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Jon_R
12-28-2009, 18:18
Before things went crazy with the election I bought three AR Stripped Lowers from a manufacturer shipped to a local FFL. On the 4473 they where transfered to me as receivers vs. long gun or handgun. My state has no registration and I was not given a copy of the 4473 which is standard I have never been given a copy for a firearm purchase.

If I wanted to build an AR pistol from one I think that would be legal.

If I am questioned on what I have how do I prove I have not put a short barrel and removed the stock from a rifle? In essence having a non NFA registered SBR.

Who would the burden of proof be on? Would I have to prove it is a pistol / not a rifle or would the authorities have to prove it is not a pistol / is a rifle? How would anything be proved by anyone one way or the other?

Anyone know?

faawrenchbndr
12-28-2009, 18:20
Tagged,......very good question.

GIockGuy24
12-28-2009, 20:07
It's not controlled or restricted by what the dealer puts on his copy of the 4473. As you have learned you don't get a copy anyway. ATF recommends you by from the receiver maker with a letter stating it was sold new to you as a bare receiver. It's not a law that you so it this way. The 4473 is not a control of this in any way but the dealer is not suppose to put "new" if it was ever transferred on a 4473 before even if it was never used. Not that this should matter. The 4473 gives you nothing. If you bought it as a receiver and it wasn't built as a rifle it's legal to make a pistol. The differences can come if a receiver had a built in pistol grip and no buttstock of if a receiver has a buttstock. If you didn't by the receiver directly from receiver then the maker has no idea what happened to it after it left them and before you bought it from somebody else so your chances of getting a letter stating it was sold to you as a bare receiver that was never a rifle are slim but again this is not required by law. If you bought a bare receiver as "new" then you shouldn't have an issue making a pistol with it. You are suppose to be at least 21 to buy any receiver from a dealer.

Jon_R
12-28-2009, 20:20
In my case I bought it from Essential Arms (manufacturer) and shipped it to my local FFL for the transfer. I did not buy it from the FFL I paid Essential Arms directly on my CC and had the FFL fax their FFL to them. They where completely stripped lowers no stock no parts kit, etc.

I am just wondering if I get pulled over on the way to the range or shooting at the range and a LEO asks me for my SBR tax stamp for my (rifle to him) 10.5" barreled pistol without a stock where I go from there and who the burden on proof would be on. I assume he won't take my word for it that it is a pistol but he or anyone can't prove it isn't as long as there is no stock attached.

It's not controlled or restricted by what the dealer puts on his copy of the 4473. As you have learned you don't get a copy anyway. ATF recommends you by from the receiver maker with a letter stating it was sold new to you as a bare receiver. It's not a law that you so it this way. The 4473 is not a control of this in any way but the dealer is not suppose to put "new" if it was ever transferred on a 4473 before even if it was never used. Not that this should matter. The 4473 gives you nothing. If you bought it as a receiver and it wasn't built as a rifle it's legal to make a pistol. The differences can come if a receiver had a built in pistol grip and no buttstock of if a receiver has a buttstock. If you didn't by the receiver directly from receiver then the maker has no idea what happened to it after it left them and before you bought it from somebody else so your chances of getting a letter stating it was sold to you as a bare receiver that was never a rifle are slim but again this is not required by law. If you bought a bare receiver as "new" then you shouldn't have an issue making a pistol with it. You are suppose to be at least 21 to buy any receiver from a dealer.

GIockGuy24
12-28-2009, 20:27
You don't have to prove anything. The ATF recommends you get a letter from the maker stating they sold you a new bare receiver that was never a rifle but it is not required.

jjtroutbum
12-28-2009, 22:33
If I were to get pulled over and hassled. I would ask where the shoulder stock was on my AR pistol. IF he wants to claim my pistol is a rifle. Then wait for the "have a good day" after he asks someone else that knows weapons law.

lawman800
12-29-2009, 06:03
Good idea... An AR pistol would be a cool build. Just don't paint the tip orange.

jdeere_man
12-29-2009, 16:44
It would be my understanding if it was transferred as a stripped lower, never assembled into a rifle, it would have been transferred as "other", meaning neither was sepecified. Thus you can build it into whatever you want.

The issue you are going to have is the buffer tube. You wouldn't want to just use a regular 6 position buffer tube and remove the stock. IMO that has the potential to land you into trouble. You need to use a buffer tube that is not capable of having a stock put on it.

