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Magnum 357
12-17-2009, 18:13
Watch this video:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712

and then ask me why I carry a REVOLVER S&W for self defense!!!!!

Dalton Wayne
12-17-2009, 18:20
His problem was he didn't have a round chambered.
If I worked a high risk job I would wear my vest, hell I wear it if I go through the bad side of town or out to town late at night, and I always wear it when I go to Orlando that's crime central. :cool:
Regards
DW

Dalton Wayne
12-17-2009, 18:23
Oh and if you think I'm being paranoid this happened just down the street from me, I think I heard the shots when it happened.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1159068

Regards
DW

Deaf Smith
12-17-2009, 21:37
Ever consider this guy used the Israeli method of carrying his gun chamber empty and the idiot found out sometimes you can short stroke it? Like when scared?

And where was his backup gun?

And as I suspected, it was in India. Agra is a region there.

Yep, I bet he carried it chamber empty.

And you know the arguments here we have had over chamber empty carry, right?

Deaf

Scouse
12-18-2009, 07:08
Ever consider this guy used the Israeli method of carrying his gun chamber empty and the idiot found out sometimes you can short stroke it? Like when scared?

And where was his backup gun?

And as I suspected, it was in India. Agra is a region there.

Yep, I bet he carried it chamber empty.

And you know the arguments here we have had over chamber empty carry, right?

Deaf


# 1/ Only calibre available by law... .32. Round nose lead cartridges!

#2/ The total lack of training, and no extra rounds. Lost cause.

My Diamond store experience in Orlando FL. Mossberg pump, 6 rounds Low Vel; slugs, Glock 19, 16 rounds of 127g WW Ranger. Plus a G17 magazine, just in case a (up to now not one ever) malfunction.

Man trap double door entry, metal detector built in, I let you in! Push button remote.

Nice A/C, vest was comfy!

cowboywannabe
12-18-2009, 07:49
that was an assasination not a robbery.

Gallowglass
12-20-2009, 09:41
I think the OP's point was that you don't have to remember to rack a slide on a revolver, just pull the trigger.

betyourlife
12-20-2009, 09:55
that was an assasination not a robbery.

Um, fail.:upeyes:

TattooedGlock
12-23-2009, 06:33
that was an assasination not a robbery.

Exactly. Nothing appeared to be taken and none of the other folks were shot at. Heck, they may have even been in on it!

And to the poster who has to wear a vest to go out and live his life, I have one word for you...MOVE! :faint:

PhoneCop
12-23-2009, 10:04
I think the OP's point was that you don't have to remember to rack a slide on a revolver, just pull the trigger.

I agree. With a Glock and and a loaded chamber the same applies.

Deaf Smith
12-23-2009, 11:23
I agree. With a Glock and and a loaded chamber the same applies.

And you don't have to worry about short stroking the slide or having to chamber a round while grappling with the BGs. Nor worry about if you will even have two hands to chamber the round!

Point-n-click is the solution unless there are some serious extenuating circumstances like a non-drop safe weapon.

Deaf

David Armstrong
12-23-2009, 12:21
Failure to do/perform a particular skill or technique correctly is pretty poor evidence that the skill or technique is not good. Using this argument if he had carried a 1911 chamber loaded and the safety on, but had failed to get the safety off, it would mean one should not carry a 1911 chamber loaded with the safety on.

BTW, there was already a pretty good discussion of this incident at http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1159132

NDC187
12-24-2009, 22:19
The only difference between a revolver and an auto is the method in which rounds are fed. It's a myth a revolver is more reliable than a quality auto.

I can say one thing. IF someone was in arms reach with a revolver in DA mode the cylinder would be grabbed and the gun would be taken.

Problem in video..no round in chamber as other poster stated.

Magnum 357
12-26-2009, 12:54
This is a REAL EXAMPLE why people should carry a REVOLVER for SELF DEFENSE...you don't have to worry about recking the slide or having a JAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NMGlocker
12-26-2009, 13:30
As Buggs Bunny would say... "the OP is a maroon."

40S&W_SigSauerP229
12-26-2009, 23:15
I think the OP's point was that you don't have to remember to rack a slide on a revolver, just pull the trigger.

You still have to load the revolver and for most loading a gun is racking the slide. F%^K revolvers, I prefer the automatic for mag capacity and fast reloads, what ever works for you. Retard tactical keeps the morgs full.

Deaf Smith
12-27-2009, 11:31
This is a REAL EXAMPLE why people should carry a REVOLVER for SELF DEFENSE...you don't have to worry about recking the slide or having a JAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No Magnum, it's a REAL EXAMPLE of why your weapons should be ready for immediate action without undue manipulation. And chamber empty on a drop safe handgun is an unneeded manipulation.

Some who carry modern drop-safe revolvers do so with the chamber under the hammer empty, and thus giving up 1/6th or more of their ammo supply for no real reason!

Sadly there are people who will think the safety of a weapon is tied to the state the weapon is kept in instead of the mental state of the user. And that is the real problem.

Deaf

Scouse
12-27-2009, 12:13
No Magnum, it's a REAL EXAMPLE of why your weapons should be ready for immediate action without undue manipulation. And chamber empty on a drop safe handgun is an unneeded manipulation.

Some who carry modern drop-safe revolvers do so with the chamber under the hammer empty, and thus giving up 1/6th or more of their ammo supply for no real reason!

Sadly there are people who will think the safety of a weapon is tied to the state the weapon is kept in instead of the mental state of the user. And that is the real problem.

Deaf


Well, I taught mostly Revolver carriers (Job related, both Public and Private) and an older (before peace work, more you send out, the more you make days) model of Mod 10 or Models 64 and 65.

I did this for over 21 years.

Only ever fired double action, most converted to double action only (all my training guns were) most of my client Company's as well, because of the many dry fire and live fire these revolvers had been through, the triggers were all smooth as glass, and all around 10lbs.

Young people (over 18 YOA) from draw, duty holster, double taps, from 5m' (just over 5 yards) around 3" hits center upper chest, time and time again, took around 2 hours, both dry fire, live fire, around 100 rounds.

But having said that, no miss fires, my reloads on a Star Machine. Sometimes, vary rarely, but did happen, new gun, or 10 year old one... Firing pin broke, or fell out.

ALL DONE, no BANGS TILL FIXED.


