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frank_drebin
12-22-2009, 00:20
I was in my local gun shop today looking at holsters for my G33. The elderly man that runs the shop asked me what I carried and I told him it was a Glock 33. He said "If you don't mind me giving you a little advice, get a 40S&W barrel for it and lose the 357sig barrel". At first I took it as a basic "my caliber is better than your caliber" comment and just kind of ignored it. He then proceeded to tell me that he shot someone in the store last year with a Glock 32 in 357 sig with 125gr Gold Dots. That got my attention real quick. He said that the round went in the man's chest on the right and exited his lower back without any expansion. He said that in his opinion it was "travelling too fast and didn't have time to expand". That statement didn't make sense to me since that is what the 357sig is supposed to do, travel fast. The man that was shot survived and he stated that it was a very close in shot (around 7 feet). After I left the shop I called an LEO friend in the city and asked him about the incident. He recounted the story (which is a whole different post for sometime) and said the same thing in regards to the 357 sig. He said that the 125gr Gold Dot 357 sig round was a full through and through and that it never expanded based on the exit wound. His theory was that the shot was very close in and the round was travelling at max muzzle velocity when it hit. It struck no bones. The man that was shot was leaning over at an angle when struck.

Now, based on this I am questioning what may have happened and whether or not my carry ammo is better for expansion under similar circumstances. I carry 147gr Hornady XTP in my G33.

Any thoughts on this?

Glock-it-to-me
12-22-2009, 00:48
Speer Gold Dots on ballistic gel:


http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg





http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/rel.357.factory.htm
Here is a non-exclusive chart showing several 357 Sig Factory Rounds taken from magazines as listed in the Acknowledgements Section at the end of the “Why the 357 SIG is Catching On” article: <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 437.25pt; mso-cellspacing: 0in; mso-padding-alt: 2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt" class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=583><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Cartridge


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frank_drebin
12-22-2009, 00:59
Yet this didn't seem to happen.....
I researched the 357sig cartridge extensively when I was choosing my Carry gun. I saw the charts, media tests, etc... That's why I am asking the question now. What happened here?

Mrs_Esterhouse
12-22-2009, 01:39
I think the old man's theory on 'too much speed' is completely wrong. From what I've seen in ballistic tests, too much speed tends to overexpand bullets to the point of fragmentation. It's easy to frag a bullet out of a 9x25dillon; most are not engineered for that speed.

You be the judge as to what's best:

http://stevespages.com/page8f357sig.html

IndyGunFreak
12-22-2009, 01:48
Yet this didn't seem to happen.....
I researched the 357sig cartridge extensively when I was choosing my Carry gun. I saw the charts, media tests, etc... That's why I am asking the question now. What happened here?

It doesn't really matter about the guys experience. You can find similar stories with almost any JHP in any caliber. If you like the .357sig, carry it. Don't worry about someone elses experience with it.

IGF

Clem Eastwood
12-22-2009, 02:01
the question is what platform was he shooting it out of? TX DPS with their SIG P226s have had no problem with it. if he was shooting it out of a short barrel it is vary likely it didnt get into its velocity window, which would explain why it didnt expand. Dallas PD shoot RA9T as their standard load in their issued P226 9mms, but if the officer buys their own p226 in .357 SIG they are issued RA357SIGT. They havent had a problem with their loads expanding either.

PersonOfInterest
12-22-2009, 03:08
Ive shot dead in excess of 40 to 50 animals with the 357sig so far using gold dots and 124gn XTP's made by hornady - ive had quite a few exit bodies but they all left a nice hole - minumum hole was about 2" biggest was just over 3" - ive shot them at 15 yards, 50 yards and 70 yards.
Minumum weight of animals was about 130lbs all the way upto 180lbs.

Not doubting his story - but what does it mean? did it stop the attack?
i can tell you something about slow and heavy - about 90% of animals ive shot with say 230gn .45 JHP slugs had exit holes that matched the size of the projectile - only ever had a few that got some expansion (i use that term loosely) i can also atest to the friend i knew who was shot dead with a .45 230gn SXT - his exit wounds where .45cal and he lived for 2 minutes after being shot and was NOT incapacitated.

Fast projectiles like the 125gn expand most of the time - seen it in living things more times than i can remember - what happened in the case your referring to is pretty uncommon - no big deal - but fact is in slow moving heavy projectiles its the norm.

happyguy
12-22-2009, 03:17
It happens with every caliber. Not every individual bullet will expand. It has always been this way and probably will continue for the foreseeable future.

Keep shooting until the threat is gone. If you are using good ammo some of them will expand and if you hit something vital it probably won't matter much.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

frank_drebin
12-22-2009, 06:00
I think the old man's theory on 'too much speed' is completely wrong. From what I've seen in ballistic tests, too much speed tends to overexpand bullets to the point of fragmentation. It's easy to frag a bullet out of a 9x25dillon; most are not engineered for that speed.

You be the judge as to what's best:

http://stevespages.com/page8f357sig.html

Great link, thanks. I tend to agree that this round is probably much more sensitive to underexpansion due to low velocity since the bullets were designed to hit in the 1200-1300fps range.

the question is what platform was he shooting it out of?

It was a Glock 32 I believe.


Ive shot dead in excess of 40 to 50 animals with the 357sig so far using gold dots and 124gn XTP's made by hornady - ive had quite a few exit bodies but they all left a nice hole - minumum hole was about 2" biggest was just over 3" - ive shot them at 15 yards, 50 yards and 70 yards.
Minumum weight of animals was about 130lbs all the way upto 180lbs.

Not doubting his story - but what does it mean? did it stop the attack?
i can tell you something about slow and heavy - about 90% of animals ive shot with say 230gn .45 JHP slugs had exit holes that matched the size of the projectile - only ever had a few that got some expansion (i use that term loosely) i can also atest to the friend i knew who was shot dead with a .45 230gn SXT - his exit wounds where .45cal and he lived for 2 minutes after being shot and was NOT incapacitated.

Fast projectiles like the 125gn expand most of the time - seen it in living things more times than i can remember - what happened in the case your referring to is pretty uncommon - no big deal - but fact is in slow moving heavy projectiles its the norm.

It definitely stopped the attack. The round traveled quite a long ways through the body before exiting. My biggest concern is with over-penetration itself and the increased possibility of collateral damage. I am wondering if the powrball round might bot be worth a 2nd look for the short barrel of my G33. I went heavy with 147gr but I wonder if lighter would be better out of the compact G33 I am carrying.

mclaren
12-22-2009, 06:38
The officer you spoke to said that based on the exit wound the bullet never expanded. Was a projectile ever recovered? I have expanded a 125 GD from my G33. It's not quite as dramatic as the picture above. I carry 124 XTP's but trust them equally with the GD. If the wound channel was so long maybe there was a 2 liter shaped void of bloody mush half way between the entry and exit. Maybe it was slowed enough by the time it came out that it didn't bring a softball of flesh with it. Either way, expanded or not the guy was in a world of hurt and is probably relieving himself In a bag for the rest of his life.

Another good reason to shoot until the threat stops. If the bullet failed to perform why didn't he keep crankin on the G32? Clearly the bullet did the job so why is he *****ing about it. Maybe if a whole mag full failed to slow him down I would go with a 40 cal. But until a human survives that many Gold Dots I will continue to rock my G33 every day, confidently

easyg
12-22-2009, 09:53
Even if it didn't expand, so what?

A few things are clear:

1) The round was effective in that it stopped the target.

2) He didn't kill the target. That means that he didn't hit any major organs or vessels (brain, heart, aorta, etc...).
And that means that shot placement was less than ideal from an "immediate stop" perspective.

3) Since he didn't hit anything vital, we must ask ourselves: would an extra .25" in diameter really made much difference?




A word on over-penetration:

Of course nobody wants a bullet to exit a target and continue on and harm an innocent bystander.

With that being said....

Which is better:

1) The bullet enters the target's sternum, pierces the sternum, enters the heart and stops somewhere inside the heart muscle itself.

2) The bullet enters the target's sternum, pierces the sternum, enters the heart, passes completely through the heart muscle and exits the heart, passes completely through the thoracic spine (destroying a vertebral body and damaging the spinal cord), and then exits the target's body, and imbeds about 1" in to the room wall.

DRT
12-22-2009, 10:05
Was the prep wearing heavy clothing? If so, it's likely the ammo (in this case a shallow cavity, bonded hollowpoint) that was the problem, not the caliber.

Brucev
12-22-2009, 10:05
I have seen a good many large animals (cows, etc.) slaughtered for processing at a local abattoir. I have shot a lot of small and medium game. I have seen a lot of other people shoot small and medium game. Some have been individuals who had much experience in recreational and even competitive shooting. Many first time hunters and even experienced hunters can do odd things when faced with killing a animal, especially when that animal is very close. Subsequent to shooting an animal, people often do odd things, i.e., talking excitedly, forgetting to make their firearm safe, etc.

The gentleman in the shop who had to use a weapon to defend himself against a criminal assailant. I have not ever had to use and hope I never have to use a weapon in a SD incident. This man faced what no man ever wants to face. In the course of running his business, he may for many years have handled a variety of firearms. This does not mean that he would necessarily have had any experience in dealing with a SD incident. Perhaps he did not continue to fire because the criminal ceased to be a threat. That in itself would show remarkable self-control and good judgment.

As regards the lack of expansion, it would be interesting to know what was the bullet weight and manufacturer of the round he fired. Just because a round is loaded with a JHP bullet is no guarantee that that will expand. If he was using some sort of basic JHP load, it may simply be that the lack of expansion was due to a bullet design that was not very well thought out.

triggerjerk
12-22-2009, 10:07
i can tell you something about slow and heavy - about 90% of animals ive shot with say 230gn .45 JHP slugs had exit holes that matched the size of the projectile - only ever had a few that got some expansion (i use that term loosely) i can also atest to the friend i knew who was shot dead with a .45 230gn SXT - his exit wounds where .45cal and he lived for 2 minutes after being shot and was NOT incapacitated.


