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polkhigh
12-28-2009, 15:10
LMT CQB MRP Defender Model 16
Colt 6940
Daniel Defense M4 Carbine

I am in the market for AR and have narrowed it down to these three. I actually had it down to the LMT and Colt but just found a deal on the DDM4 that I might not be able to give up ($1295). However, I am not too fond of the extended rail of the DDM4.

I've looked at the "chart" and I think anyone of these will be a great rifle, but wanted to get some opinions from the crowd, first hand experience?

Any advice for this AR newb?

Kegel
12-28-2009, 15:55
LMT CQB MRP Defender Model 16
Colt 6940
Daniel Defense M4 Carbine

I am in the market for AR and have narrowed it down to these three. I actually had it down to the LMT and Colt but just found a deal on the DDM4 that I might not be able to give up ($1295). However, I am not too fond of the extended rail of the DDM4.

I've looked at the "chart" and I think anyone of these will be a great rifle, but wanted to get some opinions from the crowd, first hand experience?

Any advice for this AR newb?


Get a Noveske and be done with it. You'll never look back.

markman
12-28-2009, 16:18
You should also take a look at what Bravo Co. offers.

faawrenchbndr
12-28-2009, 17:23
Either of the three would be a fine choice.
But, I'd agree with Kegel, a Noveske would be the shiznits!

NeverMore1701
12-28-2009, 17:55
Agree with taking a look at Noveske and BCM. I personally went with Bravo, just because I like building my own.

Chuck TX
12-28-2009, 17:56
Can't go wrong with any of those. My choice would be a BCM Middy (or Noveske Recce if it's in your price range).

joe138
12-28-2009, 18:28
I have both the Colt and LMT. By far that LMT is my favorite. The ability to change barrels easily is a plus. (I intend to SBR it someday.) To me the quality of the LMT beats the Colt, an example is the front sight on the Colt.

Kegel
12-28-2009, 18:47
It was between the LMT and Noveske Recce when I bought mine. The mid length gas system and barrel is what sold me.

DrMaxit
12-28-2009, 18:56
I just bought a Bravo Co. middy and it is very nice. Shoots really well and is very high quality stuff. I got the one with the DD Lite rail on it and put an Eotech 512 and a surefire on the side on my Bushmaster lower. Very happy with it and it shoots like a dream.

faawrenchbndr
12-28-2009, 18:58
I just bought a BCM middy and it is very nice. Shoots really well and is very high quality stuff. I got the one with the DD Lite rail on it and put an Eotech 512 and a surefire on the side on my Bushmaster lower. Very happy with it and it shoots like a dream.

I know a guy that's been trying to decide on an upper.
That has been one of his choices, that one is a great deal!

DrMaxit
12-28-2009, 19:00
I know a guy that's been trying to decide on an upper.
That has been one of his choices, that one is a great deal!

Yeah if you say so, 1100 bucks or something, but I got the BFH option and the bolt/carrier group. Probably better deals out there but it is one sweet piece.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-BFH-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh%20ddl9.htm

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BCM-URG-MID-16%20BFH%20DDL9-2.jpg

HogGlocker
12-28-2009, 19:09
From years of using and toting this weapon through good, bad, ugly and worse.....not trying to spill any of the kool-aid out of the Colt cup either.....I'd say go LMT or the Bravo components.

Noveske...sure...seriously good hardware.

LMT or Bravo will serve you just as well and you can have some extra boot for necessary items.

RMTactical
12-28-2009, 19:31
I would definitely include BCM into your consideration.

USMC03
12-28-2009, 19:42
LMT make an excellent AR. I own 4 of their standard AR's. That being said every person that I personally know that has purchased a LMT MRP, ended up selling it.

I have 3 Colt LE6920's. I have shot the Daniel Defense guns but have never owned one.

I wrote the following on another forum a few hours ago:

I own 3 Colt LE6920's. I own several BCM guns.

I have used both at work, in training classes, training at work, personal training, and in competition.

