack as he ages.

Surely there is a QDM guy on here that can give us the science. But I think they take a pass on all yearlings anyway.

vafish
12-17-2009, 11:43
I've heard the old mantra that a spike will always be a spike.

But I found this article:

http://www.petersenshunting.com/node/2366

...
"We divided all of the yearling bucks we captured into two categories," Dr. Kroll continues. "Yearlings that had only spikes or 3-point antlers were in one category, and yearlings with four or more antler points on their first set were in the other. We did this because we reasoned that these two classes of yearling bucks are easy for hunters to identify. We got some very interesting results on the 21⁄2- and 31⁄2-year-old bucks that were recaptured, but the age of 41⁄2 is where the results were the most dramatic.

"Studies repeatedly have shown that whitetail bucks do not reach maturity until four years of age, and by the time the bucks in our study had reached 41⁄2, there was no significant difference in any of the antler measurements, no matter what the buck started out with his first year. The antlers were just as wide, just as heavy and had just as many points. Furthermore, there was no significant difference in gross B&C score," he says.

Many of the bucks that had been yearling spikes had grown 130-inch racks by age 41⁄2. Ironically, the average B&C score of all bucks killed across Texas each year is about 131 inches.

"It appears from our data that the spikes and 3-pointers are genetically equal at birth to multi-point yearlings for antler growth potential," Dr. Kroll concludes. "It just seems to take some deer a little longer to show their capability. The trick is, you have to let them grow up before it becomes obvious. Genetics certainly is an interesting aspect of whitetail management, and fun to debate around the campfire, but genetics is the least important of all the factors leading to the production of quality bucks."

bandmasterjf
12-17-2009, 13:15
My sister and brother-in-law caught a fawn buck a few years back that still had spots. He was definitely a late rut fawn judging by his size. With bottle feeding and Purina deer chow he ended up with about 3" spikes in his first winter. His second winter wasn't anything to write home about. He was a decent little fork horn on both sides with 12-14 inch hight. He was let loose after his second winter. His third year he was a decent 7pt. with about a a 18" spread. His 4th year he was about a 130-135 class typical 10pt. We knew it was him because, while he was pretty skittish, he would still eat out of my sisters hand. I don't think a wild deer would do that. We didn't see him after that.:crying:

Lethal Farce
12-17-2009, 13:49
Thanks, great replies. Helped confirm I did the right thing, letting the little guy walk. Although, he would have made up a fine bunch of hash and sausage and loins, and............
LF

DoubleDog
12-18-2009, 06:13
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-10/1326121/Spiker.jpg

Shot this spike a couple of weeks ago....Nice deer...

The spikes were about 8 1/2 inches...Where I hunt the racks just aren't that big. It's seems most deer taken were in the 6 to 8 point range -- not massive racks either...

I'm not a big rack hunter (though I wouldn't pass one up) -- I just wanted meat in the freezer...

DD~

Jonesee
12-18-2009, 12:42
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-10/1326121/Spiker.jpg

Shot this spike a couple of weeks ago....Nice deer...

The spikes were about 8 1/2 inches...Where I hunt the racks just aren't that big. It's seems most deer taken were in the 6 to 8 point range -- not massive racks either...

I'm not a big rack hunter (though I wouldn't pass one up) -- I just wanted meat in the freezer...

DD~



That is a 1 year old... Are you not able to take a doe for meat?

Lethal Farce
12-18-2009, 13:00
Vafish, Great article thanks. We have a bunch of six pointers that are several years old, and don't look like they will ever be more than six. It seems it would make more sence to start culling some of those. I looks like you mid Atlantic folks are getting some snow. Luckeeee.
LF

DoubleDog
12-18-2009, 18:37
That is a 1 year old... Are you not able to take a doe for meat?

No doe permit this year...

DD~

CanyonMan
12-18-2009, 18:39
Here on our W. Texas ranch, we try to carefully manage the herd. Sometimes leaving them alone with only a small amount of help from 'man,' works well, and some times not. Depends on how well you want your herds to look and how important it is to you.

I won't get into all that. You didn't ask for that.

But we will 'cull out' the deer we determine are around almost 4 years old, to 4 years PLUS with small or deformed head gear.

That is the simple answer. You have to be in the field and know your deer and a few other things to determine at distance , "age." For some folks this comes fairly easy, and for some ... well, forget it. ;)

It can be difficult for us all at times, but there are ways to make pretty accurate determinations of the age,while on the hoof. (long story).

