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Petrie
12-27-2009, 23:33
I was curious how many of you guys have an AR-15 as the primary home defense weapon? Also what kind of ammo do you use. I sure wouldn't shoot a FMJ in the house at someone, so I figure you guys must use a 45 gr psp or something that'll mushroom. When I bought my AR the salesman said that it might not be as reliable with non fmj rounds. I have a 9mm pistol as my home defense weapon, but was interested what you AR guys use.

kirgi08
12-27-2009, 23:55
There are better choices out there for HD.I prefer a railed pistol or a shotgun/w-light.My HD is a G23 or a mossy 590 w-low recoil 00 buck.YMMV.'08.

crazypilot
12-27-2009, 23:57
I have Hornady TAP 75gr (5.56) loaded in my mags. My rifle is close by and can get to it quick but the handgun is easier to manuver around my house. However, I trust the rifle more than the handgun.

Norcal911
12-28-2009, 00:03
The AR is a great HD weapon. There are many many tests that show that the 5.56 penetrates less than almost any reasonable pistol round. FMJ's break apart very quickly upon striking just about anything due not only to their high velocity but also their extremely high rotational velocity. Your 9MM is much more "dangerous" when looked at from an over-penetration point of view. AR also points more naturally, holds more rounds, has a far greater range, recoils less, can defeat most body armor, and is more likely to produce a one shot stop than any 9MM (or .40, .45, etc). I would never choose a pistol for a gunfight, I just always have a pistol on me so its more likely that I'll have to engage with it. When there is a higher probability of an armed confrontation (felony stop, active shooter, high risk entry, etc), I always take my AR-Norcal911

HAIL CAESAR
12-28-2009, 00:24
The AR is a great HD weapon. There are many many tests that show that the 5.56 penetrates less than almost any reasonable pistol round. FMJ's break apart very quickly upon striking just about anything due not only to their high velocity but also their extremely high rotational velocity. Your 9MM is much more "dangerous" when looked at from an over-penetration point of view. AR also points more naturally, holds more rounds, has a far greater range, recoils less, can defeat most body armor, and is more likely to produce a one shot stop than any 9MM (or .40, .45, etc). I would never choose a pistol for a gunfight, I just always have a pistol on me so its more likely that I'll have to engage with it. When there is a higher probability of an armed confrontation (felony stop, active shooter, high risk entry, etc), I always take my AR-Norcal911

I guess I have nothing more to add, Norcal911 covered it pretty well.

If you live in an apartment I would use some 50 or 55 grain HP's. They will penetrate less wallboard than any 9mm.

DScottHewitt
12-28-2009, 00:26
20" Oly Arms with M193

RMTactical
12-28-2009, 00:30
AR15 carbine with XM193 or Black Hills 68gr OTM. That is my first choice for home defense.

lawman800
12-28-2009, 03:16
M4gery with Winchester 62 grain FMJs. I have no worries they will overpenetrate and they will defeat body armor with less kick than my 9mm G34. Plus, it just looks cool, mang!

Andrewsky
12-28-2009, 10:02
I just load mine with 5.56 55 gr FMJs (M193).

Javelin
12-28-2009, 10:07
The AR is a great HD weapon. There are many many tests that show that the 5.56 penetrates less than almost any reasonable pistol round. FMJ's break apart very quickly upon striking just about anything due not only to their high velocity but also their extremely high rotational velocity. Your 9MM is much more "dangerous" when looked at from an over-penetration point of view. AR also points more naturally, holds more rounds, has a far greater range, recoils less, can defeat most body armor, and is more likely to produce a one shot stop than any 9MM (or .40, .45, etc). I would never choose a pistol for a gunfight, I just always have a pistol on me so its more likely that I'll have to engage with it. When there is a higher probability of an armed confrontation (felony stop, active shooter, high risk entry, etc), I always take my AR-Norcal911

This. And if your AR is a suppressed shorty then all the better IMO :supergrin:

blueroot
12-28-2009, 10:10
I've been wondering about the AR vs. handgun for home defense issue. I have both, but I'm not convinced the AR is always better. I like the maneuverability of the pistol in the tighter spaces of the house and hallways. The rifle is easier to shoot accurately at any real distance, but in the confines of the house, unless shooting down a decent length hallway, I'm not sure that is a slam dunk reason to give up the maneuverability.

Edit: Removed a chart where I goofed the calculation and formed bad assumptions from bad data. Oops. :)

Glolt20-91
12-28-2009, 10:53
I've been wondering about the AR vs. handgun for home defense issue. I have both, but I'm not convinced the AR is always better. I like the maneuverability of the pistol in the tighter spaces of the house and hallways. The rifle is easier to shoot accurately at any real distance, but in the confines of the house, unless shooting down a decent length hallway, I'm not sure that is a slam dunk reason to give up the maneuverability.

So what about the effectiveness of the ammo? I worked up a little chart of the force of impact of a few brands and weights of bullet. This doesn't take the reduction of velocity of the bullet into account after it leaves the barrel. At home defense ranges I don't think it should make much difference.

http://www.modeblue.com/pics/223vs40.png

What this seems to imply is that the 75 grain .223 (Hornady TAP) is the clear winner, but that the 165 grain .40 (Speer Gold Dot) is the second best in the group, beating the 55 grain and 60 grain .223 rounds. The 165 grain .40 is on par with the 60 grain .223 with respect to force. The 180 grain .40 is the worst of the group. But by this chart I would almost be willing to say I'd rather have the pistol in 165 grain over anything but an AR with 75 grain ammo? I suppose there may be more too it, but it seems like the ammo choice is more important than the pistol vs. rifle choice (for these chosen calibers at least).

I'm not sure what a force of impact is, or how you can predict the greater leathality of a 165gr Gold Dot vis a vis a 55gr FMJ. To me, an AR carbine (M4 type), with an Aimpoint/EOTech gives faster target acquisition times (especially engaging multiple felons, which is common in home invasions) and split times. What are your split times between the two platforms on single/multiple targets?

The 165gr Gold Dot is well down my list as a pistol/revolver self defense load and it creates less of a crush cavity compared to the 55gr FMJ/75gr TAP.

Bob :cowboy:

HAIL CAESAR
12-28-2009, 11:11
Yes, what is force of impact?

blueroot
12-28-2009, 11:50
Sorry. I forgot to mention that I was using the standard physics equation for force. Force = mass * velocity^2. The numbers in the grid are ratios, so the 75 grain produces 18% more force than the 180 grain, etc.

Maybe the higher velocity wound cavity is significantly more damaging such that the lower grain rifle hits are indeed worse than even the 165 grain round despite the overall force being less. I have no idea really, I'm just tryingto work through the angles of rationale.

mymini40
12-28-2009, 12:14
Your problem here is overpenetration.. if you use the AR.

blueroot
12-28-2009, 12:23
To me, an AR carbine (M4 type), with an Aimpoint/EOTech gives faster target acquisition times (especially engaging multiple felons, which is common in home invasions) and split times. What are your split times between the two platforms on single/multiple targets?

I have an EOTech on my AR (16" barrel) and it is very fast, no doubt, when there is space to swing around and not worry about banging into walls and bookshelves. At very close quarters (five feet or so), aiming isn't quite the same issue and being able to use the pistol one handed while the other hand does something else seems like an advantage.

It really does seem like the ideal scenario is a pistol on the hip and an AR in the hand, but when you roll out of bed and have to grab something fast, it is probably one or the other.

blueroot
12-28-2009, 12:28
Your problem here is overpenetration.. if you use the AR.

If they are hollow point, I'm not sure it is any more of an issue than with the pistol. At least from some ballistics reports I've read. I'm certainly no expert though.

lawman800
12-28-2009, 12:31
Is that like "knockdown power"?:whistling:

blueroot
12-28-2009, 12:33
Is that like "knockdown power"?:whistling:

I never said anything about "knockdown". It is just a physics equation that has been around for ages and age. Force isn't a meaningless concept.

NeverMore1701
12-28-2009, 13:05
For our purposes, it kinda is. Not nearly that simple.

jdm0506
12-28-2009, 13:09
Primary is a G19 with a TLR-1 mounted on the rail, loaded with 147 gr HSTs. I do keep a 20rd mag of 62gr Gold Dots in my AR, but I use my handgun as my primary.

blueroot
12-28-2009, 13:23
For our purposes, it kinda is. Not nearly that simple.

I won't pretend it is that simple, but I haven't seen proof that a 60 grain .223 is more effective at 10 feet than a 165 grain .40. The calculated force is nearly identical. I'm not trying to come across as a know-it-all, nor am I claiming one is or isn't better than the other, or anything like that. I'm just trying to figure out why the rifle is always better (specifically in a close quarters home defense situation) according to most folks (seemingly). Just because folks say it is, isn't proof to me. :)

I suppose what I need to do is some airsoft training drills in my own home with both systems see which I can utilize most effectively and see if that sways me one way or the other.

Glolt20-91
12-28-2009, 13:25
I have an EOTech on my AR (16" barrel) and it is very fast, no doubt, when there is space to swing around and not worry about banging into walls and bookshelves. At very close quarters (five feet or so), aiming isn't quite the same issue and being able to use the pistol one handed while the other hand does something else seems like an advantage.

It really does seem like the ideal scenario is a pistol on the hip and an AR in the hand, but when you roll out of bed and have to grab something fast, it is probably one or the other.

In a home defense scenario I'm waiting for felons to come to me, but I carry pistols/revolvers CCW during awake hours. With a confirmed night home invasion, why would I want to put myself at a tactical disadvantage by leaving the bedroom?

Bob :cowboy:

TimP
12-28-2009, 13:26
This. And if your AR is a suppressed shorty then all the better IMO :supergrin:

you know it!

lawman800
12-28-2009, 13:26
It really does seem like the ideal scenario is a pistol on the hip and an AR in the hand, but when you roll out of bed and have to grab something fast, it is probably one or the other.