Sorry to hear about your friend!
Do you mind me asking where the round struck?

frank_drebin
12-22-2009, 13:06
The gentleman in the shop who had to use a weapon to defend himself against a criminal assailant. I have not ever had to use and hope I never have to use a weapon in a SD incident. This man faced what no man ever wants to face. In the course of running his business, he may for many years have handled a variety of firearms. This does not mean that he would necessarily have had any experience in dealing with a SD incident. Perhaps he did not continue to fire because the criminal ceased to be a threat. That in itself would show remarkable self-control and good judgment.

Unfortunately, this was not a good shoot and the the man that was shot is a "victim" rather than an assailant. The story itself is actually more bizarre than the round not expanding.

skip a stone
12-22-2009, 17:54
Unfortunately, this was not a good shoot and the the man that was shot is a "victim" rather than an assailant. The story itself is actually more bizarre than the round not expanding.

I think with just the few responses you have got here is a testament to the reality of ballistics. Marksmanship is so very key in any situation, especially when using 9mm and above in terms of firepower. I have heard of thousands (read and word of mouth) of accounts of bullets doing the very very unexpected in the most ideal circumstances.

There are just to many variables when you realize what a small piece of lead and copper can do flying at variable speeds when it hits something like a body that is made up of different densities of matter at different places depending on angles and deflections of angles after the enitial first hit. It can get rediculous in terms of probabilities and chance. When friends of mine were going through the police academy they were given many real life situations involving officer involved shootings. One (I think he was a Highway Patrolman) law enforcement officer was shot in the rist with a .25 caliber round it deflected off the curved part of one of his wrist bones and traveled up his arm (no doubt being held inside by his muscleature and tendons) again deflecting off his upper arm bone and bouncing at a downward angle through his torso and ending up in his heart. That killed him in a few seconds.

Minor calibers are the worst in my opinion to get hit with, because the unpredictable nature of the size and speed. Major calibers can do the same in given circumstances, but because of the more direct path they offer, with good marksmanship one can cut back on the "improbability factor" by aiming and hitting on or near vital organs with fatal results. Just something to ponder I guess, and a reminder to TRAIN, TRAIN, PRACTICE, AND PRACTICE SOME MORE!!!!

unit1069
12-22-2009, 18:52
One incident of a round that did not expand is not an acceptable group from which to draw any conclusions.

unit1069
12-22-2009, 18:53
Unfortunately, this was not a good shoot and the the man that was shot is a "victim" rather than an assailant. The story itself is actually more bizarre than the round not expanding.

Do you have a link to the full story or can you tell us about it?

JBP55
12-22-2009, 19:02
One incident of a round that did not expand is not an acceptable group from which to draw any conclusions.

Best answer.

frank_drebin
12-22-2009, 19:39
One incident of a round that did not expand is not an acceptable group from which to draw any conclusions.

I agree with this statement in full. However, The fact is most people will never fire a shot in a defensive situation. If they do the single incident will most likely be the lone encounter they will have. If we train for the "one time" shouldn't we make sure we are carrying the best ammo for the firearm we have chosen? If a given 357 sig round in a gun very similar to the one I carry failed to perform as expected the one time the owner felt as if he needed it then wouldn't I want to find the one that will perform best or at least have the best chance of performing as designed? I want a round that will stop the attack without endangering those behind the assailant. If I have chosen poorly I will correct that mistake no matter what it takes.

glocksterr
12-22-2009, 20:18
Was the prep wearing heavy clothing? If so, it's likely the ammo (in this case a shallow cavity, bonded hollowpoint) that was the problem, not the caliber.


LoL!




One incident of a round that did not expand is not an acceptable group from which to draw any conclusions.

LMAO!

PersonOfInterest
12-22-2009, 20:25
Sorry to hear about your friend!
Do you mind me asking where the round struck?
Long time ago now
i was questioned for about 6 hours by 2 detectives and asked a whole heep of questions and was intially told i was the prime suspect - i was never charged.
I knew the guy who shot him and he spent 10 years inside for man slaughter - they couldnt get murder on him, he hit him twice in the chest at about 7 feet, both rounds (from the photos i saw of him) he was hit either side of the spine - didnt look like theyd hit that close to the heart - after he was shot he paced around for about 90 seconds (which was backed up by the coroner from the blood loss etc and also from the testimony from the guy who pulled the trigger) in that time he put his hand through a wall and yelled alot before he sat down cryed and curled up into a ball - then died.
Anyway manslaughter charge was brought about by the fact he failed to get medical assistance and let him die and also due to the fact he didnt shoot him again hence a murder charge wouldnt stick, since that and the fact ive shot alot of animals with the .45 which also failed to expand and lead to slow incapacitation times i went back to better velocities - just my preference.

triggerjerk
12-22-2009, 20:45
Long time ago now
i was questioned for about 6 hours by 2 detectives and asked a whole heep of questions and was intially told i was the prime suspect - i was never charged.
I knew the guy who shot him and he spent 10 years inside for man slaughter - they couldnt get murder on him, he hit him twice in the chest at about 7 feet, both rounds (from the photos i saw of him) he was hit either side of the spine - didnt look like theyd hit that close to the heart - after he was shot he paced around for about 90 seconds (which was backed up by the coroner from the blood loss etc and also from the testimony from the guy who pulled the trigger) in that time he put his hand through a wall and yelled alot before he sat down cryed and curled up into a ball - then died.
Anyway manslaughter charge was brought about by the fact he failed to get medical assistance and let him die and also due to the fact he didnt shoot him again hence a murder charge wouldnt stick, since that and the fact ive shot alot of animals with the .45 which also failed to expand and lead to slow incapacitation times i went back to better velocities - just my preference.

Wow. Very interesting but sad.

IndyGunFreak
12-22-2009, 22:59
LMAO!

Perhaps you could elaborate? You can find failures in any caliber out there. I'm not a .357sig fan by any stretch, but this can happen to any caliber, so I'm not sure what you find so funny.

IGF

PersonOfInterest
12-23-2009, 01:35
Wow. Very interesting but sad.
he had it coming - drugs will do that to you, he wasnt on anything at the time keep in mind but they had still messed up his brain.
I saw him on the slab too, we knew each other from the age of 5 but this all happened 11 years ago now.
Anyway i like the 357sig :) getting back to the thread.

fredj338
12-23-2009, 03:05
He said that in his opinion it was "travelling too fast and didn't have time to expand".
I've heard this from hunters as well, just a nieve statement by someone that knows little about terminal balistics. What makes a bullet expand is the HP & high vel strk=iking a semi fluid target. It either expands, doesn't or fragments. ANy one of those things can happen on any given shot regardless of caliber or vel. If the bullet was going too fast it might fragment, but it is NOT possible for the bullet to not have time to expand if designed properly. I've gotten full expansion in as little as 4-5" of penetration. Look at any bal.gel. shot & you see most bullets expand in the first 6". If the bullet was going too fast, it would show expansion aling the entire bullet path & that is just not what happens. Have faith in your 357sig. It is certainly a stopper w/ well place rounds.

PersonOfInterest
12-23-2009, 04:03
By that rationale the 357magnum was a bad stopper using the 125gn SJHP - end of the day its quite similair to the 357sig and it had a great reputation in LE circles.
It had a mid weight projectile and speed on its side same as the sig does, the 357mag using a 125gn JHP (factory load or handload) was a favourite of mine for shooting animals - it also had the advantage of long range due to its fixed barrel it became a bench mark for me for what a pistol round should do - after that i tryed to make my 9mm handloads as close as i could, nowdays my 357sig is doing close to what the magnum did for me in a lighter gun with a higher capacity (still love the wheel gun though)
Bottom line the 357sig is a great round - ok the gun shop guy had a bad experience but its rare for the sig to do what it did - go to something slow and heavy and theres a pretty good chance what happened to him will happen - fact is its very common.

glocksterr
12-23-2009, 05:14
Perhaps you could elaborate? You can find failures in any caliber out there. I'm not a .357sig fan by any stretch, but this can happen to any caliber, so I'm not sure what you find so funny.

IGF

sure i can elaborate. the man who is obviously a GD user is in denial and claims one incident means nothing yet the last few months the pages of CC are littered with stories of un/under expanded GD's.


sorry, fanboys crack me up.
LMAO!

:rofl:

IndyGunFreak
12-23-2009, 08:10
sure i can elaborate. the man who is obviously a GD user is in denial and claims one incident means nothing yet the last few months the pages of CC are littered with stories of un/under expanded GD's.


sorry, fanboys crack me up.
LMAO!

:rofl:

You can probably find just as many reports of the GD doing just as well, and cases where something else failed.. I still don't see your point. Its not about being a "fanboy" or some sort of brand loyalty.. its common sense. Every round out there has failed, and will fail again.

I guess I still don't see your point, as what he said was pretty much dead on correct.. one failure doesn't mean there's a serious problem.. its just a crapshoot most of the time...

IGF

glocksterr
12-23-2009, 08:18
You can probably find just as many reports of the GD doing just as well, and cases where something else failed.. I still don't see your point. Its not about being a "fanboy" or some sort of brand loyalty.. its common sense. Every round out there has failed, and will fail again.

I guess I still don't see your point, as what he said was pretty much dead on correct.. one failure doesn't mean there's a serious problem.. its just a crapshoot most of the time...

IGF



i dont think you get the point. i understand they all fail!

the OP that i quoted is in complete disagreement with what you state yet you claim he has it dead on???

:music:



unless i missed something hes stating one instance of failure does not mean your likely to see more, you point being failure is common place.

frank_drebin
12-23-2009, 08:19
So, after all of the great comments and information posted here, I have a final question. Which round would MOST LIKELY expand properly out of a Glock 33 subcompact?