Again, just because a buck is not a good spike or a forker as a yearling, OR just because he is ONLY a small spike (in height as a yearling), "this does not mean" he wont be great when he gets about 4 years plus. (mature). We have seen yearlings with some nice head gear, that did not change to much at maturity, (then were culled out), and some with normal to sub normal head gear as yearlings that branched out as very nice bucks with wonderful spreds at maturity.

Suppliment feeding can sure be an asset, and then this conversation changes a bit.

But "without suppliment feeders", and NO help from us except for what we have normally planted in the upper and lower canyons, such as wheat, and maze (milo), which we would do any way as a sale crop, and a feed crop, and leaving all else alone. We find that just because a yearling packs a small fork, or even taller spikes, this "does Not" mean he will not produce a terrific rack at maturity. If he has not, by what we judge to be in the late 3's to 4 years old, he he culled out. If we see yearlings with deformed looking headgear, they go in the freezer as well.

Some folks think that genetics plays "no part" in the deciding factor of a bucks antlers. We totally disagree, in the sence that it can and does play a part, "except in those crazy cases" where something went south with that buck along the growth process, in his metabolism, with DNA wires, (as we say), crossed up, or not enough protein in the diet, not enough, or the 'right' minerals, food etc. Drought plays a part as well. Not enough days with good sunlight at antler growth time which helps in the stimulation of antler growth. There are several factors going on in that buck that can make him or break him "Regardless" of genetics. Some of the factors I have mentioned above here.

In closing. Just because dad and grand dad were B&C, does not mean the 3rg gen will be. Conversely, it can mean he will be. We have seen it both ways.
Genetics are very important, but that's not all there is to it, as I outlined to you here above.

Bottom of the bottom line here. We do not shoot the yearlings just to have something to do, "unless" they have stunted growth or deformed or mis formed antlers. Let JR. go, and give him a few years and let him develope. ;)


HTH's



Good hunting.



CanyonMan

Jonesee
12-18-2009, 20:00
Thank you Canyon. That is exactly what I've been told over the years. As a rule I don't believe in shooting a dear under 3 years old. The exception is exactly what you have listed.

When hunting with kids though, we allow them, and encourage them to take anything. If they are proud of the kill I am proud for them...

I haven't hunted by myself, for myself in years now. I hunt with my sons, who don't need a babysitter anymore, they are young men now, but it is quality time into and out of the woods. I set up a stand within sight of them and will only pull the trigger to knock down something they may wound. So far, they have never missed, and I mean never, ever, not once... Or I take any kid whos parents ask me to. I'll provide the gun if they need one. The most fun you can have is hunting with a 10-12 year old...

CanyonMan
12-18-2009, 21:30
Thank you Canyon. That is exactly what I've been told over the years. As a rule I don't believe in shooting a dear under 3 years old. The exception is exactly what you have listed.

When hunting with kids though, we allow them, and encourage them to take anything. If they are proud of the kill I am proud for them...
I haven't hunted by myself, for myself in years now. I hunt with my sons, who don't need a babysitter anymore, they are young men now, but it is quality time into and out of the woods. I set up a stand within sight of them and will only pull the trigger to knock down something they may wound. So far, they have never missed, and I mean never, ever, not once... Or I take any kid whos parents ask me to. I'll provide the gun if they need one. The most fun you can have is hunting with a 10-12 year old...


Being a dad and a grand dad, I hear what you are saying, BUT do let those kids take what they can, for now, to build confidence, but I suggest at the same time teach them what we have talked about, "for their future", so they will learn conservation ethics dad.... ;)

I know ya hear me, and will do what is best for those kids.

God bless ya.
Good hunting, and God's wisdom be on ya to lead those youngins in the right way.

I am Sure you will ! ;)


Good hunting.
and have fun with those kids !




CanyonMan

noway
12-19-2009, 18:03
A spike is a spike is a spike down here/ Very hard to get a good scoring rack. So I shoot a spike no different than taking a doe ( when legal ) or 8 pointer. Antler growth is a reflection of alot of things.

For all of those placing ages on a spike ( 1 2 2 3 4 5 years ), how do you know the age? Do you have any true experience with aging deers?

Looking at size and saying it's a spike, is not even 80% correct. You have to look at teeth and tooth wear.

G36's Rule
12-19-2009, 19:13
I've heard the old mantra that a spike will always be a spike.

But I found this article:

http://www.petersenshunting.com/node/2366

Also remember this.

Dr. Kroll was the guy who got it made legal to kill spikes in Texas because his research showed that free range WT spike yearlings were inferior to branch antlered yearlings.

Free Range.

