10mm winchester 175gr silvertips [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Glock 29
12-29-2009, 07:16
was wondering if this is a good sd brand of ammo?
i have a glock29 and in the market for some sd ammo and came across this stuff.
please give me your input on this stuff and any other brand that might be as good or better thanks

glocksterr
12-29-2009, 07:21
if you want the real Ten i would try corbon, buffalo bore, ect,..

Kegs
12-29-2009, 07:38
If you want the real 10 buy a real barrel (aftermarket) and handload. Check the 10mm reloading forum for results. :cool:

cowboywannabe
12-29-2009, 07:45
Win STHP are a good mid power 10mm load. Cor-Bon makes good mid power loadings also but are expensive.

Buffalo Bore is full power but expensive. Georgia Arms is mid power and reasonably priced.

Double Tap makes reasonably price full power 10mm loads.

Tombstone
12-29-2009, 08:14
Winchester Sliver Tips work just fine in mine G20 and are quite accurate.

noway
12-29-2009, 08:34
And easy to shoot. I don't they would make that big of difference in a SD shooting to be overly concern with. Their's also too distinct packages for this round the older boxes are suppose to be slightly faster.

glock20c10mm
12-29-2009, 20:16
was wondering if this is a good sd brand of ammo?
i have a glock29 and in the market for some sd ammo and came across this stuff.
please give me your input on this stuff and any other brand that might be as good or better thanks
I don't like the 10mm 175gr Silvertip load. Tested them along side some other bullet designs (XTPs and Gold Dots) and the Silvertips were the only ones that didn't expand reliably in various forms of media. Only backyard testing, but the XTPs and GDs didn't take issue, where the Silvertips did. Simply can't trust them, let alone when my life is on the line.

cowboywannabe
12-29-2009, 20:25
what medium did you use?

i used capped plastic jugs filled with water....the thickness of the plastic was a bit more than the stadard one gallon milk jug type but plastic none the less......from 15~ feet i got good expansion, good penetration, and good retained weight from the STHP.

dont know what else to say except the ones i tried worked well in my own back yard testing... ><img src="http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/101_0005.jpg" border="0" alt="10mm test slugs"></a>http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/101_0004.jpg


somewhere in the 10mm section i posted what the recovered weights and diameters were....

glock20c10mm
12-29-2009, 20:33
what medium did you use?
Water filled jugs, wet newspaper, mud, wet sand, wood in front of water jugs...

And except in the water filled jugs and mud, the Silvertips wouldn't always expand, where the XTPs and GDs did in all test mediums, AND, I fired multiple rounds of each into everything.

You know what's really scary.....the Double Tap 155gr Gold Dots @ 1400fps that I like so much, expand to .88" in bone dry super hard pack dirt in less than two inches penetration!:shocked: Those things are wicked!

Ak.Hiker
12-29-2009, 22:41
I alway keep several boxes of 175 grain Winchester Silvertip in my ammo box. Winchester has had this load on the market for many years. I do not think Winchester would be able to market the 175 grain Silvertip for as long as they have if it did not get the job done. They have a similar load in the 41 Magnum that has a good reputation. Both of these Silvertip loads have been used on Deer and other medium sized game with good results. I would carry it for SD or protection from medium sized animals or viscious dogs with no worry.

stengun
12-30-2009, 19:48
Howdy glock20c10mm,

I don't like the 10mm 175gr Silvertip load. Tested them along side some other bullet designs (XTPs and Gold Dots) and the Silvertips were the only ones that didn't expand reliably in various forms of media. Only backyard testing, but the XTPs and GDs didn't take issue, where the Silvertips did. Simply can't trust them, let alone when my life is on the line.

:shocked:

I carry Win ST in my G20. I have been using Win ST in 10mm since the mid/late 80's. I have used them in combat, and for hunting and they are the best SD/HD/hunting round on the market.

Here's a pic..............

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/stengun/PA140197.jpg

This is a Win 175gr ST. It expanded to 1.02" at the widest point and penetrated over 17".

9mm round next to it only expanded to about .62" and penetrated about 9" in the same test media.

Some of the DT and Buffalo loads or way overpressure and do not live up to the hype or velocity claims.

For me, I will stick will a proven load, the Win 175gr ST.

Paul

glock20c10mm
12-30-2009, 20:44
Some of the DT and Buffalo loads or way overpressure and do not live up to the hype or velocity claims.
They are not overpressure. Who fed you that nonsense?

For me, I will stick will a proven load, the Win 175gr ST.

Paul
Hey, if you think they work great, more power to ya. I tested other bullet designs along side them, and the Silvertips were the lowest performers, period. I have no interest in arguing it, simply posting my own observations.

Good Shooting,
Craig

Fisher 21
12-30-2009, 21:18
The only squib I've ever had was a winch. silver tip. Packed the rest away after that.

Corbon or DT for me.

AWESOMO 4000
12-30-2009, 21:22
If I remember correctly, the FBI started looking at different calibers/cartridges (i.e., the .40 S&W) after a few shootings with the 10mm were less than impressive. Over-penetration was the common thread, and the load they settled on matched the 185gr .45 load...which lead to the development of the .40.

DocKWL
12-30-2009, 21:26
If I remember correctly, the FBI started looking at different calibers/cartridges (i.e., the .40 S&W) after a few shootings with the 10mm were less than impressive. Over-penetration was the common thread, and the load they settled on matched the 185gr .45 load...which lead to the development of the .40.

There is absolutely no truth to anything written in this paragraph.

stengun
12-30-2009, 22:49
Howdy glock20c10mm,

They are not overpressure. Who fed you that nonsense?


Hey, if you think they work great, more power to ya. I tested other bullet designs along side them, and the Silvertips were the lowest performers, period. I have no interest in arguing it, simply posting my own observations.

Good Shooting,
Craig

Overpressure? Look at the primers. No doubt they are overpressure.

I've tested other bullets too. In my backyard and on the battlefield. I'll stick with the SilverTips.

Paul

stengun
12-30-2009, 22:57
Howdy AWESOMO,

If I remember correctly, the FBI started looking at different calibers/cartridges (i.e., the .40 S&W) after a few shootings with the 10mm were less than impressive. Over-penetration was the common thread, and the load they settled on matched the 185gr .45 load...which lead to the development of the .40.