They all have Glock Pistols now, 9mm and .40 S&W.

David Armstrong
12-28-2009, 11:59
No Magnum, it's a REAL EXAMPLE of why your weapons should be ready for immediate action without undue manipulation.
Actually it is an example of how, even if your weapon is ready for immediate action without undue manipulation, as was the situation here, most of the time it won't matter. Racking the slide is not much of a problem, as we have seen for decades. But in this case it just doesn't matter, the guy could have had a revolver, a loaded shotgun, or whatever with him, without changing the outcome.

Goldendog Redux
12-28-2009, 12:09
Actually it is an example of how, even if your weapon is ready for immediate action without undue manipulation, as was the situation here, most of the time it won't matter. Racking the slide is not much of a problem, as we have seen for decades. But in this case it just doesn't matter, the guy could have had a revolver, a loaded shotgun, or whatever with him, without changing the outcome.

Absolutely.

In the last thread everyone seemed to thing they would have simply rocked some El Presidente getting instantly lethal CNS on the bad guys and walking away unscathed.

David Armstrong
12-28-2009, 12:28
Yes. The problem, IMO, is that some folks look at these various situations with the goal of trying to support their preconceived biases and/or personal agendas rather than looking at them with open minds and from multiple perspectives.

Magnum 357
12-28-2009, 13:38
... But in this case it just doesn't matter, the guy could have had a revolver, a loaded shotgun, or whatever with him, without changing the outcome.


How did you come to that conclusion????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2 Hawks
12-28-2009, 16:19
Watch this video:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712

and then ask me why I carry a REVOLVER S&W for self defense!!!!!

Ok, why do you carry a REVOLVER for s/d.
"Should Read, This Is Why I Train"..

David Armstrong
12-28-2009, 16:32
How did you come to that conclusion????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By watching the video and discussing it in the other thread on this event.

Magnum 357
12-28-2009, 19:32
David:

I hope you are never in a jury or a judge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Deaf Smith
12-28-2009, 21:09
David:

I hope you are never in a jury or a judge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yea Magnum, after seeing him in the video racking the slide like crazy, aiming, gun don't fire, then racking again, then aiming, gun don't fire, then racking again.... hmm would a Glock or Smith M10 have done better if they were fully loaded and like one in the chamber to begin with?

I'd say yep, he would have fired immediately and, as in the video, at the range he would have been firing, the outcome would have been alot different.

A whole lot different!

Deaf

David Armstrong
12-29-2009, 14:19
David:

I hope you are never in a jury or a judge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't have to worry too much about that. I do the expert witness stuff. Not sure what that has to do with the fact that the guy was miles behind the curve and already shot before he even got his hands on a weapon, however.

David Armstrong
12-29-2009, 14:21
I'd say yep, he would have fired immediately and, as in the video, at the range he would have been firing, the outcome would have been alot different.

A whole lot different!
Ummm, do you even know what the outcome was? Did the guy live or die? How many times was he shot? How many times was he hit before he got the gun out? How many attackers were there? Or is this just some of that making up facts to fit a preconceived conclusion stuff?

Deaf Smith
12-29-2009, 18:33
Ummm, do you even know what the outcome was? Did the guy live or die? How many times was he shot? How many times was he hit before he got the gun out? How many attackers were there? Or is this just some of that making up facts to fit a preconceived conclusion stuff?


Well david if you had watched the video and read at the top of the screen you would have noticed....

"The Agra police have released the CCTV footage of a murder inside a jewelery store. The images are of two gunmen barging into the jewelery shop on Sunday and opening fire."

Deaf

David Armstrong
12-29-2009, 22:37
Well david if you had watched the video and read at the top of the screen you would have noticed....
Deaf
I've noticed that, which is my point. This guy was shot BEFORE he got his hand on a gun. Having a round in the chamber would not have changed that at all. The only way one can use this as a "C3 is bad" argument is if they are working off of an established agenda rather than taking an honest look at the facts. Again, folks might want to try the other thread for a less biased view about the incident.

Deaf Smith
12-30-2009, 17:13
I've noticed that, which is my point. This guy was shot BEFORE he got his hand on a gun. Having a round in the chamber would not have changed that at all. The only way one can use this as a "C3 is bad" argument is if they are working off of an established agenda rather than taking an honest look at the facts. Again, folks might want to try the other thread for a less biased view about the incident.

So, because you say he was shot before his hand was on his gun he should have done what?

Just die?

Quit?

Surrender?

Or keep fighting?

And to keep fighting he needed to do what?

Load the gun, right? He tried to do but failed cause it was chamber empty.

See david, there were other people there to protect, and I doubt he KNEW he was dead, or going to die.

I think the other readers here know the answer.

Deaf

David Armstrong
12-30-2009, 22:55
So, because you say he was shot before his hand was on his gun he should have done what?
I'm not saying he should have done anything. I'm pointing out that it is quite a stretch to try to turn this video into a "gee, look how bad C3 is" discussion. That is why I keep referring folks back to the other thread. There was an excellent discussion over there based on the video, while here the discussion has been driven by a few folks who want to use the video to support a preconceived position. Thus the point that it is interesting how someone who comes to the discussion with a closed mind and preconceived conclusion develops a very different take on an event when compared to those who have looked at the same event with an open mind.

Deaf Smith
12-31-2009, 15:42
I'm not saying he should have done anything.


Should have done anything? David he was getting robbed and shot. Done anything?

So basically you are giving up and trying to pass the argument to others, right? Because, what, you cannot articulate well? Don't have a idea?

Well to the rest of the guys here, you will note if you are getting robbed and shot, giving up is not much of an option, and having to chamber load a pistol while having that done to you isn't a good idea either.

Deaf

Scouse
12-31-2009, 16:52
Civilian carry of handguns (Jewelry and stuff) in India is .32 calibre only.

Semi Auto or Revolver.

I know that because I used to help out a Gunsmith, in Toronto, in his shop now and again. Harry picked up some S&W .32 S&W 6 shot Revolvers (very good condition, ex of Toronto Police) like Mod 10s, all the same size parts, frame, and butt, except a skinny .32 barrel, and .32 cylinder. No real recoil, and very accurate, we were getting a good $ for them, shipping them to India.

Their access to training, none existent, extra rounds, I think it was 50 rounds of round nose lead bullets (Cartridges) when you bought it.