The later testing was done using supplements like protein.

I personally think Texas deer style management has done more harm to hunting than anything to come along in quite a bit.

G36's Rule
12-19-2009, 19:16
Thanks, great replies. Helped confirm I did the right thing, letting the little guy walk. Although, he would have made up a fine bunch of hash and sausage and loins, and............
LF

If that is what you wanted, food, and he was legal then you should have taken him.

I've boiled antlers for hours, and they still don't eat well.

Jonesee
12-19-2009, 20:09
A spike is a spike is a spike down here/ Very hard to get a good scoring rack. So I shoot a spike no different than taking a doe ( when legal ) or 8 pointer. Antler growth is a reflection of alot of things.

For all of those placing ages on a spike ( 1 2 2 3 4 5 years ), how do you know the age? Do you have any true experience with aging deers?

Looking at size and saying it's a spike, is not even 80% correct. You have to look at teeth and tooth wear.


Age is relatively easy to get close to on the hoof. Look at the shape of the head and the slope of the nose. Look at the shape and size of the neck, in or out of rut, Look at the body as a whole. How lean and smooth or broad and chunky. Look at the coloring on the body. If you practice you can age a deer pretty quickly. A friend of mine who hunts over in Canyon's neck of the woods on a lease is fined if they kill a buck less than 4 years old. With $500 riding on it, you learn pretty quick.

Once the deer is down cut out the bottom jaw and look at the teeth for the definitive age...

CanyonMan
12-20-2009, 09:26
Also remember this.

Dr. Kroll was the guy who got it made legal to kill spikes in Texas because his research showed that free range WT spike yearlings were inferior to branch antlered yearlings.

Free Range.

The later testing was done using supplements like protein.

I personally think Texas deer style management has done more harm to hunting than anything to come along in quite a bit.




Not to get long winded here this morning, i got things to do. Your statement in blue, is partly true, "in that" when Texans strart involving the Goverment agencies in on their management programs they go to heck in a hand bag (some times). Private management or none at all, leaves us in better shape. What I mean by 'none at all,' is (allowing the deer to feed off the natural crops on one's place and let nature take it's course, coupled with the culling process I described in my above post). Big money has done alot to ruin large amounts of herds by pumping them up like arnold swarzenegger (sp).

We DO NOT hunt over feeders. This is NOT hunting IMO. But we do at times in certain places on the ranch put out feeders with suppliments rich in the minerals and nutrients that will help aid in the health of the deer and NOT something that is related to antler growth, in that it would steroid the antlers I mean. Allowing the herd here to feed off of the winter wheat, and the milo and oates, and giving them food suppliments for HEALTH. Is a much better way In our opinion, than pumping them up to be monsters.

That is the feeding end of things. I already described our philosophy on the live or die management in my above post, the hunting end of things. All this working together has given us one of the best crop of deer around. It's mostly common sense practice.

I retired from guiding a while back, so this is a family only hunting affair for all game we have out here, and sometimes have out a few good friends we may invite, all in natural habitat and no feeder hunting and no high fences. Just get in the canyons and really HUNT. No ATV's just you and the deer...

Yes I have seen herds ruined way to much by what the local state government calls management... We are a do it ourself ranch. There are only one or two that we have taken advice from, and it has been sound wisdom for us. I think we all have a great deal to learn in all this, but again, common sense, and some years of experience is the best approach......


Good hunting to you all




CanyonMan

G36's Rule
12-20-2009, 16:23
CanyonMan,

You and I are on the same page. I absolutely believe in landowner management. But along with that must go education.

I think you will remember the days of shooting does only with tags issued by the state? And the landowner had to apply for those. Most Texas landowners at the time thought you could manage a deer herd like you did cattle. One bull could breed many cows.

Deer don't work that way. You must have a closer buck/doe ratio to have a healthy herd. I can remember ranches in the 70's where you could hunt for weeks and see hundreds of WT does and not see an antler the whole time.

CanyonMan
12-20-2009, 17:56
LOL, yeah deer aren't cattle in the management area I can promise you that is right ! ha. I was managing our ranch in the Oklahoma Panhandle ( at least co managemwent), this is cattle , horses, crops etc, in the 70's, and Okla. was not like Texas in those days. Thank God.

But as you said, this is partly why we have always believed in landowner management. We have never allowed the feds to regulate what we do and don't do with managing wildlife on our own place.

Yes, education in this area (of deer herd/and wild life management), is very important, and VERY needed. We find very little of it. Fact. Most of what we hear is absolutely BS, and has NO substance or merit to it what so ever. We try to educate people in this, (and other areas), as much as we can, but unfortunately that is not to often we get the chance.