You mean you don't go to sleep with a Glock on your hip and an AR slung across you back?:whistling:

blueroot
12-28-2009, 13:31
In a home defense scenario I'm waiting for felons to come to me, but I carry pistols/revolvers CCW during awake hours. With a confirmed night home invasion, why would I want to put myself at a tactical disadvantage by leaving the bedroom?

I would do the exact same thing if I didn't have kids.

blueroot
12-28-2009, 13:32
You mean you don't go to sleep with a Glock on your hip and an AR slung across you back?:whistling:

:supergrin:

internal
12-28-2009, 13:42
I won't pretend it is that simple, but I haven't seen proof that a 60 grain .223 is more effective at 10 feet than a 165 grain .40. The calculated force is nearly identical. I'm not trying to come across as a know-it-all, nor am I claiming one is or isn't better than the other, or anything like that. I'm just trying to figure out why the rifle is always better (specifically in a close quarters home defense situation) according to most folks (seemingly). Just because folks say it is, isn't proof to me. :)

I suppose what I need to do is some airsoft training drills in my own home with both systems see which I can utilize most effectively and see if that sways me one way or the other.

I'm not sure where you're getting your math but a 55grn .223 round has over 1100-1300 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle depending on barrel length.

A .40SW has barely over 450 ft/lbs at the muzzle.

A .223 has at least 500 ft/lbs of energy at 500 yards.

I don't understand your math(or maybe mine is flawed?)

lawman800
12-28-2009, 13:51
For HD, a short barreled 12 gauge pump rules all. I'd make sure to rack it real loud too and announce that the gauge is coming out and clearing the hallways.

It's put an end to more than a few fights on the streets when I racked the ole Rem870.

blueroot
12-28-2009, 13:53
Hahahaha... Now I feel like a real dork (more so than usual). I was calculating force, but forgot to square velocity in the actual calculation. Alright, now the .223 blows the .40 out of the water.

I'll post the new table in a second...

internal
12-28-2009, 13:55
For HD, a short barreled 12 gauge pump rules all. I'd make sure to rack it real loud too and announce that the gauge is coming out and clearing the hallways.

It's put an end to more than a few fights on the streets when I racked the ole Rem870.

With birdshot too right?

I've been on gun boards long enough to know when someone's trolling. :tongueout:

blueroot
12-28-2009, 13:55
For HD, a short barreled 12 gauge pump rules all. I'd make sure to rack it real loud too and announce that the gauge is coming out and clearing the hallways.

It's put an end to more than a few fights on the streets when I racked the ole Rem870.

I don't have a shotgun yet, but maybe that is my next purchase.

Glolt20-91
12-28-2009, 13:56
Sorry. I forgot to mention that I was using the standard physics equation for force. Force = mass * velocity^2. The numbers in the grid are ratios, so the 75 grain produces 18% more force than the 180 grain, etc.

Maybe the higher velocity wound cavity is significantly more damaging such that the lower grain rifle hits are indeed worse than even the 165 grain round despite the overall force being less. I have no idea really, I'm just tryingto work through the angles of rationale.

At first, the force equation seems reasonable; however, this formula doesn't take into account bullet design parameters. The force formula does not make any distinctions between between 165gr TMJs or 165gr JHPs, but their permanent wound channels would be very different. Wound Trauma Incapacitation (WTI) models are mathematically and extremely complex, well beyond the simplistic formula posted.

In addition from Duncan MacPherson;

As a result, the fallacies associated with the attempts to analyze WTI (wound trauma incapacitation) using energy relationships are openly discussed throughout the text. The assumption that bullet energy is of primary importance in WTI seems so natural that it is widely believed, and sometimes seems to assume the status of self evident truth. . . . The assumption that bullet energy is of primary importance in WTI creation by handgun bullet penetration is unequivocally wrong; those individuals who are willing to put aside their prejudices can understand why this is wrong.

An example is found here comparing two Corbon DPX ballistic gel tests, as written by Michael Shovel at Corbon;

I have a photo of the expanded bullets with the handwritten results of some testing we did using the 44 Spl DPX round and the 44 Mag DPX round from a 4" S&W M 629. Anybody that has the time to post the photo is welcome and I will email it to them.

This was using properly prepared 10% ballistic gelatin with a 4 layer denim barrier.

The 44 Special ended up with

velocity - 1024 fps
recovered diameter - .89"
penetration - 17.5"
recovered wt - 200 gr

44 Mag was

1201 fps
recovered diameter - .74"
penetration - 17"
recovered wt - 225 gr

Naturally the temporary stretch cavity was larger with the 44 Mag load due to the higher velocity.


The lighter, slower, less energy .44 Special DPX design went heads up with the heavier, faster, more energy .44 magnum; based upon a separate bullet design for each caliber.

Concerning the 75gr TAP bullet that is used by many entry teams;

While M193 and M855 have a fragmentation threshold of only 2700 fps, the 75 grain BTHP bullet used in TAP ammunition has a reliable fragmentation threshold down to 2250 fps. Ballistic gel testing by Dr. G.K Roberts, Hornady and others have demonstrated that 5.56 TAP has the best terminal ballistic properties of any 5.56mm load currently on the market.

Hope this helps clear up a few things.

Bob :cowboy:

internal
12-28-2009, 13:57
I don't have a shotgun yet, but maybe that is my next purchase.

:faint:

blueroot
12-28-2009, 13:58
Alrighty... Here is the correct force comparisson chart. The previous chart could be considered a momentum chart.

http://www.modeblue.com/pics/223vs40actual.png

blueroot
12-28-2009, 14:00
Hope this helps clear up a few things.


Excellent references. Thanks.

internal
12-28-2009, 14:13
This with some TAP ammo would be the best home defense/CQB setup IMO:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/millersho/SBR1.jpg?t=1262034791

Glolt20-91
12-28-2009, 14:13
I would do the exact same thing if I didn't have kids.

This can complicate things, have you done any home invasion or fire drills with your family?

In the horrific possibility that one of you family members was held hostage by a felon(s), what is your contingency plan?

Bob :cowboy:

blueroot
12-28-2009, 14:31
This can complicate things, have you done any home invasion or fire drills with your family?

In the horrific possibility that one of you family members was held hostage by a felon(s), what is your contingency plan?


I'm sad to say I haven't planned with the family yet. I'm a relative newb in this. I bought my first firearm only six months ago and have only really started thinking about these things. I took my first defensive pistol class recently and plan to get more training, including with my AR (and shotgun when I'm able to pick one of those up). I have a fair amount of hand to hand training (been into martial arts for many, many years), but that only goes so far.

In a family hostage situation, I'm not really sure. A dynamic situation that at this point I'd have to play out in real time wth no pre-plan. Any tips in that area would always be appreciated. I wonder if setting up the house with knock out gas nozzles in all rooms would raise an objection with the wife. ;)

blueroot
12-28-2009, 14:36
This with some TAP ammo would be the best home defense/CQB setup IMO:

Is that a 10.5" barrel?

internal
12-28-2009, 14:42
Is that a 10.5" barrel?

11.5" BCM upper

NeverMore1701
12-28-2009, 14:44
Anything I'd use for HD needs a light.

lawman800
12-28-2009, 14:45
With birdshot too right?

I've been on gun boards long enough to know when someone's trolling. :tongueout:

Birdshot? I don't even load it, makes it too heavy. I just rack it a few times and hope nobody calls my bluff.:whistling:

kirgi08
12-28-2009, 14:50
:laughabove: :rofl:

BrandonG17
12-28-2009, 15:20
Birdshot? I don't even load it, makes it too heavy. I just rack it a few times and hope nobody calls my bluff.:whistling:

Haha. Just rack it and run though the house yelling. Scare the hell outta the person who tried to break in. It would freak me out lol

lawman800
12-28-2009, 15:35
It would freak me out too thinking this guy is definitely out of his gourd. The only thing that can make it worse is if he painted the tip of the shotgun orange.

Kegel
12-28-2009, 15:54
Box o'truth.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Read it and learn. You shouldnt shoot your AR in the house unless you want to go deaf and kill the neighbors.

AK_Stick
12-28-2009, 16:05
Box o'truth.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Read it and learn. You shouldnt shoot your AR in the house unless you want to go deaf and kill the neighbors.




OP, just ignore this idiot. If you'd like to learn alot, do a search of his posts in this forum, and read the several dozen times he's been corrected on this issue, along with several others. It'll open your eyes to say the least.


You could do far worse than an M-4 or AR-15 as HD weapon. While they might be a little loud, they over penetrate less than a handgun or shotgun will, and they're much more accurate than either.

Kegel
12-28-2009, 16:08
OP, just ignore this idiot. If you'd like to learn alot, do a search of his posts in this forum, and read the several dozen times he's been corrected on this issue, along with several others. It'll open your eyes to say the least.


You could do far worse than an M-4 or AR-15 as HD weapon. While they might be a little loud, they over penetrate less than a handgun or shotgun will, and they're much more accurate than either.


Corrected? I think not.

Again. Dont shoot 5.56 in the house, youll kill the neighbors.

Box o truth. Box o truth.

lawman800
12-28-2009, 16:18
Better deaf than dead. The last letter makes a difference.

AK_Stick
12-28-2009, 16:35
Corrected? I think not.

Again. Dont shoot 5.56 in the house, youll kill the neighbors.

Box o truth. Box o truth.


Like I said, you've been corrected, however much like our other forum troll Betyourlife, you're too ignorant to understand.

Thats why I was addressing the OP. Since you refuse to learn, we can share the same information with others who can take something from it.

lawman800
12-28-2009, 16:49
Never liked my neighbors anyway... ack.

faawrenchbndr
12-28-2009, 17:07
Corrected? I think not.