Hornady 147gr XTP
Hornady 124gr XTP
Corbon 100gr PowRBall (rated at 1600fps)
Corbon 125gr DPX
Speer 125gr Gold Dots

frank_drebin
12-23-2009, 08:22
Also, all the studies in the world mean little if the bullet fails to work as designed when it is needed most. In Grad school I listened to professors that have never owned, operated nor succeeded in business tell executives and entrepreneurs sitting in the class how to do it right. I put more stock in my fellow students than I did in the professors.

Brucev
12-23-2009, 09:06
"By that rationale the 357magnum was a bad stopper using the 125gn SJHP - end of the day its quite similair to the 357sig and it had a great reputation in LE circles."

One thing to consider is that the .357 Magnum using a 125 gr. SJHP did not require a bullet profile predicated upon reliable feeding in any semi-automatic pistol. There was no concern about the size of the hollow point or having jacket material to protect the core at the mouth of the hollow point and thus help insure reliable feeding. It required only a SJHP profile that could be produced with expansion/penetration in mind. The enviable record of the .357 Magnum with 125 gr. JHP ammo such as the Remington pedal point, etc. reflected the advantages of a revolver in both chambering and bullet design. Sincerely. Brucev.

LEAD
12-23-2009, 09:16
So, after all of the great comments and information posted here, I have a final question. Which round would MOST LIKELY expand properly out of a Glock 33 subcompact?



Hornady 147gr XTP
Hornady 124gr XTP
Corbon 100gr PowRBall (rated at 1600fps)
Corbon 125gr DPX
Speer 125gr Gold Dots


I would think the corbon DPX would expand best, then Gold Dots (get the version for short barrels if available). Powerball would probly expand well too, but Im baised against this round because of my personal beliefs on ideal weights for calibers.

DRT
12-23-2009, 09:57
So, after all of the great comments and information posted here, I have a final question. Which round would MOST LIKELY expand properly out of a Glock 33 subcompact?



Hornady 147gr XTP
Hornady 124gr XTP
Corbon 100gr PowRBall (rated at 1600fps)
Corbon 125gr DPX
Speer 125gr Gold Dots


Of the loads listed, probably DPX. Just load it up with HSTs or Ranger Tseries and forget about it.

IndyGunFreak
12-23-2009, 11:07
unless i missed something hes stating one instance of failure does not mean your likely to see more, you point being failure is common place.

I took it to mean that because a round fails 1x, that doesn't mean its going to fail every time you shoot it...

Maybe thats our issue, we've interpreted his answer differently.. :)

IGF

chewybaca67
12-23-2009, 12:16
Bullets, of any caliber, are funny in that way. They haven't read the latest ballistic data and continue to behave in what ever way they want at times.

fredj338
12-23-2009, 12:51
So, after all of the great comments and information posted here, I have a final question. Which round would MOST LIKELY expand properly out of a Glock 33 subcompact?



Hornady 147gr XTP
Hornady 124gr XTP
Corbon 100gr PowRBall (rated at 1600fps)
Corbon 125gr DPX
Speer 125gr Gold Dots

Lighter, high speed JHP are more likely to expand in tissue, so any of the 124-125grJHP would be prefered over the 147grXTP IMO. Again, the idaea a JHP can be going too fast to expand is laughable to anyone that has shot enough things w/ JHP to know.

PghJim
12-23-2009, 18:15
So, after all of the great comments and information posted here, I have a final question. Which round would MOST LIKELY expand properly out of a Glock 33 subcompact?


Hornady 147gr XTP
Hornady 124gr XTP
Corbon 100gr PowRBall (rated at 1600fps)
Corbon 125gr DPX
Speer 125gr Gold Dots

You do not list it, but I like Corbon 125 JHP in my G33. On the subject of GD's Speer has lowered the velocity to 1,350 fps for all rounds, even the LE. That would be less out of a G33. I have found at that velocity, performace can be poor, depending on clothing. I have run a lot of test with various clothing and gallon jugs of water, and the one that always performed was Corbon 125 JHP. The DPX expands all of the time, but not by much, but does not seem to pack a punch. I have found GD's with velocities around 1,425 seem to work all of the time without over penatration, but try to find them now. Pro Load used to make them.

unit1069
12-23-2009, 20:25
One incident of a round that did not expand is not an acceptable group from which to draw any conclusions. (unit1069)

LMAO!

sure i can elaborate. the man who is obviously a GD user is in denial and claims one incident means nothing yet the last few months the pages of CC are littered with stories of un/under expanded GD's.


sorry, fanboys crack me up.
LMAO!

:rofl:

Yes, I do have Double Tap Gold Dot ammo for my G-32, but when carrying I currently have it loaded with 125-grain HST. Honestly, I feel confident either round is sufficient for self-defense. And actually, I'm a regular reader on Glock Talk and I'm not aware of the prevalence of Gold Dot failures being a common occurrence compared to other premium JHP rounds. Do you have links so we can see what leads you to make your allegation about Gold Dot?

i dont think you get the point. i understand they all fail!

the OP that i quoted is in complete disagreement with what you state yet you claim he has it dead on???

No, I'm not in disagreement with what the other GT member said. How can you think I do?

unless i missed something hes stating one instance of failure does not mean your likely to see more, you point being failure is common place.

So, you have missed the point! Not only my point which others have not missed and made themselves, but your own point in admitting you understand all rounds fail.

According to your own logic one failure is enough to extrapolate that failure of that round can be considered a common event, because when I made the point that one instance doesn't prove anything your dismissal of my comment can only mean you think otherwise.

The valid point some of us have made is that in order to arrive at a reasonable conclusion there must be a sufficient number of random examples from which to draw.

Tell us which round you prefer carrying that you expect will fail to expand (according your own logic). If you claim Gold Dots are unreliable please give us something more to go on than hearsay (or personal prejudice). Better yet, tell us the round you forgot about that never fails to expand.

voyager4520
12-23-2009, 20:34
Was the prep wearing heavy clothing? If so, it's likely the ammo (in this case a shallow cavity, bonded hollowpoint) that was the problem, not the caliber.

This is what I'm thinking. Gold Dots don't like heavy clothing.

glocksterr
12-23-2009, 20:54
According to your own logic one failure is enough to extrapolate .


you lost me right there.

:upeyes:

Alaskapopo
12-23-2009, 21:03
Bullets are not going to fast to expand. What happens is in real life people are not consistent blobs of gelatine. Sometimes you will not get expansion. No big deal. Shoot the threat until he is down. Placement is what matters.
Pat

unit1069
12-23-2009, 21:04
you lost me right there.

:upeyes:

I'm not surprised.

Alaskapopo
12-23-2009, 21:06
"By that rationale the 357magnum was a bad stopper using the 125gn SJHP - end of the day its quite similair to the 357sig and it had a great reputation in LE circles."

One thing to consider is that the .357 Magnum using a 125 gr. SJHP did not require a bullet profile predicated upon reliable feeding in any semi-automatic pistol. There was no concern about the size of the hollow point or having jacket material to protect the core at the mouth of the hollow point and thus help insure reliable feeding. It required only a SJHP profile that could be produced with expansion/penetration in mind. The enviable record of the .357 Magnum with 125 gr. JHP ammo such as the Remington pedal point, etc. reflected the advantages of a revolver in both chambering and bullet design. Sincerely. Brucev.

The reason the 357 mag with 125 grain bullets had a good reputation was because it was one of the only JHP bullets of the era that would expand in actual shootings. Nearly all of the early 9mm and 45 jhp's would not expand at all. Back then it took 357 mag ballistics to make JHP's work. That is not the case today.
Pat

PersonOfInterest
12-24-2009, 01:12
"By that rationale the 357magnum was a bad stopper using the 125gn SJHP - end of the day its quite similair to the 357sig and it had a great reputation in LE circles."

One thing to consider is that the .357 Magnum using a 125 gr. SJHP did not require a bullet profile predicated upon reliable feeding in any semi-automatic pistol. There was no concern about the size of the hollow point or having jacket material to protect the core at the mouth of the hollow point and thus help insure reliable feeding. It required only a SJHP profile that could be produced with expansion/penetration in mind. The enviable record of the .357 Magnum with 125 gr. JHP ammo such as the Remington pedal point, etc. reflected the advantages of a revolver in both chambering and bullet design. Sincerely. Brucev.

I hear what your saying there but - something i noticed when shooting animals with the 357magnum (well over 100) didnt seem to matter what i was using - 125gn XTP handloaded or over the counter SJHP 125gn (winchester/pmc/Remington/Federal) they would all make the same mess - never had one fail to expand, in cases where they would go through and through i saw exit wounds i could almost fit my hand into however most of the time they would remain inside.

Only ever where i saw JHP fail to expand where in the case where the projectile is moving slow ie 147gn 9mm or 230gn .45 which mostly performed like an FMJ - do i think these are bad choices? no but in my experiences of killing things faster for me has always worked better.

PersonOfInterest
12-24-2009, 01:18
So, after all of the great comments and information posted here, I have a final question. Which round would MOST LIKELY expand properly out of a Glock 33 subcompact?



Hornady 147gr XTP
Hornady 124gr XTP
Corbon 100gr PowRBall (rated at 1600fps)
Corbon 125gr DPX
Speer 125gr Gold Dots


Dosent Speer make a short barrelled gold dot?
ive found the 124gn XTP for expand very nicely although i was using a 31 but then again so did my handloaded gold dots.
I wouldnt worry - honestly your looking at this too much, bottom line was it stopped the attack so that should be enough - dont listen to the 'its going too fast to expand' crap its simply false end of story.
Stick with shooting fast and accurately - thats what will keep you alive - everything else will work itself out.
Another thought to get more speed - put a 32 barrel in your 33.

sigcalcatrant
12-24-2009, 03:11
the question is what platform was he shooting it out of? Uh,... the question is answered in the OP:

"He then proceeded to tell me that he shot someone in the store last year with a Glock 32 in 357 sig with 125gr Gold Dots"

glocksterr
12-24-2009, 07:14
I'm not surprised.

neither am i. my English may not be the best but my reading comprehension is right up there and i cant make heads or tails of your rantings.

