What's The Best AR Bang For The Buck ? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : What's The Best AR Bang For The Buck ?


Glocker08
12-30-2009, 00:19
I'm new to AR's and I'm looking into possibly getting my first one. The thing is,I will be on a budget when I go to buy it. I'm only looking to spend around $700. Yeah, I know that's a tall order, as most new AR's go for around $1k at least.

Can anyone recommended a good,reliable AR that meets my criteria ? Thanks in advance.

pleaforwar
12-30-2009, 00:35
Depends on the usage really.

If you want a rifle that can be pounded in the dirt and run like a champ then I would recommend you save up a little more.

If you want a rifle for purely recreational or sporting purposes, then a Stag should meet your needs. Here is a link to one on Gunbroker near your price range. :thumbsup:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=151666815

HAIL CAESAR
12-30-2009, 02:35
Depends on the usage really.



Can't agree more. Op never said if he wanted a blaster, a varmint gun, or ?????

But again, the advise with going with a STAG Arms is spot on too.

OUSooner
12-30-2009, 05:01
You can get a brand new del ton for that. Might check out the Cmmg bargain bin too.

faawrenchbndr
12-30-2009, 05:24
oops,......misread the OP's question.

Would be very hard for me to recommend a sub-$700 AR.

CMMG bargain-bin?
DPMS?
Del-Ton?
Model 1 Sales?

I would highly suggest saving a few more $'s,
you can get very good quality for a bit more money.

I recently picked up a Colt Sporter Target with a Colt 6920 barrel assembley.
ALL Colt parts, unfired, for $850

jrs93accord
12-30-2009, 05:48
Del-Ton is probably your best bang for the buck these days. This is coming from a guy who has two dozen ARs that includes Colt, LMT, Noveske, BCM, Sabre Defence, CMMG, Del-Ton, DPMS, and a few others.

banger
12-30-2009, 06:30
If you pump up your price point those few dollars, the world of QUALITY opens up.

If you insist on trying to buy the rifle "on the cheap", it is much more of a "crap shoot".

Buying a "cheap" AR is like buying a cheap pair of shoes. They might cover your feet, but you will never be happy or comfortable.

Buy quality and buy once.

CHEF-LOU
12-30-2009, 09:34
Doublestar $649 @ Buds Guns although I agree, save alittle more and get quality.

Norcal911
12-30-2009, 09:43
The lowest tier I ever recommend to people on a budget is Stag or S&W, both are solid. Buy once cry once. You never know when you are going to get BRD and start going to classes, loading it up for HD, and shooting 3 gun matches with it. If you buy Stag or S&W, at least you will have a solid foundation to built on as you progress. BCM is absolutely top tier but I think you can get some of their no frills rifles pretty reasonably. I generally don't recommend Delton, DPMS, Olympic, Bushmaster, doublestar, etc. This is my opinion and my opinion only, I don't want to start another one of our daily brand pissing matches. I run Colt, LMT, and lots of BCM stuff in some parts guns and I carry an AR daily-Norcal911

BrandonG17
12-30-2009, 12:10
Olympic Arms? I know those go for around $600, because I have one

USMC03
12-30-2009, 12:54
Just something to think about. Is it better to spend $700 on a AR that may or may not be reliable or save another $200 - $300 more and get a carbine that is reliable?


Save your money, do some research, and buy a quality firearm. In a few years from now if you have a reliable firearm, are you going to remember that it took you a few extra months to save for a quality carbine? No.

If you buy cheap and get somthing that's not reliable, how long will you regret that purchase?

I bought a DPMS in 1994. I still regret that purchase.




rob_s' M4 comparison chart shows in black and white the difference in features between different manufacturers:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=1

and

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=0




Hope this helps.

internal
12-30-2009, 13:06
I'd find a COLT 6920 for $1000-$1100 or put together my own lower and buy a complete BCM upper.


There's been stripped lowers on sale for $50-$75 lately and then I found this today:

http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/598.php
It's a complete MOE lower kit for $150.

That $150 lower kit and a $50-$100 stripped lower is all you need to get to complete a lower then just buy a complete BCM upper when you get the dough.

Seriously those two options are you best bets if you want to do things right from the get go.

RMTactical
12-30-2009, 13:15
The cheapest I would go is Stag Arms.

Brian Brazier
12-30-2009, 13:18
Doublestar makes a great rifle, Centerfire Systems has them for $750

Nutt51
12-30-2009, 14:13
Glocker,

This is just my opinion, but I would consider the previous pard's
messages. Don't just settle for getting something fast that you won't
be happy with. Save just a little extra and get a really top line
AR that will last you for years. I have been down this road and I tell
you this from experience. I'm not trashing the other guns that have
been recommended, there are some fine entry level firearms out there,
but the prices are coming down and for just a little more you can
have an A1 rifle to build on, you're not that far off.
www.budsgunshop.com has a Colt Match Target 16 for $982.00
and that's the delivered price. They have 2 more Colt models for about
$50.00 more. Just my 2 cents. Good luck and good shootin'.

Capt Obvious
12-30-2009, 14:41
My first was a stag and It still runs great. They really offer a dang nice rifle for the price.

Randolph da man
12-30-2009, 17:13
I would recommend taking up a hobby you can afford.

Matchbox cars or beenie babies.

rockapede
12-30-2009, 17:46
I would recommend taking up a hobby you can afford.

Matchbox cars or beenie babies.

There's no reason to be a jerk.

To the OP, I agree with the Stag and S&W recommendations. If you can save up for something like a Colt, you won't regret it.

MCKNBRD
12-30-2009, 17:50
I would recommend taking up a hobby you can afford.

Matchbox cars or beenie babies.

Wow. I would recommend staying out of threads that you can't give decent advice in.

No need to insult someone just because their price point isn't yours.