If you look at rob_s' comparison and spec charts: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5 you can see that they are exactly the same as far as features go (BCM has one more check mark - Lifetime Warranty).

With the Colt you are limited to basically a 11.5" barrel, 16" carbine barrel, or 20" rifle barrel.

BCM is over $100 less than Colt and BCM offers 11.5" barrels, 12.5" barrels, 14.5" carbine and mid legnt barrels, 16" carbine and mid-length barrels, 18" barrels, 20" barrels, and they also include complete uppers with rail systems from KAC, Larue, Daniel Defense, Midwest Industries, PRI, and others.


There is a reason BCM has become so popular. Quality that is on par with Colt, cheaper price, outstanding customer service, supporter of the Wounded Warrior project, supporter of the shooting sports (competition & training classes), and limitless choices.



I would take a hard look at www.bravocompanyusa.com ...... superior product, excellent customer service, outstanding price.

pleaforwar
12-29-2009, 00:34
LMT make an excellent AR. I own 4 of their standard AR's. That being said every person that I personally know that has purchased a LMT MRP, ended up selling it.

I have 3 Colt LE6920's. I have shot the Daniel Defense guns but have never owned one.

I wrote the following on another forum a few hours ago:

I own 3 Colt LE6920's. I own several BCM guns.

I have used both at work, in training classes, training at work, personal training, and in competition.

If you look at rob_s' comparison and spec charts: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5 you can see that they are exactly the same as far as features go (BCM has one more check mark - Lifetime Warranty).

With the Colt you are limited to basically a 11.5" barrel, 16" carbine barrel, or 20" rifle barrel.

BCM is over $100 less than Colt and BCM offers 11.5" barrels, 12.5" barrels, 14.5" carbine and mid legnt barrels, 16" carbine and mid-length barrels, 18" barrels, 20" barrels, and they also include complete uppers with rail systems from KAC, Larue, Daniel Defense, Midwest Industries, PRI, and others.


There is a reason BCM has become so popular. Quality that is on par with Colt, cheaper price, outstanding customer service, supporter of the Wounded Warrior project, supporter of the shooting sports (competition & training classes), and limitless choices.



I would take a hard look at www.bravocompanyusa.com (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com) ...... superior product, excellent customer service, outstanding price.

Jeff,
Out of curiosity, what is your relationship with Bravo Company? I have noticed that your photographs and website show watermarks bearing the BCM logo, yet you refer to Bravo Company as if you are only an enthusiast. :dunno:

Please don't take this post as being accusative, I'm just confused on the matter.

Semper Fi,
Dan

ETA: To the OP, all of the choices you listed are excellent rifles. If you decide that the monolithic setup is most important to you, then I would go with the Colt. If you don't care about that aspect, then I would go with the Daniel Defense. That being said, my opinion is completely subjective. You can't go wrong with the options you listed. :thumbsup:

Glock-it-to-me
12-29-2009, 00:54
I've got the Daniel Defense and it's perfect.

crusader4x
12-29-2009, 02:51
I went with the BCM middy just a couple of months ago. LOVE IT!

Alaskapopo
12-29-2009, 03:54
LMT CQB MRP Defender Model 16
Colt 6940
Daniel Defense M4 Carbine

I am in the market for AR and have narrowed it down to these three. I actually had it down to the LMT and Colt but just found a deal on the DDM4 that I might not be able to give up ($1295). However, I am not too fond of the extended rail of the DDM4.

I've looked at the "chart" and I think anyone of these will be a great rifle, but wanted to get some opinions from the crowd, first hand experience?

Any advice for this AR newb?
You will learn to love the extended rail as it allows you to put your light up front and your hand where it belongs on the hand guard. Plus the DD is a hell of a deal right now.
Pat

lawman800
12-29-2009, 04:59
I like the full extended rails like the Colt Monolithic and Stag 2HT. Seamless rail so you can mount whatever you want and not worry about the gaps for the delta ring getting in the way or whatnot.