:supergrin:

i do like your choice of loads.

unit1069
12-24-2009, 08:59
neither am i. my English may not be the best but my reading comprehension is right up there and i cant make heads or tails of your rantings.

We're still waiting for you to back up your allegation that the Gold Dot round is an unreliable bullet in terms of expansion.

Or do you not comprehend that either?

DRT
12-24-2009, 10:25
.....the pages of CC are littered with stories of un/under expanded GD's.

......

I've noticed a similar trend, particularly after shooting through heavy clothing.

glocksterr
12-24-2009, 14:42
We're still waiting for you to back up your allegation that the Gold Dot round is an unreliable bullet in terms of expansion.

Or do you not comprehend that either?

hmmm.


http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=186594&d=1260670385

Mrs_Esterhouse
12-24-2009, 16:08
http://stevespages.com/page8f9mmluger.html

390ish
12-24-2009, 16:45
the virginia state police have shot a pile of people with the 357 sig, believe they use gold dots. they also tend to keep shooting until everything is over.

Alaskapopo
12-24-2009, 16:52
We're still waiting for you to back up your allegation that the Gold Dot round is an unreliable bullet in terms of expansion.

Or do you not comprehend that either?

I will say the Gold Dot is more affected by heavy clothing than other competing designs like the HST.
Pat

fortyofforty
12-24-2009, 17:26
hmmm.


http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=186594&d=1260670385

This of course is a perfect illustration of the problem inherent in comparing final expanded sizes of bullets. The bullets in the photograph came to rest in those states. The bullets with seemingly smaller final diameters may actually have passed through a fully expanded stage before arriving at their final, smaller diameter. We don't really know from a snapshot of the final results without being able to observe the entire path of the bullet through the test medium. Just because the bullets stopped expanding in a state with seemingly giant, jagged, fully extended petals does not mean that it will perform better. In fact, a shooter might want a certain margin of safety in his bullets that would cause them to expand fully then start to collapse while still moving through a target, rather than lose all their energy while fully expanded. Just something to think about.

Also, we are often shown photographs of bullets that have one side of their petals pressed back against the stump, with trailing arms flowing to the side. These bullets almost certainly moved sideways through the medium and not straight on with the base towards the muzzle and hollowpoint towards the target, towards the end of their travel.

MTS532
12-24-2009, 17:57
they also tend to keep shooting until everything is over.

This.

I've carried 124 gr. and 147 gr. Federal Hydrashok in 9mm, 180 gr. S&W Speer Gold Dots in .40 S&W and 230 gr. Federal Hydrashok .45 ACP hollowpoint rounds as official duty ammo. With every caliber, we practice "fail to stop drills." There is no difference in training.

The fact that this bullet failed to expand should be expected, not anticipated.

Note the signature:

glocksterr
12-24-2009, 18:12
The bullets with seemingly smaller final diameters may actually have passed through a fully expanded stage before arriving at their final, smaller diameter. We don't really know from a snapshot of the final results without being able to observe the entire path of the bullet through the test medium.


not true, the bullet would look diff. if it over expanded and collapsed, that is if you have a good eye.


:whistling:

Mrs_Esterhouse
12-24-2009, 18:33
Does anyone know of any 'full power' ammo makers that don't use Gold Dots in their 357SIG lines?

*'full power' 357SIG would be defined as 125gr bullets loaded to 1450FPS.

The only full power choices I know of are Fiocci's 125gr XTP and CorBon's Sierra 115,125gr and 125gr Barnes DPX (XPB) bullets. The rest like Remington, Winchester, Hornady and Federal all under load their 357SIG by at least 100FPS compared to the competition.

SIGShooter
12-24-2009, 19:11
Any bullet can fail to expand.

That's why we train for failures to stop. Of course, just because the bullet didn't expand it doesn't mean that it didn't do its job.

The testing I have done has been on non-living/non-human targets.

All of the bullets expanded. All of the shots have been consistent.

Heck, Speer GDHP, factory loaded, clocked about 1450-1475 from my G31. I read a lot of people claiming that some manufacturers load their ammunition light. I don't know about that. I've had some really different experiences with ammunition.

Anyway, OP, I personally wouldn't change my carry ammunition because of this one failure. Hell, I wouldn't change my carry ammunition even if there were 50 failures. The Speer, 125 Gr. GDHP, .357 SIG is one of the best if not THE best loadings for this particular round. It doesn't get better than that.

SIGShooter
12-24-2009, 19:15
I will say the Gold Dot is more affected by heavy clothing than other competing designs like the HST.
Pat


I will say that the Gold Dot bullet gets the least amount of expansion in all of the tests I have ever done with it. This is without using any type of barrier of any sort.

9MM
.45 ACP
.357 SIG
40 S&W
.357 Mag

They penetrate deep but get nominal expansion. IMHO, that is due in part to it being a bonded bullet. It should be no worries though, penetration is key even more important with proper shot placement. Expansion never was an important subject with me.

Just my .02

Merry Christmas!

unit1069
12-24-2009, 19:56
Heck, Speer GDHP, factory loaded, clocked about 1450-1475 from my G31. I read a lot of people claiming that some manufacturers load their ammunition light. I don't know about that. I've had some really different experiences with ammunition.

Your results are supported by Mas Ayoob's:

Speer specifies 1,350 feet per second velocity, generating 506 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle. However, over a Chrony, we found the Speer load averaged slightly over 1,400 fps fired from the 4.5", polygon-rifled Glock 31 barrel. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_10_54/ai_n28027452/

(This article is just a bit more than a year old so I believe the information still holds)

Anyway, OP, I personally wouldn't change my carry ammunition because of this one failure. Hell, I wouldn't change my carry ammunition even if there were 50 failures. The Speer, 125 Gr. GDHP, .357 SIG is one of the best if not THE best loadings for this particular round. It doesn't get better than that.

There are a number of excellent self-defense JHP ammos available today. Whatever one's personal choice(s) it's ludicrous to claim the Gold Dot is an inferior choice.

No one can say the Speer Gold Dot 125-grain .357 Sig has not earned its place as the "most street-proven load" in its caliber, for law enforcement and private citizen self-defense needs. (Ayoob)

As previously stated, I have some Gold Dot loaded ammo even though I don't always carry it. I wouldn't lose a minute of sleep if I had to carry it exclusively. I hope the OP takes your advice, Sig.

Berto
12-25-2009, 00:53
Is there any certainty that this aforementioned bullet did not expand?
Was the bullet recovered?
Even expanded rounds often can leave a small exit hole, they sometimes turn sideways.

happyguy
12-25-2009, 07:14
not true, the bullet would look diff. if it over expanded and collapsed, that is if you have a good eye.


:whistling:

Different in what way?

Regards,
Happyguy :)

glocksterr
12-25-2009, 07:53
Different in what way?

Regards,
Happyguy :)

one will have the petals unopened and the ceter concealed, the other will have the center exposed with the petals folded over and crushed inward/broken off.

they may both be the same to a caliber when checking dia. but length will tell a diff. story.


:supergrin:

fortyofforty
12-25-2009, 14:21
one will have the petals unopened and the ceter concealed, the other will have the center exposed with the petals folded over and crushed inward/broken off.

they may both be the same to a caliber when checking dia. but length will tell a diff. story.


:supergrin:

I stand by my initial contention that it is impossible to tell exactly how a bullet performed while traveling through a medium by looking solely at the end result. At some point the petals must have expanded in order to have been peeled back. They did not transform from "bullet at rest" position to "petals peeled back against the stump" without at some point having expanded. And it has been my experience that bonded bullets have somewhat less expansion than unbonded bullets, but have better performance through barriers. Life’s a tradeoff, sometimes. The applicability of four layers of denim as part of a test protocol is another matter altogether.

Whaledriver
12-25-2009, 15:41
Let me sum this up clearly. Shots fired, threat stopped, end happy ending story. Now onto the next caliber war with pretty pictures of boolits fired into unrealistic conditions.

glocksterr
12-25-2009, 17:25
As previously stated, I have some Gold Dot loaded ammo even though I don't always carry it.


hee,hee,

maybe you will be carrying it a little less now.


:supergrin:

AK_Stick
12-25-2009, 17:36
I was in my local gun shop today looking at holsters for my G33. The elderly man that runs the shop asked me what I carried and I told him it was a Glock 33. He said "If you don't mind me giving you a little advice, get a 40S&W barrel for it and lose the 357sig barrel". At first I took it as a basic "my caliber is better than your caliber" comment and just kind of ignored it. He then proceeded to tell me that he shot someone in the store last year with a Glock 32 in 357 sig with 125gr Gold Dots. That got my attention real quick. He said that the round went in the man's chest on the right and exited his lower back without any expansion. He said that in his opinion it was "travelling too fast and didn't have time to expand". That statement didn't make sense to me since that is what the 357sig is supposed to do, travel fast. The man that was shot survived and he stated that it was a very close in shot (around 7 feet). After I left the shop I called an LEO friend in the city and asked him about the incident. He recounted the story (which is a whole different post for sometime) and said the same thing in regards to the 357 sig. He said that the 125gr Gold Dot 357 sig round was a full through and through and that it never expanded based on the exit wound. His theory was that the shot was very close in and the round was travelling at max muzzle velocity when it hit. It struck no bones. The man that was shot was leaning over at an angle when struck.

Now, based on this I am questioning what may have happened and whether or not my carry ammo is better for expansion under similar circumstances. I carry 147gr Hornady XTP in my G33.

Any thoughts on this?


did they recover the round?