OP, I'd recommend looking for a used AR from whomever. Don't worry about staking everything, MPIing the parts, or making sure that your rifle has 47lbs of lightweight crap hanging off of it. Pick one up. Do some research online as to what is 'right' (maybe not best; you can't usually get a cadillac at chevy prices) and make yours like it. Stake the bolt carrier; make sure the extractor is solid (black insert and an o-ring around the spring), pick up some magazines and ammo, and shoot the heck out of it. Break it; you'll learn how to fix it. You'll learn what YOU like, not what eleventybillion internet guys like.

Buy what you can afford; shoot it as much as you can, enjoy it. If you want/need something for home defense, pick up a shotgun.

Byrdman

faawrenchbndr
12-30-2009, 18:19
I would recommend taking up a hobby you can afford.

Matchbox cars or beenie babies.

:honkie:

keninnavarre
12-30-2009, 18:48
i would recommend taking up a hobby you can afford.

Matchbox cars or beenie babies.

驴子小丑观点什么都不意味对事实。 我讲话恭敬地,感谢

keninnavarre
12-30-2009, 18:57
I'm new to AR's and I'm looking into possibly getting my first one. The thing is,I will be on a budget when I go to buy it. I'm only looking to spend around $700. Yeah, I know that's a tall order, as most new AR's go for around $1k at least.

Can anyone recommended a good,reliable AR that meets my criteria ? Thanks in advance.

CMMG has been a great carbine for me. Not the bargain bin crapshoot, though. Smiths can be had for $750 or so, and Stag is great, too.
Of these 3, I prefer Smith, Stag, and CMMG, in that order.

Kingfisher
12-30-2009, 19:20
I would recommend taking up a hobby you can afford.

Matchbox cars or beenie babies.

Bad day?
Don't you have a wife to slap or some kids to beat?:steamed:

Alaskapopo
12-30-2009, 20:11
I'm new to AR's and I'm looking into possibly getting my first one. The thing is,I will be on a budget when I go to buy it. I'm only looking to spend around $700. Yeah, I know that's a tall order, as most new AR's go for around $1k at least.

Can anyone recommended a good,reliable AR that meets my criteria ? Thanks in advance.

In that price range you may be able to get a Stag. That would be what I recommend in that price range. Best bang for the buck overall is Bravo Company.
Pat

LLL
12-30-2009, 20:16
If you buy cheap and get somthing that's not reliable, how long will you regret that purchase?

I bought a DPMS in 1994. I still regret that purchase.

Hope this helps.

a little more info please, I just bought a DPMS and got alot( or so I thought) why DPMS so bad. I hope I didnt make a mistake.
LLL

kgain673
12-30-2009, 20:16
buy a complete upper from whom ever you want, then build the lower, its not very hard and you save money. For a grand you can build a top notch AR. And your lucky your not building during the election like I was. You will have much more money to buy those accessories you WILL want soon after its built.

tedg-23
12-30-2009, 20:39
I got a Double Star from Bud's, 2 years ago and I've never once regretted it. Mine was $699 delivered. My FFL dealer was impressed when he received it and I'm still impressed after over 5,000rds. of flawless performance! The only problem I have now is the wanting of more Double Stars!!!!!!!!!!!:2gun:

Alaskapopo
12-30-2009, 20:42
a little more info please, I just bought a DPMS and got alot( or so I thought) why DPMS so bad. I hope I didnt make a mistake.
LLL

There is a huge thread on here about DPMS. I listed several issues. I don't want to re hash all of it. But just take a look. Also take a look at the chart posted earlier and the explanation of what those features on the chart mean.
Pat

Cgrubb1
12-30-2009, 21:16
Im in the same boat as you. Want a decent weapon at an affordable price. I am looking for a 1 size fits all gun. Target shooting/practicing, coyote/ varmint hunting, home defense. I don't have 1500 to buy a top tier gun, or have 3 differnt guns for different purposes. Many people think just because it isn't BcM colt lmt etc. It is automatically going to fall apart in a self defense situation. "I wouldn't trust my life to a ... (insert low tier brand)" and this is true if I were in a war zone and had a distinct possibility of encountering an 8 hr firefight, or other extreme situations, however if you maintain a weapon properly, you wont have any problems. An intruder is just as dead with a well placed shot from a $700 bushmaster as a $1400 LMT. I am building a budget gun now with aeropercision lower with dpms lpk ($160 including shipping and transfers) a magul moe hand guard, stock, grip, milspec buffer tube, spring and buffer ($99 shipped). If I can find the Daniel defense xv upper for $500 when I have saved enough for the upper, I will have a great gun that would be in the range you are looking for.

hdbob
12-31-2009, 01:07
Just bought a Armalite form Budsgunshop for 800 deleivered.... Havent shot it yet, but have always heard good about armalite..

USMC03
12-31-2009, 09:38
a little more info please, I just bought a DPMS and got alot( or so I thought) why DPMS so bad. I hope I didnt make a mistake.
LLL

The DPMS gun that I'm refering to was a complete factory DPMS AR15A2. For one the gun was never reliable. For two, the gun in it's origional configuration was a 20" AR15 A2. I purchased a DPMS 16" M4 upper for it a few years later direct from DPMS. The DPMS 16" M4 upper wouldn't fit on the DPMS lower. When I contacted DPMS, they told me I was SOL.


Background on me and my experience with DPMS:

I have been hosting 2 to 5 tactical training classes a year, ever year, since 2001. I attend all of the classes that I host (as a student). Some of the recent instructors I've hosted are Pat Rogers, Magpul Dynamics, Larry Vickers, LMS Defense, etc. Outside of the classes I host, I also take other training classes.

