winchester Ranger T legal for civilians? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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eamonher
12-29-2009, 21:54
Can anyone use this round for selfdefence? Im in texas any one know if I would have a problem if I actually had to use it(hope never). Any other recommendation for a good self defense round, the platform will be a g23

MTS532
12-29-2009, 22:11
Can anyone use this round for selfdefence? Im in texas any one know if I would have a problem if I actually had to use it(hope never). Any other recommendation for a good self defense round, the platform will be a g23

If it's legal for you to own hollowpoint ammunition, you can own Ranger Ts. It's only Winchester's company policy not to sell to civilians.

It's perfectly legal, as long as your state or local ordinances allow hollowpoints.

eamonher
12-29-2009, 22:32
If it's legal for you to own hollowpoint ammunition, you can own Ranger Ts. It's only Winchester's company policy not to sell to civilians.

It's perfectly legal, as long as your state or local ordinances allow hollowpoints.

so basically if my local walmart sells hollow points? im good? or where would i search for something like that? Im in texas

thegriz18
12-29-2009, 22:44
so basically if my local walmart sells hollow points? im good? or where would i search for something like that? Im in texas

Texas Penal Code

To shorten your search.... Very legal in Texas.

If you can find it online for a decent price pick it up. If not The Winchester PDX1 is a very good round. I tested both PDX1 in 165 grain and RA40TA in .40 SW with very nice results. The Rangers expand more but the PDX1 (Ranger Bonded) hold together through anything.

eamonher
12-29-2009, 22:56
Texas Penal Code

To shorten your search.... Very legal in Texas.

If you can find it online for a decent price pick it up. If not The Winchester PDX1 is a very good round. I tested both PDX1 in 165 grain and RA40TA in .40 SW with very nice results. The Rangers expand more but the PDX1 (Ranger Bonded) hold together through anything.


Thanks. Yeah I have some of those pdx1s but it seems kind of expensive to shoot around 200 of them just to see if they run good in my g23 and then start relying on them(about $1.00 per round) the rangers are more affordable

thegriz18
12-29-2009, 22:59
Thanks. Yeah I have some of those pdx1s but it seems kind of expensive to shoot around 200 of them just to see if they run good in my g23 and then start relying on them(about $1.00 per round) the rangers are more affordable

Yea the Rangers are more affordable. If you shoot a few mags through, say 40 or so you should be fine. My G23 eats everything. I simply buy some SD ammo, run 14 rounds through it to check for accuracy or function and then go about my business. If you buy the 165 grain version of PDX1 or Ranger, the WWB 165 grain FMJ load duplicates these loads very well for training. I personally am a big fan of 165 grain 40 rounds.

eamonher
12-29-2009, 23:02
Yea the Rangers are more affordable. If you shoot a few mags through, say 40 or so you should be fine. My G23 eats everything. I simply buy some SD ammo, run 14 rounds through it to check for accuracy or function and then go about my business. If you buy the 165 grain version of PDX1 or Ranger, the WWB 165 grain FMJ load duplicates these loads very well for training. I personally am a big fan of 165 grain 40 rounds.

So no need for running all those rounds?

thegriz18
12-29-2009, 23:10
So no need for running all those rounds?

200 is a little much. If your G23 is new then maybe go through 100. If you've had it for a while and it has been jam free then I say a mag or two and you're good. If the round isn't going to feed or shoot well you will notice this in the first 15 shots typically. If the ammo feeds and then jams on the 150th round the problem probably lies with your pistol, not the ammo. Winchester LE ammo is premium stuff. You shouldn't find any issues with it. I don't/can't spend 200 bucks on premium ammo just to make sure it works in my pistol. It's a damn Glock, if rocks had primers it would shoot those too. Test your ammo, but don't waste your money.

thegriz18
12-29-2009, 23:11
This being said, there will be someone on here soon that will tell you that you need to run 750 rounds of the SD ammo through your pistol before you can trust your life to it. To each his own.

eamonher
12-29-2009, 23:20
This being said, there will be someone on here soon that will tell you that you need to run 750 rounds of the SD ammo through your pistol before you can trust your life to it. To each his own.