Alaskapopo
12-29-2009, 05:03
Jeff,
Out of curiosity, what is your relationship with Bravo Company? I have noticed that your photographs and website show watermarks bearing the BCM logo, yet you refer to Bravo Company as if you are only an enthusiast. :dunno:

Please don't take this post as being accusative, I'm just confused on the matter.

Semper Fi,
Dan

ETA: To the OP, all of the choices you listed are excellent rifles. If you decide that the monolithic setup is most important to you, then I would go with the Colt. If you don't care about that aspect, then I would go with the Daniel Defense. That being said, my opinion is completely subjective. You can't go wrong with the options you listed. :thumbsup:

USMC03 is a regular and respected poster here and a moderator at other forums. He is only plugging a company he has had good luck with. Hell I will plug Bravo Company they are great!!
Pat

pleaforwar
12-29-2009, 08:57
USMC03 is a regular and respected poster here and a moderator at other forums. He is only plugging a company he has had good luck with. Hell I will plug Bravo Company they are great!!
Pat

Pat,
I am fully familiar with USMC03's moderation at other forums and his posts here. My question was directed towards him, and while I appreciate you throwing in your .02, I never questioned whether he is a regular or a respected poster. I am asking what his relationship with BCM is, having seen posts in several forums created by him bearing the BCM watermark (including our own photograph thread). I have also noticed that the 03 Design Group is directly linked from the Bravo Company website.

I personally thought he may have had a role like Stickman, who happens to be a photographer for Magpul. That being said, I did not know, and being that I was ignorant on the issue I felt the desire to just ask.

I hope you didn't take my original post as being confrontational, as I also hope that USMC03 doesn't take it that way when he reads it. That is why I specifically added that I was not trying to be accusative by my inquiry.

Nutt51
12-29-2009, 09:59
Polkhigh,

Colt, and LMT are excellent guns. I have never owned a Daniel D, so
I can't comment on it.
I am going to throw my hat in the ring for Bravo, BCM.
I ordered a BCM mid-length upper. I also ordered the BCM bolt group
and gunfighter charging handle. I was going to use it with my Colt lower,
but I liked it so much that I ordered a BCM lower, which should be in
this week. Now I will have a complete BCM rifle.
I am just a repeat customer and have no affiliation with them, but
they are A1 in my book. Just keep them in mind.
I really like the Middy length which Colt does not offer.

kabob983
12-29-2009, 10:40
I have both the Colt and LMT. By far that LMT is my favorite. The ability to change barrels easily is a plus. (I intend to SBR it someday.) To me the quality of the LMT beats the Colt, an example is the front sight on the Colt.

I debate that. LMT lacks an H buffer, park under the FSB (or in this case, the gas block), tapered FSB pins on their standard sights, etc. It might look prettier but build quality/quality of parts used the Colt wins. As for the front sight...I'd prefer it if both of them had a standard fixed FSB...

LMT make an excellent AR. I own 4 of their standard AR's. That being said every person that I personally know that has purchased a LMT MRP, ended up selling it.

I have 3 Colt LE6920's. I have shot the Daniel Defense guns but have never owned one.

I wrote the following on another forum a few hours ago:

I own 3 Colt LE6920's. I own several BCM guns.

I have used both at work, in training classes, training at work, personal training, and in competition.

If you look at rob_s' comparison and spec charts: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5 you can see that they are exactly the same as far as features go (BCM has one more check mark - Lifetime Warranty).

With the Colt you are limited to basically a 11.5" barrel, 16" carbine barrel, or 20" rifle barrel.

BCM is over $100 less than Colt and BCM offers 11.5" barrels, 12.5" barrels, 14.5" carbine and mid legnt barrels, 16" carbine and mid-length barrels, 18" barrels, 20" barrels, and they also include complete uppers with rail systems from KAC, Larue, Daniel Defense, Midwest Industries, PRI, and others.

BCM doesn't offer a 14.5" middy (yet) and the 18" barrels aren't out yet. Other than that I agree. I've got 3 6920's and a BCM 16" middy and I love 'em all. The BCM is certainly prettier but they all shoot very well. The BCM is what I shoot most often.