From May to September of 2009 I took the following classes:

-Pat Rogers (EAG Tactical) 3 day Carbine Operator's Course
-Dave Neth 3 day SWAT Carbine and Pistol Course
-Magpul Dynamics - Dynamic Handgun 1 and Dynamic Handgun 2
-LMS Defense 2 day Carbine Course


I also shoot competition. I shoot montly run and gun rifle (AR15) competition out to 425 yards: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1029762, some 3 gun, and other competition.


DPMS has a good reputation among hobby shooters and some of the competition community. But consider how many rounds you shoot during a match, generally 100 - 250 rounds over the course of several hours.


In most tactical training classes you are putting 350 - 600 rounds down range for 2 to 5 days (round count and length depends on the type of class, the instructor, and the experience of the students as a group)


DPMS has a very bad reputation among the tactical training community and for good reason. Of all the classes I have hosted I have NEVER seen an Olympic Arms or DPMS carbine complete the course. I have seen several more DPMS carbines in courses than Olympic, but I have seen quite a few of both over the years.

Several years ago I hosted a class and one of the Assistant Instructors was running a DPMS. I was giving him a hard time about how unreliable the DPMS guns were. This same Assistant Instructor demoed all of the drills in the class, even during the demo's the gun was constantly having problems. I kept giving him a hard time, he finally got frustrated with the carbine that he ended up unloading it and throwing it into the berm and used a student's rifle to contiue the demos.


I have seen at least a couple dozen DPMS guns in classes over the years and none of them completed a class. As the host I always bring several loaner guns to class. So when a student comes to me for a loaner gun I always ask what kind of gun he was shooting.


Malfunctions or problems ranged from parts breakage to constant failure to feed, failure to extract, failure to eject, etc, etc, etc.


All AR15's ARE NOT built to the same standards. You may want to take a hard look at rob_s' M4 Comparison Chart and compare different brands before you buy.


Hope this helps.

jem375
12-31-2009, 09:47
Either a DPMS or a Stag, best bang for the buck... don't believe all the hype about some brands, any of the major manufacturers make decent AR's, just get the best price and buy it...

thisaway
12-31-2009, 09:59
Bravo Company Manufacturing offers their 16-inch "Gunfighter" for $1134, according to their website.

pleaforwar
12-31-2009, 10:43
All AR15's ARE NOT built to the same standards. You may want to take a hard look at rob_s' M4 Comparison Chart and compare different brands before you buy.


Hope this helps.

Jeff, how have Stags performed in the courses you have hosted?

Alaskapopo
12-31-2009, 10:47
Either a DPMS or a Stag, best bang for the buck... don't believe all the hype about some brands, any of the major manufacturers make decent AR's, just get the best price and buy it...

Wrong they are not all created equal. Oly and DPMS amoung others make vastly inferior rifles. You get what you pay for.
Pat

HogGlocker
12-31-2009, 11:08
I would recommend taking up a hobby you can afford.

Matchbox cars or beenie babies.

Seriously? That is your learned, experienced response?

I'd suggest you learn some damned manners...Does your Momma know you are using her computer?


OP: Stag, CMMG or S&W would all serve you well....hang tight if you want a ready to roll platform and save maybe a few more bucks and grab one of these.

Sure, you can buy components and put together a fine rifle from several sources for around your $700 mark...just a thought.

I have 2 M&P series and they are excellent rifles...you won't be making a mistake with Stag or CMMG either....

Don't rush it though...be patient and buy right.

Happy New Year.

ETA:

A friend did just buy an Armalite M4-ish with an excellent match trigger for $825...another thought.

USMC03
12-31-2009, 11:21
Jeff, how have Stags performed in the courses you have hosted?

Fair, but not great. I have only seen 5 or 6 in classes, and 3 had issues. I remember one of them had cycling / feeding issues.

Remember that in classes I'm the busiest guy in the class. I'm the host and have to take care of range personel, students, and instructors. I also have to take care of any issues that come up with the range, control access to the gate, collect range fees, etc. And I'm also a student. So I'm trying to listen to the instructor, keep my gear squared away, and focus on learning a skill set.

The reason that I mention this (being extremely busy during classes) is because when topics like this come up, people want to know exactly what was wrong with each gun. I don't have the time or effort to stop what I'm doing to go and see what is wrong with each gun. If I see that another guy on line was having issues with his gun, I catch him on a brake and ask what kind of issues he had and what kind of gun he was running.

I just try to keep a mental log of what guns had problems and wwho the manufacturer was.


Several years ago, I use to recommend Stag, Bushmaster, Rock River Arms, and others, because at the time they built a decent gun and had a good track record for reliablity in the classes. Keep in mind that I was recommending these brands during a time when Colt, LMT, BCM, Noveske, etc. were extremely hard to get or weren't even manufacturing firearms (ie. 2004 / 2005).


Stag, Rock River Arms, Bushmaster and several other companies built a quality gun for a good price when they first started out. And were a good choice considering what was avalible on the market at the time. As these companies became more popular their, the demand for their products grew. As a direct result their prices went up and quality went down. As quaility drops you start seeing an increase in reliablity issues. In 2004 / 2005 almost all of the RRA guns that I saw in class were very reliable. In the years after that, a majoirty of the guns by that same company had issues (to include broken bolts, reliablity issues, etc)



Now that many more people are attending tactical training classes, paying attention to After Action Reports writen on the internet, and information like Rob's M4 Comparison Charts, I'm not seeing as many Stag, Rock River Arms, Bushmaster, etc. as I did in years past. In the last couple years a high percentage of shooters are showing up with Colt, LMT, BCM, Noveske, etc.



Considering the information that is readily avalible from people that attend training on a regular basis and report their experiences on the net, and information like the M4 Comparison Chart, and considering the price point and avalibility of guns from manufacturers such as Colt, LMT, BCM, Noveske, etc, it boggles my mind why anyone would want to save a couple hundred dollars and chance getting a gun that is not going to be reliable.