There is absolutely no truth to anything written in this paragraph.

You do not remember correctly.

The only problem the FBI had with the S&W 1006/1076 and 10mm round was with their agents.

+95% of the FBI agents were not/are not gun people.

Plus most of the FBI agents are small to medium framed men and add in the women and the S&W pistol was too big and the full power 10mm round, the Win ST had too much recoil for them to handle the pistol.

So the FBI switched to the 10mm "lite" load.

The agents continued to complain about the size and weight of the S&W pistol.

This all lead to the .40S&W round and pistols being made.

Paul

481
12-31-2009, 21:31
If I remember correctly, the FBI started looking at different calibers/cartridges (i.e., the .40 S&W) after a few shootings with the 10mm were less than impressive. Over-penetration was the common thread, and the load they settled on matched the 185gr .45 load...which lead to the development of the .40.

Ah, the emergence of another "internet myth"...

Remember folks, you saw it here first!

MTS532
12-31-2009, 23:16
The only problem the FBI had with the S&W 1006/1076 and 10mm round was with their agents.

+95% of the FBI agents were not/are not gun people.

Plus most of the FBI agents are small to medium framed men and add in the women and the S&W pistol was too big and the full power 10mm round, the Win ST had too much recoil for them to handle the pistol.

So the FBI switched to the 10mm "lite" load.

The agents continued to complain about the size and weight of the S&W pistol.

This all lead to the .40S&W round and pistols being made.


http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

fredj338
01-01-2010, 10:41
if you want the real Ten i would try corbon, buffalo bore, ect,..

The WinSTHP is a real 10. The 175grSTHP does 1250fps+ from my Delta or 1006. Unless you buy boutique ammo from DT or BB, it's a good load, expands well & drives deep enough.
+95% of the FBI agents (ALL LEO) were not/are not gun people.
Plus most of the FBI agents are small to medium framed men and add in the women and the S&W pistol was too big and the full power 10mm round, the Win ST had too much recoil for them to handle the pistol.
THis is the correct answer. The S&W is a huge pistol for anyone w/ less than average handsize not to mention the weight for CC, which is what all FBI do. If the G29 had been around then, maybe they would still be carrying the 10mm.

Bannack
01-01-2010, 10:54
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

Good post MTS532

AWESOMO 4000
01-01-2010, 11:46
You do not remember correctly.

The only problem the FBI had with the S&W 1006/1076 and 10mm round was with their agents.

+95% of the FBI agents were not/are not gun people.

Plus most of the FBI agents are small to medium framed men and add in the women and the S&W pistol was too big and the full power 10mm round, the Win ST had too much recoil for them to handle the pistol.

So the FBI switched to the 10mm "lite" load.

The agents continued to complain about the size and weight of the S&W pistol.

This all lead to the .40S&W round and pistols being made.

Paul
No, it was a magazine article written by Massad Ayoob (99% sure it was him) about the .40 S&W (I know, I know...some love him, some hate him, some don't care one way or another...), back around the mid 90's....I still have it, I'll have to dig it out. I think it was in Guns & Ammo. He mentioned that the 175gr Silvertip didn't perform any better than the 185gr .45, and had issues with over-penetration with the 175gr full-power loads, as well as the weight/bulk complaint of some agents.

Checking one of those one-shot-stop sites...

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=1&Weight=All


It seems to be just as effective as the other loads for it, without over-penetration concerns.

SDGlock23
01-01-2010, 12:42
I would say go for the 175gr Silvertips. I've heard some lots average on the slow side (~1150fps), but that's still not bad. I handload my Silvertips using Longshot, and get around 1365 fps avg. out of the G20.

stengun
01-01-2010, 14:08
Howdy,

The Win ST is rated at 1290ft/sec out of a 5.5" barrel and out of my stock barrel G20 the run about 1,260ft/sec over a chrony.

I have used them to kill coyotes and have seen what they do to people in combat (No, I'm not claiming to have shot anybody before. Not saying I haven't either.) and like I posted before, I'll stick with them.

One thing to remember is that the Win 175gr ST bullet/load was developed for the 10mm and not for the .40S&W. I have had poor results using .40S&W bullets that were driven at 10mm speeds. The basically blow apart w/out and penetration.

Paul

fredj338
01-01-2010, 23:42
Howdy,

The Win ST is rated at 1290ft/sec out of a 5.5" barrel and out of my stock barrel G20 the run about 1,260ft/sec over a chrony.

I have used them to kill coyotes and have seen what they do to people in combat (No, I'm not claiming to have shot anybody before. Not saying I haven't either.) and like I posted before, I'll stick with them.

One thing to remember is that the Win 175gr ST bullet/load was developed for the 10mm and not for the .40S&W. I have had poor results using .40S&W bullets that were driven at 10mm speeds. The basically blow apart w/out and penetration.

Paul
Handloaded 175grWSTHP will also fail to expand @ 40S&W vel. From both my 5" 10mm, the factory load does pretty close to 1250fps & expand well in wetpack & water jugs. I prefer a handloaded 165gr RGS @ 1300fps, but not for SD?HD unless I happen to be using a handload for woods carry.:dunno:

glocksterr
01-02-2010, 06:28
The WinSTHP is a real 10. The 175grSTHP does 1250fps+ from my Delta or 1006.


my bad, i didnt know any major mfg. was loading standard vel. 10mm.


;)

cowboywannabe
01-02-2010, 07:16
my bad, i didnt know any major mfg. was loading standard vel. 10mm.

i had to fix that for you bro.

im tired of watered down ammo getting the "standard" lable and the true standard getting the "high" velocity evil cop killer terrorist lable....

much like 10 round magazines that were not standard became "standard" by the leftists and the standard magazines became "high capasity" the same way.

remat
01-07-2010, 20:44
Howdy glock20c10mm,



Overpressure? Look at the primers. No doubt they are overpressure.

I've tested other bullets too. In my backyard and on the battlefield. I'll stick with the SilverTips.

Paul

Pics? I have never experienced primer flow from DoubleTap 10mm.

SIGShooter
01-07-2010, 20:56
OP:

I have a friend of mine who is a die hard 10MM fan, Colt Delta Elite.

He swears by the Winchester Silvertips for carry rounds.