There are some pretty smart old boys in some of the agencies, and I learned a very great deal from one of the biologist friends of mine way back in the 70's, and carried that through on to the ranch here in Texas. It is working well for us, (the very small bit I shared in above posts), so we just let 'er go that way. Even our Turkey flocks are in excellent condition as well..

Some do not follow our philosophy, and thats ok, but we sure have found that with the game feeding on good crops in rich fertile soil, and just a little help from us in the scattered feeders "only'' for added minerals and nutrients they might not get in 'some of the soil here,' and the culling process I described in the above post, man we are doing real well, and it more or less takes care of itself.

We had a problem some years back with the turkeys being full of worms. We brought one in for thanksgiving, and we we gutted him, out crawled a bunch of flat yellow worms.... :wow:


Needless to say, we lost our Thanksgiving appetite ! :ack:


In getting with a biologist friend of mine, we discovered that we were not rotating the feeders enough, and the turkeys were picking up parasites in the dirt under the feeders, that were causing their beards to easily fall off and ther feathers were dull as all get out, and they just looked sickly...

This of course can be passed along to the deer as well, so when we began regular rotation of the feeders, and made tham more portable, and began adding in a mix to help reduce this problem. it all went away. We have some huge toms that run 20/25 #'s and sport very long beards. (and taste great with no worms). ha.


Got no jumping off place here and can talk about this all day, in fact I do in one form or another, wether, cattle , horses, or wildlife.


We'll just let Uncle Sam do what he wants to, "on the other side of our cattle guards," and we'll do what we think is best on this side. ;)


Sitting here by the end table, I thought I'd take a pic right quick of one I made into a lamp. He was a non typical B&C, but who cares. I wanted him to be a lamp, so he's a lamp! ;)


Good hunting to ya Amigo !




CanyonMan

noway
12-21-2009, 08:49
We had a problem some years back with the turkeys being full of worms. We brought one in for thanksgiving, and we we gutted him, out crawled a bunch of flat yellow worms....



You seem to be plague with deem worms ;)

Age is relatively easy to get close to on the hoof. Look at the shape of the head and the slope of the nose. Look at the shape and size of the neck, in or out of rut, Look at the body as a whole. How lean and smooth or broad and chunky. Look at the coloring on the body. If you practice you can age a deer pretty quickly. A friend of mine who hunts over in Canyon's neck of the woods on a lease is fined if they kill a buck less than 4 years old. With $500 riding on it, you learn pretty quick.




On aging by hoof, I haven't yet to see any biologist age a deer within months by "just" size of on the hoof, apperance, etc.......

And to age a buck within 4year life span when a buck or deer depending on locale don't see more than 4-5years of live, that's a feet right in there.


We age by lower jaw bone and factor in other conditions.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d200/kenfelix/deer-jaw001.jpg

that's only sure way to age a deer within months.

CanyonMan
12-21-2009, 11:40
You seem to be plague with deem worms ;)




On aging by hoof, I haven't yet to see any biologist age a deer within months by "just" size of on the hoof, apperance, etc.......
And to age a buck within 4year life span when a buck or deer depending on locale don't see more than 4-5years of live, that's a feet right in there.


We age by lower jaw bone and factor in other conditions.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d200/kenfelix/deer-jaw001.jpg

that's only sure way to age a deer within months.



Yep, we had some worm problems in the turkeys for a spell, but all is rolling perfectly now..... Hate those worms. Whew !

In one of my post above I said this: (quote) "If he has not, by what we judge to be in the late 3's to 4 years old, he is culled out. (end quote)


noway, I am not saying we have it down to an art, that we can judge exactly that a deer is say, 3years and 7 months old. I understand the lower jaw factor, and been doing that for over 45 some odd years now. But, you can't check the lower jaw on a deer walking or running by you, or standing in the pasture. :supergrin:


When you live and work on a place and see deer everyday, it's almost like seeing your cattle everyday, you get to sorta know them. After a while, a very long while, like in a life time almost of doing what we've done, and do, from formally guiding, to now just being around it all the time. You truly can over many many years get to the place you can make very close judgements on the age of the deer, or even those deer/elk not on your place, that your hunting or guiding a client to.

It is simply something you just grow into doing over a long period of time, and many tens of thousands of deer/elk and other game involvments.