Just some numbers of rounds down range in carbine training classes in 2009:

-Pat Rogers (EAG Tactical) 3 day Carbine Operator's Course: 26 students, average of 1,300 rounds down range = 33,800 rounds
-Dave Neth 3 day SWAT Carbine and Pistol Course: 22 students, average of 1,000 rounds down range = 22,000 rounds
-LMS Defense 2 day Carbine Course: 8 students, average of 1,000 rounds down range = 8,000 rounds (generally this class would be 3x as large, it was small because another instructor had to cancel his class and I only had a few months to get the word out on the LMS class)


Approximatley 63,800 of 5.56mm ..... On the average year it's probably closer to 80,000 rounds. Keep in mind that that doesn't include my personal training, matches and competiton, or info from pistol training classes, matches or competition.

I guess some here have a lot more experience than me, and the info I post is nothing more than "hype" :upeyes:

kgain673
12-31-2009, 11:48
Here is a question for USMC03. How do you think a Delton would hold up in a carbine class? What have you seen from your time on the range? Have you seen Deltons break down during carbine classes?

pleaforwar
12-31-2009, 12:44
Considering the information that is readily avalible from people that attend training on a regular basis and report their experiences on the net, and information like the M4 Comparison Chart, and considering the price point and avalibility of guns from manufacturers such as Colt, LMT, BCM, Noveske, etc, it boggles my mind why anyone would want to save a couple hundred dollars and chance getting a gun that is not going to be reliable.



I think you answered your own question Jeff. What you state applies to those that actually attend training on a regular basis.

My issue is that some of us (not saying you, speaking of the community in general) get so caught up in how we shoot and what our expectations are. We think that our situation should apply to the majority of other shooters out there (I have done this myself PLENTY of times).

My estimate (which has absolutely no factual basis) is that maybe 10% of AR shooters regularly attend training. My estimate of shooters that will shoot 10k+ rounds down the tube would be a similar number.

While I know there is no way to prove my estimates, I know that my comments must have some validity just by the amount of support certain brands of lesser quality still get.

So I guess my question is, if a shooter just want to BS and have a little recreational fun with a rifle, why shouldn't they get a Stag? The company has a pretty good track record, is affordable for those that don't plan to compete or train, and comes with a lifetime warranty.



I will admit this. I am a college student living off the GI Bill. I can sympathize with those that want to skimp some money on their rifles. A couple extra hundred dollars to me means a lot of missed Ramen meals. I can only give up so much Ramen for rifle upgrades. :rofl:

LLL
12-31-2009, 14:11
I think im going to take alaskinpopos advise, seems reasonable, better bolt, extracter spring and so on seems miner for upgrades. I also belive the outsides to be basically the same, my hope is since I bought it completely put together, I shouldnt have fitment problems, but well see. if all else fails, ill have to and up the next one. my gut says I should have bought a 556.
LLL

RonS
12-31-2009, 23:30
Doublestar at Buds for $649.

Ryan10700
01-01-2010, 00:06
Here's my .02 cents.

Del-Ton Kit $465
Sharps Lower $55
Matech BUIS $50

$570 + shipping and transfer fees. So just over $600 for an entry level AR with iron sights, and unless you're busting down doors or working in the sand everyday it will mostly likely hold up to your expectations. I'd rather save money for ammo and shoot than have a safe queen I can't afford to shoot. While you're at it, check out Palmetto State Armory, they've got .22LR conversions with 3 mags on sale for $169 and you can shoot the crap out of your new AR on the cheap!

Cobra6
01-01-2010, 00:58
I'd find a COLT 6920 for $1000-$1100 or put together my own lower and buy a complete BCM upper.


There's been stripped lowers on sale for $50-$75 lately and then I found this today:

http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/598.php
It's a complete MOE lower kit for $150.

That $150 lower kit and a $50-$100 stripped lower is all you need to get to complete a lower then just buy a complete BCM upper when you get the dough.

Seriously those two options are you best bets if you want to do things right from the get go.

That lower kit looks like a deal with all the parts included - I just picked up a Sabre Defence lower for a deal - looking for a lower PK deal and this may be it. Thanks for the link.

luv2brode
01-01-2010, 14:09
bbuilt a stag zero problems 750
built 5 deltons zero problems 625
prices above include sights and mags and lowers

jobob
01-01-2010, 15:14
a little more info please, I just bought a DPMS and got alot( or so I thought) why DPMS so bad. I hope I didnt make a mistake.
LLL

Your mistake was asking about DPMS - you brought out the haters!
Many 3-gun competitors, who shoot many times more rounds per year than most folks here, shoot DPMS rifles and love them. That includes Dave Neth. Oh yah, they don't usually shoot more than a couple hundred rounds a day, but they normally shoot LOTS more in practice. And, one thing I LOVE about DPMS is that they put their money where their mouth is. The support the sport in a VERY big way!

I've had very good luck with DPMS. They make accurate barrels, and are usually a reasonably reliable gun. I use to have one of their 16" M4 clones and never had one malfunction with it over a couple K rounds before I sold it. I loaned it to a friend who used it in a Louis Awerbuck class. He told me it ran perfectly for him.

That all said they aren't always perfect. I know one that broke a locking lug on a new gun (it was a parts built gun, but I think the bolt was DPMS). Their quality control seems a little hit and miss sometimes. The bolt to carrier fit on the 16" I use to own was sloppy, but it still worked 100%, and also shot 1" groups at 100 yards when I used the right ammo and I did my part. If you want to feel more confident in your gun it isn't all that expensive to slip a BCM bolt in it. If you really want to splurge you can get a JP High Performance bolt. Keep the DPMS parts for spares. Since nearly all failures revolve around those parts, and the receivers themselves are good forgings, you should be gtg and have a rifle you can depend on.