As one poster stated, the earlier designed ST were faster. I will get some chrono results for you tomorrow if you would like.

Personally, I like all of the Silvertips that Winchester has for handguns. I really like the 185 Gr. .45 ACP Silvertips.

I would use them with 110% confidence.

Glolt20-91
01-07-2010, 22:01
Howdy glock20c10mm,



:shocked:

I carry Win ST in my G20. I have been using Win ST in 10mm since the mid/late 80's. I have used them in combat, and for hunting and they are the best SD/HD/hunting round on the market.

Here's a pic..............

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/stengun/PA140197.jpg

This is a Win 175gr ST. It expanded to 1.02" at the widest point and penetrated over 17".

9mm round next to it only expanded to about .62" and penetrated about 9" in the same test media.

Some of the DT and Buffalo loads or way overpressure and do not live up to the hype or velocity claims.

For me, I will stick will a proven load, the Win 175gr ST.

Paul

I handload so I can't speak about your ammo observations.

Back in '06 I posted some 175gr Silvertip velocity data using 800X powder

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179348&page=3

I also did some backyard testing with auto sheet metal, including car doors and at 1400fps the 175gr Silvertip behaved like an explosive varmint bullet that penetrates. The Silvertip bullet design for .357mag, 10mm and .44mag is probably the quintessential self defense bullet at elevated velocities.

A quote from a handloader .357mag/145gr Silvertip;

145gr Silvertip
Was hesitant to use on deer, was going to go with Hornady XTP (another good one). Started using these this year in my S&W 686 w/ Leupold Gilmore Red Dot. Very accurate and made a great looking round. Shot an 8 point Whitetail at 80 yards. Deep penetration through front of chest, broke a rib, and entered body cavity. Great performance and a one shot kill. Not so hesitant now. Buy these!!


Hogs are tough creatures, so how does the 175gr Silvertip rate? Another quote;

Easy to load, excellent results on wild hog. My favorite 10mm round

A final quote regarding the Silvertip design from another experienced shooter, 210gr/.44mag;

I have 5 years of experience with this bullet. It is superb in so many ways. Heavy enough for anything except special applications like large bear. Base is concave so weight is concentrated toward bullets walls. It opened violently in both tests and in actual shootings. For defense push at 1100 to 1275 fps for experts who carry. Push to 1500 for hunting. Moves almost 1900fps out of 22 inch carbine. Very accurate but seems impervious to fragmentation. Best bullet for 44 I have every seen.

The 175gr Silvertip may not perform well in sand, but it appears the Silvertip design has an excellent field performance reputation. :thumbsup:

Bob :cowboy:

glock20c10mm
01-09-2010, 13:51
Pics? I have never experienced primer flow from DoubleTap 10mm.
I haven't either. I call BS. Nothing that can be nailed down without a micrometer anyway. Just got done going through dozens of my once fired 10mm brass from DT with the spent primers still in the cases. Nothing abnormal whatsoever. Some smilies, yes, on the outside of the case heads, but, overpressure signs based on primers, no.

Also, 10mm brass was originally specified to handle 44,000psi. Mike at DT doesn't load beyond 37,500psi. I believe unfully supported chambers in some guns was the reasoning behind dropping the safe pressure loading limit.

Either way, I believe stengun is simply anti DT and is making his best attemp to be subtle about it, or, thinks he saw something he didn't.

Not to mention how many have fired DT 10mm ammo through various handguns, some many hundreds and/or thousands of rounds, and I have yet to hear of damage to any gun. I think some simply think better to be safe than sorry. I say they are paranoid. The G20C I used to have, and the G29 I have now have digested 1000s of rounds of DT ammo w/o a sign of a hiccup and show no premature abormalities in any way.

cowboywannabe
01-09-2010, 17:08
folks lets face it....some people just dont like the 10mm....because they cant handle it or what ever they just dont like it.

and with the Win STHP youre getting better ballastics than any .40s&w in the same weight so youre on the plus side there and the DT ammo is even better....

.45Super-Man
01-11-2010, 03:59
I wouldnt hesitate to use the 10mm silvertip for defense and I can't think of a round that will open up more quickly and deliver its energy to the target faster than the silvertip. I've fired thenm into wet sand from 25 ft or so and could feel the sand stinging me from the back spray! These rounds blew impressive size holes in the mixture of sand and clay at the riverbank I frequent. Most slugs I retrieved were about the diameter of a quarter and the only negative I could think of would be jacket seperation. I seriously doubt it would matter though! You dont get this with 9mm, 40 or .45acp. When these rounds hit any type of media there's a visible difference that doesnt require rocket science to figure out.

stengun
01-11-2010, 10:12
Howdy glock20c10mm,



Either way, I believe stengun is simply anti DT and is making his best attemp to be subtle about it, or, thinks he saw something he didn't.





Gee, I did not think I was being subtle about being anti-DT, I thought I was being upfront about it.

I seriously doubt that anyone on GT has fired more 10mm rounds than I have fired and after comparing some of the old Norma 190gr JHP and 200gr FMJ fired brass that was factory loaded to 44,000psi and some of DT's fired brass, both fired from the same gun, and it is easy to see that the DT ammo is atlest 44,000psi. Since SAAMI spec is something like 37,000psi, it's overpressure. Pretty simple.

I have never gotten a flattened primer with Win 175gr ST factory ammo or a bulged case. I do get them from DT ammo. Same gun, same barrel, and Win and DT ammo loaded into the same mag and fired about 5 sec. apart.

I have never had a problem with the Win ST ammo and since I have a fair supply of it,, I think I will stick with it.:supergrin: It runs about 1,260ft/sec out of my G20. I have killed coyotes with this gun and load and like I said, I'll stick with it.:wavey:

Paul


Paul

DocKWL
01-11-2010, 16:40
I'm anti-DT and I carry a 10mm often; just never loaded with DT.

Dave T
01-11-2010, 21:02
I'm curious where you folks are buying your WW 10mm ammo. I chronographed Silvertips back in the late 1990s through a G20 with a BarSto barrel and got 1167 fps. Recently I tried some new boxes of the same ammo through a stock G20 and got 1148 fps. I've read several comments from other people getting less than 1200 fps from Silvertips too.