My cousin was a Sgt. in Metro Police, and carried a .32 when he joined the force from the Fleet Air Arm Brit Navy, in 1946 when he demobbed in Canada.

Some kid in a convenience store shot at him, he shot back, from 6 feet, but there was a box of empty coke bottles in the way, the round nosed bullet made it through one bottle, ended up in the next!

The problem? No training, just carried the gun, never shot it, and not a very aggressive people. Looked like if he had got a shot or shots off, he was a dead duck anyhow, carrying a .32 pocket pistol breach empty, dumb.

I carry a Glock 19 sixteen rounds ready to go, full magazine, +1!!! That's the way to go, "More is better, always!" I said that.

Deaf Smith
12-31-2009, 18:36
The way I look at it Scouse, is that while it is a 'personal decision' (heck, everything you do is a 'personal decision'), there is no reason to complicate matters.

Now we have explored several reasons one might complicate it and carry chamber empty.

1. Non-drop safe weapon.
2. Non safe carry method (say pocket carry without any kind of holster.)
3. Abject unfamiliarly with ones weapon.

We have also explored disadvantages with chamber empty carry.

1. Takes two hands to handle my whopp...
2. Very difficult to chamber load, one handed or two, if grappling with ones attacker.
3. Short stroking under pressure a real possibility.
4. Taking extra time when time is short.
5. Very difficult if the attacker is with reach to chamber and not be open to a grab.

I'm sure there are more reasons, but those above will do.

And the advantages of having it fully loaded.

1. Immediate use without any wasted time.
2. Use by one hand (hopefully either hand.)
3. Use in a CQB situation.
4. One extra round (the one already chambered.)

So while it's a 'personal decision', it's a wise decision to carry the weapon fully loaded (and in a secure holster!) Not to mention be skilled with ones chosen weapon!

Deaf

Scouse
12-31-2009, 21:15
everything you do is a 'personal decision'

Deaf, you might not realize how brilliant your statement above is, till you dissect it.

For instance, it is not only a 'personal decision to have a round chambered, it is also a 'personal decision as to what it is chambered in? Mine a Glock 19, 16 rounds of 9mm, drop proof, no safety catches, or switches at all to make it go bang, just a single finger.

Next, it is a 'personal decision as to how you are going to carry it, what holster, what mode of concealment.

And last but not least, 'personal decision, what trigger weight, and fiber optic sights.

So you have picked up from a single 'personal decision, the chambered/or not.

To the full Monty! Armed for most situations, head shots at 10 yds, body hits somewhere up to 150yds, for moderately good shots. Three double taps at three assailants, 3-5-7 yards from a concealed draw in about 3 seconds.

Add a spare Glock 17 magazine, small bright flashlight, and a good folding knife... What else do you need? Oh Yes! Live in Florida!!!


The way I look at it Scouse, is that while it is a 'personal decision' (heck, everything you do is a 'personal decision'), there is no reason to complicate matters.

Now we have explored several reasons one might complicate it and carry chamber empty.

1. Non-drop safe weapon.
2. Non safe carry method (say pocket carry without any kind of holster.)
3. Abject unfamiliarly with ones weapon.

We have also explored disadvantages with chamber empty carry.

1. Takes two hands to handle my whopp...
2. Very difficult to chamber load, one handed or two, if grappling with ones attacker.
3. Short stroking under pressure a real possibility.
4. Taking extra time when time is short.
5. Very difficult if the attacker is with reach to chamber and not be open to a grab.

I'm sure there are more reasons, but those above will do.

And the advantages of having it fully loaded.

1. Immediate use without any wasted time.
2. Use by one hand (hopefully either hand.)
3. Use in a CQB situation.
4. One extra round (the one already chambered.)

So while it's a 'personal decision', it's a wise decision to carry the weapon fully loaded (and in a secure holster!) Not to mention be skilled with ones chosen weapon!

Deaf

Deaf Smith
12-31-2009, 22:34
everything you do is a 'personal decision'

Deaf, you might not realize how brilliant your statement above is, till you dissect it.

For instance, it is not only a 'personal decision to have a round chambered, it is also a 'personal decision as to what it is chambered in? Mine a Glock 19, 16 rounds of 9mm, drop proof, no safety catches, or switches at all to make it go bang, just a single finger.

Next, it is a 'personal decision as to how you are going to carry it, what holster, what mode of concealment.

And last but not least, 'personal decision, what trigger weight, and fiber optic sights.

So you have picked up from a single 'personal decision, the chambered/or not.

To the full Monty! Armed for most situations, head shots at 10 yds, body hits somewhere up to 150yds, for moderately good shots. Three double taps at three assailants, 3-5-7 yards from a concealed draw in about 3 seconds.

Add a spare Glock 17 magazine, small bright flashlight, and a good folding knife... What else do you need? Oh Yes! Live in Florida!!!

No no no Scouse. Live in Texas (but for me that's by birth.) But I've got to admit, Florida is a nice one.

But while we have the right to make our decisions, we have a responsibility to make good ones.

And that is alot of what I'm trying to tell david.

Deaf

David Armstrong
01-01-2010, 11:08
So basically you are giving up and trying to pass the argument to others, right? Because, what, you cannot articulate well? Don't have a idea?
No, deaf. The point, which seems to pass by you every time, is that YOU keep trying to line out positions that others have not taken. YOU are making claims about what they are saying instead of dealing with what they have actually said. YOU are the one who is giving up, not on the argument, but on dealing with what is really said, and instead going back to your old tactic of "Man, I'm getting beat up on the actual facts and issues, so let's make something up, claim the other guy said it or has taken that position, then try to get the argument to focus on that, rather than the issues."

Here is the issue again, deaf, as you seem to have forgotten it: Would carrrying chamber loaded have changed the outcome of this shooting? The answwer, of course, is "no", as Scouse has also pointed (unless I misunderstood him) when he said. "The problem? No training, just carried the gun, never shot it, and not a very aggressive people. Looked like if he had got a shot or shots off, he was a dead duck anyhow,...."
Using your reasoning, deaf, anytime somebody screws up with a chamber loaded gun and gets shot it is evidence that chamber loaded is a bad way to carry!:yawn:

And that is alot of what I'm trying to tell david.
No, deaf, what you are trying to tell David and others is "there is only one right way to carry a gun, no matter what the individual situation, and it is the way that I think it should be carried." It is pretty obvious, even in your "lists" where you neglect to mention any of the advantages of chamber empty carry and neglect to mention any of the disadvantages of chamber loaded carry. You have an established agenda, and it prevents you from looking at these situations with an open mind.