Judging if a round expanded by the size of the entrance and exit hole, is not a very sure thing... flesh is very elastic. Its the reason bullet holes from a 9mm, and a 45 look alike when you use ball ammo.

Could also have been inhibited by clothing being worn.

Personally, I carry gold dots in my pistols. I'm not worried about them not working in the slightest.

glocksterr
12-25-2009, 17:40
Personally, I carry gold dots in my pistols. I'm not worried about them not working in the slightest.


they have earned a reputation as a very effective round.


:cool:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIO624oujQI

frank_drebin
12-26-2009, 10:21
Is there any certainty that this aforementioned bullet did not expand?
Was the bullet recovered?
Even expanded rounds often can leave a small exit hole, they sometimes turn sideways.

The round was recovered in partially expanded shape. It had not opened but was deformed from the impact to the wooden backstop (wall).

Let me sum this up clearly. Shots fired, threat stopped, end happy ending story. Now onto the next caliber war with pretty pictures of boolits fired into unrealistic conditions.

No, shots fired, threat stopped bullet continued through body and exited with enough velocity to hit and kill anyone behind him. Luckily it just embedded itself into a thick wooden post in the wall. This is not a caliber war. This is a "Which weight/bullet combination will expand most reliably out of my G33?"

DRT
12-26-2009, 14:31
..... This is not a caliber war. This is a "Which weight/bullet combination will expand most reliably out of my G33?"


Yeah, and now I guess we know what combination isn't the best choice...

.

PghJim
12-26-2009, 17:22
...This is a "Which weight/bullet combination will expand most reliably out of my G33?"

Your G33 is at a disadvantage with it's barrel size. The bullets that have always expanded in my G33 is Corbon JHP's. I use the 125gr version. Unfortunately you will not find any until at least Feb. Ferderal HST's have a better rate of expansion through heavy cloths than GD's. Ammo to Go still has some, but their velocity is only 1,360 through a 4" barrel, but that is faster than Speer GD's.

PersonOfInterest
12-26-2009, 20:06
I agree with the barrel length statements so far - ive always questioned having a 357sig in the shorter barrelled guns - honestly think your better off with a 9mm, once you get into the glock 31's etc theres a definate advantage, seeing it was a glock 32 used in this shooting you speak of well they may have contributed too - but like others have said theres no guarantee of expansion sometimes it just happens the way it did.
However with fast velocities it is very rare and in my own experiences its common place with slow velocities - dont buy into that 'even if a .45 fails to expand its still a .45' blah blah its garbage - even if a .355/357 projectiles makes it to .55 of an inch the internal damage is pretty bad from what ive seen first hand - and as ive said most the damage ive seen from slow moving .45 and .40s has been very minimal.
Stick with the 357sig - better yet go to a longer barrel.

unit1069
12-26-2009, 20:32
This thread is beginning to mimic the one where the poor chap decided to give up his 9mm because friends and family made fun of his "little minimeter" caliber.

One shooting at close range - a Gold Dot fails to expand perfectly - people panic - time to ditch Gold Dot - time to get a new pistol - time for a different caliber - maybe a longer barrel would be the ticket ...

Please, guys, get a grip!

frank_drebin
12-26-2009, 21:50
I appreciate all of the input and advise. I believe that the final outcome for me is to carry the round that performs best in my weapon. The only way to know what works is to test it myself with available legal means. I have chosen to keep my 147gr Hornady for now and will test the other end of the spectrum next week at the farm. I'll shoot 100gr powrball ammo rated at +1600fps and see how it performs vs the 147gr xtp. It may very well be that the shorter barrel would benefit from the powrball more so than a full length barrel. Until then, I'll carry the heaviest bullet available in my chosen calber. No matter what, its still faster than the same bullet in 9mm luger.

Lotiki
12-26-2009, 21:54
When the shopkeep shot the bad-guy with .357sig, did it stop the threat?

If so then it did it's job.

frank_drebin
12-26-2009, 22:02
When the shopkeep shot the bad-guy with .357sig, did it stop the threat?

If so then it did it's job.
That's not really the point here. Had you read the rest of the thread you would have seen that. The main concern was not that the person that was shot was stopped, it was that the round continued through the person and exited with enough velocity to kill anyone standing behind him. I'm not trying to sound rude here but your point was already brought up on page 1. I want the strongest round possible for my chosen firearm. I will not carry ammo that has proven to be unreliable or shows a tendency to overpenetrate. I'm sure there are 357 rounds that have proven reliable in ignition as well as expansion. If that proves to not be the case I will adjust accordingly. If I need to get a G27 barrel to drop in my G33 slide then so-be-it.

PghJim
12-26-2009, 23:11
If I need to get a G27 barrel to drop in my G33 slide then so-be-it.

Proceed with your plan, but you will face the same issue with a 40 cal at 3.5". Just remember that one instance does not mean anything. Ask any big city coroner. I have chatted with one, and they will tell you that basically anything can happen. The Secret Service use GD's, that means more to me than, one shooting.

BamaTrooper
12-26-2009, 23:24
A G22 firing 180grain JHP (unsure of the brand) was used by one of the deputies here, 49 yards away and it went through and through the chest and they still had to fight the guy. This AFTER he was hit side to side in the chin with a .223.
He ended up dying, but it wasn't immediate. If the gunshop owner had hot something, it might have ended differently.

PersonOfInterest
12-27-2009, 04:16
Just an update on the 147gn XTP from the 357sig - ive never actually bought them i have however bought and used alot of the 124gn Hornady custm loads on medium and animals (which worked exceptionally well) i was offered some of the 147gn but didnt bother buying them.

Ive just started handloading them but they are new to me so im still working up the load - the 10 that i loaded ive so far only chrono'ed to 1150fps and there pretty tame, next time ill get them moving at 1250fps.
At 1150fps i tested them into medium and found they went through and through with very little expansion.

I had about 15 inches of soaked newspaper and shot it while standing over it from about 1' both of the XTP's went into the ground underneath - i stopped digging at 6inches so as you can see switching to the 147gn wont have the desired effect your looking for.

Keep in mind im using a glock 31 now hornady advertise that load at 1220fps from a 4" barrel so i wouldnt be suprised if you get closer to the 1150fps mark from the glock 33.

frank_drebin
12-27-2009, 09:32
Just an update on the 147gn XTP from the 357sig - ive never actually bought them i have however bought and used alot of the 124gn Hornady custm loads on medium and animals (which worked exceptionally well) i was offered some of the 147gn but didnt bother buying them.

Ive just started handloading them but they are new to me so im still working up the load - the 10 that i loaded ive so far only chrono'ed to 1150fps and there pretty tame, next time ill get them moving at 1250fps.
At 1150fps i tested them into medium and found they went through and through with very little expansion.

I had about 15 inches of soaked newspaper and shot it while standing over it from about 1' both of the XTP's went into the ground underneath - i stopped digging at 6inches so as you can see switching to the 147gn wont have the desired effect your looking for.

Keep in mind im using a glock 31 now hornady advertise that load at 1220fps from a 4" barrel so i wouldnt be suprised if you get closer to the 1150fps mark from the glock 33.

Great info, thanks. I'd be interested to see what velocity they begin to reliably expand at. In your hand loads are you using bullets designated as 357 bullets or are you putting 9mm bullets in the 357 brass? I would bet that loading 9mm bullets would give more reliable expansion from a short barrel since some of the manufacturers are using a stouter bullet for 357 to ensure it stays together at higher velocities.

PersonOfInterest
12-27-2009, 20:40
Great info, thanks. I'd be interested to see what velocity they begin to reliably expand at. In your hand loads are you using bullets designated as 357 bullets or are you putting 9mm bullets in the 357 brass? I would bet that loading 9mm bullets would give more reliable expansion from a short barrel since some of the manufacturers are using a stouter bullet for 357 to ensure it stays together at higher velocities.
Well hornady only make 1 projectile in 147gn .355 XTP and ive seen there factory loads which use that exact same projectile, ill get some pics up soon.
Check out Buffalo Bore they make a 124gn GD load but thing is - they use the 9mm 124gn GD projectile and those are designed to open up easier and at lower velocities - i just thought of this after i wrote that last comment heres the thread http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1149128 now if you look up the thread before that from the same OP he has some pics up of that very load - you can see the difference.
Not sure what speed you need to get the 147gn moving at but my guess is over 1200fps - could be wrong.

gatorboy
12-28-2009, 10:00
"By that rationale the 357magnum was a bad stopper using the 125gn SJHP - end of the day its quite similair to the 357sig and it had a great reputation in LE circles."

One thing to consider is that the .357 Magnum using a 125 gr. SJHP did not require a bullet profile predicated upon reliable feeding in any semi-automatic pistol. There was no concern about the size of the hollow point or having jacket material to protect the core at the mouth of the hollow point and thus help insure reliable feeding. It required only a SJHP profile that could be produced with expansion/penetration in mind. The enviable record of the .357 Magnum with 125 gr. JHP ammo such as the Remington pedal point, etc. reflected the advantages of a revolver in both chambering and bullet design. Sincerely. Brucev.