Davev

JK-linux
01-11-2010, 21:20
I think the Silvertips are pretty accurate, at least from my 1006. I personally like the 165gr DT bonded loads for my G29. They feel much quicker than the Silvertips feel coming out of the shorter barrel. I do seem to shoot more accurately with DT 165's in the G29, which is mostly why I carry DT it. Beyond that, I'm pretty sure I'll have the undivided attention of anything living that is struck by either load, from either pistol.

MTS532
01-11-2010, 23:42
I'm anti-DT and I carry a 10mm often; just never loaded with DT.

Just curious, what 10mm do you carry and what is your preferred load?

sigcalcatrant
01-12-2010, 00:54
Howdy AWESOMO,





You do not remember correctly.

The only problem the FBI had with the S&W 1006/1076 and 10mm round was with their agents.

+95% of the FBI agents were not/are not gun people.

Plus most of the FBI agents are small to medium framed men and add in the women and the S&W pistol was too big and the full power 10mm round, the Win ST had too much recoil for them to handle the pistol.

So the FBI switched to the 10mm "lite" load.

The agents continued to complain about the size and weight of the S&W pistol.

This all lead to the .40S&W round and pistols being made.

PaulThe FBI NEVER tried full power 10mm loads. The problem was ALWAYS the size of the guns. Power was NEVER a factor, since they never even tried the full power loads, EVER. They never switched to the 10mm light load from the full power since they never used it.

fsqridah
01-12-2010, 22:12
I think the Silvertips are pretty accurate, at least from my 1006. I personally like the 165gr DT bonded loads for my G29. They feel much quicker than the Silvertips feel coming out of the shorter barrel. I do seem to shoot more accurately with DT 165's in the G29, which is mostly why I carry DT it. Beyond that, I'm pretty sure I'll have the undivided attention of anything living that is struck by either load, from either pistol.

For some reason, the 175gr Silvertips seemed to recoil harder in my G29 than any 180gr or 200gr FMJ and harder than 155gr Gold Dots and Montana Golds from DT, but not as sharply. It could've just been that my hand was wearing out though. I'd say they probably use a slower burning powder and that's why they feel slower.

But yeah, I think the differences are pretty minute compared to the damage either load will put on a human being, or a small to medium sized 4-legged animal. There's no substitute for magnum energy. And seriously, who cares if they fragment? We all want 12" minimum, but if it's a frontal shot on an average sized person, a mere 5-6" will get you to the vitals, and 155 grains of shrapnel sounds good to me.

glock20c10mm
01-13-2010, 00:13
Howdy glock20c10mm,





Gee, I did not think I was being subtle about being anti-DT, I thought I was being upfront about it.

I seriously doubt that anyone on GT has fired more 10mm rounds than I have fired and after comparing some of the old Norma 190gr JHP and 200gr FMJ fired brass that was factory loaded to 44,000psi and some of DT's fired brass, both fired from the same gun, and it is easy to see that the DT ammo is atlest 44,000psi. Since SAAMI spec is something like 37,000psi, it's overpressure. Pretty simple.

I have never gotten a flattened primer with Win 175gr ST factory ammo or a bulged case. I do get them from DT ammo. Same gun, same barrel, and Win and DT ammo loaded into the same mag and fired about 5 sec. apart.

I have never had a problem with the Win ST ammo and since I have a fair supply of it,, I think I will stick with it.:supergrin: It runs about 1,260ft/sec out of my G20. I have killed coyotes with this gun and load and like I said, I'll stick with it.:wavey:

Paul


Paul
Hi Paul,

What? Do you think the rest of us are all stupid? Now you admit to being completely anti DT, yet claim to have possibly fired more DT ammo than anyone else on GT? remat asked if you had pics and you don't even comment one way or the other back.

You claim Norma loaded the original 10mm loads to 44,000psi. Where did you get that info from? I say you're making it up and have no clue. Besides you claiming DT is loading their ammo to at least 44,000psi. You have no idea what you're talking about and are grasping at straws. Nor do I believe you ever knew the 44,000psi number to exist til I brought it up.

Did you seriously expect anyone to buy into your best attemp of a bluff?


Get Real,
Craig

remat
01-13-2010, 17:32
it is easy to see that the DT ammo is atlest 44,000psi
What???? Pictures, please so we can all see.

To the op:
The Silvertip is a good round. I prefer the Hornady XTP 180gr due to less flash and I shoot more accurately with it. However, I also like the DoubleTap 180gr. -- but it is a llittle stout out of shorter barrel pistols.

But I am just guessing...


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2478/4023531741_a3f214d95b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2761/4024288936_00faced522.jpg

stengun
01-13-2010, 20:08
Howdy glock20c10mm,

Hi Paul,

What? Do you think the rest of us are all stupid? Now you admit to being completely anti DT, yet claim to have possibly fired more DT ammo than anyone else on GT? remat asked if you had pics and you don't even comment one way or the other back.

You claim Norma loaded the original 10mm loads to 44,000psi. Where did you get that info from? I say you're making it up and have no clue. Besides you claiming DT is loading their ammo to at least 44,000psi. You have no idea what you're talking about and are grasping at straws. Nor do I believe you ever knew the 44,000psi number to exist til I brought it up.

Did you seriously expect anyone to buy into your best attemp of a bluff?


Get Real,
Craig

No, I do not think everybody is stupid, just some people.:upeyes:

Reread my post. I did not say that I've fired more DT ammo than anyone on GT, I said that I've fired more 10mm ammo than anybody on GT. I've actually only fired about 20 rds of DT ammo out of my G20.

Back in 1986-1987 I group did a field test for Uncle Sam with the S&W semi-auto pistol (the first batch were 645's that were "modified" to fire the 10mm round), the second batch that we got in 1988 were actually marked 1006.

I guess that between 1986 and 1991 that I fired over 100,000rds of 10mm ammo out of about 20 different pistol all at Uncle Sam's expense. This does not including the ones that I fired on my dime.

Gee Graig, you must be a newbie 10mm shooter. I have some old 10mm load data from back in the early-mid 80's, back when the only 10mm pistol on the market was the Bren Ten and it has the specs at 44,000psi. All the original Norma ammo was loaded to the 44,000psi spec. After D&D had several frames crack on the Bren Ten they had Norma to "lighten" to load a little and this is were the current 37,500psi SAAMI spec evolved from.