Other than that you are worrying too much.

lawman800
12-29-2009, 16:58
It would be my understanding if it was transferred as a stripped lower, never assembled into a rifle, it would have been transferred as "other", meaning neither was sepecified. Thus you can build it into whatever you want.

The issue you are going to have is the buffer tube. You wouldn't want to just use a regular 6 position buffer tube and remove the stock. IMO that has the potential to land you into trouble. You need to use a buffer tube that is not capable of having a stock put on it.

Other than that you are worrying too much.

I've seen the pistol specific tubes that have this big ole sling loop on the back to prevent any stock from being slid on. The sling loop was supposed to be for you to sling it on one shoulder kinda like how the USSS did their Uzis.

I think it is illegal in CA anyway since the magazine is not in the grip, which makes it EVIL! Only pistols which have the magazine in the grip and hold 10 rounds are acceptable at this point. Bobby Boucher's mother was right, AR anything is the work of the DEVIL!

Glocks&Ducs
12-29-2009, 17:48
If you build it with the proper parts, nobody can hassle you in the first place. If you get pulled over, don't offer to show your firearms. What the heck makes you think a cop that just happened to pull you over would be looking at your firearms for in the first place?

Jon_R
12-29-2009, 18:07
If you build it with the proper parts, nobody can hassle you in the first place. If you get pulled over, don't offer to show your firearms. What the heck makes you think a cop that just happened to pull you over would be looking at your firearms for in the first place?

It would be more if you where shooting at the range. The way the law is written I just don't think it can really be enforced unless you do something really obvious and dumb.

I could take my stripped receiver make it a rifle shoot it for a year then snap on a 10" upper remove the stock and replace it with a pistol buffer tube and shoot it for a year as a pistol. Technically this would be a violation but unless someone has video or pictures showing me with it as a rifle and you can see the serial numbers in the picture how would this ever be an enforceable law.

What really got me thinking about it was the thread about the guy open carrying a AK Pistol and being detained for 2.5 hours while the officers determined it was a a pistol and not a cut down rifle. In the case of a AR where I bought the stripped receiver what would they do for these 2.5 hours figuring it out or would I find myself in a cell on federal weapons charges. Granted I have no desire to open carry an AR pistol but what if the same thing happened at a public range? About all they can do is ask me is that a legal pistol or an illegal SBR. I would be pretty dumb to answer it is an illegal SBR. :)

I just thought it would an interesting discussion.

lawman800
12-29-2009, 21:58
Now you guys got me thinking of another way to waste my money... how would an AR pistol with a 20" SP-1 upper sound?:rofl:

ottomatic
12-30-2009, 18:08
Now you guys got me thinking of another way to waste my money... how would an AR pistol with a 20" SP-1 upper sound?:rofl:

It would sound illegal. Over 16" barrel will be considered a SBR.

lawman800
12-30-2009, 18:27
It would sound illegal. Over 16" barrel will be considered a SBR.

Man... Why does the law always have to get in the way of my fun???

Guess no foregrip on my pistol either then....

jjtroutbum
12-30-2009, 20:11
Man... Why does the law always have to get in the way of my fun???

Guess no foregrip on my pistol either then....

Nope no fore grip. Never heard any rule against a 20" tho..

12131
12-30-2009, 20:16
It would sound illegal. Over 16" barrel will be considered a SBR.

Huh???

DScottHewitt
12-30-2009, 20:21
Before things went crazy with the election I bought three AR Stripped Lowers from a manufacturer shipped to a local FFL. On the 4473 they where transfered to me as receivers vs. long gun or handgun. My state has no registration and I was not given a copy of the 4473 which is standard I have never been given a copy for a firearm purchase.

If I wanted to build an AR pistol from one I think that would be legal.

If I am questioned on what I have how do I prove I have not put a short barrel and removed the stock from a rifle? In essence having a non NFA registered SBR.

Who would the burden of proof be on? Would I have to prove it is a pistol / not a rifle or would the authorities have to prove it is not a pistol / is a rifle? How would anything be proved by anyone one way or the other?

Anyone know?

IANAL, but I would say that as long as it has never been made into either, you can make a handgun from it. The options on the 4473 have been changed. Bare lowers, among other things, are now checked as "OTHER". To transfer "OTHER", the recipient must be over 21. Best answer is to check and find out. Better to be told "NO" than to be told "Ben Dover".....