Pat,
I am fully familiar with USMC03's moderation at other forums and his posts here. My question was directed towards him, and while I appreciate you throwing in your .02, I never questioned whether he is a regular or a respected poster. I am asking what his relationship with BCM is, having seen posts in several forums created by him bearing the BCM watermark (including our own photograph thread). I have also noticed that the 03 Design Group is directly linked from the Bravo Company website.

I personally thought he may have had a role like Stickman, who happens to be a photographer for Magpul. That being said, I did not know, and being that I was ignorant on the issue I felt the desire to just ask.

I hope you didn't take my original post as being confrontational, as I also hope that USMC03 doesn't take it that way when he reads it. That is why I specifically added that I was not trying to be accusative by my inquiry.

From what I understand he designed the "BCM 03 MSF chest harness" that was recently released, so I assume they're business partners. That said, it looks like a fantastic rig and BCM makes absolutely top notch products so I've no quarrel whatsoever with what he's saying.

As for the OP's question if it's between the three you listed I'd go with the DD is price is what you're looking at or the 6940 if you want a monolithic upper. LMT isn't bad, I'm just not as much of a fan of cutting corners on parts to save a few bucks.

If you'd consider adding other MFR's I think the Noveske is a phenominal product but it is very expensive. As mentioned by many price for what you get BCM is tough to beat. The same mil-spec components/tolerances but at a lower price. They'll be releasing a 14.5" middy sometime next year and I'll have to pick one up, until then my 16" is getting the job done. Assembling your own AR is VERY easy (if you ever intend to clean your rifle you'll disassemble it to the same level anyways). Pick up a BCM upper, BCG, charging handle, and lower and you're ready to go.

pleaforwar
12-29-2009, 10:51
From what I understand he designed the "BCM 03 MSF chest harness" that was recently released, so I assume they're business partners. That said, it looks like a fantastic rig and BCM makes absolutely top notch products so I've no quarrel whatsoever with what he's saying.


Thank you for a little clarification. My posts were in no shape or form an attempt to denigrate Bravo Company's products. They do make some excellent stuff.

To the OP, please forgive me as I was not trying to hijack your thread. If anyone wants to discuss this any further please send me a PM rather than posting in this thread. :thumbsup:

jbremount
12-29-2009, 11:33
LMT CQB MRP Defender Model 16
Colt 6940
Daniel Defense M4 Carbine

I am in the market for AR and have narrowed it down to these three. I actually had it down to the LMT and Colt but just found a deal on the DDM4 that I might not be able to give up ($1295). However, I am not too fond of the extended rail of the DDM4.

I've looked at the "chart" and I think anyone of these will be a great rifle, but wanted to get some opinions from the crowd, first hand experience?

Any advice for this AR newb?


My free 2cents/opinion/advice.......think out the box....look at a good piston AR gun!

USMC03
12-29-2009, 13:12
Jeff,
Out of curiosity, what is your relationship with Bravo Company? I have noticed that your photographs and website show watermarks bearing the BCM logo, yet you refer to Bravo Company as if you are only an enthusiast. :dunno:

Please don't take this post as being accusative, I'm just confused on the matter.

Semper Fi,
Dan




Hi Dan,

Valid question and I don't take it as being accusatory in nature.

On most of my pics you will see a "USMC03" watermark. On pics that show the BCM 03 MSF chest harness you will see the "BCM" and "03 Design Group" logo.

I am a long time customer of Bravo Company. I am not an employee of Bravo Company. I am not a buisness partner of Bravo Company, I don't own any stock in the company, etc.

Bravo Company is selling a chest harness that I designed. Outside of that relationship, I am a consumer just like everyone else here.

I have told Paul at Bravo Company that he is welcome to use any of my photo that he wants. He has used some of my pics from tactical training classes, matches, and other photos that I have taken for his website and catalog. I have also taken pics of some of his products for his website (this work was done for free ... he would send me the product I would take pics and send the product back to him). Other people like Pat Rogers, Lancelot, and several others across the nation have also contributed pics to BCM's website / catalog.