It's like having a 1000 head of cattle, yet you actually can tell this one is old red, and this one is jingle bob, and that one is old crooked leg, etc etc,

Is it hard at times with the deer ? Yes. I said it was in one of my post above, but it IS do-able, cause we do it ! ;)

Wish that I could run out every time and wrangle one down and look in his mouth, but I just ain't got that tuff yet. I did try to throw a loop over a buck while I was sittin in a big cottonwood tree once, and something told me this was not a great idea, seein as how I had nothing to take a dally with on the loose end of my rope, so I gave that idea up for the day ! :faint:


Hey get out there and get those Florida deer man, and bring back some stories. I always like hearing them from ya...


Good hunting Amigo !


Merry Christmas to all you old boys.





CanyonMan

noway
12-21-2009, 14:08
fwiw

At our WMA and on avg most deer taken are under 3years by a long shot. With the help of arrows and bullets, and then factor in cars and poachers. A deer has a hard time making it to 2years of age. Anything with horns on it would be even more pressed.

We don't use sillyness of age for "restrictions" on taking. Most areas have some type of point limits or length or combination of both. In a few areas starting maybe 3 years back, started going with point quanity and length as the factors for deer management of bucks.

Now that I think about it even more, I never heard or have hunted in a state that "place a age limit " on a buck/doe deer nor ever heard of a huntclub that does the same for what can be taken.

Jonesee
12-21-2009, 20:11
fwiw

At our WMA and on avg most deer taken are under 3years by a long shot. With the help of arrows and bullets, and then factor in cars and poachers. A deer has a hard time making it to 2years of age. Anything with horns on it would be even more pressed.

We don't use sillyness of age for "restrictions" on taking. Most areas have some type of point limits or length or combination of both. In a few areas starting maybe 3 years back, started going with point quanity and length as the factors for deer management of bucks.

Now that I think about it even more, I never heard or have hunted in a state that "place a age limit " on a buck/doe deer nor ever heard of a huntclub that does the same for what can be taken.

Then you haven't hunted leases in Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama or even the northern part of your own state. Up here in the far western panhandle a good portion of leases have restrictions. I can take you to 2 side by side leases up her in the panhandle, one with restrictions and the other without and there is a noticable difference in the game being taken.

Ever thought that maybe the management and restrictions are why we have more, older and larger deer? Just a thought...

You can call it "siilyness" if you choose, but we practice it on our family land in Oklahoma too. Kids are the only exception on the three primary tracts I hunt. One each in Florida, Alabama and Oklahoma.

CanyonMan
12-21-2009, 22:39
Then you haven't hunted leases in Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama or even the northern part of your own state. Up here in the far western panhandle a good portion of leases have restrictions. I can take you to 2 side by side leases up her in the panhandle, one with restrictions and the other without and there is a noticable difference in the game being taken.

Ever thought that maybe the management and restrictions are why we have more, older and larger deer? Just a thought...

You can call it "siilyness" if you choose, but we practice it on our family land in Oklahoma too. Kids are the only exception on the three primary tracts I hunt. One each in Florida, Alabama and Oklahoma.



;)




CanyonMan

vafish
12-22-2009, 05:47
I'm putting words in Noway's mouth so forgive me if I'm wrong.

I think what Noway is calling "Silliness" is the use of age for fines, not the management of a deer herd. I think age is very difficult for most people to determine on the hoof and having antler restrictions of number of points and size is much better/easier for most hunters.

I was a guest on a property last Friday that has antler restrictions. Bucks must be at least 6 points to be shootable, can shoot all the doe you want, but you catch hell if you shoot a button buck. Most of the guys hunting the property won't shoot a buck less than a very large 8 point. They have quite a few large deer taken every year. I had a large doe and a fawn come by me. I shot the doe, junior hung around for a while, but after cranking the scope up to 9X and taking a close look at the head I couldn't be certain it wasn't a button buck. Actually I was pretty sure there were some bumps on the head. So he got a pass.

I hunt another property that has a hunt club next to it. They run dogs and their standard is "If it's brown it's down". In the 20 years I've hunted that property I've seen 1 or maybe 2 large bucks taken. The rest were all small ones, mostly spikes, fork horns and occasionally a small 6 point.

So I know that only shooting larger bucks can result in seeing more large bucks.

noway
12-22-2009, 08:11
I'm putting words in Noway's mouth so forgive me if I'm wrong.

I think what Noway is calling "Silliness" is the use of age for fines, not the management of a deer herd. I think age is very difficult for most people to determine on the hoof and having antler restrictions of number of points and size is much better/easier for most hunters.