Heck, I even remember seeing a Bren Ten back in 1984-1985 at a gunshot south of Dallas and the ammo they had for sell with the pistol had 10mm Magnum stamped on the head of the brass. I do not remember what brand it was, it's just been too long ago. The owner of the gunshop had a Bren Ten and I fired several rounds though it. He was using it as a demo gun trying to get people to order then. I ordered one and almost 26 years later I'm still waiting on my Bren Ten!:steamed:

Hey, if you like DT ammo, go for it. As for me, I'll pass.:wavey:

Paul

stengun
01-13-2010, 20:11
Howdy sigcalcatrant,



The FBI NEVER tried full power 10mm loads.

The problem was ALWAYS the size of the guns.

Power was NEVER a factor, since they never even tried the full power loads, EVER.

They never switched to the 10mm light load from the full power since they never used it.

You need to do a little more research on the FBI 10mm "Lite" load.:upeyes:

Paul

glock20c10mm
01-13-2010, 20:29
Reread my post. I did not say that I've fired more DT ammo than anyone on GT, I said that I've fired more 10mm ammo than anybody on GT. I've actually only fired about 20 rds of DT ammo out of my G20.
My misunderstanding. Sorry.

I guess that between 1986 and 1991 that I fired over 100,000rds of 10mm ammo out of about 20 different pistol all at Uncle Sam's expense. This does not including the ones that I fired on my dime.
Can I assume more than 99% of +100,000 rounds was the FBI Lite load?

Gee Graig, you must be a newbie 10mm shooter. I have some old 10mm load data from back in the early-mid 80's, back when the only 10mm pistol on the market was the Bren Ten and it has the specs at 44,000psi. All the original Norma ammo was loaded to the 44,000psi spec. After D&D had several frames crack on the Bren Ten they had Norma to "lighten" to load a little and this is were the current 37,500psi SAAMI spec evolved from.
I think you're the only one besides me in caliber corner that knows anything about the original 44,000 psi original load level. I've brought it up a small handful of times before and nobody posted a peep about it.

Hey, if you like DT ammo, go for it. As for me, I'll pass.:wavey:

Paul
I'm still not buying the brass flow into the primer pockets.

glock20c10mm
01-13-2010, 20:38
Howdy sigcalcatrant,

You need to do a little more research on the FBI 10mm "Lite" load.:upeyes:

Paul
I understand this was meant toward sigcalcatrant, just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

True, the full power ammo was tested, but because they didn't need the full power load to get as much penetration depth as they cared to they developed the lite load. And, no full power load was ever issued for on duty carry.

And yes to an extent the size of the gun was an issue, though I don't know that the FBI actually ever said they wanted a smaller lighter platform, it's just a plus they ended up with when Smith and Wesson came up with the 40.

Am I leaving anything out Paul?



Craig

uz2bUSMC
01-13-2010, 20:50
You claim Norma loaded the original 10mm loads to 44,000psi. Where did you get that info from? I say you're making it up and have no clue. Besides you claiming DT is loading their ammo to at least 44,000psi. You have no idea what you're talking about and are grasping at straws. Nor do I believe you ever knew the 44,000psi number to exist til I brought it up.


I doubt also, that DT is loading to 44. For comercial purposes and a safey margin encompassing a wide variety of gun types, models, and conditions... that would be foolish. McNett has posted stout numbers in the reloading forum and I doubt he would risk livelyhood with hazardous info there, with comercially available powder, or with his own blend of powder from his company which share similar numbers on a given load.

Hey, Craig:wavey:... what up buddy?... I'm ba'ack.

stengun
01-13-2010, 21:49
Howdy glock20c10mm,



Can I assume more than 99% of +100,000 rounds was the FBI Lite load?


I think you're the only one besides me in caliber corner that knows anything about the original 44,000 psi original load level. I've brought it up a small handful of times before and nobody posted a peep about it.


I'm still not buying the brass flow into the primer pockets.

Nope, I never fired any of FBI "Lite" load. I fired +25,000 rds of the Win SilverTip.

One of the main loads we fired was the Federal 180gr FMJ-FP that clocked around 1250ft/sec and a 180gr lead FP load that clocked around 1150ft/sec. I also fired alot of the old Norma 190gr JHP, 200gr FMJ-FP, and the hi-vel 170gr JHP.

10mm ammo? I have a little 10mm ammo................

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/stengun/16A636FA.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/stengun/18638A7B.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/stengun/1208D579.jpg

This is just a little that I have handy at the time. There's 700rds, 200 primed once-fired brass, and 200 new Starline brass.

I never said that there was brass flow into the primer, just that the loads were overpressure and you could tell by looking at the primers because they were flattened.

Paul

MinervaDoe
01-13-2010, 22:12
:popcorn:

glock20c10mm
01-13-2010, 22:14
I never said that there was brass flow into the primer, just that the loads were overpressure and you could tell by looking at the primers because they were flattened.

Paul
Ok, flattened. I still don't buy it. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not. Maybe you got the "one" that flattened. If there was any common occurance of flattened primers with DT ammo, 10mm or whatever, we'ld have all heard about it a long time ago. The primers I've looked at of mine weren't flattened, and I've always inspected some of all boxes of DT 10mm ammo I've gone through. And to suggest there's anything commonly wrong with DT ammo is dumb. Which major ammo company hasn't produced a round at one time or another that hasn't blown up a gun? But you still shoot their ammo, right? No one says you should shoot DT ammo, as it is dumb for you to suggest others shouldn't or that there are any issues with it.

Nuff Said,
Craig

remat
01-14-2010, 00:07
Folks, feel free to believe what you like but in my experience (which is less than 100,000 rounds but more than 20) none of the 10mm loads discussed are bad (Silvertip, DoubleTap, Hornady XTP).

Well, except the Hydrashok 10mm in the pictures. That's a 40S&W-level loading not worthy of the 10mm name. :supergrin:

But, I think we have peaked the productivity of this thread and I am out.

regards

P.S. The 2010 Vltor Bren-Ten SHOTSHOW sightings will begin soon!

fsqridah
01-14-2010, 10:09
Yes, let's all get in a big group hug and remember we carry 10s. That's all that really matters. :rofl:

cowboywannabe
01-14-2010, 12:12
yes a group hug is needed....but some folks who carry 10mm still do so with it loaded only to .40s&w power levels....:whistling:

stengun
01-14-2010, 18:11
Howdy Everybody,

yes a group hug is needed....but some folks who carry 10mm still do so with it loaded only to .40s&w power levels....:whistling:

+!!:rofl:

I guess everybody on this thread is a 10mm fan.:wavey:

Yes, if you are going to carry a 10mm use full power loads.

