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Renceri
12-19-2009, 08:51
If you are sleeping then you are awaken by an intruder banging the door of your room,can the .40 180gr federal hst or 147 gr hst penetrate my wooden door which is 1 1/4 inch thick? If not, then I will just take defensive position then wait for him to open my door then after that i will start shooting him.your opinions are welcome.

G21FAN
12-19-2009, 09:06
Shooting someone banging on your door, through the door will land you a felony and prison time. No immenint reasonable fear from a person on the other side of a closed door.

Glockdude1
12-19-2009, 09:16
As long as the the door is still closed/locked, he is still outside, you have time to call 911 and take up a defensive position with your pistol. Now if for some reason he comes thru the door before police arrive, then by all means shoot him.

:cool:

Renceri
12-19-2009, 09:21
What i mean is he is already inside your house and you are inside one of your rooms that is locked but he is banging and trying to open your room in which you are sleeping.

DRT
12-19-2009, 09:29
If you are sleeping then you are awaken by an intruder banging the door of your room,can the .40 180gr federal hst or 147 gr hst penetrate my wooden door which is 1 1/4 inch thick? If not, then I will just take defensive position then wait for him to open my door then after that i will start shooting him.your opinions are welcome.

Though I have no comment regarding the particular scenario you described above, a .40 180gr HST will have no problem penetrating a 1 1/4 inch thick door. I shot a .40 180gr HST through both a 4x4 AND 2x4 (~5" of wood in total)and then it went into sand a couple inches. The 165gr bonded Gold Dot performed similarly. Keep in mind that shooting through a thick piece of solid wood will likely plug the hollow point giving you what's essentially an FMJ.

You may wish to read my other posting.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1084469

.

ajstrider
12-19-2009, 09:58
In what I can gather from other tests and such, for barrier penetration you really want a bonded bullet (which I do not believe the HST is, Speer Gold Dots and Winchester PDX1 are bonded) or a solid copper bullet from say Magtech or Cor Bon. Also, it would appear that smaller diameter and faster bullets penetrate barriers better than big heavy bullets. In all tests that I remember the .357 Sig with hot 125 grain loads is the barrier penetrating king with 9mm 124 grain +p loads pulling in second. But that is what I gather from the research that I have done and I am sure someone will post after me and shoot me down.

As far as the scenario goes, shooting through a closed door even if he is in the house is not a smart idea, the blood sucking lawyers will destroy you in court. Nearly all classes teach you to lock yourself in a room, handgun in one hand and a cell phone in the other and to call the police. If he smashes into the room and poses a serious threat, by all means, defend yourself. The phone is just as much a weapon as the handgun. Just like in combat, the radio can be a more powerful weapon than your assault rifle. Call for help.

unit1069
12-19-2009, 11:49
The law in some states --- if I remember correctly --- is that if someone is trying to break into your home and you reasonably fear for your life you do not have to wait until the perp succeeds in entering the premises. A defender can shoot through a door or window to prevent a deadly attack.

NC GENERAL STATUTE 14‑51.1. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder. (This is commonly called the "Castle Doctrine.")

(a) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence is justified in using any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry (i) if the occupant reasonably apprehends that the intruder may kill or inflict serious bodily harm to the occupant or others in the home or residence, or (ii) if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony in the home or residence.

(b) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence does not have a duty to retreat from an intruder in the circumstances described in this section.

After one unsettling night in a remote cabin I decided I needed a serious handgun instead of the pocket .380ACP I then owned. I decided on .357sig after putting a bit of study into the matter, and one of the factors leading to the decision was learning that it's not necessary to wait until an intruder has entered the premises.

Check your state's law if you're uncertain.

Renceri
12-19-2009, 11:57
The law in some states --- if I remember correctly --- is that if someone is trying to break into your home and you reasonably fear for your life you do not have to wait until the perp succeeds in entering the premises.


yes this is correct but i dont know if this law applies in california also.

RMTactical
12-19-2009, 12:53
Shooting someone banging on your door, through the door will land you a felony and prison time. No immenint reasonable fear from a person on the other side of a closed door.

Actually, depends on the state and local laws.