I was a guest on a property last Friday that has antler restrictions. Bucks must be at least 6 points to be shootable, can shoot all the doe you want, but you catch hell if you shoot a button buck. Most of the guys hunting the property won't shoot a buck less than a very large 8 point. They have quite a few large deer taken every year. I had a large doe and a fawn come by me. I shot the doe, junior hung around for a while, but after cranking the scope up to 9X and taking a close look at the head I couldn't be certain it wasn't a button buck. Actually I was pretty sure there were some bumps on the head. So he got a pass.

I hunt another property that has a hunt club next to it. They run dogs and their standard is "If it's brown it's down". In the 20 years I've hunted that property I've seen 1 or maybe 2 large bucks taken. The rest were all small ones, mostly spikes, fork horns and occasionally a small 6 point.

So I know that only shooting larger bucks can result in seeing more large bucks.


all 100% bingo


Canyonman on those cattle your mention; jingle, red, crook leg, and others could you with any accuracy or authority come to my parents homestead and age let's say my neighbor Angus or my 2nd cousin, Charolais And be with in let's say a month or year of accuracy? I remember some when they where 60-7-lbs ate birth.

I can barely do their age, and that only because I've "seen" them for years and they have ear tags with numbers ;)

See in the example you gave , you know your "cattle" or seen them around for years. So you have an ideal based on this closeness of your herd of cows and the same goes with deers running your neck of the wilderness.

Any tom, dick, harry or jane, jill, gina , can easily peer thru a binocular/monocular or naked eyes and say; " that deer over their has a fork and it's point r 1" long or the antler is at least 5" long, or that's a doe and that's a fawn ". I highly doubt or would expect them to say out of that 3 deer , these are 17months old and that one is 48months old.

The best most people who are weekend warriors, will come out and tell the difference of a fawn, juvenile , yearling or a adult full mature deer. They should also point out what's a buck and or deer and maybe the sexes.

And the states ( that I've hunted in ) agreed with me. ( still awaiting for someone to point out a state that spec out age as a restriction for taking of a deer ).


Then you haven't hunted leases in Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama or even the northern part of your own state. Up here in the far western panhandle a good portion of leases have restrictions. I can take you to 2 side by side leases up her in the panhandle, one with restrictions and the other without and there is a noticable difference in the game being taken.

So true on the 1st parts, but I have hunted the panhandle and those restriction are by imposed by who again ?

The hunt club or property owner.

None of the WMAs or Elgin have age limits and guess what they have big bucks with big racks roaming around.

And once again, what are they going after? Bigger racks! Who care about the age :whistling: Are you trying to hunt old deers or are you going for racks? ;)

And what kind of food does Northern Deer eats vrs one in the southern zone that scraping by on palmetto seeds ;) ?

See,
you have to compare apples to apples , to have any fair comparisons. You still won't find a "public gov wildlife management" specifying age anywhere in their management guidelines or philosophy for good deer management.

What a private owner does is his/her business. They could be as silly and say can't hunt deer on Tues but Wed Thrus is great , or no deer with patches of white on the forelock or must be 36" tall or a buck bib must be 4" total squareness of less. Does any of this have anything todo with proper deer management ? Nope !

btw; You would be shock to see the average deer age taken below FLA-hwy60 or 70 and they are not over 4years of age.

CanyonMan
12-22-2009, 08:12
I'm putting words in Noway's mouth so forgive me if I'm wrong.

I think what Noway is calling "Silliness" is the use of age for fines, not the management of a deer herd. I think age is very difficult for most people to determine on the hoof and having antler restrictions of number of points and size is much better/easier for most hunters.


Your correct IMO as well, shoot noway is a friend of mine and I know he knows a thing or two about having good deer herd and game management.

I will add it is all "silliness" whenever the Government gets involved. (usually anyway). I believe that is something that Jonesee and I both can probably tell ya about. ;)


AS Jonesee said though, there are places in Oklahoma, and Texas etc, where these type of restrictions apply. There are places where you best know what your shooting or your fine will be off the charts..... ha.

Vafish, as you said, and I mentioned in the post or two above. It can be very difficult for folks to determine the on the hoof age of a buck. I agree. But believe me, it is 'most certainly' Do-able.

It also is correct to say, that just placing the "restrictions" on the number of points, or the size of those points, really makes it much easier to determine if your within the "law" or not. BUT, it just ain't that way in some places, and you are going to have to know what your shooting.

The main thing we were talking about really, was the Private management of the herd on one's on place, to bring the herd to a healthy number, and heathy in weight, body and nice decent racks over time. Thus the discussion on the "culling out /other types of management," conversation.


Well, we could have been out hunting instead of writing.