Deaf Smith
01-01-2010, 12:14
Here is the issue again, deaf, as you seem to have forgotten it: Would carrrying chamber loaded have changed the outcome of this shooting?

Yea the outcome would have been differnt david. Some dead bad guys? And when faced with the same situation we all know you might survive the wounds and don't roll over and play dead.



No, deaf, what you are trying to tell David and others is "there is only one right way to carry a gun, no matter what the individual situation, and it is the way that I think it should be carried." It is pretty obvious, even in your "lists" where you neglect to mention any of the advantages of chamber empty carry and neglect to mention any of the disadvantages of chamber loaded carry. You have an established agenda, and it prevents you from looking at these situations with an open mind.

Advantages of chamber empty carry?

Short of being fumble fingered there ain't any. I metioned some reasons why one would carry chamber empty (as you seem to have failed to read.) And the disadvantages of carrying a loaded gun? Oh, yea, you might violate the four basic rules of safety and shoot yourself, right?

Really, if you don't have time to learn how to safely handle ones weapon, then you really don't need it.

Deaf

Sweatnbullets
01-01-2010, 15:10
Watch this video:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712

and then ask me why I carry a REVOLVER S&W for self defense!!!!!

Why do you carry a "Revolver S&W" (never heard it called that before) for self defense, all knowing one?

David Armstrong
01-01-2010, 17:57
Yea the outcome would have been differnt david. Some dead bad guys?
That is a wonderful guess on your part with nothing to support it, of course. The facts are simple: there were multiple attackers and they had shot him before he could do anything.
Advantages of chamber empty carry?
Short of being fumble fingered there ain't any.
Once again we see how a preconceived conclusion prohiits the ability to look at the facts. Thousands of folks have found advantages for them and their organizations, and they have done so for decades.
And the disadvantages of carrying a loaded gun? Oh, yea, you might violate the four basic rules of safety and shoot yourself, right?
That can be one, and perhaps an important one given the number of AD/NDs we see each year.

Deaf Smith
01-01-2010, 18:09
That is a wonderful guess on your part with nothing to support it, of course. The facts are simple: there were multiple attackers and they had shot him before he could do anything.

What? You mean he didn't rack the slide several times david? Didn't do anything? I sure saw him try several times TO TRY TO DO SOMETHING! But then, trying to chamber a round while being suddenly attacked and shot isn't like the square range.


That can be one, and perhaps an important one given the number of AD/NDs we see each year.

And that's one of the bad parts about chamber empty. It gives you the thought your gun isn't loaded. And how many people are killed and injured each year by 'unloaded guns'. How many people pull triggers of guns they thought were unloaded.

And that is why chamber loaded is a better way. Cause you KNOW it's loaded. And you know to keep, as SayUncle says, 'keep your boggerhook off the bang switch'.

Deaf

David Armstrong
01-01-2010, 18:52
What? You mean he didn't rack the slide several times david? Didn't do anything?
Once again, deaf, we see your bad habit of making things up instead of dealing with what was actually said. Here, let's compare:

David says: "The facts are simple: there were multiple attackers and they had shot him before he could do anything."

deaf says: "What? You mean he didn't rack the slide several times david? Didn't do anything? I sure saw him try several times TO TRY TO DO SOMETHING!"

Quite a diffence there. Perhaps you honestly can't figure out that difference, but I doubt it. Again, it makes a lot of difference if one is pushing an agenda instead of looking at the facts objectively.

And how many people are killed and injured each year by 'unloaded guns'.
None. At least none that are shot. That is sort of the point.
How many people pull triggers of guns they thought were unloaded.
Don't know, but apparenlty a fair number of them are mistaken when they do so.
And that is why chamber loaded is a better way. Cause you KNOW it's loaded. And you know to keep, as SayUncle says, 'keep your boggerhook off the bang switch'.

Yep, we've seen how well that works, right? Given that there are almost no AD/NDs every year, right? You know this is a losing argument, right? I mean, you are going to try to argue that people aren't smart enough to know if their gun is loaded or not, so loading it makes everyone safer because they are all going to obey safety rules?:wow:

sparky241
01-01-2010, 19:10
This is a REAL EXAMPLE why people should carry a REVOLVER for SELF DEFENSE...you don't have to worry about recking the slide or having a JAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no? almost every revolver i had would start to lock up after it got hot. my glock didnt. i think he died because he #1 had no round in the chamber and #2 he had a poor quality gun.

JDurfee
01-01-2010, 20:49
Many people carry a revolver because its a simple design and is relatively easy to operate. So by the same token should the BG acquire your weapon he'll have just as easy of a time using it on you as you would him.
That video was a crappy situation. The guy was shot before he drew his weapon. Panic, then add bullet wound. panic+bullet wound=panic 10X. Had he had one in the pipe he may have got a shot off. Only way to prevent that situation... Guards armed with dillon mini-guns :cool: 3500 rounds a minute is enough to deter just about everyone.

PhoneCop
01-01-2010, 22:29
Absolutely.

In the last thread everyone seemed to thing they would have simply rocked some El Presidente getting instantly lethal CNS on the bad guys and walking away unscathed.

I allllllways love the gross misrepresentation of other's points. Well, not really.

Observing that carrying a gun for self-defense and then not carrying the same gun in the most ready condition for self-defense is hardly going all El Presidente.

PhoneCop
01-01-2010, 22:30
Yes. The problem, IMO, is that some folks look at these various situations with the goal of trying to support their preconceived biases and/or personal agendas rather than looking at them with open minds and from multiple perspectives.

Clearly your mind is so open. Ain't that something. Trying taking some of your own advise on that one.

Regarding not looking at situations for the truth, I harken to your earlier admission... No matter how clear the evidence, distract the jury....

...I do the expert witness stuff. Not sure what that has to do with the fact that the guy was miles behind the curve and already shot before he even got his hands on a weapon, however.

One shot is always fatal... :upeyes:

David Armstrong
01-02-2010, 09:47
no? almost every revolver i had would start to lock up after it got hot. my glock didnt. i think he died because he #1 had no round in the chamber and #2 he had a poor quality gun.
If your revolver is locking up when it gets hot, the revolver is defective in some way. A well-made quality revolver should not do that.