Most, not all, of my current guns are Bushmasters. They are all wonderful and I have no troubles with them. On two 'working' Bushies I installed the JP HP bolts, just for insurance. Never had trouble with Bushy bolts, but the JPs are a step up in quality and give some piece of mind.

Shoot what you've got and have fun with it! :)

Alaskapopo
01-01-2010, 15:25
Your mistake was asking about DPMS - you brought out the haters!
Many 3-gun competitors, who shoot many times more rounds per year than most folks here, shoot DPMS rifles and love them. That includes Dave Neth. Oh yah, they don't usually shoot more than a couple hundred rounds a day, but they normally shoot LOTS more in practice. And, one thing I LOVE about DPMS is that they put their money where their mouth is. The support the sport in a VERY big way!

I've had very good luck with DPMS. They make accurate barrels, and are usually a reasonably reliable gun. I use to have one of their 16" M4 clones and never had one malfunction with it over a couple K rounds before I sold it. I loaned it to a friend who used it in a Louis Awerbuck class. He told me it ran perfectly for him.

That all said they aren't always perfect. I know one that broke a locking lug on a new gun (it was a parts built gun, but I think the bolt was DPMS). Their quality control seems a little hit and miss sometimes. The bolt to carrier fit on the 16" I use to own was sloppy, but it still worked 100%, and also shot 1" groups at 100 yards when I used the right ammo and I did my part. If you want to feel more confident in your gun it isn't all that expensive to slip a BCM bolt in it. If you really want to splurge you can get a JP High Performance bolt. Keep the DPMS parts for spares. Since nearly all failures revolve around those parts, and the receivers themselves are good forgings, you should be gtg and have a rifle you can depend on.

Most, not all, of my current guns are Bushmasters. They are all wonderful and I have no troubles with them. On two 'working' Bushies I installed the JP HP bolts, just for insurance. Never had trouble with Bushy bolts, but the JPs are a step up in quality and give some piece of mind.

Shoot what you've got and have fun with it! :)

For starters tactical shooters like USMC03 shoot thousands of rounds more a year than three gun shooters and if you notice tactical shooters hate DPMS. Ask Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers about how many DPMS guns have made it through a week long carbine class. Pretty much none.

Three gun shooters on the other hand usually customize their guns so they will run the way the want. So you are not talking about stock DPMS guns anyway. Secondly three gun matches are not that hard on guns as opposed to say a carbine course. Having done both several times I can say training is way harder on guns due to much higher round counts than three gun matches. Basically using the rational that three gun shooters use DPMS so it must be good is flawed. When I talk to fellow three gun shooters who do use DPMS they say they bought them because DPMS puts money into the sport. Basically they are being paid off to shoot DPMS. I wish DPMS would take the money they put into the sport and make better rifles.
I want a gun that works and works well not one I have to fix up just to get it to run. Nor do I care about which companies provide money to the shooting sports when it comes time to buy a defensive firearm. I am a DPMS hater with about 20 good reasons.

I challenge any DPMS supporter to take a stock DPMS gun through a week long rifle class with any respected trainer and report back on the guns performance. I have seen DPMS guns choke in light round count 2 day classes. DPMS guns are not to be trusted. I know you have had good luck with yours. But as we have talked about before your DPMS is not stock. Again you are entitled to your opinion and I am mine. If a shooter wants a DPMS strictly as a range gun then fine. But if there is even an off chance it may do duty as a home defense gun or as Police patrol rifle forget about it.

Pat

Javelin
01-01-2010, 15:33
I think that Colt probably offers the best bang for the buck. It also gives you the nostalgia of owning a pony gun.

Looking back I would probably would have been happier just buying a Noveske first and saving me from buying the rest. But now I have a great assortment of firearms. That said the lowest on the totem pole I would recommend is probably Armalite/Stag as you can get a decent deal on one for ~$700 range and the newer ones offer a lot at that price point. But seriously consider saving the extra $400 and get the 6920 if a Noveske is 100% completely out of your price range.

HAIL CAESAR
01-01-2010, 15:34
DPMS is fine for most folks.

If you shoot a couple times a year and a couple magazines at each outing you are fine.

If you are a hunter and shoot two or three bullets and then pack it up and go home, you are fine.

You may get lucky and the gun runs well for moderate hard usages.

But they are not hard usage guns. If you plan to take rifle class then there are better guns for that than DPMS.

Sierra
01-01-2010, 15:40
Stag.

Alaskapopo
01-01-2010, 15:41
DPMS is fine for most folks.

If you shoot a couple times a year and a couple magazines at each outing you are fine.

If you are a hunter and shoot two or three bullets and then pack it up and go home, you are fine.

You may get lucky and the gun runs well for moderate hard usages.

But they are not hard usage guns. If you plan to take rifle class then there are better guns for that than DPMS.

Very well put.
Pat

HAIL CAESAR
01-01-2010, 15:53
Very well put.
Pat

Thanks. I know we've had this fight once or twice.....:wavey:

If you (the reader) are wanting a coyote or a ditch blaster then go buy a DPMS, RRA, CMMG, Oly Arms, etc, etc.. I have had a RRA coyote gun before.

If you are wanting a rifle for classes, then their are different companies and different specs to looks for.

If you are in the middle of the pack and want an AR ditch blaster, but one day may be used at a class or other hard usage applications, or you simply want the best.......
Then save your self some money and spend extra 200 dollars more now to get a better rifle.

jobob
01-01-2010, 15:57
"But as we have talked about before your DPMS is not stock."

Oh? That's news to me! The 16" DPMS I spoke of was/is bone cold stock. I did eventually put a free float tube on it, which seemed to really bring out the accuracy, but other than that and a decent trigger it was pure stock.