Again. Dont shoot 5.56 in the house, youll kill the neighbors.

Box o truth. Box o truth.

You've been schooled,.......:tongueout:
You need to do some REAL homework instead of reading the internet BS.

Kegel
12-28-2009, 17:13
You've been schooled,.......:tongueout:
You need to do some REAL homework instead of reading the internet BS.


Schooled? LOL. Hardly fool. Show me something other than gelatin blocks.

Stick just keeps saying blah blah blah but only thing he can come up with is.....nothing? With 10000 posts you would think he would have something. Too busy posting and not enough shooting I guess. LOL

Box o truth.

Dont shoot 5.56 in the house.

faawrenchbndr
12-28-2009, 17:19
Schooled? LOL. Hardly fool. Show me something other than gelatin blocks........

Ok,......you keep thinking that.
There are many here that have seen, and HAVE shot an M4 in a kill house.
Many have shot an M4 inside a real house/building,...... If you care not to
listen to "first hand information", fine I do not care either way.

"An Ostrich with his head in the sand is the only one that believes he is right" :wavey:

Kegel
12-28-2009, 17:27
Ok,......you keep thinking that.
There are many here that have seen, and HAVE shot an M4 in a kill house.
Many have shot an M4 inside a real house/building,...... If you care not to
listen to "first hand information", fine I do not care either way.

"An Ostrich with his head in the sand is the only one that believes he is right" :wavey:


http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles2006/200653121759.asp

"Like all kill houses, the new one in Germany has walls with two inches of wood, backed by steel thick enough to stop 5.56mm bullets. The Grafenwöhr is large to reflect the fact the American troops in Iraq often have to clear industrial facilities. Now there is a kill house big enough to do training for that."

Hmmmm. What I thought. Try again.

Molon
12-28-2009, 17:30
Sorry. I forgot to mention that I was using the standard physics equation for force. Force = mass * velocity^2.

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5COwner%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> The equation for Force is:
<o:p> </o:p>
Force = Mass times [I]acceleration. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Force is not an indicator of terminal ballistic properties.
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

Gallium
12-28-2009, 17:31
Like I said, you've been corrected, however much like our other forum troll Betyourlife, you're too ignorant to understand.

Thats why I was addressing the OP. Since you refuse to learn, we can share the same information with others who can take something from it.

I thought it was only a GNG/etc thing. :faint:

Molon
12-28-2009, 17:33
Your problem here is overpenetration.. if you use the AR.

Wrong. Testing by Dr. G.K. Roberts and the FBI and has proven as much.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/zh2fk6nh50.jpg

HAIL CAESAR
12-28-2009, 17:33
Corrected? I think not.

Again. Dont shoot 5.56 in the house, youll kill the neighbors.

Box o truth. Box o truth.

I have shot a .223 ( Mini and AR) in a shoot house many times and several barns. I have shot a .223 in a real house twice. I am not deaf.

And as for my neighbors house, I will set a 50 BMG and a box of ammo on my porch and point you in the right direction. If you can hit that house then I'll sign over the deed to my house to you.

Things you have never done might make for interesting errornet discussions. And you can not give absolute advise to someone you know nothing about, or about the quality of advise you are giving because you have no experience.

Molon
12-28-2009, 17:39
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5COwner%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Concerning the 75gr TAP bullet that is used by many entry teams;<o:p></o:p>
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Quote:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> "</o:p>While M193 and M855 have a fragmentation threshold of only 2700 fps, the 75 grain BTHP bullet used in TAP ammunition has a reliable fragmentation threshold down to 2250 fps. Ballistic gel testing by Dr. G.K Roberts, Hornady and others have demonstrated that 5.56 TAP has the best terminal ballistic properties of any 5.56mm load currently on the market."<o:p></o:p>







That looks familiar.:winkie:

faawrenchbndr
12-28-2009, 17:39
....Things you have never done might make for interesting errornet discussions.
And you can not give absolute advise to someone you know nothing about,
or about the quality of advise you are giving because you have no experience.

Bravo,......that's good posting! :thumbsup:

HAIL CAESAR
12-28-2009, 17:46
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles2006/200653121759.asp

"Like all kill houses, the new one in Germany has walls with two inches of wood, backed by steel thick enough to stop 5.56mm bullets. The Grafenwöhr is large to reflect the fact the American troops in Iraq often have to clear industrial facilities. Now there is a kill house big enough to do training for that."

Hmmmm. What I thought. Try again.

And you would need that type of construction if you were only firing .22 LR ammo. In a shoot house you are shooting ALOT of ammo, and usually at the same places. If you do not take drastic measures to enclose the area a bullet will finally bore it's way out.

HAIL CAESAR
12-28-2009, 17:48
Bravo,......that's good posting! :thumbsup:

Thank you. I am trying.:wavey:

lawman800
12-28-2009, 17:55
Wrong. Testing by Dr. G.K. Roberts and the FBI and has proven as much.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/zh2fk6nh50.jpg

You forgot the 10mm:

http://lgo.mit.edu/blog/drewhill/files/nuclear-explosion.jpg

Norcal911
12-28-2009, 18:03
Keg, I've had to sell my management on the 5.56. Here's the deal I make them. Set up a series of sheet rock walls, sheetrock, with studs for spacing and then more sheet rock. Repeat until you have 10 walls. Tell the LT/CPT/Chief etc that I will stand behind wall #5 while any of them takes one well aimed shot at me through the 5 walls with a 5.56...........but I will only do it if they will take the same place while I shoot one well aimed 9MM/.40/.45 shot at them. Obviously nobody takes me up on it because that would just be stupid but it starts the conversation then I do the demo. The most I've ever seen in wall #5 from the 5.56 is fragments, I've seen the 9MM go through 9 walls. This is not fancy ammo, just ball, although I get similar results with HP's. Can 5.56 go through walls? Yes. Does it go through less walls than most any pistol ammo? Yes. It is loud, oh well, deal with it. I'm a vetran, cop, and rifle instructor and I think the best HD weapon is a 5.56 rifle. I still practice with my pistol because I've always got it. If somebody is a proven shotgun expert and is more comfortable with it then I never dissuade them, but when I start from ground zero with a novice, I always try to point them in the direction of a rifle if they have the option-Norcal911

HAIL CAESAR
12-28-2009, 18:16
Norcal, I know a guy whose CCW is a Ruger Vaquero. His nightstand gun is a SxS shotgun.


Now that everyone is done laughing at this poor under-armed gent...you all need to see him shoot SAS matches with those guns. I'll never try to dissuade him!

Never tell anybody anything absolute unless you know that person, his needs, and his skill level. Never make broad assumptions.

Kegel
12-28-2009, 18:17
Keg, I've had to sell my management on the 5.56. Here's the deal I make them. Set up a series of sheet rock walls, sheetrock, with studs for spacing and then more sheet rock. Repeat until you have 10 walls. Tell the LT/CPT/Chief etc that I will stand behind wall #5 while any of them takes one well aimed shot at me through the 5 walls with a 5.56...........but I will only do it if they will take the same place while I shoot one well aimed 9MM/.40/.45 shot at them. Obviously nobody takes me up on it because that would just be stupid but it starts the conversation then I do the demo. The most I've ever seen in wall #5 from the 5.56 is fragments, I've seen the 9MM go through 9 walls. This is not fancy ammo, just ball, although I get similar results with HP's. Can 5.56 go through walls? Yes. Does it go through less walls than most any pistol ammo? Yes. It is loud, oh well, deal with it. I'm a vetran, cop, and rifle instructor and I think the best HD weapon is a 5.56 rifle. I still practice with my pistol because I've always got it. If somebody is a proven shotgun expert and is more comfortable with it then I never dissuade them, but when I start from ground zero with a novice, I always try to point them in the direction of a rifle if they have the option-Norcal911


How would you explain the box o truth links I posted? Rigged?

blueroot
12-28-2009, 19:00
<LINK rel=File-List href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5COwner%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><STYLE> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </STYLE> The equation for Force is:
<?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:p></o:p>
Force = Mass times acceleration. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Force is not an indicator of terminal ballistic properties.
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

How many times can I screw up in one thread? :)

It's been a while since physics, I admit. I should have looked everything up again. I was incorrectly remembering/combining force with kenetic energy. F = ma with Ke = (1/2)mv^2, and acceleration being a derivative of velocity. And it didn't help my poor brain that centripital force is F = (mv^2)/r. We'll call my last chart a kenetic energy ratio chart, since the 1/2 constant would cancel out and yield the same result.

Regardless, the two charts did make me see the difference in calibers and bullet weights and that even though the momentum differences aren't all that great, the kinetic energy behind them is drastically different.

lawman800
12-28-2009, 19:00
Rigged.

Gallium
12-28-2009, 19:12
How would you explain the box o truth links I posted? Rigged?


Instead of calling a bunch of well experienced folks here idiots, why not go out and conduct your own experiment? Nothing like seeing something for yourself 1st hand.

It's much harder to convince someone else of something you READ or HEARD about, than something you saw.

And it's far easier for you to arrive at your own conclusions about stuff you do, than what someone else did.


'Drew

MarkCO
12-28-2009, 19:18
All I can say is WOW! Some of you all need to retake HS physics. Some of you all need to pull your head out of your posterior cavities. I am literally too shocked at the ignorance to post anything more at this time.

blueroot
12-28-2009, 19:23
All I can say is WOW! Some of you all need to retake HS physics. Some of you all need to pull your head out of your posterior cavities. I am literally too shocked at the ignorance to post anything more at this time.

All I was trying to do is put some concrete numbers on things just to get ideas at how to think about why .223 is better than .40. What the heck is wrong with that?

Kegel
12-28-2009, 19:28
Instead of calling a bunch of well experienced folks here idiots, why not go out and conduct your own experiment? Nothing like seeing something for yourself 1st hand.