:rofl::rofl: Ok got it thanks. Just one last question. when they say run some of your carry ammo through your gun what are we really testing there the gun or the magazine? I mean should i run lets say two mags through the gun, same magazine or different one? does it matter?

MTS532
12-29-2009, 23:49
Ok got it thanks. Just one last question. when they say run some of your carry ammo through your gun what are we really testing there the gun or the magazine? I mean should i run lets say two mags through the gun, same magazine or different one? does it matter?

You're testing the gun for reliability and for accuracy at different ranges. You should use the magazines you intend to use with the gun you carry.

In this way, the gun and the magazines are tested for reliability and you will have some idea where the rounds will impact at different ranges.

squirrelsniper
12-30-2009, 00:30
Answers in bold print.

Can anyone use this round for selfdefence?
Yes. Winchester itself is the one that restricts sale to LEO only. Company rule, not a law.

Im in texas any one know if I would have a problem if I actually had to use it(hope never).
Some overzealous attorney could possibly try to twist why you were using ammunition that the manufacturer specified as LE-only. Of course an appropriate answer would be that you chose it for the very reason that LEO throughout the country use it and you knew you would be getting a quality product without having to simply guess at what you would be getting, and that the ammo is often available from several dealers who sell to civilians.

Any other recommendation for a good self defense round, the platform will be a g23
Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot are also excellent rounds.

betyourlife
12-30-2009, 01:22
You're testing the gun for reliability and for accuracy at different ranges. You should use the magazines you intend to use with the gun you carry.

In this way, the gun and the magazines are tested for reliability and you will have some idea where the rounds will impact at different ranges.

This. Just because the mags, ammo etc. are marked Glock, Winchester, etc. doesn't mean you can't get a lemon. Test the gun and mags you intend to carry, and try to use ammo from the same lot you tested when you load your mags for carry.

Test it enough until YOU'RE comfortable. The reality is that if there is a problem, it will likely surface very quickly and consistently.

beforeobamabans
12-30-2009, 01:32
Yes. Winchester itself is the one that restricts sale to LEO only. Company rule, not a law.
So what happens is that ammo dealers who sell to both LE and the public place large orders with Winchester to service a PD order and if for some reason they don't take it all, some dealers feel free to sell any excess to the public. That's why its availability is kind of hit and miss. For some reason, there seems to be a lot of it around at the moment.

IndyGunFreak
12-30-2009, 01:35
750rds? That seems a little extreme, but I don't think 1-200 is out of line at all.

Only thing I don't like about Rangers, is the absolute PITA that they are to find. Personally, I'd try to get a round that is a little more available. The Winchester PDX1 is getting some really good reviews. Gold Dots are usually easy to find. The *generic* Winchester USA JHP's are also pretty good.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what round you carry, placement is what gets it done.

IGF

beforeobamabans
12-30-2009, 01:38
750rds? That seems a little extreme, but I don't think 1-200 is out of line at all.

Only thing I don't like about Rangers, is the absolute PITA that they are to find. Personally, I'd try to get a round that is a little more available. The Winchester PDX1 is getting some really good reviews. Gold Dots are usually easy to find. The *generic* Winchester USA JHP's are also pretty good.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what round you carry, placement is what gets it done.

IGF
PM coming at you that may help.

G23c
12-30-2009, 11:03
200 is a little much. If your G23 is new then maybe go through 100. If you've had it for a while and it has been jam free then I say a mag or two and you're good. If the round isn't going to feed or shoot well you will notice this in the first 15 shots typically. If the ammo feeds and then jams on the 150th round the problem probably lies with your pistol, not the ammo. Winchester LE ammo is premium stuff. You shouldn't find any issues with it. I don't/can't spend 200 bucks on premium ammo just to make sure it works in my pistol. It's a damn Glock, if rocks had primers it would shoot those too. Test your ammo, but don't waste your money.

Griz, this is the quote of this thread. :rofl:

ZombieKing
12-30-2009, 12:07
:lol:

That is a good line.