That said, it may not always be wise to shoot through doors... For several reasons...

mitchshrader
12-19-2009, 13:13
there's two types of threats involved here. One is sufficient to prevent legal action (civil AND criminal) and that standard is different in states with a 'stand your ground' law.

The 2nd standard is REALLY in fear of your life, armed assailant and no expectation of police response inside the critical time frame..and you REALLY need to use deadly force to survive the experience. This doesn't necessarily play well in court, so how you tell it, and how good your lawyer is, are both relevant TO THE COURT CASE. Not to your need for armed response, cause YOU make that call. AFTER you've made that judgment call, a lawyer to clean up the mess is highly appropriate. Know one, have his business card on you, and have a retainer already paid. HAVE A LAWYER, and TELL them you do, and ask for medical treatment and legal advice. MAKE NO STATEMENT! Your lawyer will do that, AFTER you've had an examination (for shock/trauma/grief) and AFTER you've made a statement to HIM (or her), which serves as grounds to limit interviews/interrrogation..Having a lawyer on tap is your first after-incident requirement, and DO have that lawyer with you during depositions.

No exceptions. And no rules on excluding lawyers if they're YOUR lawyers, otherwise they're not permitted. Specifically it's ok to have TRAVELING lawyers, but statements of fact are verifiably critical to your future and it's important to have the facts available. Just YOU don't stand responsible for the accuracy of said facts, that's the lawyers job.

Zombie Steve
12-19-2009, 13:24
Just wanted to point out that in most homes built in the last few decades the interior 1-1/4" doors are hollow core that has a honeycomb of cardboard for support and a thin masonite skin. Not much of a barrier.

Even if your doors really are solid wood, a 180 grain .40 will go through with some steam to spare. Particle board and hardwoods will put up a little more resistance than pine.

Renceri
12-19-2009, 15:43
there's two types of threats involved here. One is sufficient to prevent legal action (civil AND criminal) and that standard is different in states with a 'stand your ground' law.

The 2nd standard is REALLY in fear of your life, armed assailant and no expectation of police response inside the critical time frame..and you REALLY need to use deadly force to survive the experience. This doesn't necessarily play well in court, so how you tell it, and how good your lawyer is, are both relevant TO THE COURT CASE. Not to your need for armed response, cause YOU make that call. AFTER you've made that judgment call, a lawyer to clean up the mess is highly appropriate. Know one, have his business card on you, and have a retainer already paid. HAVE A LAWYER, and TELL them you do, and ask for medical treatment and legal advice. MAKE NO STATEMENT! Your lawyer will do that, AFTER you've had an examination (for shock/trauma/grief) and AFTER you've made a statement to HIM (or her), which serves as grounds to limit interviews/interrrogation..Having a lawyer on tap is your first after-incident requirement, and DO have that lawyer with you during depositions.

No exceptions. And no rules on excluding lawyers if they're YOUR lawyers, otherwise they're not permitted. Specifically it's ok to have TRAVELING lawyers, but statements of fact are verifiably critical to your future and it's important to have the facts available. Just YOU don't stand responsible for the accuracy of said facts, that's the lawyers job.

so what your saying is that even if you waited for the intruder to break the door then after that you shot him and he was killed,you will will still have civil and criminal liability eventhough you are defending yourself?

Renceri
12-19-2009, 15:52
california also has castle doctrine.i just check it.

stengun
12-19-2009, 18:27
Howdy Renceri,

What i mean is he is already inside your house and you are inside one of your rooms that is locked but he is banging and trying to open your room in which you are sleeping.

Wait for him to break the door down first.:upeyes:

Paul

Eagle22
12-20-2009, 12:27
there's two types of threats involved here. One is sufficient to prevent legal action (civil AND criminal) and that standard is different in states with a 'stand your ground' law.