It's much harder to convince someone else of something you READ or HEARD about, than something you saw.

And it's far easier for you to arrive at your own conclusions about stuff you do, than what someone else did.


'Drew


Dont think I called anyone an idiot. Stick resorted to that. Of course, after observing some of the posters comprehension of high school physics, I may resort to that. :wavey:

Kegel
12-28-2009, 19:29
Rigged.


Too easy. The video sure as hell beats the cartoon chart someone posted.

HAIL CAESAR
12-28-2009, 19:30
How many times can I screw up in one thread? :)

It's been a while since physics, I admit. I should have looked everything up again. I was incorrectly remembering/combining force with kenetic energy. F = ma with Ke = (1/2)mv^2, and acceleration being a derivative of velocity. And it didn't help my poor brain that centripital force is F = (mv^2)/r. We'll call my last chart a kenetic energy ratio chart, since the 1/2 constant would cancel out and yield the same result.

Regardless, the two charts did make me see the difference in calibers and bullet weights and that even though the momentum differences aren't all that great, the kinetic energy behind them is drastically different.

If you say so.:faint:

All I can say is WOW! Some of you all need to retake HS physics. Some of you all need to pull your head out of your posterior cavities. I am literally too shocked at the ignorance to post anything more at this time.

It been a few years (decades) since HS.

blueroot
12-28-2009, 19:35
Of course, after observing some of the posters comprehension of high school physics, I may resort to that.

I'm a moron. I get it. Excuse me for making mistakes. Everyone is probably thankful I'm not a rocket scientist, eh? :)

Kegel
12-28-2009, 19:42
I'm a moron. I get it. Excuse me for making mistakes. Everyone is probably thankful I'm not a rocket scientist, eh? :)


No offense man. If you don't use it, you lose it. :wavey:

blueroot
12-28-2009, 19:45
No offense man. If you don't use it, you lose it. :wavey:

Indeed. I wonder if that's why I've been losing my hair too?

MarkCO
12-28-2009, 19:56
I'm a moron. I get it. Excuse me for making mistakes. Everyone is probably thankful I'm not a rocket scientist, eh? :)

No, you are not a moron. You at least realize your mistakes. However, if we could get you a card as a certified rocket scientist, you could do some good work for countires other than ours...:supergrin:

blueroot
12-28-2009, 20:02
if we could get you a card as a certified rocket scientist, you could do some good work for countires other than ours...:supergrin:

I'm game! I bet crashing rockets is almost more fun than not crashing rockets.

Molon
12-28-2009, 20:11
We'll call my last chart a kenetic energy ratio chart, since the 1/2 constant would cancel out and yield the same result.

Regardless, the two charts did make me see the difference in calibers and bullet weights and that even though the momentum differences aren't all that great, the kinetic energy behind them is drastically different.

Contrary to gun-rag BS and advertising propaganda from ammunition manufacturers, kinetic energy is not an indicator of terminal ballistic properties. Dr. Martin Fackler debunked this erroneous concept decades ago in his paper entitled, "What's Wrong With The Wound Ballistics Literature, And Why."

blueroot
12-28-2009, 20:17
Contrary to gun-rag BS and advertising propaganda from ammunition manufacturers, kinetic energy is not an indicator of terminal ballistic properties. Dr. Martin Fackler debunked this erroneous concept decades ago in his paper entitled, "What's Wrong With The Wound Ballistics Literature, And Why."

Thanks. I'll do some more research in the area, including looking up Dr. Fackler and that paper.

lawman800
12-28-2009, 20:19
Reading Ed Sanow's book on Handgun stopping power definitely opened my eyes to what the rags and factories have been putting out.

People dispute his findings too but compiling real street shootings with real police ammunition is about as good as it gets.

MarkCO
12-28-2009, 20:24
I was curious how many of you guys have an AR-15 as the primary home defense weapon? Also what kind of ammo do you use.

Options, must have options.

I consider my Firebird M4LE AR as primary, but in most cases it will likley be a G22 w/20 rounds of 180 grain Gold Dots for "investigation" purposes. If I KNOW my life, or the life or an inncoent is in danger, AR for sure is primary with 2 PMAGS (Firebird Coupler) of 50 grain Nolser Varmints Ballistic Tips. The polymer tip aids function and they don't get through 3 sheets of drywall (Yes, I tested it in a box!).

Blueroot, you were trying to get to Energy I assume. Energy has the velocity squared term. Energy is weight (in grains) times velocity squared over 450240. Force is mass times acceleration and unless we are using RPGs, we don't get much acceleration on bullets (at least not in exterior ballistics). But Hydro-static shock IS a big deal.

Bullets "incapacitate" in 3 general ways: Blood Out, Air In, Tissue damage. It is the "Tissue damage" one that trips most people up. Hydrostatic shock has a large affect on this as well. A lot of folks who like the light fast handgun bullets have blurred the line and beleive HS shock occur significantly at pistol caliber velocities. In actuality, HS shock is marginalized below about 2100 fps. This is because the shock wave does not propagate suitably past the immediate measureable crush cavities. You can still have the 3 methods of incapacitation, but the most prominant effect available starts to go away under 2100 fps. A full frontal pressure wave of 4 psi is the 50% fatality threshold. If you do the math, it becomes apparent why (in the medium of flesh) 2100 fps is the velocity necessary to propagate through a flesh and bone target.

But, what about shotguns? Well, due to the size and energy, they deliver a LOT more of what a handgun slug does, 3 to 5 times to be realistic. Payload dispersion (with shot) creates multiple permanent crush cavities that approaches the HS shock wave in terms of disrupting the organic cell function. With a slug, the pressure drop (blood) is so fast and rapid due to the large cut through the flesh, that black out occurs almost immediately in most cases.

Okay, back to normal now. Hope that helped someone.

blueroot
12-28-2009, 20:25
Reading Ed Sanow's book on Handgun stopping power definitely opened my eyes to what the rags and factories have been putting out.

Ah, cool. I'll have to look that up as well. Thanks.

For anyone that wants a quick link to the paper by Dr. Fackler...

http://rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

DrMaxit
12-28-2009, 20:26
Shoot for the hips. that will put your trajectory pointing toward the ground. Read that from Mas Ayob years ago and made sense to me. Plus I doubt a dude will be moving very much with a shattered hip and I can't think of more pain than that.

MarkCO
12-28-2009, 20:26
Thanks. I'll do some more research in the area, including looking up Dr. Fackler and that paper.

Read about the Fackler box as well. I have used one for a LOT of my testing, at least when I could not shoot goats and sheep.

crazypilot
12-28-2009, 20:32
Box o'truth.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Read it and learn. You shouldnt shoot your AR in the house unless you want to go deaf and kill the neighbors.

Get a suppressor. A pistol will still make you deaf.

Kentak
12-28-2009, 20:34
I won't definitively say an AR or something else is *always* the best HD weapon. Myself, I don't see the logic in choosing an AR over, say, a nice full size Glock full of expanding hollow points in your caliber of choice. Depends on your family situation, home floor plan, and your neighborhood. In a typical urban or suburban setting, I'd say go with the pistol. In a spread out rural area I might keep both handy--the pistol for maneuvering inside the house, and an AR or shotgun for investigating suspicious activity/noises outside the house. If you utilize a "safe room" strategy, and all the kiddies and grandma are inside, nothing beats a 12 ga while waiting for the cavalry to arrive.

blueroot
12-28-2009, 20:36
Hydrostatic shock has a large affect on this as well. A lot of folks who like the light fast handgun bullets have blurred the line and beleive HS shock occur significantly at pistol caliber velocities. In actuality, HS shock is marginalized below about 2100 fps. This is because the shock wave does not propagate suitably past the immediate measureable crush cavities. You can still have the 3 methods of incapacitation, but the most prominant effect available starts to go away under 2100 fps. A full frontal pressure wave of 4 psi is the 50% fatality threshold. If you do the math, it becomes apparent why (in the medium of flesh) 2100 fps is the velocity necessary to propagate through a flesh and bone target.

I find this is very interesting. Can't say I understand what makes 2100 fps the apparent necessary velocity yet, but hydrostatic shock sounds like something to read up on for sure.

HAIL CAESAR
12-28-2009, 20:37
Get a suppressor. A pistol will still make you deaf.

Don't feed the strays and they will eventually go away.:wavey:

I know, I feed into it sometimes myself.

Kentak
12-28-2009, 20:39
Shoot for the hips. that will put your trajectory pointing toward the ground. Read that from Mas Ayob years ago and made sense to me. Plus I doubt a dude will be moving very much with a shattered hip and I can't think of more pain than that.

Yes, I think the pelvis is a much overlooked aim point, although I understand the logic of center-mass in a stress situation. Lots of nerves in that area and the pain of shattered bone must be tremendous. Plus, lots of guys will surrender immediately if they see a red dot dancing around their zipper area.

RMTactical
12-28-2009, 20:40
Corrected? I think not.

Again. Dont shoot 5.56 in the house, youll kill the neighbors.

Box o truth. Box o truth.

:upeyes:

Petrie
12-28-2009, 20:59
OP here. I've never done penetration tests with various ammo other than shooting a 3/8 steel plate with .223 Wolf psp and having it damn near go through it at 200 yds. I guess I just assumed that since a 5.56/.223 fmj will penetrate body armor that a pistol round won't that the Rifle round will also go through more wall, neighbor, etc than a pistol. I appreciate the posts. From what I gather the 115 gr 9mm jhp I use in my pistol might have more penetration than the 55 gr fmj I shoot in my AR. One thing that bothered me was how the law might view the use of an AR as a home defense weapon. I can just see some anti-gun prosecuter holding up an AR in a courtroom and convincing a likeminded jury that only a mademan would have a loaded "assualt weapon" next to the bed. I live in a residential neighborhood and my AR is an A2 rifle so it's not as appropriate as an M4 style rifle would be for CQ encounters.