David Armstrong
01-02-2010, 09:52
Clearly your mind is so open. Ain't that something. Trying taking some of your own advise on that one.
I'm not the one constantly trying to suggest that there is only one way to do something no matter what the situation or need. I'm the one who suggests taking a look at the entire picture rather than focus on only one small part of the problem. I'm always open to whatever works best for that iindividual is what that individual should do, as opposed to the one-size-fits-all-and-the-size-is-the-one-that-fits-me philosophy regularly presented by a few folks here. My mind is quite open.
One shot is always fatal
Hmmm. Looks like you are the only one who has said that. I certainly didn't.

Deaf Smith
01-02-2010, 18:39
Yep, we've seen how well that works, right? Given that there are almost no AD/NDs every year, right? You know this is a losing argument, right? I mean, you are going to try to argue that people aren't smart enough to know if their gun is loaded or not, so loading it makes everyone safer because they are all going to obey safety rules?:wow:

So david, using your crystal ball you know all these AD/NDs had nothing to do with those who kept or carried chamber empty and forgot the chamber had been loaded? Or that some had to do with kids getting a hold of them? Or some dropping non drop safe pistols, as happened to Steve Malloy who packed a Colt '03 .32, fully loaded, and bent over and the weapon fell to the floor, firing a fatal shot into him (and this is one of the exceptions I pointed out about non drop safe pistols to be carried chamber empty.)

What is more, considering the MILLIONS of people, LEOs and civilians, that carry chamber loaded guns each day, the AD/ND rate is extremely low, regardless of how they had the AD/ND.

Which brings us back to the original concept of fully loaded weapons.

Yes david, it is a 'choice'. A personal choice'. But a choice is not, in itself, the best way. Chamber empty has shown so many faults that unless you are in a narrow category, as I've posted, then it's a poor choice that can be changed to a better one by either getting a better weapon or training.

Deaf

David Armstrong
01-02-2010, 19:22
So david, using your crystal ball you know all these AD/NDs had nothing to do with those who kept or carried chamber empty and forgot the chamber had been loaded?
Once again you try to make something up that was not said and then try to make an issue of it. It's pretty simple, deaf. If the gun is not loaded, it can't AD/ND.
Chamber empty has shown so many faults that unless you are in a narrow category, as I've posted, then it's a poor choice that can be changed to a better one by either getting a better weapon or training.
Chamber empty carry has some faults, just as chamber loaded carry has some faults, just as they both have their advantages. Which one is a poor choice depends on a variety of factors that can differ for each person and their situation. And given the large number of very well trained individuals who have had AD/NDs, it seems pretty obvious that "better training" doesn't do much. As for "better weapons", perhaps you would care to hazard a guess at the handgun that has accumulated the greatest number of verified AD/NDs in the last couple of decades?
But again, you seem to contradict yourself. You want to claim that people cannot figure out chamber empty versus chamber loaded, but they can remember all the safety rules, follow them all the time, etc.

All of this, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that the guy from Agra was the victim of a surprise attack by multiple assailants where the condition of the chamber or the selection of the weapon had no bearing on the final outcome.

PhoneCop
01-02-2010, 20:25
I'm the one who suggests taking a look at the entire picture rather than focus on only one small part of the problem.

Ain't that precious. Needin' the gun to go bang RIGHT FRICKIN NOW is, in David's world, one small part of the problem. Wow, just, wow.

Actually your so committed to Empty Chamber it makes one suspect you expert witness testified at a suit against a department when an officer was shot while doing so by department policy... or maybe it was yours.

Anyways.

I'm always open to whatever works best for that iindividual is what that individual should do, as opposed to the one-size-fits-all-and-the-size-is-the-one-that-fits-me philosophy regularly presented by a few folks here. My mind is quite open.

Except when you disagree with it. Hey, at least I'm honest about my closed-mindedness.

the guy was miles behind the curve and already shot before he even got his hands on a weapon, however.

....
One shot is always fatal... :upeyes:



Hmmm. Looks like you are the only one who has said that. I certainly didn't.

Good, since one shot is not always fatal and the guy didn't die immediately and he was trying to fight but couldn't because his chamber was empty then a reasonable person's mind is open to the very real possibility the guy died because he was carrying with an empty chamber.

Not cooking up academic argument and ignoring evidence to the contrary.

I'm done here.

That guy is the result of advocating empty chamber instead of advoacting more training and practice. Don't cater to inability, strongly advocate improvement.

Deaf Smith
01-02-2010, 21:02
Once again you try to make something up that was not said and then try to make an issue of it. It's pretty simple, deaf. If the gun is not loaded, it can't AD/ND.

Oh yea it can david. Happens all the time when people first rack the slide (and no round ejects) and THEN they take the magazine out.

Can that be cured by training? Yep. Just like keeping ones boogerhook off the bang switch. And that's what one does when carrying with the chamber loaded.


All of this, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that the guy from Agra was the victim of a surprise attack by multiple assailants where the condition of the chamber or the selection of the weapon had no bearing on the final outcome.

If you include some dead BGs, yea it would have changed the final outcome. And if his wounds had not been fatal, then yes, to keep fighting and stopping the attackers would have changed the final outcome.

The biggist lesson to learn from Agra is that when faced with a sudden attack, having the weapon chamber loaded keeps you from having to TRY to chamber load your weapon while under attack.

Deaf

Scouse
01-03-2010, 05:41
This is a silly argument, you always carry a gun loaded, ready to fire, anybody who does not, is a half wit.

Sitting here, thick dressing gown on, Glock 19 with 16 rounds up in pocket, go back to bed, on bedside table, showered and dressed, in holster.

Run thumb down side of holster, I can feel the wee lump on the extractor, glance at my pistol, as I holster, live round can be seen, and felt, via the extractor.

This poor assassinated person was not trained, had a crap gun, chamber empty, lived in a country that caused him to be armed with a .32!

His place of business, no man trap door, a crowd could be in the showroom instantly.

Ghandi, a man of peace, stated the "Worse thing the British did, was to take the guns away from the Indian people" I will sip my Coffee to that. A bacon butte might go good with it also.