The 2nd standard is REALLY in fear of your life, armed assailant and no expectation of police response inside the critical time frame..and you REALLY need to use deadly force to survive the experience. This doesn't necessarily play well in court, so how you tell it, and how good your lawyer is, are both relevant TO THE COURT CASE. Not to your need for armed response, cause YOU make that call. AFTER you've made that judgment call, a lawyer to clean up the mess is highly appropriate. Know one, have his business card on you, and have a retainer already paid. HAVE A LAWYER, and TELL them you do, and ask for medical treatment and legal advice. MAKE NO STATEMENT! Your lawyer will do that, AFTER you've had an examination (for shock/trauma/grief) and AFTER you've made a statement to HIM (or her), which serves as grounds to limit interviews/interrrogation..Having a lawyer on tap is your first after-incident requirement, and DO have that lawyer with you during depositions.

No exceptions. And no rules on excluding lawyers if they're YOUR lawyers, otherwise they're not permitted. Specifically it's ok to have TRAVELING lawyers, but statements of fact are verifiably critical to your future and it's important to have the facts available. Just YOU don't stand responsible for the accuracy of said facts, that's the lawyers job.

Dont forget the HUGE $$$$ RETAINER fee your lawyer will need, BEFORE he takes your case.

481
12-20-2009, 12:50
Just wanted to point out that in most homes built in the last few decades the interior 1-1/4" doors are hollow core that has a honeycomb of cardboard for support and a thin masonite skin. Not much of a barrier.

Even if your doors really are solid wood, a 180 grain .40 will go through with some steam to spare. Particle board and hardwoods will put up a little more resistance than pine.

Good point, Steve.

Nowadays building materials are much less dense than those of just 30 years ago. "Hollow-core" doors are the rule and where there used to be lattice and plaster construction we now see 1/2 inch drywall on stick frame composed of mostly "open" structure.

I've investigated several (8) shootings over my LE career where homeowners have shot (and killed) intruders (burglars) through bedroom doors and interior walls when the suspect was inside their homes.

Never, did I ever, or another Detective, charge them for the act.

I doubt that it would be a very rare case indeed that someone would be charged for shooting a burglar (or an unknown intruder) within their home and would've never done so myself where the homeowner was truly a victim.

It has been my professional experience that folks involved in lawful self-defense situations like this never "lawyer-up" because it becomes evident very quickly to them that they are not going to face prosecution for their lawfully executed actions.

Even before Ohio enacted "Castle Doctrine" this was the case since none of us could ever imagine bringing before a jury, a homeowner charged criminally in the defense of their home.

Unfortunately, this is not the case everywhere else although it ought to be.

Gunnut 45/454
12-20-2009, 17:15
The OP states the threat is already inside the home trying to get into Bedroom! In just about every state he would be legal in shooting through the door- I know I would! Actually for my home that would be the best senerio as I know then that the bullet that would pass through the perp would be caught in the oposing wall and not go outside my home- great back stop.:supergrin:

Renceri
12-20-2009, 17:31
The OP states the threat is already inside the home trying to get into Bedroom! In just about every state he would be legal in shooting through the door- I know I would! Actually for my home that would be the best senerio as I know then that the bullet that would pass through the perp would be caught in the oposing wall and not go outside my home- great back stop.:supergrin:

you are correct.why wait if you can shoot the intruder while he is trying to open your bedroom door.

thegriz18
12-20-2009, 19:48
ID your target first????

j-glock22
12-20-2009, 20:21
I don't think there is a legal issue with shooting an INTRUDER INSIDE your house banging to get inside your BEDROOM door. However, you don't know exactly where behind the door he is right? Seems to make more sense for you (and your spouse) to take defensive cover, and be ready for the door to smash open, hopefully you made the 911 call.... BTW, isn't one of the 4 rules to "be sure of your target" I wanna know what I'm gonna hit. I'm gonna hear someone smashing into my home in the first place and be ready before he finds his way upstairs. My daughter's room is accross from mine, I will not be hiding behind my bedroom door.

JBP55
12-20-2009, 20:58
If you are sleeping then you are awaken by an intruder banging the door of your room,can the .40 180gr federal hst or 147 gr hst penetrate my wooden door which is 1 1/4 inch thick? If not, then I will just take defensive position then wait for him to open my door then after that i will start shooting him.your opinions are welcome.

The ammo. listed will go through the door. Consult an Attorney that knows the gun laws in your state for Legal advise.

IndyGunFreak
12-21-2009, 05:50
ID your target first????