There is nothing wrong with the DT loads in 10mm. They are full power 10mm loads without a doubt. I just think they are overpressure.

Hey, don't knock the Fed Hydra-Shok 10mm load. Even though it is a "lite" it was design for the 10mm and not just a 10mm load reduced to 40S&W specs. It has very little recoil compared to the DT loads and it does have excellent expansion and penetration. Not my fave load, but I bought them before I realized that they were a "lite" load.

Keep up the 10mm faith. Guys like us is why it is still around.:supergrin:

Paul

CanyonMan
01-14-2010, 19:32
Well, dang I'll chime in in here a second or two....

I have NO problem with the WWST in the 10mm. I have carried them more than once with confidence. I know nothing about DT, cause I never used them.

I roll my own. That being said. I roll 'em real close to the DT advertised Vels, for each bullet weight... I have had no signs (in mine of over pressure), and feel plenty comfortable that they will do what they need to.

My post makes no sense to me, so if y'all get something out of it, more power to ya. :dunno: :supergrin:


Guess I am just saying that if I am going to shoot my 10mm or carry it. I want that puppy to have it's full potensial coming out the business end...


Thanks for allowing me in the spot light for a moment mi amigo's.
Now I will exit stage right, and you old boys can carry on....

I will say that the last time I shot WW ST's my G20 did this....... (see pic below). hahahaha

Not against WW. It is a Looong story. I'm just feeling in a good humorous mood tonight, so what the heck....


Stay safe guys....




CanyonMan

fsqridah
01-14-2010, 20:22
Hey, don't knock the Fed Hydra-Shok 10mm load. Even though it is a "lite" it was design for the 10mm and not just a 10mm load reduced to 40S&W specs. It has very little recoil compared to the DT loads and it does have excellent expansion and penetration. Not my fave load, but I bought them before I realized that they were a "lite" load.

Hydra-shoks suck. 'nuff said.

cowboywannabe
01-14-2010, 20:58
yes, the Fed hydra-shok is just a long cased .40s&w, not a 10mm and not worthy of the 10mm designation.

glock20c10mm
01-14-2010, 22:34
Hydra-shoks suck. 'nuff said.
:agree: Along with agreeing with Cowboywannabe who said; not a 10mm and not worthy of the 10mm designation.

To say they are a joke is putting it way to lightly!


Craig

bagballa
01-15-2010, 04:42
Nice .40 load tho.. lol

fsqridah
01-15-2010, 19:43
Hydra-shoks were top of the line 20 years ago. Now, they've been surpassed by virtually every top-tier hollowpoint design. That little dinky post in the bottom of the cavity doesn't really do what it was designed to do, at least not against heavily clothed individuals. My girlfriend's sister's boyfriend dispatched a doe that I shot with a .270 during deer season with a 5" Kimber 1911 loaded with 230gr Hydra-shoks. It expanded beautifully, but it only penetrated about an inch into the deer's neck (he sort of missed the head, but it still finished it off). The completely lack of penetration was utterly pathetic, and it wasn't because it was a sub-par .45 ACP platform. I mean it was a 5" barrel, and the bullet barely penetrated the neck muscle.

I guess the point here is .45 ACP sucks at penetrating, lol. But the Hydra-shoks are just crappy bullets altogether.

If it makes you all happier, once we had it hanged upside down to skin it and I dug the Hydra-shok out, I pulled my G29 out and put a shot through the cranial area. All we heard after the blast was a "ding!" as the bullet weight straight through the head, punched through a thin piece of sheet metal about 30 feet away, and threw some mud up as it hit the ground. It was a DT 155gr Gold Dot, one that I will never recover.

glock20c10mm
01-15-2010, 22:10
.....I pulled my G29 out and put a shot through the cranial area. ..... It was a DT 155gr Gold Dot, one that I will never recover.
From my G29, the 155gr DT GD load is my favorite! Not that you didn't know. :supergrin: Darn good bullets for 1400fps!!!

Craig

stengun
01-15-2010, 23:29
Howdy,



yes, the Fed hydra-shok is just a long cased .40s&w, not a 10mm and not worthy of the 10mm designation.

Heck, compared to some of the hotter .40cal stuff like the Fed 155gr HST, it's a "Lite" 40cal.:rofl:

But, like I said it does have decent expansion and penetration. Not like the Wwin STs, but decent.

The first time I shot one back in the mid 90's it was like "pop" when I was use to the "KaBoom" of full power loads. I looked at my G20 and said "WTF?!?!":upeyes:

I fired the entire 20 round box and they were all the same.

Paul

G36shooter
01-17-2010, 19:56
So with all being said is the Win.STHP a quality 10mm load for every day SD carry? This would be in a G20 for 2 legged predators.

glock20c10mm
01-17-2010, 21:04
So with all being said is the Win.STHP a quality 10mm load for every day SD carry? This would be in a G20 for 2 legged predators.
IMO no. In my own backyard testing they don't reliably expand and are at this time an old school bullet design.

I suggest using loads including Gold Dot bullets or XTPs.

CanyonMan
01-17-2010, 21:15
IMO no. In my own backyard testing they don't reliably expand and are at this time an old school bullet design.

I suggest using loads including Gold Dot bullets or XTPs.



Although I do not have a major problem with the ST's.... I totally agree here.

Especially with the XTP's..... Xtp's can be counted on for the penetration needed to get to the vitals with a well placed shot. XTP's over ST's hands down....



Good shooting





CanyonMan

Ak.Hiker
01-17-2010, 21:32
The Silvertip at 175 grains is closer to the 180 grain XTP in weight. Do you think the 180 XTP would out penetrate the ST or would one want to move up to the 200 grain XTP for the extra weight. For SD I would think the 200 grain XTP may be to tough.

SDGlock23
01-17-2010, 22:35
I for one feel the 180gr XTP would out penetrate the 175gr ST. The XTP's are superb bullets.