Every body I know who carry all the time, can clear a Pistol, and fire the first aimed shot in a second and a half. Not with chamber empty, not whilst dragging my Wife to a place of cover, not at the same time as I am pushing a baby crowd, 2-3-4 out of the way, and still drawing and firing.

Anybody, in the US of A, where we live, not carrying a finger press away from a bang (16 of them?, at least) is stupid. They are my honest my feelings.

Back to bed for an hour, it is cold out there, in the 40s, in Florida? BRRRR.

David Armstrong
01-03-2010, 11:13
Ain't that precious. Needin' the gun to go bang RIGHT FRICKIN NOW is, in David's world, one small part of the problem. Wow, just, wow.
Yes, that is correct. It is ONE small part of the overall problem, not just in David's world, but in the world of many organizations and many people. That is what so many of the agenda driven folks fail to realize, the "quick draw gotta shoot a bad guy in a fraction of a second right now" event is only one small part of the overall issue of using a firearm.
Actually your so committed to Empty Chamber ...
There is more of that agenda problem. I'm not committed to empty chamber. I'm copmmitted to a reasonable and rational assessment of what bets fits the individual needs and situation.
Hey, at least I'm honest about my closed-mindedness.
That pretty much says and explains it all. When one is agenda driven one can rarely see anything that does not further that agenda.
Good, since one shot is not always fatal and the guy didn't die immediately and he was trying to fight but couldn't because his chamber was empty then a reasonable person's mind is open to the very real possibility the guy died because he was carrying with an empty chamber.
If one is agenda driven, yes. A more honest view is that an unaware person was attacked by multiple assailants who shot him before he could react with anything.
I'm done here.
Bye bye!
That guy is the result of advocating empty chamber instead of advoacting more training and practice. Don't cater to inability, strongly advocate improvement.
Nobody disagrees with that, but the reality of life is that most folks have very limited training and practice resources. I tend to try to focus on the reality of the issue.

David Armstrong
01-03-2010, 11:24
Oh yea it can david. Happens all the time when people first rack the slide (and no round ejects) and THEN they take the magazine out.
Sigh. We see here a perfect example of the agenda. Only someone trying to support a belief could say that a gun is chamber empty when someone has racked the slide and put a round into the chamber. But wait a minute. Aren't these people the same ones you are saying can follow the safety rules and such? Hmmm, seems a bit of a disconnect again.
Can that be cured by training? Yep.
And yet we regularly see the AD/ND problem in organizations and individuals with extensive training. And that "solution" ignores the fact that so many folks have lilmited training resources. The fact that most folks cannot do brain surgery can be cured by training.
If you include some dead BGs, yea it would have changed the final outcome.
Ummm, that is sort of like saying if Connolly had not been shot it would have changed the outcome of the Kennedy assassination.
And if his wounds had not been fatal, then yes, to keep fighting and stopping the attackers would have changed the final outcome.
And if the BGs had not come in, he would never have been shot. And if the BGs had a flamethrower he would have been burned. And if he had been wearing a magic suit he could have disappeared.
To reiterate...the fact that somedy does something wrong is not evidence that it is wrong to do that thing, no matter how much you try to twist it.

Scouse
01-03-2010, 12:36
Well,

Enough of this serious "I was an expert Witness" I was as well! Still am... Now the most hilarious one, 12 years ago?

It is on my Bio, could not be bothered to punch it up just for the date.

One of my trainees, when he worked for a ATM Machine business, was a real nice guy, everybody liked him, born in Jamaica, guns were not his thing, he passed the program, and worked there for a while, he then decided to try out for the Cops.

Went to the Academy, must have passed, because next time I saw him, he was driving a Police Vehicle.

A friend of mine had his Wife working on the same Squad as he was, no problem getting stuck in in a fight, she said, a real nice guy.

Some time after that I got a visit on my range by two of the Police Association, for his Force.

After some good coffee and equally good muffins (supplied) we got down to business.

Would I defend him in a Police Act charge? "What is wrong with your Instructor?" said I, "He will not" I was told. OK Said I, take me to the scene of the crime!

They still had Revolvers then. S&W Mod. 64, nice smooth actions, well maintained, Safariland rubber grips.

This is his locker, this is similar gun, and these two tracks? Leading to his locker, under the carpet (TWO!) are ADs he fired after cleaning his Mod 64, and reloading it.

"How did he do that Mike, twice?"

I showed them, anyone one know how?

Scouse
01-03-2010, 12:54
First one to answer better be RIGHT!!

2 Hawks
01-03-2010, 16:37
This guy didn't have a chance. Action VS. Reaction; he's already behind the curve, add to this failure to return fire. It's any bodies guess as to why he had a weapons failure, was it bad ammo? or empty chamber? Bottom line; time ran out quickly, bad guy's seeing the opportunity to finish his threat came quickly..He inadvertently gave the bad guy's a chance and they took it. We know the outcome. I'd like to think had he been able to quickly return fire it could have ended with one or both bad guys shot too, even if he did take some rounds he could have had a fighting chance. That I think is what we would have hoped for. I choose to carry loaded chamber, when my gun is in a holster on my person.

Deaf Smith
01-03-2010, 20:36
This guy didn't have a chance. Action VS. Reaction; he's already behind the curve, add to this failure to return fire. It's any bodies guess as to why he had a weapons failure, was it bad ammo? or empty chamber? Bottom line; time ran out quickly, bad guy's seeing the opportunity to finish his threat came quickly..He inadvertently gave the bad guy's a chance and they took it. We know the outcome. I'd like to think had he been able to quickly return fire it could have ended with one or both bad guys shot too, even if he did take some rounds he could have had a fighting chance. That I think is what we would have hoped for. I choose to carry loaded chamber, when my gun is in a holster on my person.

And yes 2 Hawks, he was behind the curve.

david says this is 'agenda' driven. No, it's lesson driven. And the lesson for us is that if WE are behind the curve, we sure don't need to add the extra manipulation of chamber loading while fighting for our lives. No imagine the same man grappling with one of the attackers and then having to chamber load his simi-auto!

And I think most GT readers see this, even if david does not.


Scouse,

I'll take a stab. A stuck slug in the barrel and the discharge put two slugs in the carpet? That or he was trying to 'fan' a DA revolver and got mixed up in the sequence.