The reason I have been a long time customer of Bravo Company and the reason I recommend Bravo Company is because you will generally have your order in a week or less. Over the years I have used several different vendors to get parts, numerous times I have place a $500 - $2,000 order with a Company X and waited 4 to 11 months for my order.

With Bravo Company if the item isn't in stock, you can order it. All of my Bravo Company orders have been received within approximately 7 days. Bravo Company has earned my buisness and my respect.


I've been a full time sworn LEO for the last 14 years. I've been with my current agency (a medium sized police department) for almost 13 years. I've been on the SWAT Team for 10 years, and I'm a full skills P.O.S.T. certified firearms instructor for our Police Academy, the Police Dept, our SWAT Team, and the SWAT Academy.

Outside of what I do at work, I have been hosting 2 to 5 tactical training classes a year, ever year, since 2001. Some of the recent instructors I've hosted are Pat Rogers, Magpul Dynamics, Larry Vickers, LMS Defense, etc. Outside of the classes I host, I also take other training classes.

From May to September of 2009 I took the following classes:

-Pat Rogers (EAG Tactical) 3 day Carbine Operator's Course
-Dave Neth 3 day SWAT Carbine and Pistol Course
-Magpul Dynamics - Dynamic Handgun 1 and Dynamic Handgun 2
-LMS Defense 2 day Carbine Course


I also shoot competition. I shoot montly run and gun rifle (AR15) competition out to 425 yards: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1029762, I shoot IDPA pistol, during the summer months (April - Sept) I shoot weekly all steel pistol matches, 3 gun, some precision rifle, etc, etc.


All of this (outside of work training classes, matches, writing reviews, etc) is done on my own dime and my own time.


All of the reviews, after action reports, and information that I have posted on various forums for the last decade was to help other shooters. Same reason I started the www.03designgroup.com website, so I could put all that information in one place. My intent has always been to help other shooters avoid mistakes I've already made and ensure that info I post is honest, untainted, and as technically correct as possible.

I have been the "victim" of bull**** reviews and bad information in the past. I have wasted money on product that didn't live up to the reviewer's claim. I try to ensure that all of the info I post is as solid as possible, wheather I have a relationship with a company or not.

I may have a small relationship with BCM, but I buy my products from Bravo Company just like everyone else here. I also buy from several other vendors.

I didn't make "The M4 Comparison Chart" listed in my first reply. If you look at Rob Sloyer's M4 Comparison chart, the list of features are listed in black and white. If you compare price vs. features (and then factor in different configurations, different barrel lengths and profiles, different rail systems already installed, etc) you can see why BCM how become so popular. Most of us seek out quality, value, and variety.


From a March run and gun rifle match (3 yards out to 425 yards):

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Monthly%20Rifle%20Matches/DPP_0036-1.jpg

From Pat Rogers May class:

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%202009/DPP_0026-2.jpg

I talked with all of the guys that were running BCM uppers / guns and no one had a single malfunction that was caused by the carbine.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%202009/DPP_0031-1.jpg

From top to bottom:
-Pat Rogers' BCM Stainless 11.5" (Pat used this as his demo gun for the entire class)
-UVvis' BCM 16" Mid-Length (UVvis lent this gun out to a friend for the class)
-UVis' BCM 11.5" (UVvis came in top shooter with his BCM 11.5")
-MustangLT's BCM 16" Mid-Length
-USMC03's BCM 16" Mid-Length
-Pat Rogers' BCM 16" Mid-Length (loaned out to a student for the class)
-english kanigit's BCM 16" Mid-Length


I put just over 1,300 rounds through the gun in the 3 day course. Not a single problem.

From the LMS Defense Sept class:

5 out of 8 shooters were running BCM uppers or complete guns (to include a 11.5" BFH and a 16" BFH). No malfunctions in any of the BCM guns (with the exception of a Wolf casing getting stuck inside the chamber on the 2nd to the last drill at the end of training day 2. I thought we were going to break the Magpul CTR and Gunfighter charging handle trying to get the stuck case out of the gun, but we were finally able to free the spent casing with no damage to either the stock or charging handle.