DScottHewitt
12-30-2009, 20:23
In my case I bought it from Essential Arms (manufacturer) and shipped it to my local FFL for the transfer. I did not buy it from the FFL I paid Essential Arms directly on my CC and had the FFL fax their FFL to them. They where completely stripped lowers no stock no parts kit, etc.

I am just wondering if I get pulled over on the way to the range or shooting at the range and a LEO asks me for my SBR tax stamp for my (rifle to him) 10.5" barreled pistol without a stock where I go from there and who the burden on proof would be on. I assume he won't take my word for it that it is a pistol but he or anyone can't prove it isn't as long as there is no stock attached.

Do they have parks in Florida?

DScottHewitt
12-30-2009, 20:25
If I were to get pulled over and hassled. I would ask where the shoulder stock was on my AR pistol. IF he wants to claim my pistol is a rifle. Then wait for the "have a good day" after he asks someone else that knows weapons law.

Wrong angle. IF you take the shoulder stock off an AR-15 and put a less than 16" barrel on it, it IS a SBR. Because it started as a rifle.

DScottHewitt
12-30-2009, 20:26
Good idea... An AR pistol would be a cool build. Just don't paint the tip orange.

OR leave the muzzle black and paint the rest of the firearm orange with a can of Krylon. Drippy, runny, streaky Krylon.....

DScottHewitt
12-30-2009, 20:30
Huh???

Welcome to BATFE logic. I think the TC Contender is the only firearm that can be in pistol configuration with a greater than 16" barrel. That is because Thompson Center {IIRC} took it to court and got a decision in their favor, for their firearm only.

There are like weight restrictions for a pistol, too. {IIRC}

NeverMore1701
12-30-2009, 20:46
I've never heard anything like a barrel length restriction on pistols. Someone is gonna have to come up with an official source before I believe it.

jjtroutbum
12-30-2009, 20:50
I've never heard anything like a barrel length restriction on pistols. Someone is gonna have to come up with an official source before I believe it.
+1 this

lawman800
12-30-2009, 21:22
So a rifle with a shorter than 16" barrel is NFA SBR, while a pistol longer than 16" is also a NFA SBR... how did the bureaucrats come up with that magical number of evil? Did they try different lengths and when they hit 16" on both the rifle and pistol, the gates of Hell opened up and Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and Barack Obama stepped through to bring about the end of the world?

HomeLandPatriot
12-30-2009, 22:13
I'm trying to figure out how a pistol with a bbl longer than 16" is either S (short) or a R (Rifle). Seems an long barreled pistol can't be a short barreled rifle :dunno:

NeverMore1701
12-30-2009, 23:27
It can't. Just more gunshop/internet BS.

lawman800
12-31-2009, 00:50
I'm trying to figure out how a pistol with a bbl longer than 16" is either S (short) or a R (Rifle). Seems an long barreled pistol can't be a short barreled rifle :dunno:

But if you put a 17" AR pistol and a 15" AR rifle together and fire them both really quickly to put a lot of lead downrange at one time, you might have yourself a Short Barreled Shotgun!:supergrin:

NeverMore1701
12-31-2009, 01:12
But if you put a 17" AR pistol and a 15" AR rifle together and fire them both really quickly to put a lot of lead downrange at one time, you might have yourself a Short Barreled Shotgun!:supergrin:

I think I'd take that over Any Other Weapon :rofl:

HomeLandPatriot
12-31-2009, 12:07
But if you put a 17" AR pistol and a 15" AR rifle together and fire them both really quickly to put a lot of lead downrange at one time, you might have yourself a Short Barreled Shotgun!:supergrin:


NSEB? (New School Evil Blunderbuss) Gotta have evil in there for the legislation to make sense of course. Slap some black on there and its voodoo practicing, viking loving, satan worshiping EVIL!

lawman800
12-31-2009, 16:35
You mean, Bobby Boucher Foosball EVIL!

GAFinch
12-31-2009, 18:23
What really got me thinking about it was the thread about the guy open carrying a AK Pistol and being detained for 2.5 hours while the officers determined it was a a pistol and not a cut down rifle. In the case of a AR where I bought the stripped receiver what would they do for these 2.5 hours figuring it out or would I find myself in a cell on federal weapons charges. Granted I have no desire to open carry an AR pistol but what if the same thing happened at a public range? About all they can do is ask me is that a legal pistol or an illegal SBR. I would be pretty dumb to answer it is an illegal SBR. :)

I just thought it would an interesting discussion.