Bingo... No way I'd ever shoot through a wooden door.

IGF

glocksterr
12-21-2009, 06:07
a lot of good points made in this post.

i will add NC law states you can prevent them from entering you castle, once inside you have a duty to retreat and/or take cover.

if your behind a closed door i dont think its "immediate threat" unless maybe your scared they will shoot through the door.

happyguy
12-21-2009, 18:16
Shooting someone banging on your door, through the door will land you a felony and prison time. No immenint reasonable fear from a person on the other side of a closed door.

Depends on what state you are in, the totality of the facts, and who's on the grand jury.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Gunnut 45/454
12-21-2009, 21:38
thegriz18
Target is ID'd as inturder-a violent one at that! Sorry no futher ID required -he's dead!:supergrin: Dead ones don't testify!:rofl: To clearify I'm just shooting to "stop the threat" !!Wink wink-not!

unit1069
12-22-2009, 19:34
i will add NC law states you can prevent them from entering you castle, once inside you have a duty to retreat and/or take cover.

if your behind a closed door i dont think its "immediate threat" unless maybe your scared they will shoot through the door.

This seems to contradict the NC law previously posted:

(b) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence does not have a duty to retreat from an intruder in the circumstances described in this section.

You can shoot to kill to prevent an unlawful entry into the home; you can shoot to kill to prevent the intruder who you reasonably believe intends to kill or "seriously injure" anyone in the home. And you can shoot to kill to prevent an intruder from committing any other felony as a result of unlawfully entering the home. At least that's the way I read the NC law.

I do believe that in the past twenty years the law in most states has made it harder for criminals and tort lawyers to victimize innocent people.

Just looking at the way these laws read the victim has any number of reasonable justifications for using deadly force against criminals trying to break into homes and/or preventing them from committing additional crimes once unlawful entry has been gained. I mean, what jury outside Malibu or Hollywood could be persuaded that the victim was a mindreader who knew exactly what criminal actions the perp intended to commit? Just the criminal act of trying to break into a private residence permits the homeowner to use deadly force.

glocksterr
12-22-2009, 20:23
This seems to contradict the NC law previously posted:






not posted by me.

:dunno:

vafish
12-23-2009, 06:50
you are correct.why wait if you can shoot the intruder while he is trying to open your bedroom door.


ID your target first????


Renceri,

How are you going to feel and how do you think the CA courts will treat you when the person pounding on your bedroom door turns out to be a fireman or neighbor that has entered your burning home to wake you up and rescue you?

Shooting at an unidentified target through a door is a bad idea.

thegriz18 is correct, you need to identify your target before you shoot at it. Things are not always as they seem at first and you can't recall a bullet after you have pulled the trigger. You need to be very sure of the situation before you pull the trigger.

I had someone trying to break into my house late one night. Had I fired a gun through the door I would have killed my neighbor who had been out drinking with his buddies, they dropped him off at the wrong house. (our 2 houses looked identical from the outside and were 2 doors down from each other).

Brucev
12-23-2009, 07:49
One must always be sure of ones target before a round is fired. Regardless of what might be the circumstances, once the round(s) is/or fired, you cannot put them back in the gun. You have simply got to be sure of your target. Allow me to illustrate.

While in high school, a classmate was at home on a Saturday morning with his two younger siblings. A man tried to break into the house through the den door. This young man took his deer rifle and shot through the door killing the man. From any reasonable perspective, he did the right thing. Nevertheless, the consequences for him and his family were extreme. The cost to his parents of dealing with the legal ramifications were significant.

Many years ago my wife and I lived in the parsonage directly across the street from the sanctuary of the church were I served as pastor. Late one night I saw a light moving from the front of the sanctuary back toward the office and fellowship hall. I dressed quickly, grabbed a revolver and flashlight and headed over to investigate. I came upon a young man who had entered the building to use the bathroom. He was mildly mentally disabled. He regularly attended the church and was well known to me. The look on his face when I put that flashlight on him was remarkable. I don't think he ever saw the revolver. I put it back in my pocket and locked the door after he left.