All 5 guns has Gunfighter charging handles in them. I'm really impressed with the new Gunfighter charging handle, I will be switching all of my charging handles over to the Gunfighter charging handle as funds allow:

BCM 16" mid length with BFH barrel:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/LMS%20Defense%20Carbine%202009/DPP_0002copy-1.jpg

USMC03
12-29-2009, 13:13
2nd half


DZhitshard's 11.5" BFH:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/LMS%20Defense%20Carbine%202009/DPP_0047copy.jpg

DZ's buddy running my 16" mid-length:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/LMS%20Defense%20Carbine%202009/DPP_0038copy.jpg


Duty / SWAT gun .... re-qualified with it a few weeks ago:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/03%20Design%20Group-BCM/IMG_1930002_copy.jpg

Same gun being used by another shooter in the LMS Defense carbine course in Sept:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/LMS%20Defense%20Carbine%202009/DPP_0020copy-1.jpg


I have (4) LMT M4's, (3) LE6920's, and (4) Noveske's in my safe. All are outstanding guns and all have been extremely reliable. I have used all 3 brands (LMT, Colt, Noveske) for duty guns, in competition, and in training / training classes over the years. If BCM made an inferior gun I wouldn't be using them in training / training classes, matches, and as my primary SWAT / Duty carbine.


I hope this clears up misconceptions as to my relationship with BCM and my motivation for posting the information that I post.




Take care and be safe




Happy Holidays

:usmc:

pleaforwar
12-29-2009, 14:21
Jeff,
Thanks for the clarification and informative post. :thumbsup: These classes that you host, are they open to non-LEO's? I am not too far from you, and have been looking for regional opportunities to train. I will be hopefully attending a class up at Gunsite come next summer, but I am always open to alternatives. :thumbsup:

RMTactical
12-29-2009, 14:28
Great pics.

internal
12-29-2009, 14:32
Cool post USMC03.

One Question, was UVis's 11.5 BCM upper a standard barrel or was it hammer forged barrel?

Thanks

thisaway
12-29-2009, 14:51
USMC 03, what is the small 'scope which you have on your duty rifle?

NeverMore1701
12-29-2009, 14:57
Aimpoint T1.

thisaway
12-29-2009, 14:59
Aimpoint T1.

OK, thank you!

USMC03
12-29-2009, 15:00
As to not distract from the thread. Here is some info Pat Rogers posted on another board about the BCM 16" mid-length that he has been testing and evaling. This is the same gun in the picture I posted above from Pat's May Colorado class:


Filthy 14 is the most used, and has (as of today) 28905 rds down range.

The barrel is original. It has never had a brush put through it.

-At 16400 rds bolt lug cracked.
Replaced BCG

-At 26450 rds had 3 failures to extract.
Replaced BCG and cleaned gun

We use only SLip2000 EWL for lube and Slip 2000 725 to clean.

**All of the rounds were fired during class (at the rate of approximately 1250 rds every 3 day)**

I do not recommend allowing the gun to go this long without PM.
However, we wanted to see how far we could take this particular gun (#14) without being burdened by the myth of meticulous cleaning.



As of 12-24-09 Pat's "Filthy 14" BCM Mid-Length has 28905 rounds on it and it's still going. And this is with the standard (non BFH) barrel.





Jeff,
Thanks for the clarification and informative post. :thumbsup: These classes that you host, are they open to non-LEO's? I am not too far from you, and have been looking for regional opportunities to train. I will be hopefully attending a class up at Gunsite come next summer, but I am always open to alternatives. :thumbsup:


No problem.