No ammo that I know of is banned to the general public. It's just various companies that don't want to sell to civilians which really hacks me off. I'm LEO so I can buy it but seriously what the heck is the difference? This bullet isn't that special.

If I had the money I'd start my own ammo factory and sell everything to anyone. I'd also sell it in 50 rounds boxes instead of gouging people with 20-25 round boxes. And it'd be damn good ammo too.

I'd bet you'd see Winchester start selling those super-duper "Ranger T" to civilians then...

eamonher
12-31-2009, 01:27
no its just a matter of where to find them

Eagle22
01-01-2010, 07:04
Federal HST .40 180gr Hollow points

and Federal FMJs in .40 180gr

Shoot and feel almost identical. They might be.

go plinking with FMJs box of 50 Federal Premium from wally world under $14.00

and order the Federal HST 180grs on line. ~ $25 / $27 box of 50

Practice with the FJM, carry the HSTs Use the same brand and wt.

And are not the Winchester SXT ( Same EXact Thing ) as tallons ??

just say'n

IndyGunFreak
01-01-2010, 07:20
I'd bet you'd see Winchester start selling those super-duper "Ranger T" to civilians then...

The PDX1 performs in a similar fashion.. I'm actually tempted to buy some PDX1's to try.

IGF

glocksterr
01-01-2010, 07:49
are not the Winchester SXT ( Same EXact Thing ) as tallons ??




current production, they are not the same.

thegriz18
01-01-2010, 09:30
Winchester SXT is also being dropped from the Winchester lineup in favor of PDX1.

Clem Eastwood
01-02-2010, 03:02
if i go with a new round my testing proceedure is as follows:

with my carry mags, i load 2 mags of the new JHP load.

i shoot one mag through the weapon while it is perfectly clean as i would be carrying it or keeping it around the house for SD purposes.

then i run 300-500rds of the cheapest, nastiest practice ammo i can through it to get it hot and nice and dirty.

then i shoot the second mag of JHPs through it. if it doesnt have a problem with JHPs clean and dirty than i trust it. i have also heard the "you need to run a case of your carry ammo through it to make sure it wont have a problem. forget that bull*****.

eamonher
01-02-2010, 23:50
if i go with a new round my testing proceedure is as follows:

with my carry mags, i load 2 mags of the new JHP load.

i shoot one mag through the weapon while it is perfectly clean as i would be carrying it or keeping it around the house for SD purposes.

then i run 300-500rds of the cheapest, nastiest practice ammo i can through it to get it hot and nice and dirty.

then i shoot the second mag of JHPs through it. if it doesnt have a problem with JHPs clean and dirty than i trust it. i have also heard the "you need to run a case of your carry ammo through it to make sure it wont have a problem. forget that bull*****.

this makes sence thanks

DScottHewitt
01-03-2010, 00:08
If it's legal for you to own hollowpoint ammunition, you can own Ranger Ts. It's only Winchester's company policy not to sell to civilians.

It's perfectly legal, as long as your state or local ordinances allow hollowpoints.

This.

glocksterr
01-03-2010, 05:50
this makes sence thanks

this makes NO sence. i dont need to do it the way it been for years and years.

i got a better way.

LMAO!

Mas Ayoob
01-03-2010, 06:37
The company policy of Winchester with Ranger-T or Federal with HST does not carry power of law. It COULD, of course, be used as an argument by either a prosecutor or a plaintiff's lawyer desperate to make a case against the user. I haven't personally seen that happen, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

FWIW, at a seminar with Winchester executives a couple of years ago, I asked if this had ever come up to their knowledge, and if the company had ever been contacted by either side of a case in this regard. Their reply was that it had not.