Only four years later I was driving down a state highway when a deputy sheriff stopped me and said, "You go home!" He then took off at speed. I got home to find everything apparently in order. However, the laundry was in the basket in the backyard and my wife and baby were no where to be found. As I walked through the house I found the door closed to the kitchen... the hall and the bedroom. My wife, who was carrying our second child, was reclining on the bed reading a book. Our firstborn was peacefully asleep on the bed beside. On her other side was my shotgun, loaded and ready to go. She explained that law enforcement authorities were searching the woods behind the house for a man who had beaten a local pastor to death in his study. She informed me that if he had come in the house and tried to get into the bedroom she was going to shoot through the door. She said she figured I would tell her I was in the house. That afternoon she and I developed our first plan about what to do in the event of a criminal entry into our home. She is now very capable with our G-22. And she also understands that she really needs to know who is on the other side of the door before she opens fire.

In a SD/HD incident, local ordinances and laws are not uniform from one locality, county or state to another. But one rule always applies... "Be certain of your target before you fire your weapon." Sincerely. Brucev.

unit1069
12-23-2009, 20:49
Dan Rather Reports on cable late last night devoted the entire show to the Castle Doctrine.

Dan did his best to muddy the water in order to make the unsuspecting think an armed citizenry is a bad thing. But we know Dan Rather, right?

Dan started out with the police recording of Joe Horn's call to 911, where the dispatcher repeatedly told Horn to stay inside and not leave his house to confront the two illegal alien criminals looting his neighbor's home.

Later on poor old Dan couldn't seem to understand the difference between one business owner shooting and killing a robber during the commission of the crime and another business owner (later charged) who ran outside to gun down the robber who had fled the store.

I will admit there were some pleasant surprises when Dan allowed the Florida woman who got the national CCW laws rolling to make some necessary points and when he featured a beautiful young black woman arming herself and learning to shoot in crime-ridden Jackson, Miss.

I wonder if Dan Rather is trying to make amends for his decades of Leftist blithering propaganda by giving common sense a few minutes of air time?

Evela
12-23-2009, 21:42
What i mean is he is already inside your house and you are inside one of your rooms that is locked but he is banging and trying to open your room in which you are sleeping.

It's the same answer whether he/she is outside or inside your home (unless you live in a Castle doctrine state). Until or unless you fear for you life - reasonably - you don't fire. How do you know it's the BG trying to get in? To shoot through a door is is well... Risky and premature.

duckintheface
12-24-2009, 07:42
there's two types of threats involved here. One is sufficient to prevent legal action (civil AND criminal) and that standard is different in states with a 'stand your ground' law.

The 2nd standard is REALLY in fear of your life, armed assailant and no expectation of police response inside the critical time frame..and you REALLY need to use deadly force to survive the experience. This doesn't necessarily play well in court, so how you tell it, and how good your lawyer is, are both relevant TO THE COURT CASE. Not to your need for armed response, cause YOU make that call. AFTER you've made that judgment call, a lawyer to clean up the mess is highly appropriate. Know one, have his business card on you, and have a retainer already paid. HAVE A LAWYER, and TELL them you do, and ask for medical treatment and legal advice. MAKE NO STATEMENT! Your lawyer will do that, AFTER you've had an examination (for shock/trauma/grief) and AFTER you've made a statement to HIM (or her), which serves as grounds to limit interviews/interrrogation..Having a lawyer on tap is your first after-incident requirement, and DO have that lawyer with you during depositions.

No exceptions. And no rules on excluding lawyers if they're YOUR lawyers, otherwise they're not permitted. Specifically it's ok to have TRAVELING lawyers, but statements of fact are verifiably critical to your future and it's important to have the facts available. Just YOU don't stand responsible for the accuracy of said facts, that's the lawyers job.

That's very good advice.

cowboy1964
02-02-2010, 21:40
After one unsettling night in a remote cabin I decided I needed a serious handgun instead of the pocket .380ACP I then owned. I decided on .357sig after putting a bit of study into the matter.

Glad you dumped the mouse caliber but a shotgun woulda been better than any handgun.

Handguns are for fighting your way to the long gun.

unit1069
02-02-2010, 21:52
Glad you dumped the mouse caliber but a shotgun woulda been better than any handgun.

For shooting through doors?