ALL of the classes that I host are non-LEO classes (unless it's a class that I'm hosting for work, and then it's a closed class and not even posted publically)

In 2010 I'm hosting the following classes:

April: Magpul Dynamics - Dynamic Carbine 1&2
May: Pat Rogers 3 day Carbine Operator's course
June: Magpul Dynamics - Dynamic Handgun 1&2
Sept: Magpul Dynamics - Dynamic Carbine 1&2

(all of the Magpul Dynamic are 3 day Dynamic Handgun / Carbine 1 & 2)

Class schedules can be found on the www.eagtactical.com and www.magpuldynamics.com websites. All classes are already full and there are waiting lists for all 4 classes. If you are interested in any of these classes I would get on the standby list NOW.

Hope this helps.



Great pics.


Thank you



Cool post USMC03.

One Question, was UVis's 11.5 BCM upper a standard barrel or was it hammer forged barrel?

Thanks


Thanks.

UVvis is running the standard barrel on his 11.5 BCM. It may even be one of the origional BCM uppers from the first batch back in 2006. I know his mid-lenght was from the 2006 batch.

I'm running a 11.5" standard BCM barrel on my SBR that's from the 2006 batch.

NeverMore1701
12-29-2009, 15:07
Jeff, every time you post about those BCM middies, it makes me happier that I got one! Now those 11.5" uppers are looking real tempting too....

HomeLandPatriot
12-29-2009, 16:11
Can anyone post at length about the Daniel Defense M4 with the Omega X 12 rail system? I too am looking at purchasing an AR, and this one has really caught my eye.

I'm sure this would help the OP as well since it is relevant to one of his choices.

One of the qualities I am looking for in a rifle is the ability to SBR it after purchasing it, so information regarding SBR for this particular rifle would be appreciated.

I'm looking to buy a top of the line rifle once and not worry about it again. Could possibly fill a professional role in the future, so wanna do it right the first time.

USMC03
12-29-2009, 17:12
I have only seen 3 Daniel Defense carbines in the courses I host.

In Pat Rogers class we had one student with one. He only had one malfunction the entire class:

*******************************************************
Quote from XGEP: ( http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3006044761/m/275108162/p/2 ) T3 (Training Day 3)- About the only thing I can really talk about that changed on T3 is I had my only malfunction of the course. While loading my rifle at the 7 yard line I had a type 3 malfunction I've never seen before. The bolt hit the first round in the mag and promptly jumped above the case but had moved the round forward enough to bend the bullet almost straight up. The round was still in the feed lips of the mag but the nose was trapped by the mostly forward bolt. This made it extremely difficult to either remove the mag or lock the bolt back. It took me a minute (as Mick, Assbags, MustangLT, and Pat can attest) but I was finally able to basically rip the mag out and cycle the bolt to let the round drop out. We found it later during police call and the round was almost at a 90 degree angle to the case. New experience for me, I'm just glad it didn't happen during actual shooting.

*********************************************************
Each student ran approximately 1,300 rounds through their carbines during Pat's class. I would not get wrapped around the axel about this one malfunction. Also note that it occurred when he was loading the carbine. I wasn't there, but my guess would possibly be a bad or damaged magazine.



We had 2 studends in the LMS class in Sept running DD carbines (all 3 carbines had the 12.0 Omega X rails on them). Each student ran approximately 1,000+ rounds in this course. As I recally neither student had any type of malfunction with their DD carbines in this class.



Daniel Defense rates high on the M4 comparison chart:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=1

and

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=0





That's the only exposure I've had to Daniel Defense carbines.

internal
12-30-2009, 09:47
USMC03,

What LPK's are you guys using?

Are most of the rifles you see in the course "complete" rifles meaning the LPK's came with a pre-assembled lowered.

ALso, have you ever seen any optic related failures on the course?

USMC03
12-30-2009, 13:06
USMC03,

What LPK's are you guys using?

Are most of the rifles you see in the course "complete" rifles meaning the LPK's came with a pre-assembled lowered.

ALso, have you ever seen any optic related failures on the course?


Not sure who you are refering to when you said "you guys".

I purchase complete firearms, or at least complete uppers and lowers from the same company.