The problem is, even if your gun is built completely legal, there is no way to avoid being possibly detained to check on it's legality. The only solution is to buy another receiver that has "pistol" engraved on it by the manufacturer. I know Spikes makes them, sure others do too.

lawman800
12-31-2009, 18:53
Does the mag have to be pinned in permanently for CA?

Jon_R
12-31-2009, 19:31
The problem is, even if your gun is built completely legal, there is no way to avoid being possibly detained to check on it's legality. The only solution is to buy another receiver that has "pistol" engraved on it by the manufacturer. I know Spikes makes them, sure others do too.

I agree. The law is strange. All they can do is get from the manufacturer that a stripped virgin lower was bought by me and shipped to me via an FFL. From there they would have nothing other then what I told them. Technically if I snapped a stock on this lower in my garage I have ruined it as a pistol forever and would be in violation if it ever had a barrel shorter then 16" on it. Unless I make such a statement that I have done it where could it go. It would basically boil down to a question to me (nobody else could answer the question) do you have a pistol or do have an illegal SBR. Throw another wrinkle on it and have me respond with I take the 5th amendment and decline to answer the question. :)

Now what would they have....

I just thought it funny the way the laws are written as it relates to the end user decision to make a pistol or rifle from a stripped receiver and the fact unless it is found with a stock and a short barrel in practicality it could bounce back and forth as much as you wanted.

If it gets stamped with Pistol on the receiver I don't see how it really changes anything. You could take that receiver add a stock and you have legally ruined it as a pistol even if you take it off.

ottomatic
01-01-2010, 10:14
It would sound illegal. Over 16" barrel will be considered a SBR.


I just realized this morning, that while my original statement is mostly true (a pistol with a barrel exceeding 16" will generally be an NFA weapon), in this case, due to the overall length of the weapon it will be considered a:





RIFLE!

lawman800
01-01-2010, 11:57
So... a gun registered as a pistol, with no buttstock, is a rifle because it's too long to be concealable?

jjtroutbum
01-01-2010, 17:29
A AR with no buttstock that is a built on a virgin receiver is a pistol. Until someone shows me (a law) different. Better check those facts people. I'm not gonna limit my self on internet hearsay.

DScottHewitt
01-01-2010, 17:40
A AR with no buttstock that is a built on a virgin receiver is a pistol. Until someone shows me (a law) different. Better check those facts people. I'm not gonna limit my self on internet hearsay.

As long as it follows the law, it's a pistol.



This is from the AWB, so the weight thing should not apply now:



A Semi-Auto pistol with an ability to accept a detachable magazine can not have two (2) or more of the following features:

1. an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.
2. a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer.
3. a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned.
4. a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded. a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.

I did not realize the weight limit was from the AWB. Sorry.

lawman800
01-01-2010, 20:43
A Semi-Auto pistol with an ability to accept a detachable magazine can not have two (2) or more of the following features:

1. an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.
2. a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer.
3. a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned.
4. a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded. a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.

I did not realize the weight limit was from the AWB. Sorry.

Does #3 include the short handguard over the barrel? It seems to fit the definition.

jjtroutbum
01-01-2010, 21:22
As long as it follows the law, it's a pistol.



This is from the AWB, so the weight thing should not apply now:



A Semi-Auto pistol with an ability to accept a detachable magazine can not have two (2) or more of the following features:

1. an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.
2. a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer.
3. a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned.
4. a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded. a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.

I did not realize the weight limit was from the AWB. Sorry.

Actually for those not affected by state law since the Fed AWB is over the rules quoted do not apply at all ...correct?

lawman800
01-01-2010, 21:31
CA sucks.

jjtroutbum
01-01-2010, 21:44
CA sucks.
I dont know? But it sure is pretty on TV. When not shaking, burying or burning all the while taxing its residents/surfs to death. :whistling:

DScottHewitt
01-02-2010, 17:28
Actually for those not affected by state law since the Fed AWB is over the rules quoted do not apply at all ...correct?

Correct. As I said, I was wrong when I said I thought there was a weight limit on a pistol. That was under the AWB.

DScottHewitt
01-02-2010, 17:31
Does #3 include the short handguard over the barrel? It seems to fit the definition.

Yeah. During the AWB, AR-15 pistols had to have nekkid barrels.


Unless it is a problem at the state or local level, no longer should apply.

This one was a post-ban:


http://www.quarterbore.com/images/nfa-pistol.jpg

lawman800
01-03-2010, 02:32
Just when you think it couldn't get uglier....