Personally, I carry both HST and Ranger and have given Ranger-T to my significant other to CCW. Her answer and mine, if challenged on this, would be simple:

"I figured if the police thought it was the best to use to protect me and my loved ones from violent criminals, it was logically the best for ME to use to protect myself and my loved ones from violent criminals."

oldsoldier
01-03-2010, 07:43
I do just like an earlier poster. One mag of carry ammo to include one in the chamber from a clean gun just as I would carry it. Then I fire about 200 rds of my handloads through the gun. It would be rare for me to fire less than 200 rds per range session. I finish up with the spare magazine I intend to carry with one in the chamber. That is all the testing I'm going to do with expensive self defense ammunition. I use Federal HST and Winchester RA40T. There is a lot of it available right now at about $26 to $28 a box of 50.

smokin762
01-03-2010, 07:56
"I figured if the police thought it was the best to use to protect me and my loved ones from violent criminals, it was logically the best for ME to use to protect myself and my loved ones from violent criminals."

This is in my mind set also.


I feel the Police can afford to test or at least get their information from the FBI. I cannot afford to do my own extensive testing and I am sure the FBI is not going to call me back and freely give me the information that I am looking for so I use what they use. It makes sense to me.

DRT
01-03-2010, 10:07
The company policy of Winchester with Ranger-T or Federal with HST does not carry power of law. It COULD, of course, be used as an argument by either a prosecutor or a plaintiff's lawyer desperate to make a case against the user. I haven't personally seen that happen, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

FWIW, at a seminar with Winchester executives a couple of years ago, I asked if this had ever come up to their knowledge, and if the company had ever been contacted by either side of a case in this regard. Their reply was that it had not.

Personally, I carry both HST and Ranger and have given Ranger-T to my significant other to CCW. Her answer and mine, if challenged on this, would be simple:

"I figured if the police thought it was the best to use to protect me and my loved ones from violent criminals, it was logically the best for ME to use to protect myself and my loved ones from violent criminals."

Given that you have contacts inside the major ammo manufacturers, any idea why they keep their premium non-bonded ammo (HST and Ranger Tseries)as "L/E only" yet they readily make their latest bonded ammo, specifically Gold dot and PDX1 (same as Ranger Bonded), available to civilians? If bonding was such a premium feature, you'd think the opposite would be true. Any insight you can provide would be appreciated.

Mas Ayoob
01-03-2010, 12:08
Frankly, DRT, I haven't heard a reason for it that makes sense to me. In the old days, companies would sell +P+ only to large institutional purchasers that would sign waivers not to sue them if high pressures blew up junk or defective guns. That's still true with some of the large manufacturers. That reasoning would not of course apply to a high-tech 9mm 147 grain or .45 ACP standard pressure 230 grain. Just one guy's opinion, of course.

tx787
06-13-2010, 14:04
There's really two different scenarios. One you've got the Ranger T ammo which Winchester decided not to sell to the public to appease the government, same as with FNH not selling certain 5.7 ammo to the public for the same reasons. It's not illegal to own it, some ammo is illegal to own, that's usually armor piercing rifle ammo, which is the opposite of a hollow point.

The main thing people run into is marketing. CCI/Speer which makes Hydrashok, HST, Gold Dot and others sell 50 round boxes to LE distributors for about the same price as they sell 20 round boxes marked personal protection to gun shops, Cabelas, etc. I've seen 50 round boxes of LE marked Gold Dots for less than 20 round boxes of personal protection and it's identical.

HST is currently LE marked only because they can't make enough to keep up with the demand. I would wager (if betting was legal) that you will see civilian HST within the next 6-20 months, and it will be in 20 round boxes and cost more than the current 50 round LE boxed HST.

My personal preference is to carry personal protection marked rounds like Gold Dots or Remington "Ultimate Home Defense" and only use LE marked stuff like HST and Rangers for HD where the castle doctrine provides a strong legal shield.

MajesticLT03
06-13-2010, 14:40
I just picked up some Ranger T's in the 9mm 124 grain +p variant yesterday at the gunshow :whistling::cool:

cowboy1964
06-13-2010, 14:48
Use Gold Dots. They're street proven, bonded, and Speer sells them to the public and they are relatively easy to find.

Eagle22
06-14-2010, 13:03
Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot are also excellent rounds.

these are what I use.

Also look to find the same FMJ, brand and wt of the HP.

IMO training or plinking with the same brand and wt ammo as the HP then it should not be any differnt when you do use the HPs.

Cheers