The bottleneck case of the 357auto does allow a bullet profile with a large for caliber meplat. The only 357magnum HP bullet I know of with a meplat as large as the Speer GD 357auto is the Speer GD 357mag SB. It comes down to early HP's and the velocity of the round as was stated by another poster. The new HP's made for wheelguns have the same technology and basic construction as HP's for autos. In fact, I have 155 gr. .401 and 140 gr. .357 Barnes Expander bullets sitting here on my desk and the ones "made" for auto's (aside from .401 wheelguns) have larger for caliber meplats. Again, IMO speed is taken into consideration when constructing modern HP's.

countryrebel
12-28-2009, 23:23
I carry 125 GD's in my 357 sig and because of this story I am not going to change anything. If you worry about every shooting that the bullet did not work as desired you will be searching for the magic bullet forever. It simply does not exist. I would worry more about what I can shoot accurately and what my gun likes. IMO

PersonOfInterest
12-29-2009, 07:58
Ok just posting some pics here of some testing i did on the family farm in the last few days, on second thought i tryed the 147gn XTP's from the sig and it looks like they get decent expansion but fact is your more likely to get over penetration from the 147gn XTP than from the 125gn GD
i did some other testing too which i will soon make a new thread over which i fired through some objects into some medium (done this before but thought id revisit using a wooden door and a car door)
In these pics are some expanded 147gn XTP's doing 1150fps from my glock 31 and some assorted 9mm's i handloaded to 1300fps in 124gn and 1050fps in 147gn.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/g31147gnxtpii.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/g31147gnXTP.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/g31147gniii.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/9mmProjend09jpg.jpg

Mrs_Esterhouse
12-29-2009, 10:25
Cool! I'm extrapolating from your data that the 124gr XTP in 357SIG would have superior expansion to the 147gr.

frank_drebin
12-29-2009, 12:21
Great pictures PersonOfInterest. I am starting to lean toward the lighter 125gr loads in my short barreled G33. I'm guessing the shorter barrel needs all the help it can get.

DRT
12-29-2009, 14:23
Ok just posting some pics here of some testing i did on the family farm in the last few days, on second thought i tryed the 147gn XTP's from the sig and it looks like they get decent expansion but fact is your more likely to get over penetration from the 147gn XTP than from the 125gn GD
i did some other testing too which i will soon make a new thread over which i fired through some objects into some medium (done this before but thought id revisit using a wooden door and a car door)
In these pics are some expanded 147gn XTP's doing 1150fps from my glock 31 and some assorted 9mm's i handloaded to 1300fps in 124gn and 1050fps in 147gn.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/g31147gnxtpii.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/g31147gnXTP.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/g31147gniii.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/9mmProjend09jpg.jpg


How much heavy clothing did you shoot through with these loads?

.

Mrs_Esterhouse
12-29-2009, 16:09
Great pictures PersonOfInterest. I am starting to lean toward the lighter 125gr loads in my short barreled G33. I'm guessing the shorter barrel needs all the help it can get.

There is a pretty cool trick you can do. Drop in a G32 or G31 barrel in your G33, and you retain all that velocity in the lightweight, small G33 package. The barrel just sticks out the end a little.

frank_drebin
12-29-2009, 18:53
There is a pretty cool trick you can do. Drop in a G32 or G31 barrel in your G33, and you retain all that velocity in the lightweight, small G33 package. The barrel just sticks out the end a little.

I have done this with my G23 barrel. Very cool indeed.

Ticman
12-29-2009, 19:06
There is a pretty cool trick you can do. Drop in a G32 or G31 barrel in your G33, and you retain all that velocity in the lightweight, small G33 package. The barrel just sticks out the end a little.


You can use the 32 barrel in a 33 but not a 31. If you want a longer than the G32 barrel you need to get a lone Wolf extended barrel.

Someone on this site posted a pic of thier G33 with a 32 barrel and it looked pretty good IMO. The 357 sig really benefits from longer barrels.

PersonOfInterest
12-29-2009, 22:07
How much heavy clothing did you shoot through with these loads?

.
None whatsoever
i used some plastic wrap (used for wrapping pallets) about 3 layers

PersonOfInterest
12-29-2009, 22:18
Cool! I'm extrapolating from your data that the 124gr XTP in 357SIG would have superior expansion to the 147gr.
Yep that Hornady custom load has performed great for me, not long ago i shot a big male goat (about 170lbs) through the sternum - dropped it like a lightning bolt and the blood loss was horrific, ive found recovered 124gn XTP's to be actually umimpressive however the internal damage they do is anything but - very hard to beat. The gold dot is good too wouldnt bother cherry picking between the 2 either will serve anyone well.
Havent perfected the 147gn yet - next time i should have it moving at closer to 1250fps.

PersonOfInterest
12-29-2009, 22:19
Great pictures PersonOfInterest. I am starting to lean toward the lighter 125gr loads in my short barreled G33. I'm guessing the shorter barrel needs all the help it can get.
Thanks
Seriously id stick with the 125gn GD its not bad or try the 124gn XTP from Hornady, better yet look into those from Buffalo Bore the pics i saw did resemble the 124gn 9mm GD's which will give you exactly what your after.

mikegun
12-30-2009, 03:52
Texas DPS has killed a lot of BGS with the 357sig, without, i might add over penetration,i think its a great round.....

DRT
12-30-2009, 15:03
None whatsoever
i used some plastic wrap (used for wrapping pallets) about 3 layers

That's likely why they opened so much. Wonder how they'd perform through heavy clothing since most people are wearing it 4-6 months out of the year.

PersonOfInterest
12-31-2009, 02:13
That's likely why they opened so much. Wonder how they'd perform through heavy clothing since most people are wearing it 4-6 months out of the year.
Yeah i know that i never usually bother just an idea added to which ive seen what they do in things on 2 legs and 4 gel, wax, water, new print are only a guide.
Twice a year i do some culling of wild goats and other animals on a big property thats where i really see what works.

glocksterr
12-31-2009, 07:07
Yeah i know that i never usually bother just an idea added to which ive seen what they do in things on 2 legs and 4 gel, wax, water, new print are only a guide.
Twice a year i do some culling of wild goats and other animals on a big property thats where i really see what works.

hee,hee,

you will not impress anybody around here unless they are wearing two denim jackets.

:whistling:

skip a stone
12-31-2009, 23:11
Great pictures PersonOfInterest. I am starting to lean toward the lighter 125gr loads in my short barreled G33. I'm guessing the shorter barrel needs all the help it can get.

If your worried about the length of the G33, order a G32 barrel for it. It doesn't stick out enough to be a problem for conceal carry in my opinion, and LoneWolf actually offers up a replacement barrel for the G33/32 that extends the length to that of a full length G31, since full frames aren't interchangable with compacts and sub compacts. I would go with Glock though because the polygonal rifling gives about 50+ more fps than traditional rifled barrels.

LW may even offer longer versions for the compact/subcompact in their extended barrel section on their website. Just a thought, but I'm always trying to squeeze just a bit more speed out of the 357 Sig. The faster that round goes the harder it hits when it comes into contact with something solid, or semi solid anyway. :wow:

skip a stone
12-31-2009, 23:31
Sorry, didn't realize the extended barrel topic was already covered.

You may want to try 115, and 125gr from CorBon. I always heap lots of praise on CorBon because of the deep ridgeless canalure they put in their 357 Sig rounds then crimp the brass into it. This almost eliminates the bullet setback problem with the little neck space that is holding the .355 bullet in place in the bottle necked round. This also may even help build a spike of pressure after ignition to speed up the bullet a bit. (CorBon is known for their impressive speeds. the 115gr JHP's cook at 1,500 fps in a 4" barrel. I have Chronyed it just to be certain, and they do + 20/30fps.

Anything other than a compressed powder load in 357 Sig needs all the help it can get to hold the bullet in place with a neck that small. I've had nickel plated brass Speer GoldDot fall all the way back to the powder after only being chambered two or three times (this may build pressures way to high, and let gasses escape before the bullet makes it up to the neck on the way out) when I was checking out the new extractor I had just installed. If anybody has read any of my previous posts you will see a repiticious skipping record like theme when I talk about the 357 Sig and bullet setback. I love the round and primarily only shoot it aside from 9mm on occasion, but it is one of the small problems with that round that needs to be looked at a little more closely in my opinion.

Good luck to you with whatever you decide.

-Skip-

PersonOfInterest
01-01-2010, 21:06
hee,hee,

you will not impress anybody around here unless they are wearing two denim jackets.

:whistling:
haha yes or a comendation from Fackler whose - its and blah blah or lets not forget the FBI 12" :rofl:
Why cant we go back to the good old days of 'Me have gun - you bad - me shoot now' at what point did we decide we need 10,000 more options?

Alaskapopo
01-01-2010, 22:11
haha yes or a comendation from Fackler whose - its and blah blah or lets not forget the FBI 12" :rofl:
Why cant we go back to the good old days of 'Me have gun - you bad - me shoot now' at what point did we decide we need 10,000 more options?

Officers and agent shooting deaths were used to determine that 12 inchmark you so scoff at. Dr. Fackler has contributed more to the study of wound ballistics any any man in recent history. Again mocking him just shows a lack of knowledge and understanding of the subject on your part.
Pat

M&P Shooter
01-01-2010, 22:23
Just because a .357sig round failed to expand means nothing. Under certain conditions such as angles, clothing, poor self defense ammo selection, etc, etc any service handgun caliber can fail to expand. I believe in bigger bullets but forget all that crap and worry more on shot placement and continue shooting until threat is no longer a threat.

Stay safe:wavey:

PersonOfInterest
01-01-2010, 23:18
Officers and agent shooting deaths were used to determine that 12 inchmark you so scoff at. Dr. Fackler has contributed more to the study of wound ballistics any any man in recent history. Again mocking him just shows a lack of knowledge and understanding of the subject on your part.
Pat
Wow thanks :rofl:
You got his autograph?
I understand the 12" mark - you obviously spend way too much thinking its the be all and end all - fact is its not.
As for Fackler and all the other know it alls i was merely pointing out that there are people on here who spend way too much time there dwelling on there findings without first hand experiences.
You being the big .45 fan could tell me how a guy i grew up took the better part of 2 minutes to die from a round you would vouch for after sustaining two to the chest.
Dont get bent out of shape too much - just some parting advice as after reading most of what you say - i have no time for you.
Dont address me again on here.