RMTactical
12-28-2009, 21:07
OP here. I've never done penetration tests with various ammo other than shooting a 3/8 steel plate with .223 Wolf psp and having it damn near go through it at 200 yds. I guess I just assumed that since a 5.56/.223 fmj will penetrate body armor that a pistol round won't that the Rifle round will also go through more wall, neighbor, etc than a pistol. I appreciate the posts. From what I gather the 115 gr 9mm jhp I use in my pistol might have more penetration than the 55 gr fmj I shoot in my AR. One thing that bothered me was how the law might view the use of an AR as a home defense weapon. I can just see some anti-gun prosecuter holding up an AR in a courtroom and convincing a likeminded jury that only a mademan would have a loaded "assualt weapon" next to the bed. I live in a residential neighborhood and my AR is an A2 rifle so it's not as appropriate as an M4 style rifle would be for CQ encounters.

You have to make that decision for yourself, however...

You are either legally justified or you are not. I won't worry too much about going to court or some slight damage to my hearing (which could be worse with a pistol anyways) until after I have survived the lethal encounter.

AR15's are much more mainstream these days anyways. People see them differently than they did even 10 years ago.

Molon
12-28-2009, 21:12
Thanks. I'll do some more research in the area, including looking up Dr. Fackler and that paper.

Dr. Fackler has also debunked the "hydrostatic shock" nonsense. You might also find it interesting to research the works of Dr. Fackler and his colleagues of the International Wound Ballistics Association in which they thoroughly discredit many of the claims of Marshall & Sanow.

MarkCO
12-28-2009, 21:56
Dr. Fackler has also debunked the "hydrostatic shock" nonsense. You might also find it interesting to research the works of Dr. Fackler and his colleagues of the International Wound Ballistics Association in which they thoroughly discredit many of the claims of Marshall & Sanow.

Fackler does not call HS Shock nonsense, just as it relates to pistol caliber cartridges and how the wounds for same are treated. The IWBA work is good, and another data point, but M&S don't really "claim" much, they presented DATA. It is other people interpreting their work who made most of the claims.

Go search for Marshalls posts here on GT from about 10 years ago if you want to know what he "claimed."

Glolt20-91
12-28-2009, 23:00
That looks familiar.:winkie:

I've only copied a few posts since joining GT, but that was an excellent post, and keeper, from an excellent thread that I learned a lot from. :thumbsup:

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
12-28-2009, 23:37
Dr. Fackler has also debunked the "hydrostatic shock" nonsense. You might also find it interesting to research the works of Dr. Fackler and his colleagues of the International Wound Ballistics Association in which they thoroughly discredit many of the claims of Marshall & Sanow.

Some added material from

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

The other popular contemporary misconception results from the assumption that the kinetic energy of the bullet is "transferred" to the target, thereby somehow killing it through "hydrostatic shock".
I don't know where this term originated, but it is pseudoscience babble. In the first place, these are dynamic - not static - events. Moreover, "hydrostatic shock" is an oxymoron. Shock, in the technical sense, indicates a mechanical wave traveling in excess of the inherent sound speed of the material; it can't be static. This may be a flow related wave like a bow shock on the nose of a bullet in air or it may be a supersonic acoustic wave traveling through a solid after impact. In terms of bullets striking tissue, shock is never encountered. The sound speed of water (which is very close to that of soft tissue) is about 4900 fps. Even varmint bullets do not have an impact velocity this high, let alone a penetration velocity exceeding 4900 fps. Unless the bullet can penetrate faster than the inherent sound speed of the medium through which it is passing, you will not observe a shock wave. Instead, the bullet impact produces an acoustic wave which moves ahead of the penetration. This causes no damage.


From
Gunshot Wound Ballistics
M. Bradley Evans, M.D.
February 12, 2004
Baylor College of Medicine Conference

Entrance wounds are typically punched out, round to oval in shape, with a sharp beveled edge. The exit wounds are excavated with a cone-line appearance and a variable amount of comminution and, generally speaking, the greater the bullet, forming what is called a temporary cavity as well as the smaller permanent cavity as can be seen in the next couple of slides. A controversial subject is that of shock waves which are present and travel ahead of the bullet which velocity the greater the comminution at entry and exit.
The damage which is created by a projectile is caused by three different mechanisms. The first is laceration and crushing which is the sole method by which low-velocity handguns cause damage to tissue. Higher velocity weapons will stretch the tissue in the wake of the last a few microseconds. It was once theorized that these shock waves could cause damage to the tissues; however, this has been refuted in recent studies.

Bob :cowboy:

Norcal911
12-28-2009, 23:51
HC, ya I get your drift on those single action guys, many of them are no joke with a single and a SXS. Anybody who can sling a gun like some of those SASS guys I've seen surely does not need instruction or advice from somebody like me. I was just trying to make a ballistic point to Keg. I can't comment on the box of truth, all I can comment on is what I've replicated at the range numerous times, pistols tend to overpenetrate much more than a 5.56 round. I like the AR (or mini-14, etc) for HD or patrol cop like scenarios, especially when I'm training a novice. I think they work quite well and are user friendly. Being well trained and mentally ready is far more important than what tool you choose to use. The best tool is the one which is available, usually a pistol for me but I prefer the rifle. I like my AR to be available and I have no qualms about grabbing it for an indoor or outdoor encounter. Now 308may be pushing it for an indoor encounter but everything has a place and I live in the country-Norcal911

Alaskapopo
12-29-2009, 00:03
There are better choices out there for HD.I prefer a railed pistol or a shotgun/w-light.My HD is a G23 or a mossy 590 w-low recoil 00 buck.YMMV.'08.

Actually an AR in .223 loaded with 75 grain tap is the best choice going for home defense. Minimal risk of over penetration (less than common handgun rounds) 30 rounds of effective fight stopping bullets, low recoil and a gun that is as easy for a novice to shoot as a 22 rifle. Beats a pistol and a shotgun.
Pat

kirgi08
12-29-2009, 00:56
Actually an AR in .223 loaded with 75 grain tap is the best choice going for home defense. Minimal risk of over penetration (less than common handgun rounds) 30 rounds of effective fight stopping bullets, low recoil and a gun that is as easy for a novice to shoot as a 22 rifle. Beats a pistol and a shotgun.
Pat

With our layout 12ga/pistol will do the job.'08. :supergrin:

Alaskapopo
12-29-2009, 01:00
With our layout 12ga/pistol will do the job.'08. :supergrin:

I am sure it will but I am sure a .223 would do well for you as well.
Pat

Gallium
12-29-2009, 01:30
Actually an AR in .223 loaded with 75 grain tap is the best choice going for home defense. Minimal risk of over penetration (less than common handgun rounds) 30 rounds of effective fight stopping bullets, low recoil and a gun that is as easy for a novice to shoot as a 22 rifle. Beats a pistol and a shotgun.
Pat


Having trained with all of the above (AR, semi auto in service grade caliber and shotgun with 00 buck + low recoil slugs) I would have to agree with you on those points of recoil, point-ability, one shot stopping ability and round count. In my own house, I am not overly concerned about over-penetration unless it is due to location of other lawful occupants.

Admittedly, when I train, I on occasion force myself to do everything as if I were left handed (I am right handed), just to remind myself of how complicated it might be for a new shooter, and how I can possibly explain things from that perspective in a clear and concise way. The one hangup I have seen with long guns (any) over a Glock for the learning shooter is the manual external safety. Time and time again in classes (at the student or instructor level) I have seen a bunch of folks -when some mild level of stress is induced in the training, forget to disable the safety. For myself it's gotten pretty automatic - where if I am off target, the safety is engaged; and if I am going up on target the safety is disengaged. I've also seen cases where the gun came down and the safety was not engaged (I've been guilty of that one a few times myself in the past!).

I don't keep a long gun cruiser safe or cruiser ready in the house because we have a bunch of kids running underfoot, but I do have an unloaded AR + mounted flashlight next to/under the bed, with 28 rounds of Federal x 2 mags in each of the safes on each living floor ( + two like wise caliber-ed Glocks in each of those safes).

If something truly awful happened and I had to roll out a gun, my absolute 1st choice would be the AR, and while it is the platform I am LEAST familiar with (pistol/shotgun/AR) - from a mechanical perspective, I am fairly proficient with driving this gun as well as I am handgun/shotgun, and it's the gun I recommend to someone who is particularly concerned about having a last line of defense in their home.

'Drew

Gallium
12-29-2009, 01:39
...and for the folks that say an AR will damage your hearing if shot indoors. Virtually any un-suppressed gun with a primer fired smokeless powder round is going to be above 140dB, which is just ****ing loud. If you've ******* deep in trouble which your ears will take the punishment you brain will most likely not process it.

'Drew

lawman800
12-29-2009, 05:10
Shoot for the hips. that will put your trajectory pointing toward the ground. Read that from Mas Ayob years ago and made sense to me. Plus I doubt a dude will be moving very much with a shattered hip and I can't think of more pain than that.

Actually, the pelvis was an alternate target for our training when COM does not work to put the perp down. However, the new training is immediate failure drills to the head instead of anywhere else.

We used to be taught to shoot the pelvis, shatter it, and drop the assailant. Without a pelvis, the legs give since there is no mechanical support for them and the whole body drops. However, the upper body is fully functional and if the perp has a gun, he can still shoot at you.

The police sergeant demonstrated the concept it amply in putting down that POS Hasan at Fort Hood. She was hit twice in the legs, went down, kept firing while on the ground and put Hasan down.

It's still a viable point of aim to take away someone's mechanical base for movement but it will not take him out of the fight for sure.