Based on my personal experience: parts guns, home brews, gun show guns, DPMS, Olympic Arms, RRA, Bushmaster, and others have a noticeablly higher failure rate than Colt, LMT, BCM, Daniel Defense, Noveske, and Smith and Wesson.


I have seen optics go down in classes. Not trying to pick on anyone, but EO Tech seem to have a decent number of problems (both in classes and at work), and this is why I have always recommended Aimpoint.

Cheap optics always seem to go down. If you are going to buy optics, buy quality optics. For a defensive carbine, I would recommend a non-magnifed red dot for a majority of shooters (unless you work in an occupation that require dictates your choice of optics).



Hope this helps

ulose2
01-02-2010, 19:52
USMC03, Have you had or know anyone who has had experience with POF uppers or complete guns? Any feedback is appreciated.

USMC03
01-03-2010, 05:59
USMC03, Have you had or know anyone who has had experience with POF uppers or complete guns? Any feedback is appreciated.

I have only seen 3 in classes, all 3 had reliability issues. I haven't seen a POF in a class since late 2006.

Piston guns are heavier and a slightly sharper recoil impulse. There are several different designs on the market, and like any new design it will have "teething problem".

The direct gas system on the standard AR15 has been in service for approximately 50 years. It's a reliable system and works well *if* you buy a quality AR15.

As stated in an earlier post, Pat Rogers had 26,000 rounds through his BCM test and eval gun before it was cleaned.

polkhigh
01-03-2010, 19:54
Thanks all for your input, especially USMC03!! I didn't even consider BCM, but given the price difference and rave reviews in other forums, I've decided to go with the BCM Mid-length.

One last question for y'all...any advantages or disadvantages between the 9 inch handguard with fixed front sites and the 12" handguard with flip-up sites?

USMC03, I see you shooting both variations in your training photos, is there one you like better than the other? Are the 12" handguards front heavy?

Thanks again.

ArmoryDoc
01-03-2010, 23:04
you should also take a look at what bravo co. Offers.

ditto.

USMC03
01-04-2010, 06:46
Thanks all for your input, especially USMC03!! I didn't even consider BCM, but given the price difference and rave reviews in other forums, I've decided to go with the BCM Mid-length.

One last question for y'all...any advantages or disadvantages between the 9 inch handguard with fixed front sites and the 12" handguard with flip-up sites?

USMC03, I see you shooting both variations in your training photos, is there one you like better than the other? Are the 12" handguards front heavy?

Thanks again.


9.0 vs 12.0 rail system:

Personal preference, body size, how you grip the gun, etc, etc, etc. all come into play.

Which one is right for you? Don't know. All depends on the stuff I mentioned in the last sentence.

You may want to go back and look at some of the pics from both the LMS and Pat Rogers classes and matches (first post at the top of this page) and look at how I'm holding the fore end and from there figure out how you hold the fore end and from that try to decide if a 9.0 or 12.0 will work better for you.

Cost and weight come into play a little. 12.0 will take more rail pannels and a front back up iron sight .... both cost more and add a little more weight.

I kind of like the longer rail because I get my grip pretty far foward. But don't go off what works for me, go off of how you grip the fore end and what works best for you.

In reference to weight. I have been cataloging weights as I take pics to give people an "apples to apples" weight comparison. Please read the first couple paragraphs in this article, as rail pannels, front back up iron sights, etc. all have to be factored in when considering weight:

http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/ar15-upper-receiver-weight-comparisons/icon-ar15-upper-receiver-weight.jpg
03designgroup | AR15 Upper Receiver Weight Comparisons (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/ar15-upper-receiver-weight-comparisons)


Stocks also effect the weight and balance of the carbine. Selecting the correct stock can help as well:

http://03designgroup.com/photo/ar15-buttstock-considerations/icon-ar15-buttstock-considerations.jpg
03designgroup | AR15 Buttstock Considerations (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/ar15-buttstock-considerations)



You may find this useful:

http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers/icon-bcm-upper-lower.jpg
03designgroup | BCM Complete AR15 Upper and Lower Receivers (http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers)





Hope this helps