Alaskapopo
01-02-2010, 00:29
Wow thanks :rofl:
You got his autograph?
I understand the 12" mark - you obviously spend way too much thinking its the be all and end all - fact is its not.
As for Fackler and all the other know it alls i was merely pointing out that there are people on here who spend way too much time there dwelling on there findings without first hand experiences.
You being the big .45 fan could tell me how a guy i grew up took the better part of 2 minutes to die from a round you would vouch for after sustaining two to the chest.
Dont get bent out of shape too much - just some parting advice as after reading most of what you say - i have no time for you.
Dont address me again on here.

I can address you on here if I want. You are free to ignore me if you chose. As for being hit with a 45 and not dying instantly SO WHAT. Handguns suck some do better than others but none of them are death rays. I am not really a fan of any caliber. I worry more about the gun than the caliber and go from there. If you want a Glock get a 9mm. If you want a 1911 get a 45. If you want a 40 get a Smith M&P.

Your essentially mocking a man who knows a hell of a lot more about terminal ballistics than you do. (Fackler)
Pat

PersonOfInterest
01-02-2010, 01:08
I can address you on here if I want. You are free to ignore me if you chose. As for being hit with a 45 and not dying instantly SO WHAT. Handguns suck some do better than others but none of them are death rays. I am not really a fan of any caliber. I worry more about the gun than the caliber and go from there. If you want a Glock get a 9mm. If you want a 1911 get a 45. If you want a 40 get a Smith M&P.

Your essentially mocking a man who knows a hell of a lot more about terminal ballistics than you do. (Fackler)
Pat
Righto then :rofl:
You keep going - i wasnt mocking him maybe you should read what i said, i cant believe how worked up you get honestly - grow up - seriously.
Im done with you.

Alaskapopo
01-02-2010, 02:58
Righto then :rofl:
You keep going - i wasnt mocking him maybe you should read what i said, i cant believe how worked up you get honestly - grow up - seriously.
Im done with you.

Grow up. Hmm maybe you should take your own advice. As for being done with me. Didn't you say that before. There is an ignore feature and your welcome to put me on that list.
Pat

greyeyezz
01-02-2010, 15:25
+1 on the Corbon 125's. Bad thing is they fragment sometimes.

M&P Shooter
01-02-2010, 16:39
I can address you on here if I want. You are free to ignore me if you chose. As for being hit with a 45 and not dying instantly SO WHAT. Handguns suck some do better than others but none of them are death rays. I am not really a fan of any caliber. I worry more about the gun than the caliber and go from there. If you want a Glock get a 9mm. If you want a 1911 get a 45. If you want a 40 get a Smith M&P.

Your essentially mocking a man who knows a hell of a lot more about terminal ballistics than you do. (Fackler)
PatJust curious why you mentioned the S&W M&P 40, I'm a armed guard at a federal building and my company issued us the S&W M&P 40 with NS.

Alaskapopo
01-02-2010, 17:07
Just curious why you mentioned the S&W M&P 40, I'm a armed guard at a federal building and my company issued us the S&W M&P 40 with NS.

There are not a lot of 40 caliber guns that run as well as their 9mm brothers. The 40 M&P seems to be an exception and its getting high praise from those who know what they are talking about. I don't own one but if I wanted a 40sw duty pistol that is what I would buy.
Pat

glocksterr
01-02-2010, 17:48
There are not a lot of 40 caliber guns that run as well as their 9mm brothers. The 40 M&P seems to be an exception.


Pat


Glock 4Tay!

Alaskapopo
01-02-2010, 18:57
Glock 4Tay!

I don't like the 22 because it has issues and won't run with a light attached. I only own and shoot Glock 9mm's from now on. If I want a different caliber I go outside of Glocks line up.
Pat

gatorboy
01-03-2010, 09:58
Just curious why you mentioned the S&W M&P 40, I'm a armed guard at a federal building and my company issued us the S&W M&P 40 with NS.

There are not a lot of 40 caliber guns that run as well as their 9mm brothers. The 40 M&P seems to be an exception and its getting high praise from those who know what they are talking about. I don't own one but if I wanted a 40sw duty pistol that is what I would buy.
Pat

Sorry to go off topic but I have three M&P's: 40, 40c and 45c. They all function flawlessly and recoil less than Glock 40's IMO. The 40c is in between size of the 27 and 23 and weighs the same as the 23, both fully loaded. That's the only benefit I see for the 23. I choose the FS40 over the 22. I've seen chrono results that show the S&W barrels are faster than Glock barrels despite being a 1/4" shorter in both cases 23-40c and 22-FS40. I understand velocity will vary barrel to barrel and have also seen chrono results posted by Butch that showed a 34 barrel faster than a 17L barrel.

gatorboy
01-03-2010, 10:27
I don't like the 22 because it has issues and won't run with a light attached. I only own and shoot Glock 9mm's from now on. If I want a different caliber I go outside of Glocks line up.
Pat

It's going a little far to insinuate that Glock 22's have issues and won't run with a light attached would'nt you agree? They are the most popular gun in LEO's holsters for three very good reasons: reliablility, capacity and weight. To say Glock 22's don't function with lights because of recent internet hysteria is just fanning the flames. Glock 22's have been around for close to 20 years and these issues with some newer 22's have just popped up in the last year. I don't drink the kool-aide and believe a batch of frames got out that probably flex more or less than those before and most likely by now, after the "bad" batch.

SIGShooter
01-03-2010, 14:41
This thread is beginning to mimic the one where the poor chap decided to give up his 9mm because friends and family made fun of his "little minimeter" caliber.

One shooting at close range - a Gold Dot fails to expand perfectly - people panic - time to ditch Gold Dot - time to get a new pistol - time for a different caliber - maybe a longer barrel would be the ticket ...

Please, guys, get a grip!


Shhhh!

Let them keep thinking that!

If they all start deciding that the GDs suck and they stop buying them, there will be more for us!!!

Come on man...I thought you knew this stuff!!!

:whistling:

DRT
01-03-2010, 18:02
Don't look now....yet another test where gold dot didn't open well through heavy clothing.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165550

Is anyone else starting to see a pattern ??? Nah, let's all just bury our heads in the sand a little deeper. Ignorance is bliss.

nndavec
01-04-2010, 00:23
It is actually more than a "bad batch" of Glock 22s. There are several agencies that have had the issues with the lights attached. There have also been issues with the newer made (last 2 years) Glock 22s without the lights attached.
On the other hand, there have been agencies that have no problems with them. Hopefully the Gen 4 Glock 22s will work great with the lights attached.





It's going a little far to insinuate that Glock 22's have issues and won't run with a light attached would'nt you agree? They are the most popular gun in LEO's holsters for three very good reasons: reliablility, capacity and weight. To say Glock 22's don't function with lights because of recent internet hysteria is just fanning the flames. Glock 22's have been around for close to 20 years and these issues with some newer 22's have just popped up in the last year. I don't drink the kool-aide and believe a batch of frames got out that probably flex more or less than those before and most likely by now, after the "bad" batch.

Alaskapopo
01-04-2010, 00:56
It's going a little far to insinuate that Glock 22's have issues and won't run with a light attached would'nt you agree? They are the most popular gun in LEO's holsters for three very good reasons: reliablility, capacity and weight. To say Glock 22's don't function with lights because of recent internet hysteria is just fanning the flames. Glock 22's have been around for close to 20 years and these issues with some newer 22's have just popped up in the last year. I don't drink the kool-aide and believe a batch of frames got out that probably flex more or less than those before and most likely by now, after the "bad" batch.

No Glock 22's do have issues with lights attached I know this from first hand experience. Please don't tell try and convince me of something that I know about first hand is internet myth.:upeyes:
Pat

LEAD
01-04-2010, 10:37
I have gold dots right now, but the cavity of the hollowpoint seems very shallow. Not that I hate gold dots, but I believe HSTS or Ranger Ts are better rounds. I plan to use Ranger Ts or HSTs in the future don't really know how they stack up, anyone got factual based knowledge i.e. chrono or experience with one or both? send a message to me privately if you don't think it will benefit the collective.

I do know that in actual shootings the gold dot has the most history for .357sig shootings by law enforcement. Ayoob wrote that the gold dot round did very well and those shot with it immediately stopped, also that there was pretty much only one case of somone dumping a whole lot of rounds in someone, and that could have been reflex, not necessity, according to him.

gatorboy
01-05-2010, 04:40
12345

gatorboy
01-05-2010, 04:42
No Glock 22's do have issues with lights attached I know this from first hand experience. Please don't tell try and convince me of something that I know about first hand is internet myth.:upeyes:
Pat

Alaskapoopoo, I'm interested to know what kind of first hand experience you have. You admit to only shooting 9mm Glocks. Does the campus police dept. you work for issue Glock 22's (guess not, see above)? What agencies in Alaska that you have first hand interaction with are having problems with Glock 22's not functioning with lights? Where did you shoot a light equipped Glock 22 that would'nt function properly? I don't think you have first hand knowledge of what you spew. You're doing nothing more than regurgitating rumors. Save your for somebody that does'nt know what kind of blatant misinformation you have posted for the last decade.

Alaskapopo
01-05-2010, 04:51
Alaskapoopoo, I'm interested to know what kind of first hand experience you have. You admit to only shooting 9mm Glocks. Does the campus police dept. you work for issue Glock 22's (guess not, see above)? What agencies in Alaska that you have first hand interaction with are having problems with Glock 22's not functioning with lights? Where did you shoot a light equipped Glock 22 that would'nt function properly? I don't think you have first hand knowledge of what you spew. You're doing nothing more than regurgitating rumors. Save your for somebody that does'nt know what kind of blatant misinformation you have posted for the last decade.

Your reading comprehension needs a lot of work. I never said I have only owned and shot Glock 9mm's. Don't make assumptions.

I have owned the following Glocks. 17, 26, 22L, 31, 33, 20, 21.27.
I carried a Glock 21 that was department owned for about 5 years of my 10 year career as a cop.