CanyonMan
01-18-2010, 07:22
The Silvertip at 175 grains is closer to the 180 grain XTP in weight. Do you think the 180 XTP would out penetrate the ST or would one want to move up to the 200 grain XTP for the extra weight. For SD I would think the 200 grain XTP may be to tough.


Hey Amigo...

The XTP without question will out penetrate the ST bullet. I have no worry in 10mm with the ST, BUT would far rather have the XTP and would take it if the two were laying side by side. 180gr XTP will out penetrate the 175gr ST. No need to move to the 200gr XTP "out of that concern." that being said. I do like the 200gr XTP because i just like a heavier bullet in what ever caliber I use. But the 180gr is fine.

When it comes to SD IMO, you can't get a bullet "to tuff.' ;)

You never know what your going to face out there. People say "well only LEO's need a high cap mag, or a bullet that penetrates a car door/winshield et etc.." I say why is that? Man ther are any number of situations where a man can find himself in a fix where you may need these things. Stranded on the side of the road, a car full of BG's pulls over hungry for your bill fold. Hiking. All of a sudden your in POTTER's-Ville, there are several dudes putting the eyeball on ya. About a 1,000 more examples. I want a bullet that penetrates, (and sorry), I am not concerned with over penetration. (that does not happen that often any way). I am concerned with under penetration....


Yep. I like the XTP's.



Good shooting.




CanyonMan

glock20c10mm
01-18-2010, 20:10
The Silvertip at 175 grains is closer to the 180 grain XTP in weight. Do you think the 180 XTP would out penetrate the ST or would one want to move up to the 200 grain XTP for the extra weight. For SD I would think the 200 grain XTP may be to tough.
The 200gr XTP is not too tough based on various backyard testing I've done side by side with Double Tap 10mm in BOTH 180gr XTP and 200gr XTP with the G20C I used to have.

They expanded equally everytime no matter what the media, just that the 200gr would penetrate a little bit further (nothing to write home about IMO, but more none-the-less).

The thing I was most impressed with was the actual expanded diameter (the 180gr or 200gr XTPs). At Double Tap 10mm velocities they expand to right about .80", as opposed to more like .70" at 40S&W velocities. Quite nice for an XTP, and still with great penetration, for example compared to Gold Dots which still penetrate well, but not as far as the XTPs by a couple to a few inches or so.

At any rate, to sum up, from what I've seen in my backyard, there is absolutely NO reason not to go with the 200gr XTP over the 180gr version. You still get the expansion with even more penetration.

Don't have to worry about both the BGs arms, one in front of the other, in the way of his torso with 200gr XTPs! :scared:


Good Shooting,
Craig

cowboywannabe
01-18-2010, 20:52
ive investigated real life shootings of humans......the "out penetrate the 10mm STHP" phase looses a lot of merit in this area unless one plans on having to defeat intermediate barriers first.

the iceman
01-18-2010, 21:06
some folks who carry 10mm still do so with it loaded only to .40s&w power levels....:whistling:

Well at least it is a step in the right direction. :whistling:

cowboywannabe
02-03-2010, 19:55
i know this ia resurection of this thread but i was out today and shot my stock G20 with my last 15 rounds of Win STHP at the range where another officer was also. his chronograph showed i had a low of 1188 fps and a high or 1217 fps.

needless to say im no longer impressed with this round.....the box states 1290 pfs.

my stock G20 has a 4.6" polygonal barrel which seals better than coltss and s&w's standard 5" barrels....so where does Win get that 1290 fps? their imagination or a carbine barrel.

im so damn disappointed now because DT is having q.c. problems from what i read, BB is just out of my budget, CB doesnt load their 10mm much more than their 40s&w and GA is mid powered stuff.

Snapper2
02-03-2010, 20:12
have you tried reedsammo.com? He claims 1300fps with silvertips. I've bought alot of 10mm ammo from him before I started reloading. Good stuff.:cool:

remat
02-03-2010, 20:27
my stock G20 has a 4.6" polygonal barrel which seals better than coltss and s&w's standard 5" barrels....so where does Win get that 1290 fps? their imagination or a carbine barrel.


They claim it is from a 5.5" (it is not a typo I asked) whatever that might be.



im so damn disappointed now because DT is having q.c. problems from what i read, BB is just out of my budget, CB doesnt load their 10mm much more than their 40s&w and GA is mid powered stuff.

I am continuing to purchase it. I just bought some last week. The bonded bullets were indeed Gold Dot despite folks here reporting it is not.

Not to say that some complaints are valid -- however, there is a thread where somebody claimed 80 out of 100 rounds of Federal failed to have primer ignition but it was not important enough to contact the place of purchase or Federal.
hmm..

the iceman
02-03-2010, 22:00
have you tried reedsammo.com? He claims 1300fps with silvertips. I've bought alot of 10mm ammo from him before I started reloading. Good stuff.:cool:

I placed an order and it shipped last week. Just waiting for it to arrive.

The ammo is in new brass, right?

Ak.Hiker
02-03-2010, 22:19
At least Winchester still loads the 10mm. I really can not think of to many chores that a 10mm can be called on to do that can not be taken care of by the 175 grain Silvertip at 1200 or a Hornady 180 grain XTP at 1180. Both will outrun a good 40 S&W load and the 40 is pretty well thought of. Even the 200 grain Blazer TMJ at 1050 will offer some pretty impressive penetration if more penetration is needed than offered by a JHP like the Silvertip. The same could be said for the 200 grain Hornady XTP at 1050.

Snapper2
02-04-2010, 06:35
I placed an order and it shipped last week. Just waiting for it to arrive.

The ammo is in new brass, right?

Yes, all his ammo I've bought has been new factory.I believe he uses winchester brass and even uses primer sealant. :cool:

HOV
02-04-2010, 09:20
One thing to remember is that the Win 175gr ST bullet/load was developed for the 10mm and not for the .40S&W. I have had poor results using .40S&W bullets that were driven at 10mm speeds. The basically blow apart w/out and penetration.

Paul

Is there a difference between .40S&W bullets and 10mm? I'm just starting out with 10mm and purchased dies along with my first pistol; what I found in bullets were labeled .40S&W/10mm so I figured the same bullets were used in either application.