Deaf

Scouse
01-03-2010, 21:27
And yes 2 Hawks, he was behind the curve.

david says this is 'agenda' driven. No, it's lesson driven. And the lesson for us is that if WE are behind the curve, we sure don't need to add the extra manipulation of chamber loading while fighting for our lives. No imagine the same man grappling with one of the attackers and then having to chamber load his simi-auto!

And I think most GT readers see this, even if david does not.


Scouse,

I'll take a stab. A stuck slug in the barrel and the discharge put two slugs in the carpet? That or he was trying to 'fan' a DA revolver and got mixed up in the sequence.Deaf

Sat on the bench, put the 6 rounds in by hand (not with a speed loader) when he closed the cylinder! He pulled the hammer back! CLICK!

Why? I don't know, he did not either, the quickest way to lower it after messing around, was the loud way! The shock of the shot firing, he pulled the trigger again!

BANG/BANG I will tell you what happened at the tribunal when we meet Deaf. Funny.

David Armstrong
01-03-2010, 21:38
david says this is 'agenda' driven. No, it's lesson driven.
If the lesson you get from this is "carry C3 is a bad thing" then you are being driven by the agenda instead of the facts. I don't claim to read every forum on the net, but I'm on a fair number of them, and this has popped up on a few, including another thread on this site. And this thread is the only one I've run across where a couple of folks are trying to argue that this is evidence that C3 is bad.

from Scouse:
Sat on the bench, put the 6 rounds in by hand (not with a speed loader) when he closed the cylinder! He pulled the hammer back! CLICK!
Why? I don't know, he did not either, the quickest way to lower it after messing around, was the loud way! The shock of the shot firing, he pulled the trigger again!
Hmmm. According to deaf, that should be considered evidence of how bad carrying a loaded firearm is instead of bad gunhadling skills. And this fellow had a quality weapon and (I assume) fairly good training, which is supposed to solve this problem, again, according to deaf.
FYI, I've encountered that second round startle reflex shot a number of times when investigating shootings, both with revolvers and autos.

matthewa5
01-03-2010, 21:44
Yea, that poor guy was assassinated.

Scouse
01-03-2010, 22:51
If the lesson you get from this is "carry C3 is a bad thing" then you are being driven by the agenda instead of the facts. I don't claim to read every forum on the net, but I'm on a fair number of them, and this has popped up on a few, including another thread on this site. And this thread is the only one I've run across where a couple of folks are trying to argue that this is evidence that C3 is bad.


Hmmm. According to deaf, that should be considered evidence of how bad carrying a loaded firearm is instead of bad gunhadling skills. And this fellow had a quality weapon and (I assume) fairly good training, which is supposed to solve this problem, again, according to deaf.
FYI, I've encountered that second round startle reflex shot a number of times when investigating shootings, both with revolvers and autos.

Well I trained him first!

PhoneCop
01-04-2010, 13:54
opps, I was done here.

Deaf Smith
01-04-2010, 16:38
Hmmm. According to deaf, that should be considered evidence of how bad carrying a loaded firearm is instead of bad gunhadling skills. And this fellow had a quality weapon and (I assume) fairly good training, which is supposed to solve this problem, again, according to deaf.
FYI, I've encountered that second round startle reflex shot a number of times when investigating shootings, both with revolvers and autos.


Maybe the 'agenda' driven is more of david's than anyone else.

And the facts I point out, agenda or not, are facts.

Chamber loading under adverse conditions is asking for trouble. Wither cause you have only one hand, or you are grappling, or you short stroke, you still are asking for trouble, and only a few, very narrow categories of circumstances would give reason to carry your weapon in that state.

Deaf

Scouse
01-04-2010, 17:32
Put me on the spot now Deaf! With the cylinder open, pull the release latch back, that allows the hammer to be cocked, I think, it's a while since I tried that trick.

What my student did was this, sitting on his bench... With six rounds in the cylinder HE COCKED IT! I don't know why, but in lowering the hammer, it went off... TWICE! Like slip, and then yank on the trigger. Two wee tunnels all the way to his locker, under the carpet.

I was paid, and a Glass Beer Mug!



And david says he is some kind of court expert.

Hmmmm.

Guys on GT, get a Smith 64, empty please, and cock the weapon. Now TRY to open the cylinder! Hmmm don't work so hot, does it?

Now uncock the 64 and open the cylinder. Now with the cylinder open, cock the hammer. Hmmm, don't work so hot either, does it?

In fact, unless THE REVOLVER IS DEFECTIVE, you can't**. So yep, I'd carry that one chamber empty (in fact I wouldn't carry it at all and I think the guy who had the AD is completly innocent.)

But the 'expert', david, thinks it is the way it's supposed to work. Tells you alot, doesn't it?

Maybe the 'agenda' driven is more of david's than anyone else.

Deaf

** actually there IS a way, but it takes some doing and you have to want to bypass the safties.

Deaf Smith
01-04-2010, 18:21
Put me on the spot now Deaf! With the cylinder open, pull the release latch back, that allows the hammer to be cocked, I think, it's a while since I tried that trick.

What my student did was this, sitting on his bench... With six rounds in the cylinder HE COCKED IT! I don't know why, but in lowering the hammer, it went off... TWICE! Like slip, and then yank on the trigger. Two wee tunnels all the way to his locker, under the carpet.

I was paid, and a Glass Beer Mug!

I saw that Scouse after I posted it and figured he cocked the dang piece after he close the cylinder! Yea, no idea why he did that.

You also saw the trick to get past the safties!

Deaf

David Armstrong
01-05-2010, 11:22
And david says he is some kind of court expert.
Actually the courts have said that. Sort of an independent third-party review, as it were.
But the 'expert', david, thinks it is the way it's supposed to work. Tells you alot, doesn't it?
Since David does not think that is the way it is supposed to work, and since David did not say that was the way it was supposed to work, yes, it does tell us a lot but not about David. It tells us a lot about folks with an agenda who make things up instead of dealing with what was actually said.:upeyes:
Maybe the 'agenda' driven is more of david's than anyone else.
Hard to argue someone has an agenda when they are advocating each person should do what is best for them in their situation, as opposed to the "everyone needs to do it this way no matter what" perspective.
And the facts I point out, agenda or not, are facts.
Some are facts, some are not. Where the agenda comes in is the one-sided presentation, without any consideration or even recognition of the other elements that do not support the agenda.