I'm going to jump off right here, and get started with the family on the Christmas doins, and say Adios to GT and to all you old boys for a few days. I'll probably at least weigh in 5 #'s heavier after Christmas. "On the hoof" LOL !

Noway, Vafish, Jonesee, and the rest of you guys. Go out there and get your deer ! Good luck.


You boy's have a wonderful Christmas and time with your family....



CanyonMan

CanyonMan
12-22-2009, 08:35
all 100% bingo


Canyonman on those cattle your mention; jingle, red, crook leg, and others could you with any accuracy or authority come to my parents homestead and age let's say my neighbor Angus or my 2nd cousin, Charolais And be with in let's say a month or year of accuracy? I remember some when they where 60-7-lbs ate birth.
I can barely do their age, and that only because I've "seen" them for years and they have ear tags with numbers ;)

See in the example you gave , you know your "cattle" or seen them around for years. So you have an ideal based on this closeness of your herd of cows and the same goes with deers running your neck of the wilderness.

Any tom, dick, harry or jane, jill, gina , can easily peer thru a binocular/monocular or naked eyes and say; " that deer over their has a fork and it's point r 1" long or the antler is at least 5" long, or that's a doe and that's a fawn ". I highly doubt or would expect them to say out of that 3 deer , these are 17months old and that one is 48months old.

The best most people who are weekend warriors, will come out and tell the difference of a fawn, juvenile , yearling or a adult full mature deer. They should also point out what's a buck and or deer and maybe the sexes.

And the states ( that I've hunted in ) agreed with me. ( still awaiting for someone to point out a state that spec out age as a restriction for taking of a deer ).




So true on the 1st parts, but I have hunted the panhandle and those restriction are by imposed by who again ?

The hunt club or property owner.

None of the WMAs or Elgin have age limits and guess what they have big bucks with big racks roaming around.

And once again, what are they going after? Bigger racks! Who care about the age :whistling: Are you trying to hunt old deers or are you going for racks? ;)

And what kind of food does Northern Deer eats vrs one in the southern zone that scraping by on palmetto seeds ;) ?

See,
you have to compare apples to apples , to have any fair comparisons. You still won't find a "public gov wildlife management" specifying age anywhere in their management guidelines or philosophy for good deer management.

What a private owner does is his/her business. They could be as silly and say can't hunt deer on Tues but Wed Thrus is great , or no deer with patches of white on the forelock or must be 36" tall or a buck bib must be 4" total squareness of less. Does any of this have anything todo with proper deer management ? Nope !

btw; You would be shock to see the average deer age taken below FLA-hwy60 or 70 and they are not over 4years of age.



noway,

I never said I aged deer within a month or so in age. And the answer to your question about your dad's cattle. YES. I can pretty much tell you an age, not within the date time of birth and month... But in years. Horses as well.

Your getting a little off base with me there hoss. Go back and re- read my post, and give it some thought there amigo.

My God I grew up doing this, and every rancher's son I know can tell you pretty dang close that bucks "year age" as in 2/3/4/5/6 years. Hang around cattle, horses, and feed lots, and livestock auctions, and rodeos most all your life, and live where you see some times as many as 200 deer in one herd on your winter wheat, and guide for 25 years, and I promise you, a man learns a thing or two....


My friend, don't read something into what I really said. Look at what I really did say.


You say, "of the deer, who cares about age...... "? If your wanting to manage a herd you better care about age. I don't want a 3 year old running around on the place with a spike on one side and a 3 point on the other. He dies ! If not, he can pass on his freakish headgear, or say normal looking but small in his case headgear.... Why keep around an older fart that ain't got enough rack to hardly hang your hat on ! ;)

Yes it is hard to tell age on the hoof, and sometimes I am flat wrong. But again, it is do-able man.

I was writing the post to Vafish, obviously, while you were making your post. After I wrote him, and pushed the botton, there was this one of yours. This is my answer amigo.


Have a great Christmas Noway.



CanyonMan

vafish
12-22-2009, 11:25
....Well, we could have been out hunting instead of writing......



I gotta say if the restrictions on the property are that tight that I have to know the age of the deer before I pull the trigger, I better have you sitting right next to me telling me when it's OK to pull the trigger.

I'm sitting in my little cubicle hating life. Gotta pay the bills somehow.

I got 4 deer down already. The 2 bucks with the crossbow and 2 doe with the .30-06. I'm going to switch to the pistols for the rest of the season.

Now I need to get my boys back out in the woods so they can shoot some deer.