Don't make stuff up. We can argue the facts, but when one person is synthesizing his points it's very difficult to have a coherent conversation. Like Dennis Prager says: "I prefer clarity to agreement."

thisaway
01-01-2010, 16:51
In the last couple years a high percentage of shooters are showing up with Colt, LMT, BCM, Noveske, etc.


Do you have any experience with LWRC rifles?

Alaskapopo
01-01-2010, 17:20
"But as we have talked about before your DPMS is not stock."

Oh? That's news to me! The 16" DPMS I spoke of was/is bone cold stock. I did eventually put a free float tube on it, which seemed to really bring out the accuracy, but other than that and a decent trigger it was pure stock.

Don't make stuff up. We can argue the facts, but when one person is synthesizing his points it's very difficult to have a coherent conversation. Like Dennis Prager says: "I prefer clarity to agreement."

Slow down you were talking about adding a JP bolt and carrier to your current gun. I only assumed you did the same to your DPMS. My mistake. No one ismaking stuff up. Basically your position is that the DPMS rifle you owned ran fine and did well in light use three gun matches. My position is that the 20 plus DPMS guns I have been responsible did not run fine and could not be counted on until they were modified by staking, BCM upgrade kits and in a few cases trips back to the factory to fix chamber dimensions issues. I am glad you are happy with the one you owned. But there is a reason most people who use their guns for a living chose pretty much anythng but DPMS. I also could not help but notice you no longer own a DPMS. So deep down you must have realized it was not the best choice in an AR15.


Pat

MCKNBRD
01-01-2010, 21:16
Why is it that threads like this always turn personal?

Why can't folks say 'so on and so forth are great and reliable' or 'I've seen several of these fail'...instead of saying 'you said that my best friend's college roommate's uncle had a crack in his doomaflatchie so they suck and I've had one for 98 years and they never fail'?

I once saw a Colt that had a broken lug. Does that mean they suck, too? No, it just means that everything mechanical can (and will) fail.

Like I said above; buy what you can afford, and shoot the heck out of it. If/when something breaks, fix it. Pretty simple.

Byrdman

USMC03
01-02-2010, 06:59
Here is a question for USMC03. How do you think a Delton would hold up in a carbine class? What have you seen from your time on the range? Have you seen Deltons break down during carbine classes?


I have never seen a Delton carbine in a class, I have no information on them.


I think you answered your own question Jeff. What you state applies to those that actually attend training on a regular basis.

My issue is that some of us (not saying you, speaking of the community in general) get so caught up in how we shoot and what our expectations are. We think that our situation should apply to the majority of other shooters out there (I have done this myself PLENTY of times).

My estimate (which has absolutely no factual basis) is that maybe 10% of AR shooters regularly attend training. My estimate of shooters that will shoot 10k+ rounds down the tube would be a similar number.

While I know there is no way to prove my estimates, I know that my comments must have some validity just by the amount of support certain brands of lesser quality still get.

So I guess my question is, if a shooter just want to BS and have a little recreational fun with a rifle, why shouldn't they get a Stag? The company has a pretty good track record, is affordable for those that don't plan to compete or train, and comes with a lifetime warranty.



I will admit this. I am a college student living off the GI Bill. I can sympathize with those that want to skimp some money on their rifles. A couple extra hundred dollars to me means a lot of missed Ramen meals. I can only give up so much Ramen for rifle upgrades. :rofl:


Dan,

Tone is hard to convey on the internet. What follows is constructive in nature and not argumenative.

If you look at the number of members on GlockTalk, AR15.com, and several other gun boards and then look at the number of training classes, I would guesstimate that less than 1% actually attend formal training or put 10k rounds down range a year.

Just because a shooter doesn't attend trainining classes or shoot competition now, doesn't mean that he won't in the future. Most shooters start off as recreational shooters and as time goes on they get more serious or more intrested in shooting and the shooting sports.

Think about this for a second (I've been in this sitation more times than I like to admit): Let's say a new shooter goes out an buys a carbine from Company X for $700 because money is tight and he figures that "Well this is just as good as the $1,000 carbine from Company A". The new shooter starts having relialbity issues on his 2nd or 3rd range trip.

Put yourself in this guys shoes. When you start having problems with your $700 Company X AR15, are you going to say:

A) "I only spent $700 and I knew it wasn't top of the line, so if it doesn't run properly, no big deal"

or

B) "I wish I had saved for another couple months and bought the right gun the first time"


Almost all of us will fall into catagory B. I have been in this situation several times and after you spend several hundred dollars on a product, you expect it to perform, everytime. And when it doesn't the only thing you can think about is why you didn't buy the quality product in the first place.

Most guys will have lost confidence in their $700 Company X carbine and go out and buy the $1,000 Company A carbine because they want a gun that runs. So in the long run you ended up spending $1,700, when you could have just bought quality the first time.

"Buy cheap, buy twice"




I think im going to take alaskinpopos advise, seems reasonable, better bolt, extracter spring and so on seems miner for upgrades. I also belive the outsides to be basically the same, my hope is since I bought it completely put together, I shouldnt have fitment problems, but well see. if all else fails, ill have to and up the next one. my gut says I should have bought a 556.
LLL


LLL,

Good advise from Alaskapopo. Another problem I have seen with DPMS is their barrels are marked 5.56, but their chambers are not cut to 5.56 spec. If you are shooting 5.56 ammo (not .223) this can lead to popped primers and failure to extracts. Nothing dangerous, but makes things unreliable. If you know someone that has a 5.56 chamber reamer, you may want to have them ream the chamber.

When you said you sould have bought the 556, I don't know if you were refering to the Ruger SR556 or the Sig 556. I wouldn't recommend either. I've seen 5 Sig 556's in class. 3 were extrememly reliable, the other 2 had issues. However the ergonomics are lacking. 4 of the 5 students that were running Sig 556's in class asked me during or after class which AR15 I would recommend.