Alaskapopo
12-29-2009, 05:15
Another thing to consider is not many rounds outside of a 12 gauge slug will shatter a pelvis. Handgun rounds can and have bounced off or poked holes in it.
pat

lawman800
12-29-2009, 05:38
A 12 gauge slug definitely does it.

HAIL CAESAR
12-29-2009, 09:10
HC, ya I get your drift on those single action guys, many of them are no joke with a single and a SXS. Anybody who can sling a gun like some of those SASS guys I've seen surely does not need instruction or advice from somebody like me. I was just trying to make a ballistic point to Keg. I can't comment on the box of truth, all I can comment on is what I've replicated at the range numerous times, pistols tend to overpenetrate much more than a 5.56 round. I like the AR (or mini-14, etc) for HD or patrol cop like scenarios, especially when I'm training a novice. I think they work quite well and are user friendly. Being well trained and mentally ready is far more important than what tool you choose to use. The best tool is the one which is available, usually a pistol for me but I prefer the rifle. I like my AR to be available and I have no qualms about grabbing it for an indoor or outdoor encounter. Now 308may be pushing it for an indoor encounter but everything has a place and I live in the country-Norcal911
I was actually agreeing with you in your statement how you would never try and dissuade anyone who is a proven expert with a type of weapon.:wavey:

I reread my post and it did sound like I was being sarcastic, the way I wrote it, but I was absolutely agreeing with you.

The last line in my post "

Never tell anybody anything absolute unless you know that person, his needs, and his skill level. Never make broad assumptions."

was meant for others not you.:wavey:

Norcal911
12-29-2009, 09:25
HC, no worries, we are usually in agreement. It was late and not much was making sense last night-Norcal911

HAIL CAESAR
12-29-2009, 18:14
I have seen a bunch of folks -when some mild level of stress is induced in the training, forget to disable the safety
'Drew

I've seen that too.

...and for the folks that say an AR will damage your hearing if shot indoors. Virtually any un-suppressed gun with a primer fired smokeless powder round is going to be above 140dB, which is just ****ing loud. If you've ******* deep in trouble which your ears will take the punishment you brain will most likely not process it.

'Drew

Very true. Any major caliber weapon is going to leave a bit of ringing of the ears when fired indoors. But in my experiance and anyone I have actually talked too will say "I don't remember how loud it was" or "It wasn't that loud." This is usually the case when the pucker factor happens.

Actually, the pelvis was an alternate target for our training when COM does not work to put the perp down.

You must be as old as I am. :wavey:

Another thing to consider is not many rounds outside of a 12 gauge slug will shatter a pelvis. Handgun rounds can and have bounced off or poked holes in it.
pat

Yeap, you are correct.

HC, no worries, we are usually in agreement. It was late and not much was making sense last night-Norcal911

Just making sure I didn't come off wrong again. I'm notorious for typing something that folks take to heart the exact 180 degrees of what I meant. It doesn't happen in person, but I type like I talk. I guess with the tone and inflection of my voice not being in type my script is taken wrong. :wavey:

lawman800
12-29-2009, 20:43
I am probably older than you, Caesar. Just sayin...:wavey:

HAIL CAESAR
12-29-2009, 20:57
I am probably older than you, Caesar. Just sayin...:wavey:

For your sake I hope your not!!! :tongueout:

I'm feeling real old today, especially after a ER visit and a long past couple of days.

lawman800
12-29-2009, 21:49
For your sake I hope your not!!! :tongueout:

I'm feeling real old today, especially after a ER visit and a long past couple of days.

Trust me, I know how you feel. Had an ER visit in May along with a 2-day stay. I hate hospitals.

Molon
01-02-2010, 13:46
. . . Hydro-static shock IS a big deal. . .




<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5COwner%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PlaceType"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PlaceName"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PostalCode"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="State"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"></o:smarttagtype><!--><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]>******** classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> As I stated previously, Dr. Martin Fackler has repeatedly refuted the ridiculous shock wave myth as a wounding mechanism for small arms fire. The FBI and Duncan MacPherson have also dismissed the shock wave myth. For those of you more interested in facts than all of the gun-rag BS being posted in this thread, you can read refutations of the shock wave myth in the following:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
[I]The “Shock Wave” Myth<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
By Dr. Martin Fackler
<o:p> </o:p>
Wound Ballistics Review, Winter 1991 and the Journal of Trauma, (29[10]: 1455, 1989).
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Ballistic Injury<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
By Dr. Martin Fackler
<o:p> </o:p>
Annals of Emergency Medicine, December 1986
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
by M.L. Fackler, M.D.<o:p></o:p>
Letterman Army Institute of Research<o:p></o:p>
Division of Military Trauma Research<o:p></o:p>
Presidio of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">San Francisco</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">California</st1:state> <st1:postalcode w:st="on">94219</st1:postalcode></st1:place><o:p></o:p>
Institute Report No. 239<o:p></o:p>
July 1987<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Bullet Penetration<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
by Duncan MacPherson<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness<o:p></o:p>
[I]<o:p> </o:p>
by Special Agent Urey W. Patrick<o:p></o:p>
Firearms Training Unit<o:p></o:p>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">FBI</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">Academy</st1:placetype></st1:place><o:p></o:p>

Molon
01-02-2010, 13:49
. . . M&S don't really "claim" much, they presented DATA.

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5COwner%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> From [I]Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 4, Issue 2<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
“Maarten van Maanen has demonstrated conclusively that the Marshall-Sanow “data base” contains impossible results that totally discredit the claims made for it by its authors and their advocates.”<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Martin L. Fackler, MD<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>



Again, for those of you more interested in facts than gun-rag BS, you can read about the “fabricated nature” of the Marshall & Sanow “data base” in the following articles:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Undeniable Evidence<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
By Martin L. Fackler, MD<o:p></o:p>
Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 4, Issue 2<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Discrepancies in the Marshall & Sanow “Data Base”: An Evaluation Over Time<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
By Maarten van Maanen<o:p></o:p>
Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 4, Issue 2<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The Marshall & Sanow “Data” – Statistical Analysis Tells the Ugly Story<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
By Duncan MacPherson<o:p></o:p>
Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 4, Issue 2<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

DScottHewitt
01-02-2010, 16:40
Schooled? LOL. Hardly fool. Show me something other than gelatin blocks.

Stick just keeps saying blah blah blah but only thing he can come up with is.....nothing? With 10000 posts you would think he would have something. Too busy posting and not enough shooting I guess. LOL

Box o truth.

Dont shoot 5.56 in the house.

When you get your Google repaired, do a search for 5.56mm shot through various building materials. M193 and M855 break up. Maybe your interwebz is still under warranty, and you can get your Google fixed for free.

DScottHewitt
01-02-2010, 16:49
Schooled? LOL. Hardly fool. Show me something other than gelatin blocks.

Stick just keeps saying blah blah blah but only thing he can come up with is.....nothing? With 10000 posts you would think he would have something. Too busy posting and not enough shooting I guess. LOL

Box o truth.

Dont shoot 5.56 in the house.



Maybe AK will or will not feel like sharing REAL WORLD experiences with the effectiveness of 5.56mm

DScottHewitt
01-02-2010, 16:53
How would you explain the box o truth links I posted? Rigged?

One person's opinion?

DScottHewitt
01-02-2010, 16:55
Dont think I called anyone an idiot. Stick resorted to that. Of course, after observing some of the posters comprehension of high school physics, I may resort to that. :wavey:


You're right. You didn't call anyone an "idiot". The word you used was "fool".



Schooled? LOL. Hardly fool. Show me something other than gelatin blocks.

Stick just keeps saying blah blah blah but only thing he can come up with is.....nothing? With 10000 posts you would think he would have something. Too busy posting and not enough shooting I guess. LOL

Box o truth.

Dont shoot 5.56 in the house.

DScottHewitt
01-02-2010, 17:08
Thanks. I'll do some more research in the area, including looking up Dr. Fackler and that paper.

He did a lot of "on the scene" research as a Doc in Nam.

Based on his work:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/DScottHewitt/ammo_project_ammoOraclePics_wund5.jpg

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/DScottHewitt/M193.jpg

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/DScottHewitt/M855.jpg

Fragmentation results in gelatin:

{77grain 5.56mm}

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/DScottHewitt/Ammo77grmain.jpg

{Various through a LOADED AK-47 magazine into Gelatin}

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/DScottHewitt/AmmoThroughMag.jpg

More pretty "cartoon" charts:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/DScottHewitt/AmmoWoundChannels.jpg

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/DScottHewitt/woundprofilesafterwallbarrier.jpg

DScottHewitt
01-02-2010, 17:16
Ah, cool. I'll have to look that up as well. Thanks.

For anyone that wants a quick link to the paper by Dr. Fackler...

http://rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

Bookmarked.





Here are some pages related to AR-15 ammo and stuff I bookmarked:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=283506

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=427702

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=385548

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=430256

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=372350

http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=16

DScottHewitt
01-02-2010, 17:29
There is also a new round that NSWC Crane is working up for SEALs and such. For BETTER intermediate barrier penetration. Like through walls.....


I'll see what I can find.....


EDIT TO ADD:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3538301

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantrysmallarms/tuesdaysessioniii8524.pdf

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22379

http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?p=76104

Molon
01-02-2010, 17:34
2925+ fps from a 14" barrel.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/4hdg0bnkks.jpg

DScottHewitt
01-02-2010, 17:48
2925+ fps from a 14" barrel.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/4hdg0bnkks.jpg



Special propellant. I wonder if it actually has a LOWER MV from a 20" barrel.....

NDC187
01-03-2010, 16:28
Birdshot? I don't even load it, makes it too heavy. I just rack it a few times and hope nobody calls my bluff.:whistling:

I just grab my chain saw off the night stand and crank that up to clear my house. sends them running everytime :tongueout:

lawman800
01-03-2010, 18:45
The chainsaw has to be attached to your hand and you still have to have a shotgun in your other hand to fully fend off the Army of Darkness.