Ak.Hiker
02-04-2010, 10:39
Is there a difference between .40S&W bullets and 10mm? I'm just starting out with 10mm and purchased dies along with my first pistol; what I found in bullets were labeled .40S&W/10mm so I figured the same bullets were used in either application.

As already mentioned the 175 grain Silvertip is designed for the 10mm. Winchester has a similar bullet that they load in the 41 Magnum at about the same performance level as the 10mm. As long as you are using load data from the major bullet companies like Sierra you should be fine. Companies like Sierra, Speer, and Hornady are not going to publish reloading data that will excede their bullets velocity window. The Hornady 180 and 200 grain XTP bullets have a good reputation as far as their ability to hold up to the hotter 10mm loads.

cowboywannabe
02-04-2010, 20:24
what stock 10mm uses a 5.5" bbl?

remat
02-05-2010, 03:08
what stock 10mm uses a 5.5" bbl?

Beats me....I asked them that when I asked if it was a typo. cofirmed it was correct but didn't answer the second part of the question.

cowboywannabe
02-05-2010, 07:10
sounds like a test barrel not connected to a real gun, either that or they "pad" their numbers for better sales. id bet its a little of both.

Ak.Hiker
02-05-2010, 09:19
The big ammo companies use test barrels. Think about how many guns a company like Winchester, Remington, or Federal would need to be able to test their ammo. Buffalo Bore is known to publish real world data and they test their ammo in real guns. I noticed Federal changed their data on the Cast Core ammo line a while back. The velocity numbers went down but the load is the same. The new data was published using a shorter barrel. It would be nice if the industry came up with standards in each caliber.

cowboywannabe
02-05-2010, 09:29
a company like Win can afford the "standard" barrel length gun for each caliber they sell to give real world numbers and not some trumped up test barrel stuuf.

i was really disappointed in Win when i saw what their 10mm STHP did (velocity) from a real gun.

cowboywannabe
02-05-2010, 14:05
maybe i should just dump my G20 for a G21.

cant really on anyone to make real 10mm loads that are affordable.

Ak.Hiker
02-05-2010, 23:35
Years ago I read that when Bill Ruger was asked if he was going to come out with a 10mm his comment was I already have a 45 acp. He was known for selling guns that the average working man could afford. Perhaps he was just looking out for the working stiff. Nothing wrong with a Glock 21 or a Ruger 45 acp.

cowboywannabe
02-06-2010, 07:02
start up costs and storage of powder and equipment is my problem here, thats why i dont reload.

maybe one day i'll have the room and the front money do load practice only ammo but id still have to buy the defensive stuff from a company with lawyers and q.c. guides.

para38super
02-06-2010, 12:17
I dont have a 10mm, but I use silvertips for my Colt 38 super and they perform great. If you can find Silver tips buy them. I would!

remat
02-06-2010, 14:07
Years ago I read that when Bill Ruger was asked if he was going to come out with a 10mm his comment was I already have a 45 acp. He was known for selling guns that the average working man could afford. Perhaps he was just looking out for the working stiff. Nothing wrong with a Glock 21 or a Ruger 45 acp.

The P90 was originally designed for 10mm but never entered production and was dropped when the 40 took off. I think it has more to do with sales. Nothing wrong with that, there is no arguing the popularity and appeal of the 45ACP. Sigarms did a survey on whether or not to chamber 10mm in their GSR/Revolution line. They determined that the 10mm market was just too small to justify gearing up a new production.

Ruger may have been looking at cost of ammo in comparison too. Definitely spendy and less available in comparison. Situation definitely has not improved there. :(

I do wish Ruger would chamber the P90 or P345 in 10mm though. It would be a great platform.

Ak.Hiker
02-06-2010, 23:44
The P90 is know for being a good reliable and tough design. I never knew it was designed to handle the 10mm. I guess it is over built. I bet it would not have any trouble with a steady diet of 45 acp +P.

.45Super-Man
02-07-2010, 00:00
The P90 was originally designed for 10mm but never entered production and was dropped when the 40 took off. I think it has more to do with sales. Nothing wrong with that, there is no arguing the popularity and appeal of the 45ACP. Sigarms did a survey on whether or not to chamber 10mm in their GSR/Revolution line. They determined that the 10mm market was just too small to justify gearing up a new production.

Ruger may have been looking at cost of ammo in comparison too. Definitely spendy and less available in comparison. Situation definitely has not improved there. :(

I do wish Ruger would chamber the P90 or P345 in 10mm though. It would be a great platform.

I've heard the rumor more than once that the P90 was designed for the 10mm. A steady diet of full power 10mm would wreck the P90 in no time! There's a reason no one makes an aluminum framed 10mm.

10mm29
02-07-2010, 02:38
The 200gr XTP is not too tough based on various backyard testing I've done side by side with Double Tap 10mm in BOTH 180gr XTP and 200gr XTP with the G20C I used to have.

They expanded equally everytime no matter what the media, just that the 200gr would penetrate a little bit further (nothing to write home about IMO, but more none-the-less).

The thing I was most impressed with was the actual expanded diameter (the 180gr or 200gr XTPs). At Double Tap 10mm velocities they expand to right about .80", as opposed to more like .70" at 40S&W velocities. Quite nice for an XTP, and still with great penetration, for example compared to Gold Dots which still penetrate well, but not as far as the XTPs by a couple to a few inches or so.

At any rate, to sum up, from what I've seen in my backyard, there is absolutely NO reason not to go with the 200gr XTP over the 180gr version. You still get the expansion with even more penetration.

Don't have to worry about both the BGs arms, one in front of the other, in the way of his torso with 200gr XTPs! :scared:


Good Shooting,
Craig


I'm a little lost here. You say the 200 is a better choice than the 180 due to penetration, but your favorite load is the 155 xtp. Could you explain the reason?

remat
02-09-2010, 23:29
I've heard the rumor more than once that the P90 was designed for the 10mm. A steady diet of full power 10mm would wreck the P90 in no time! There's a reason no one makes an aluminum framed 10mm.

Cost of development and lack of sales? :)
JK, I do get your point although I would get a P90 in 10mm. If any of them could take it, that would be the one.

I bet folks said that it couldn't be done when Glock introduced the 20, and then again when the 29 was introduced.