I know I posted this earlier, but this is an awesome reference:

rob_s' M4 comparison chart shows in black and white the difference in features between different manufacturers:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=1

and

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=0



Hope this helps




Your mistake was asking about DPMS - you brought out the haters!
Many 3-gun competitors, who shoot many times more rounds per year than most folks here, shoot DPMS rifles and love them. That includes Dave Neth. Oh yah, they don't usually shoot more than a couple hundred rounds a day, but they normally shoot LOTS more in practice. And, one thing I LOVE about DPMS is that they put their money where their mouth is. The support the sport in a VERY big way!

I've had very good luck with DPMS. They make accurate barrels, and are usually a reasonably reliable gun. I use to have one of their 16" M4 clones and never had one malfunction with it over a couple K rounds before I sold it. I loaned it to a friend who used it in a Louis Awerbuck class. He told me it ran perfectly for him.

That all said they aren't always perfect. I know one that broke a locking lug on a new gun (it was a parts built gun, but I think the bolt was DPMS). Their quality control seems a little hit and miss sometimes. The bolt to carrier fit on the 16" I use to own was sloppy, but it still worked 100%, and also shot 1" groups at 100 yards when I used the right ammo and I did my part. If you want to feel more confident in your gun it isn't all that expensive to slip a BCM bolt in it. If you really want to splurge you can get a JP High Performance bolt. Keep the DPMS parts for spares. Since nearly all failures revolve around those parts, and the receivers themselves are good forgings, you should be gtg and have a rifle you can depend on.

Most, not all, of my current guns are Bushmasters. They are all wonderful and I have no troubles with them. On two 'working' Bushies I installed the JP HP bolts, just for insurance. Never had trouble with Bushy bolts, but the JPs are a step up in quality and give some piece of mind.

Shoot what you've got and have fun with it! :)


jobob,

Not trying to be argumentative or trying to get into an internet pissing contest, just sharing information, based on my real world first hand experiences.


I don't know if you were refering to me or not when said: "Your mistake was asking about DPMS - you brought out the haters!"

I'm not a DPMS hater. I have no dog in the fight. I'm a consumer just like everyone else here and I want the best product at the best price.

What I posted earlier in this thread is my first hand real world experiences with DPMS. Both from what I have seen in training classes over the years and from my own personal experience as someone who purchased their products over the years.

I stand by what I said earlier, I have never seen a DPMS complete rifle or upper make it through a traing class without issues and I have seen several DPMS guns in classes over the years.

I have nothing to gain by reporting this. I spend a lot of my own time, money, and energy helping other shooters out. The information I post is based on my experiences.

I know that DPMS supports the 3 gun and competitive shooting community, just like JP does. DPMS is a very popular brand among 3 gun and competition shooters. However, DPMS has a well deserved poor reputation within the tactical community and it's due to the lack of relialbity.

Bushmaster:

I have owned at least a couple dozen Bushmaster's over the last 2 decades. Back in the mid-to late 90's they built a good gun. I use to recommend Bushmaster. However I noticed that demand for their product went up drastically just prior to Y2K and I noticed their quality went down. The quality came up a little a year or two later, but was never on par with the quality before Y2K.

When the assault weapons ban sun setted in 2004, again their was a huge demand for their product and the quality suffered and has never come back up to what it was.

For years the only 2 brands that were approved for our patrol rifle program was Bushmaster and Colt. As a result of that a majority of our Officers carry Bushmasters because they were avalibe locally.

I have seen A LOT of issues with Bushmasters in the training classes I attend and during Department qualifications.

During Dave Neth's SWAT carbine course back in May, Dave was watching one of our Officers during a drill. The Officer's Bushmaster had been running find until this timed drill. His gun start short stroking. When the drill was over I asked Dave if the Officer was shooting a Bushmaster, and the Officer confirmed that his AR15 was a Bushmaster.

As the Officer was going off the line, I told him to check his carrier key to see if it was loose. He came back and told me the carrier key was loose. I ended up switching out his bolt carrier for a Colt bolt carrier so he could finish the class.

Another Officer had the same issue.

How did I know the gun was a Bushmaster and how did I know the carrier key was loose? From experience, I have seen so many Bushmasters with improperly staked carrier keys during Department qualifications and training classes.

Two other Officers during this class had Bushmasters carbines and were having extraction or ejection problems. I upgraded both of their bolts with BCM extractor spring upgrade kits (black extractor spring insert, 5 coil spring, and black rubber "o" ring) and it solved the problems in both of those carbines.



The information I put on the internet is based on experience, and my motivation for posting the information is so other shooters can learn from my mistakes and experiences. A lot of time and effort goes into the information that I post. If someone can learn from mistakes I've already made, we are both better for it.


Take care and be safe




Do you have any experience with LWRC rifles?



I have a friend who has take several training classes with me and shoots competion with his 10.5" LWRC. He has had no issues with his gun. Pat Rogers had 3 LWRC guns in the May 2008 class. One of those guns had the entire rod assembly dislodge from the gun. We ended up finding the rod the next day. It seems like there was a minor issue with one of the other LWRC guns in that class, but I can't remember.

I'm only semi-familiar with their products. That being said I'm not a huge fan of piston guns. The DI system on the AR15 has been around for half a centry are extremely reliable.

Paul7
01-02-2010, 08:27
I think you answered your own question Jeff. What you state applies to those that actually attend training on a regular basis.

My issue is that some of us (not saying you, speaking of the community in general) get so caught up in how we shoot and what our expectations are. We think that our situation should apply to the majority of other shooters out there (I have done this myself PLENTY of times).

My estimate (which has absolutely no factual basis) is that maybe 10% of AR shooters regularly attend training. My estimate of shooters that will shoot 10k+ rounds down the tube would be a similar number.Exactly. Outside of the classes they choose to go to, the 'trainers' will never shoot that many either in a real life situation. If we ever get in a SHTF problem and have to fire over 10,000+ rounds, we've got MAJOR problems that a different AR won't solve. How many here even have 10K rounds?