As for the Glock 22 that would not function properly with a light attached. My own personal experience was when I was running one of my officers through a qualification. It malfunctioned with an M3 light attached, Removed the light it worked. Put the light back on it did not work. Did this for 200 rounds. My Glock 21 that I was issued also had malfunctions with the weapon light attached during some low light training.

Its not uncommon for Glock 22's to have issues with lights attached. The fact you are not aware of this issue means your fairly ignorant.

http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=100210

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85284&highlight=glock+malfunction+light

The Indiana State Police dropped all of their Glock 22's and went to Glock 17's because of these issues.

Next time you post get your facts straight. If you would like I can have the said officer attach the light to his gun and I will video it malfunctioning and put it on youtube.

Its not surprise to me that you have been on Glocktalk for 10 years and have not made one friend.
Pat

gatorboy
01-07-2010, 10:31
Your reading comprehension needs a lot of work. I never said I have only owned and shot Glock 9mm's. Don't make assumptions.

I have owned the following Glocks. 17, 26, 22L, 31, 33, 20, 21.27.
I carried a Glock 21 that was department owned for about 5 years of my 10 year career as a cop.

As for the Glock 22 that would not function properly with a light attached. My own personal experience was when I was running one of my officers through a qualification. It malfunctioned with an M3 light attached, Removed the light it worked. Put the light back on it did not work. Did this for 200 rounds. My Glock 21 that I was issued also had malfunctions with the weapon light attached during some low light training.

Its not uncommon for Glock 22's to have issues with lights attached. The fact you are not aware of this issue means your fairly ignorant.

http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=100210

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85284&highlight=glock+malfunction+light

The Indiana State Police dropped all of their Glock 22's and went to Glock 17's because of these issues.

Next time you post get your facts straight. If you would like I can have the said officer attach the light to his gun and I will video it malfunctioning and put it on youtube.

Its not surprise to me that you have been on Glocktalk for 10 years and have not made one friend.
Pat

BLAH BLAH BLAH... sure Pat. I have a life, I don't come to GT to make friends. I come to GT because I'm bored and not at work, shooting, fishing or sleeping. I spend time with my fiance once in a while also. If I wanted to make friends online, I'd use my real name and probably have my phone # in my signature so quality individuals like yourself could call me up for a circle jerk.

Alaskapopo
01-07-2010, 13:00
so quality individuals like yourself could call me up for a circle jerk.

Yep that is a real mature response. Its time for you to grow up an act like an adult. You were wrong and got called on it, admit it and move on. Simple enough. Don't throw a tantrum.
Pat

frank_drebin
01-07-2010, 13:40
:headscratch: yeah so uhhhh anyway....... Just refresh everyone on what the original post was about......... This old guy in a local gun shop I go to (not anymore though) got startled and shot one of his employees one night with a Glock 32 and it exited the guy w/o expanding. He's probably going to eat through a tube for the rest of his life but....

Alaskapopo
01-07-2010, 13:46
:headscratch: yeah so uhhhh anyway....... Just refresh everyone on what the original post was about......... This old guy in a local gun shop I go to (not anymore though) got startled and shot one of his employees one night with a Glock 32 and it exited the guy w/o expanding. He's probably going to eat through a tube for the rest of his life but....

That sucks. Another reason why people need to have a light (either weapon or handheld) ready for use. You should never shoot what you can't ID as a threat.
Pat

frank_drebin
01-07-2010, 14:05
Not sure a light would have helped here. This was just plain old STUPIDITY and NEGLIGENCE. From my understanding, they were closing up shop and pushing in all of the go-karts and motorcycles that they keep outside. One employee was leaning over a go-kart pushing it in the door and the older man was standing with his back to the door working on something. The go-kart would have clipped his leg so another employee yelled "Watch out (person's name)" causing him to turn and fire. The bullet apparently entered the employees chest and exited his lower back. That's all I know right now.

Alaskapopo
01-07-2010, 14:09
Not sure a light would have helped here. This was just plain old STUPIDITY and NEGLIGENCE. From my understanding, they were closing up shop and pushing in all of the go-karts and motorcycles that they keep outside. One employee was leaning over a go-kart pushing it in the door and the older man was standing with his back to the door working on something. The go-kart would have clipped his leg so another employee yelled "Watch out (person's name)" causing him to turn and fire. The bullet apparently entered the employees chest and exited his lower back. That's all I know right now.

Damn that is stupid. The kind of thing that gives anti gunners ammo to use against us.
Pat

mclaren
01-07-2010, 14:21
Yeah, next time someone yells "watch out" he should definitely turn the weapon on himself regardless of the situation. Then they should give me his G32.
It is stories like this that make people think we are all trigger happy.

frank_drebin
01-07-2010, 14:34
To top it all off, he was charged with a misdemeanor. Something about mishandling a firearm or something. However, from what i understand the employee in question is being represented probono by a well known Atlanta lawyer. We'll see how that shakes out. I wonder how long that little store will stay in business after that.... Looks real good to a jury that they didn't fire the guy that shot.

M&P Shooter
01-07-2010, 15:01
I don't like the 22 because it has issues and won't run with a light attached. I only own and shoot Glock 9mm's from now on. If I want a different caliber I go outside of Glocks line up.
Pat
I have a G22 that I have been shooting at the range with my friends light/laser combo attached a lot and she functions flawlessly every time. I also have a LW .357sig barrel and 9mm LW conversion barrel I have used more then once and they also functions flawlessly.
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/Glock40guy/003-3.jpg

Alaskapopo
01-07-2010, 15:06
I have a G22 that I have been shooting at the range with my friends light/laser combo attached a lot and she functions flawlessly every time. I also have a LW .357sig barrel and 9mm LW conversion barrel I have used more then once and they also functions flawlessly.
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/Glock40guy/003-3.jpg

That is great. How many rounds do you have down range. The Indiana State Police started having problems after about 5k rounds were down range. Glock has of yet not been able to fully fix the problem. They do have a magazine spring and follower upgrade that is supposed to help with the issue. Personally I would rather stick with the Glock 17 that always runs than a 22 that does sometimes.
pat

M&P Shooter
01-07-2010, 15:25
That is great. How many rounds do you have down range. The Indiana State Police started having problems after about 5k rounds were down range. Glock has of yet not been able to fully fix the problem. They do have a magazine spring and follower upgrade that is supposed to help with the issue. Personally I would rather stick with the Glock 17 that always runs than a 22 that does sometimes.
pat
I've been shooting the G22 since 2000 and put 300-500 rounds every month through my G22 at the range, that's at least 24,000 rounds through my G22 and I never replaced anything except I added a LW slide last year and had zero issues with her. I don't know if the Indiana state police received a bad batch but I have had zero issues and can say the same for my G23 that's about 7 years old.

Alaskapopo
01-07-2010, 17:25
I've been shooting the G22 since 2000 and put 300-500 rounds every month through my G22 at the range, that's at least 24,000 rounds through my G22 and I never replaced anything except I added a LW slide last year and had zero issues with her. I don't know if the Indiana state police received a bad batch but I have had zero issues and can say the same for my G23 that's about 7 years old.

No they did not get a bad batch because Glock sent several replacements. You must just be lucky. Sample size of one for you vs quite a few hundred for them.
Pat

M&P Shooter
01-07-2010, 17:54
No they did not get a bad batch because Glock sent several replacements. You must just be lucky. Sample size of one for you vs quite a few hundred for them.
Pat
Must be because Glock knows I post on GT and sent me a special model:rofl:

Alaskapopo
01-07-2010, 17:57
Must be because Glock knows I post on GT and sent me a special model:rofl:

Yea I guess the entire Indiana State Police force is lying. :upeyes:
Pat

nndavec
01-07-2010, 18:03
And Topeka and Oklahoma City must be too :whistling:



Yea I guess the entire Indiana State Police force is lying. :upeyes:
Pat

owl6roll
01-07-2010, 19:46
A former coworker had to shoot a guy through the drivers window (window down) as he was rolling over the hood and down the side of the suspects car. 230gr slug struck him in the upper left shoulder passing through and lodged in the dash of the car, and the suspect survived. The suspect did stop the car.

PersonOfInterest
01-08-2010, 06:15
To top it all off, he was charged with a misdemeanor. Something about mishandling a firearm or something. However, from what i understand the employee in question is being represented probono by a well known Atlanta lawyer. We'll see how that shakes out. I wonder how long that little store will stay in business after that.... Looks real good to a jury that they didn't fire the guy that shot.
Interesting - so anyway what are all your thoughts now? personally if i was you id stick with the gold dots, i have another thread open where over the two weeks around christmas i did some shooting into some wet news paper through some different mediums (car door, wooden door) now look i shoot alot of animals during the year and ive seen what bullets can do to human bodies too so i understand mediums arents all there cracked up to be however just to get a rough idea what there capable of after going through different barriers i tryed this (added to which i did this test years prior to buying a 357sig).

One thing i did notice alot was that the 357sig and 357magnum managed to stay in the medium after going through barriers - to me this is due the fact they have that speed on there side hence expansion isnt effected as much due to the damage done to the projectiles from the barriers, projectiles going slower wont get that expansion - they rely more so on the tolerance of the projectiles design to still allow expansion.

Ill admit i could be wrong but it makes sense to me, the slower 9mm's, the 180gns .40's even the heavier 357magnum failed to get any expansion and passed through much like FMJ's.
heres the thread
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165348

frank_drebin
01-08-2010, 06:40
Thanks for that POI. I followed your thread and actually commented in it as well. For now I am sticking with the Hornady 147gr load.

DowntimeLA
01-08-2010, 10:22
He said that in his opinion it was "travelling too fast and didn't have time to expand".

Any thoughts on this?


I shot a deer with a bonded bullet and had the same type of effect. The bullet almost performed like a FMJ.

For this reason I went with ranger T's in my glock 32. They produce a little more muzzle flash than the speer but should flower petal faster.