Molon
01-15-2010, 11:31
Special propellant. I wonder if it actually has a LOWER MV from a 20" barrel.....


Not sure if serious . . .

Javelin
01-15-2010, 18:29
I just grab my chain saw off the night stand and crank that up to clear my house. sends them running everytime :tongueout:

:rofl:

Alaskapopo
01-15-2010, 18:54
Special propellant. I wonder if it actually has a LOWER MV from a 20" barrel.....

I doubt it. It takes a lot of barrel to completely consume all the powder for a .223. Even a .22lr barrel needs to be nearly 30 inches long before it actually starts to lose velocity due to the extra lenght.
Pat

High Altitude
01-15-2010, 19:08
I just grab my chain saw off the night stand and crank that up to clear my house. sends them running everytime :tongueout:

This works for me............ lol

http://sas.guidespot.com/bundles/guides_ha/assets/widget_agXS5NwnngdQQogJeAypBK.jpg

High Altitude
01-15-2010, 19:15
I agree 100% but keep having bad dreams of the DA holding up my AR in court while I am defending myself even though it was a good shoot..................


Actually an AR in .223 loaded with 75 grain tap is the best choice going for home defense. Minimal risk of over penetration (less than common handgun rounds) 30 rounds of effective fight stopping bullets, low recoil and a gun that is as easy for a novice to shoot as a 22 rifle. Beats a pistol and a shotgun.
Pat

NeverMore1701
01-15-2010, 19:33
Any non-braindead defense attorney will be able to produce tons of evidence pointing to the fact that a 5.56mm carbine is one of the MOST responsible options out there.

moncoacp
01-15-2010, 19:36
I have an EOTech on my AR (16" barrel) and it is very fast, no doubt, when there is space to swing around and not worry about banging into walls and bookshelves. At very close quarters (five feet or so), aiming isn't quite the same issue and being able to use the pistol one handed while the other hand does something else seems like an advantage.

It really does seem like the ideal scenario is a pistol on the hip and an AR in the hand, but when you roll out of bed and have to grab something fast, it is probably one or the other.

yes, but my jammies don't allow me to carry IWB.

HAIL CAESAR
01-15-2010, 22:19
I doubt it. It takes a lot of barrel to completely consume all the powder for a .223. Even a .22lr barrel needs to be nearly 30 inches long before it actually starts to lose velocity due to the extra lenght.
Pat

I agree with you, but it all depends on the type of propellant used. Especially if you reload.
And most (I believe) .22LR Rifle ammo reaches maximum velocity around 22 to 26 inches...
.22LR Pistol ammo considerably less.

Anyway there was a story in G&A a decade or so back that the author started off with really long barrels, a chrony, and a hacksaw. It was an interesting read. I'll have to see if I can dig it out of the gun rag library (basement).

DScottHewitt
01-16-2010, 03:18
Not sure if serious . . .

Well, yeah. I kinda was. It is loaded with a special powder. And optimized for about a 14" barrel. {Like right around M4 length.....}

Nestor
01-16-2010, 11:24
For inside the house scenario I would simply stick to the shotgun.
First, the chances of the home invasion scenario are low in general.
For some strange reason guys are creating fantasies about some extra complicated encounters for which they will be super duper prepared.
Of course in those fantasies the BG's are coming in waves against the deadly placed and righteous fire of the home owner.
It must be during the night.
The rest of the family is nearly non existent - they are not running all over the place, they all are alive and for sure the brave home owner will pick them up as he goes in the crusade style raid all over the place.
In reality most likely You will be surprised and the members of your family may run all over the place in panic, they may be wounded or dead as well.
Your heart will be sitting nicely in your throat pumping the blood to your body at 160 per minute.
Your fingers will be stiff and it will be very difficult to fight the tunnel vision that You will most likely experience.
The best thing You can do is to learn your house.
Do it during the night and in the middle of the day.
Close your eyes and walk/crawl/ around the place.
Have a spare cell phone near or on You all over the time.
Do not expect that the family members will cooperate with You if the SHTF scenario will take place.
Educate them, but expect the worse.
Be prepared to loose something and not in the military sense of the word (lost battle), but after-match experience will suck, no matter what.
And remember that in most scenarios 2-3 shots is all what is needed to finish the home invasion one way or the other.
Now I hope that nobody will ever experience such thing.

HAIL CAESAR
01-16-2010, 15:18
For inside the house scenario I would simply stick to the shotgun.
First, the chances of the home invasion scenario are low in general.
For some strange reason guys are creating fantasies about some extra complicated encounters for which they will be super duper prepared.
Of course in those fantasies the BG's are coming in waves against the deadly placed and righteous fire of the home owner.
It must be during the night.
The rest of the family is nearly non existent - they are not running all over the place, they all are alive and for sure the brave home owner will pick them up as he goes in the crusade style raid all over the place.
In reality most likely You will be surprised and the members of your family may run all over the place in panic, they may be wounded or dead as well.
Your heart will be sitting nicely in your throat pumping the blood to your body at 160 per minute.
Your fingers will be stiff and it will be very difficult to fight the tunnel vision that You will most likely experience.
The best thing You can do is to learn your house.
Do it during the night and in the middle of the day.
Close your eyes and walk/crawl/ around the place.
Have a spare cell phone near or on You all over the time.
Do not expect that the family members will cooperate with You if the SHTF scenario will take place.
Educate them, but expect the worse.
Be prepared to loose something and not in the military sense of the word (lost battle), but after-match experience will suck, no matter what.
And remember that in most scenarios 2-3 shots is all what is needed to finish the home invasion one way or the other.
Now I hope that nobody will ever experience such thing.

:rofl: So true. Did you write all that yourself? Because if you did it was great!

Anyway, I blame video games!!:wavey:

ghostman1960
01-16-2010, 15:39
.50 BMG for the win.:rofl:

lawman800
01-16-2010, 15:43
In my home invasion scenario, there are hundreds of zombies and I take out wave after wave with fellow survivors of the zombie uprising and then I go hide in the attic and pull up the ladder cord and survive while the others go in the basement and perish. Those stupidheads!:supergrin:

Alaskapopo
01-16-2010, 16:00
I was woken up a month or so ago to a noise that sounded to me like someone trying to kick my door in. It ended up just being slow sliding off the roof. But it took me a few moments to wake up, Grab my pistol. (my long guns are in the safe not because I think the pistol is better but rather because I don't feel my area is dangerious enough to warrant leaving an AR out and handy) and then start to look around. You will not be able to go from a dead sleep to fighting ready instantly. At least I am not. It takes a bit to orient.
Pat

Alaskapopo
01-16-2010, 16:20
.50 BMG for the win.:rofl:

The 50 is for the Jurrasic park adventure when a T Rex attacks the house.
Pat

Novocaine
01-16-2010, 18:56
Scenarios shmenarios. Someone wants to kill me I want to have the most effective weapon I can get, period. The reason I choose AR is because Minigun is illegal.

1985_CarbStang
01-16-2010, 19:39
I think FOR ME the AR is going to be an overall better home defensive weapon than a handgun. Ballistics, flashlight, blunt force (stock strikes, possible with the flash hider like we do on our SWAT team), way easier to point shoot due to longer length. Honestly a shotty would do mostly the same thing except maybe the flashlight due to the cost of a light bearing fore grip. Just my .02

Nestor
01-16-2010, 19:40
:rofl: So true. Did you write all that yourself? Because if you did it was great!

Anyway, I blame video games!!:wavey:

I'm just reading thru this forum quite often and barely using my brain.
Obviously it's enough.

lawman800
01-16-2010, 20:12
The 50 is for the Jurrasic park adventure when a T Rex attacks the house.
Pat

Personally, I wouldn't want to take on the T-Rex. I just turn off all the lights, sounds, and hunker down in the house and stay very still because they go on movement. Make the target unattractive and it will go to the next house that has light, noise and movement.

It's the same concept as car thieves or other predators, just make your target less attractive and they'll go elsewhere.

Stupid T-Rex.:steamed: They always gotta ruin my night.

BMG22
01-16-2010, 23:37
I have a pet T-Rex. His name is Billy. He's pretty much the ultimate home defense weapon. He's good with the dog, and great with kids. Although I did catch him destroying the neighbors the other day.....

"Billy! Get out of there! Bad dino, no kitten!"

lawman800
01-17-2010, 02:12
I used to have a pet T-Rex, but taking it for walks was too much of a pain with it eating random pet dogs in the park and that tendency to smash cars under its feet... my insurance company had enough and said they won't underwrite my homeowner's insurance with the T-Rex in my backyard.

I told them the gardener could have gone anywhere... maybe he's on vacation? Who knows... just because he was last seen cleaning the grass around the T-Rex kennel....

kirgi08
01-17-2010, 03:30
I used to have a pet T-Rex, but taking it for walks was too much of a pain with it eating random pet dogs in the park and that tendency to smash cars under its feet... my insurance company had enough and said they won't underwrite my homeowner's insurance with the T-Rex in my backyard.

I told them the gardener could have gone anywhere... maybe he's on vacation? Who knows... just because he was last seen cleaning the grass around the T-Rex kennel....

Single Malt?.'08. :cool:

lawman800
01-17-2010, 04:02
Glen Livet... ran out of Glen Fiddich.

internal
01-17-2010, 09:23
This thread sucks now.

Can't we talk about AR's or something?

lawman800
01-17-2010, 09:31
Why would you want to talk about ARs in an AR thread?

internal
01-17-2010, 09:35
:tongueout:

On the different note, I've been finding XM193 for $150 per 500 lately.

There was a few online outfits selling it for $150 per 500 (sold out) and one of the local stores had a sell on ammo and Xm193 was $6 per 20 ($300 per 1000).