CM and everyone else have a Merry Christmas!

noway
12-22-2009, 13:23
I gotta say if the restrictions on the property are that tight that I have to know the age of the deer before I pull the trigger, I better have you sitting right next to me telling me when it's OK to pull the trigger.

I'm sitting in my little cubicle hating life. Gotta pay the bills somehow.

I got 4 deer down already. The 2 bucks with the crossbow and 2 doe with the .30-06. I'm going to switch to the pistols for the rest of the season.

Now I need to get my boys back out in the woods so they can shoot some deer.

CM and everyone else have a Merry Christmas!

LOL on that 1st part.

I just pulled out about half dozen of upper florida hunt clubs pamplets and yet to find any that states "age" of deer. Only mentioning of age was to the age of the "hunter" ;)


We all know that a buck deer is at it's biggest by the 5th year ( typically ) but age is not a requirement mention anywhere in places that I've listed or been at. Most phamplet states what I said before, the number of points on one or 2 sides, sizes of point or width of beam. They do this to ensure big rack bucks and to let the juniors make it to a "older age" where they could be a BC or PY scored buck.

On public grounds, I could care less and go at what meets the book. We have very limit pickings to begin with. If I had to go by what's been posted in this thread, I would never be able to take any Buck deer in SEFLA ;)

CanyonMan
12-22-2009, 14:58
I gotta say if the restrictions on the property are that tight that I have to know the age of the deer before I pull the trigger, I better have you sitting right next to me telling me when it's OK to pull the trigger.
I'm sitting in my little cubicle hating life. Gotta pay the bills somehow.

I got 4 deer down already. The 2 bucks with the crossbow and 2 doe with the .30-06. I'm going to switch to the pistols for the rest of the season.

Now I need to get my boys back out in the woods so they can shoot some deer.

CM and everyone else have a Merry Christmas!




LOL, I do not have this down to a perfect science guys... ha. Just know what I know.. ;)


Yes sir get those youngins back out there da and go hunti, and good luck to you vafish. Merry Christmas to you and your family as well.



CanyonMan

CanyonMan
12-22-2009, 15:30
LOL on that 1st part.

I just pulled out about half dozen of upper florida hunt clubs pamplets and yet to find any that states "age" of deer. Only mentioning of age was to the age of the "hunter" ;)


We all know that a buck deer is at it's biggest by the 5th year ( typically ) but age is not a requirement mention anywhere in places that I've listed or been at. Most phamplet states what I said before, the number of points on one or 2 sides, sizes of point or width of beam. They do this to ensure big rack bucks and to let the juniors make it to a "older age" where they could be a BC or PY scored buck.


On public grounds, I could care less and go at what meets the book. We have very limit pickings to begin with. If I had to go by what's been posted in this thread, I would never be able to take any Buck deer in SEFLA ;)





Hey ther noway, before I go here. I got one question for ya about what I highlighted in blue from your post above.

If I/we, cannot tell an age within even a year, how we gonna do what you said in blue above??

You said "let the juniors make it to a "older age" where they could be a BC or PY scored buck..."


How we gonna know if this buck you mention, before we shoot him, "is an older age,' as you said ?

This is part of my point, the rest of what I said, you kinda turned some of it into making me look like some freak at the state fair trying to 'guess folks weight and age..."

Point is going by what you just said "let the juniors make it to an older age.."

How will you judge it's a junior? How will you judge it's 'older age" ?

Seems according to your own statement here above, we got to do some judging... But not just according to rack size. That old dog won't hunt every time. ;)


We have seen plenty of 3 to 5 year old deer with screwed up small racks, and folks "looking at the racks" would think they were young because of a lack of growth in the antlers, and conversely, folks would look at the 2 year old "who happend to be blessed" with a really nice hat rack, and think he is an older deer.


One cannot go by this kind of logic "ALONE" my friend, when judging age on the hoof, that won't always work as I just described.


Tell you what. Since we've known each other a good long while on here, and on the telephone as well, and we have established a friendship, IMO anyway, why don't we just leave this subject where she stands. I cannot convience you it seems, really wasn't trying to frankly. And you seem to be having sport with me, or don't believe me, (which is fine), on the subject.

So, I'll bow out, and say God bless ya amigo, and some day when we can get together, I'll take you around out here and try to explain what I mean.....

Some of this is getting a tad out of context as to what "I" said at least, so ... Adios for me, I am hitting the road here after while, and going to enjoy Christmas with the rest of the family for a few days...


I wish you all the best buddy.
As I told you years ago. Feel free to write me, or call any time. ;)




CanyonMan