As happens so often, deaf, you have again chosen to go with the "I'm going to make things up and blame it on someone else" school of discussion when you cannot dispute the facts and the reality. And we've seen enough of the presentation, both here and on the other thread, for folks to come to a conclusion. So I'll follow the lead of PhoneCop and be done here. Bye bye.:wavey:

Ticman
01-05-2010, 12:35
There's no way to know if he would live or die if he had a round in the chamber. But, he would have had a chance to put a few holes in the BG's. I watched the time and most anyone could empty a mag in that amount of time.

Still no garantee he lives, but I would rather have "a" chance than "no" chance. I've seen a lot of videos where the BG's took off running when someone started returning fire.

For me, I'll keep one in the chamber.

Alaskapopo
01-07-2010, 21:10
Watch this video:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712

and then ask me why I carry a REVOLVER S&W for self defense!!!!!

More cops have died with revolvers while trying to reload than cops have died with Autos that malfunctioned. Revolvers are a still viable for self defense but they are obsolete. The biggest draw back is slow reload times and a small ammo capacity. They are good for self defense against 1 armed assailant. But if you are out numbered a revolver is a poor choice.
Pat

Scouse
01-08-2010, 05:32
More cops have died with revolvers while trying to reload than cops have died with Autos that malfunctioned. Revolvers are a still viable for self defense but they are obsolete. The biggest draw back is slow reload times and a small ammo capacity. They are good for self defense against 1 armed assailant. But if you are out numbered a revolver is a poor choice.
Pat

+1

The Evolution of the one hand gun, single shot pistol, 6 shot revolver, pour in powder to metallic cartridges, the self loader.

The hi-capacity self loader, replace steel with polymer. Then the constant improvement in every which way to the existing company weapons, at this time culminating in things like Fiber Optic sights, triggers with constant release weight and tiny resets, all to give people who carry these one hand fighting tools the best possible chance to staying alive in a confrontation, with one, or multiple assailants, then we talk about regressing to 1800 technology?
The revolver as a main on person carry weapon?

Or removing one of the steps that is built in to the self loading pistols instant readiness? Like deploying with no round in the breach?

MORE IS BETTER ALWAYS, I coined that phrase in the mid 1980s with the advent of the first move towards hi capacity pistols that I felt were viable for use by Police. I have not changed my mind.

Deaf Smith
01-08-2010, 18:06
And that guys is why I recomend if one carries a revolver... they carry TWO. The NY reload is no joke!

Deaf

Scouse
01-08-2010, 19:18
And that guys is why I recommend if one carries a revolver... they carry TWO. The NY reload is no joke!

Deaf

Sorry Deaf!!!! Its all about rolling shots, not 6 and dig up an other gun!
Better, and more skin on grip, better sights, better trigger, better ergonomics, lower center of barrel to height above hand, more weight in hand, etc,etc.

Deaf Smith
01-08-2010, 22:33
Sorry Deaf!!!! Its all about rolling shots, not 6 and dig up an other gun!
Better, and more skin on grip, better sights, better trigger, better ergonomics, lower center of barrel to height above hand, more weight in hand, etc,etc.

Well Scouse, I didn't say a wheelgun was THE pick! My 642 is the secondary, the 26 (Glock) the primary. But if one decides the wheelgun is the way they want to go, then I suggest two!

Deaf

Scouse
01-09-2010, 07:07
Well Scouse, I didn't say a wheelgun was THE pick! My 642 is the secondary, the 26 (Glock) the primary. But if one decides the wheelgun is the way they want to go, then I suggest two!

Deaf

OK. You are awake!

Doc29
01-12-2010, 19:43
I think the revolver vs auto point is kind of moot (he should have had a rifle). If you watch closely the guy was shot before he cleared leather. Once you're hit you're in survival mode and fine motor skills are now deminished to nonexistant. We obviously can't tell what hit him (likely 9mm judging from the demographic in the room) but he lasted 30 seconds before he collapsed. It looks to me the argument for having the gun ready to go could have kept him from taking more hits, and would have put the bad guys on a defensive posture. The argument against the revolver in this case is supported by both law enforcement and the military. Taking the extra time to reload your revolver puts you at a disadvantage, and makes it difficult to press the fight if you are taking fire from someone with a semi-auto. In so far as hand guns are chiefly defensive weapons revolvers simply make you more so.

Glocker1984
01-13-2010, 16:38
I like this video better:


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a12360ec7d


Good Guy: 1
Bad Guy: 0

:wavey:

Deaf Smith
01-13-2010, 17:53
I like this video better:


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a12360ec7d


Good Guy: 1
Bad Guy: 0

:wavey:

But... but... but....he didn't rack the slide?

I've seen this vid before. Yes he hit the BG to. Found him down the road I think. Good job. Used two hands to.

Deaf

Scouse
01-13-2010, 19:59
But... but... but....he didn't rack the slide?

I've seen this vid before. Yes he hit the BG too. Found him down the road I think. Good job. Used two hands too.

Deaf

Gee you are right, he had a chambered round, two hands, and eye level... Yes he used the sights (He is an IPSC competitor) but not a gun fighter, pulled the pistol back to his chest on the last shot. He did not keep the follow through.

Liked the sneaky way he pulled the gun.

Found him 100 yards away, he lived, got him in to the operating room real quick.

Doc29
01-14-2010, 00:24
I agree. Definitely a superior outcome. A loaded gun ready to fight definitely won the day. IPSC or not the good guy had a grasp of the fundamentals and was able to bring the fight to the bad guy.

Scouse
01-14-2010, 00:36
I agree. Definitely a superior outcome. A loaded gun ready to fight definitely won the day. IPSC or not the good guy had a grasp of the fundamentals and was able to bring the fight to the bad guy.

I only mentioned IPSC because that was in the original story I read, did not mean it in a bad way. He did good. The BG beat feet on the first shot!
As nearly always they do, hit or not.

2 Hawks
01-14-2010, 19:10
It's amazing to watch that pink lady with her toddler in her arms, she takes notice that a masked gunman just stormed the premises and then only moves away a mere 10 inches.
Only when the shooting starts does she scoot away stops and gives the clerk who just shot a dirty look. The other clerk then has to tell her to take cover. There are many people out there that lack the God given instinct for self preservation.
Perfect example of sheeple response. This video has a better outcome then the first. Glad the bad guy got a lead spanking..