Ammo seems to be coming down in price!

Nestor
01-17-2010, 10:22
This thread sucks now.

Can't we talk about AR's or something?

Your AR isn't tactical enough.

HAIL CAESAR
02-27-2010, 23:57
How would you explain the box o truth links I posted? Rigged?

How would I explain the Box of Truth....not very well done and not realistic.

There are several test done on TV shows in the last couple of months with drywall set 8 to 12 feet apart to simulate a actual room size and then shot. 5.56 rounds penetrated less than 9mm or 45 ACP. The only thing that penetrated less is birdshot out of a shotgun.

The Box Of "Truth" :rofl: put the sheets only inches apart simulating a mouse's apartment. The 5.56 bullets didn't get a chance to tumble or to come apart.

Moral of the story, if you live in a house with rooms that are 4 inches by 4 inches.......don't fire any gun inside.:rofl:

I just got done remodeling my wife's business and had a bunch of extra drywall left. I thought" Oh, this will be fun!". I won't post any results as it wasn't "scientific" enough for everyone here and it will just result in a war. But I just set them up at 12 foot intervals and shot them myself with a couple of buddies ( beer and steaks followed:supergrin:).

9mm ball, 115 XTP, 124 GS, and 115 Corbon.

45 ball, 200 SWC handloads to 800 fps, 200 and 230 XTP, 230 GS, and Taurus 185 Hex.

.223/5.56, WWB 55 ball, XM193, 55 Ballistic Tips, 55 BlitzKing, 52 MatchKing, 75 TAP, 69 MatchKings, 55 PSP.

Of all these rounds I would want a .223 if I lived in a crackerbox apartment and I, or my neighbor, just had to shoot inside.

crazymoose
02-28-2010, 00:45
There are several test done on TV shows in the last couple of months with drywall set 8 to 12 feet apart to simulate a actual room size and then shot. 5.56 rounds penetrated less than 9mm or 45 ACP. The only thing that penetrated less is birdshot out of a shotgun.

The Box Of "Truth" :rofl: put the sheets only inches apart simulating a mouse's apartment. The 5.56 bullets didn't get a chance to tumble or to come apart.

Excellent point. I admire what the Box O' Truth tries to do, but they have absolutely bad methodology on this one.

DScottHewitt
03-03-2010, 04:05
I doubt it. It takes a lot of barrel to completely consume all the powder for a .223. Even a .22lr barrel needs to be nearly 30 inches long before it actually starts to lose velocity due to the extra lenght.
Pat

BUT, the propellant was "optimized" for a specified barrel length. Meaning it might have the best velocity in that length, and fall off SOME in the next six inches.....

scottd907
03-03-2010, 14:30
I used my AR as my home defense. My flash light is the best thing iv added to make it a better HD weapon.

nipperwolf
03-03-2010, 18:35
BUT, the propellant was "optimized" for a specified barrel length


:dunno:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/nippr/web/223vel.jpg

FAS1
03-04-2010, 07:03
It really does seem like the ideal scenario is a pistol on the hip and an AR in the hand, but when you roll out of bed and have to grab something fast, it is probably one or the other.


How do you guys that have AR's for a HD weapon store them where they are not accessable to kids and such, but available at a moments notice? With a handgun, it's a little easier to secure and still be very accessable. Same would apply to a shotgun I guess.

HAIL CAESAR
03-04-2010, 08:05
How do you guys that have AR's for a HD weapon store them where they are not accessible to kids and such, but available at a moments notice? With a handgun, it's a little easier to secure and still be very accessible. Same would apply to a shotgun I guess.

Kids are grown and gone.:dancingbanana:

lawman800
03-04-2010, 08:51
How do you guys that have AR's for a HD weapon store them where they are not accessable to kids and such, but available at a moments notice? With a handgun, it's a little easier to secure and still be very accessable. Same would apply to a shotgun I guess.

Take it out at night, put it back in the safe in the morning. Unless your kid has a habit of walking into your room while you are sleeping and taking your AR that is next to you, it should be okay.

Or just sling it on you and walk around the house all day with it.

djegators
03-04-2010, 09:08
Wait, you guys don't sleep cuddled up with your ARs???

FAS1
03-04-2010, 09:12
Kids are grown and gone.:dancingbanana:


Mine too. Awful quiet being empty nesters :quiet:

What about maids or other sevice people such as plumbers, etc? We also have friends and relatives that bring their young kids over from time to time and I have to think about whether my shotgun (no AR 15, YET :supergrin: ) is put away.

lawman800
03-04-2010, 09:17
Wait, you guys don't sleep cuddled up with your ARs???

I have a friend that does that. No joke.

djegators
03-04-2010, 09:22
I have a friend that does that. No joke.

My Noveske comes home today..don't think it will be sleeping alone tonight. :embarassed:

HAIL CAESAR
03-04-2010, 09:39
Mine too. Awful quiet being empty nesters :quiet:

What about maids or other service people such as plumbers, etc? We also have friends and relatives that bring their young kids over from time to time and I have to think about whether my shotgun (no AR 15, YET :supergrin: ) is put away.

I'm loving the "empty nest"!!!!

We have had a maid but wife fires them at will.

I have safes that I lock the majority up. But I have several stashed around the house at all times.

HAIL CAESAR
03-04-2010, 09:40
I have a friend that does that. No joke.

If he literally does that I would find a new friend.:therapy:

Kegel
03-04-2010, 17:18
Kids are grown and gone.:dancingbanana:


Company LOVES to see an assault rifle out in the open. ROFL. Perfect home defense weapon.....if you live in a warzone and dont mind shooting the neighbors kids next door. :rofl:

HAIL CAESAR
03-04-2010, 18:02
Company LOVES to see an assault rifle out in the open. ROFL. Perfect home defense weapon.....if you live in a warzone and dont mind shooting the neighbors kids next door. :rofl:

GOD has a special place in his heart for morons. So, thankfully you are loved.

mvician
03-04-2010, 18:18
Since when is an AR15 an assault rifle? :upeyes:

HAIL CAESAR
03-04-2010, 18:26
Since when is an AR15 an assault rifle? :upeyes:

:upeyes: What do you guys always say??? Don't feed the TROLLS.:tongueout:

He'll feel like responding with something he doesn't know what he is talking about.

AK_Stick
03-04-2010, 19:13
Company LOVES to see an assault rifle out in the open. ROFL. Perfect home defense weapon.....if you live in a warzone and dont mind shooting the neighbors kids next door. :rofl:



I would have thought after getting corrected this many times, you'd have stopped spouting incorrect crap......


Guess that was too much to hope for.

K. Foster
03-04-2010, 19:28
Company LOVES to see an assault rifle out in the open. ROFL. Perfect home defense weapon.....if you live in a warzone and dont mind shooting the neighbors kids next door. :rofl:

Other than my wife, I don’t have people hanging out in my bedroom. If “company” did see it, they wouldn’t be surprised. If seeing guns offends someone, they are free to leave my property.
I’ve read several of your posts. Are you ever going to contribute anything of substance to this forum?
“Gun owner, Not shooter"..... What does that mean?

SIGShooter
03-04-2010, 19:40
I was curious how many of you guys have an AR-15 as the primary home defense weapon? Also what kind of ammo do you use. I sure wouldn't shoot a FMJ in the house at someone, so I figure you guys must use a 45 gr psp or something that'll mushroom. When I bought my AR the salesman said that it might not be as reliable with non fmj rounds. I have a 9mm pistol as my home defense weapon, but was interested what you AR guys use.


Colt LE6920
Surefire M73 Rail System
Surefire XM961 Light
Privi Partisan 69 Gr. BTHP Match

I will be switching my ammunition over to MK262 MOD1.

The salesman doesn't know what he is talking about. My 6920 has fed every HP, SP, FMJ round that I have fed it to include a 35 Gr. Varmint round (That was for fun).

Personally I would rather use my M4 for HD before I went for my 1911. The M4 is the primary, my 12 GA. is the secondary and the 1911 is tertiary.

If, for some unknown reason, the bad people aren't stopped with the 69 Gr. I have Privi Partisan M855 as backup.

YMMV

HAIL CAESAR
03-04-2010, 19:52
Other than my wife, I don’t have people hanging out in my bedroom. If “company” did see it, they wouldn’t be surprised. If seeing guns offends someone, they are free to leave my property.
I’ve read several of your posts. Are you ever going to contribute anything of substance to this forum?
“Gun owner, Not shooter"..... What does that mean?

Like you, I don't usually invite casual guests that are visiting into my bedroom.:rofl:

The guests that make it past our sitting room and into our living room may see a 1911 or whatnot laying around. Heck, there are guns mounted on the walls although they are antique muzzle loaders. ( Expect for a old Win 94 mounted under a Boar's head that may be loaded hammer down on a empty chamber...or maybe not. :whistling:)

But these are very good friends and more likely they have a gun on their belt or purse than not. When these friends are over they sometimes bring their children or grandchildren with their .22's and we have a good old time. I do not have a bunch of "gun hating" friends. If they were, they would not be good friends.

Alaskapopo
03-04-2010, 22:44
Like you, I don't usually invite casual guests that are visiting into my bedroom.:rofl:

The guests that make it past our sitting room and into our living room may see a 1911 or whatnot laying around. Heck, there are guns mounted on the walls although they are antique muzzle loaders. ( Expect for a old Win 94 mounted under a Boar's head that may be loaded hammer down on a empty chamber...or maybe not. :whistling:)

But these are very good friends and more likely they have a gun on their belt or purse than not. When these friends are over they sometimes bring their children or grandchildren with their .22's and we have a good old time. I do not have a bunch or "gun hating" friends. If they were they would not be good friends.


The only way I would tolerate a gun hating friend is if she were extremely hot. Being hot can make up for a lot of short comings. :supergrin:
Pat