For some reason, this comes to mind when we have these conversations:

"The name Walter Mitty and the derivative word "Mittyesque" [5] have entered the English language, denoting an ineffectual person who spends more time in heroic daydreams than paying attention to the real world, or more seriously, one who intentionally attempts to mislead or convince others that he is something that he is not. In military circles, this usually refers to people who try to fake an impressive career."

For home defense, I'll take my 1911.

While I know there is no way to prove my estimates, I know that my comments must have some validity just by the amount of support certain brands of lesser quality still get.

So I guess my question is, if a shooter just want to BS and have a little recreational fun with a rifle, why shouldn't they get a Stag? The company has a pretty good track record, is affordable for those that don't plan to compete or train, and comes with a lifetime warranty.



I will admit this. I am a college student living off the GI Bill. I can sympathize with those that want to skimp some money on their rifles. A couple extra hundred dollars to me means a lot of missed Ramen meals. I can only give up so much Ramen for rifle upgrades. :rofl:

jobob
01-02-2010, 12:55
Slow down you were talking about adding a JP bolt and carrier to your current gun. I only assumed you did the same to your DPMS. My mistake. No one ismaking stuff up. Basically your position is that the DPMS rifle you owned ran fine and did well in light use three gun matches. My position is that the 20 plus DPMS guns I have been responsible did not run fine and could not be counted on until they were modified by staking, BCM upgrade kits and in a few cases trips back to the factory to fix chamber dimensions issues. I am glad you are happy with the one you owned. But there is a reason most people who use their guns for a living chose pretty much anythng but DPMS. I also could not help but notice you no longer own a DPMS. So deep down you must have realized it was not the best choice in an AR15.Pat

I wouldn't have sold the DPMS except that I just wanted something a little different, wanted to try a mid-length carbine, and I needed to sell something to finance it. I had a CMMG lower that was lonely and needed an upper, so with my sale funds hot in hand I ordered a BCM stainless 16" middy. Seems like a nice rifle. I've got the BCM set up for competition with a Rolling Thunder comp. It looks like it will be accurate, but seems more ammo sensitive than the DPMS was. That gun would shoot everything I put through it, and was even reliable with Wolf, if not very accurate with it. The BCM doesn't seem to shoot AE very well, which is too bad since that is my favorite 3gun ammo. Looks like I need to get my reloading bench built.

Just remembered that I did do something to the DPMS - I installed a D-fender over the extractor spring. I put one of those, or an O ring, on every gun I own, just for insurance, so I'd forgotten that.

I fail to understand that, if installing a relatively inexpensive BCM bolt will bring the gun up to your high functional standards, why you would not recommend people do that rather than invest several hundred more into a "top tier" rifle? Like I said, I put the JP bolts in a couple of my using ARs (both Bushmasters), not because I distrust the Bushies, but because I bought the koolaid from JP that these bots are made of a modern steel that will last 10x the life of a milspec bolt. I've not done that to my match guns, but I'm thinking about it. Like I said, my stock DPMS worked great through a Louis Awerbuck class, but I guess the friend I loaned it to was wrong about that, since from what I hear here there is no way that a DPMS could survive such abuse.

And what is it about all these carbine classes? I could see taking a class to become a better shooter, but how many classes do people need? Can't they take a class and go home and practice? I took a Dave Neth 3gun class a couple years ago. Excellent class, and I'd like to take a rifle class from him, but I really have no desire to take every carbine class out there. I go to school or take a training course to learn something from people who know more than I about a particular subject (like 20+ years ago when I took a Rob Leatham pistol course). I don't buy guns just to survive 20 classes a year. After all, I HAVE a life! Training is good, but if a guy is taking class after class, and he's not in training to go to war, then I have to agree that it may be a Walter Mitty complex. If that's their recreation, more power to them. But if they can afford that much ammo, class fees, travel, etc, then you're darn tootin they should be buying the best guns out there. The rest of us can get by nicely with a "lower tier" gun (we have wives to deal with!).

BTW, Dave is not only one of the top 3gun competitors in the world, he's also a full time state trooper and firearms instructor. I don't know where he finds the time. But I do know that he shoots DPMS rifles. I may only have a pea size brain, but that says something to me.

Alaskapopo
01-02-2010, 13:30
I wouldn't have sold the DPMS except that I just wanted something a little different, wanted to try a mid-length carbine, and I needed to sell something to finance it. I had a CMMG lower that was lonely and needed an upper, so with my sale funds hot in hand I ordered a BCM stainless 16" middy. Seems like a nice rifle. I've got the BCM set up for competition with a Rolling Thunder comp. It looks like it will be accurate, but seems more ammo sensitive than the DPMS was. That gun would shoot everything I put through it, and was even reliable with Wolf, if not very accurate with it. The BCM doesn't seem to shoot AE very well, which is too bad since that is my favorite 3gun ammo. Looks like I need to get my reloading bench built.

Just remembered that I did do something to the DPMS - I installed a D-fender over the extractor spring. I put one of those, or an O ring, on every gun I own, just for insurance, so I'd forgotten that.

I fail to understand that, if installing a relatively inexpensive BCM bolt will bring the gun up to your high functional standards, why you would not recommend people do that rather than invest several hundred more into a "top tier" rifle? Like I said, I put the JP bolts in a couple of my using ARs (both Bushmasters), not because I distrust the Bushies, but because I bought the koolaid from JP that these bots are made of a modern steel that will last 10x the life of a milspec bolt. I've not done that to my match guns, but I'm thinking about it. Like I said, my stock DPMS worked great through a Louis Awerbuck class, but I guess the friend I loaned it to was wrong about that, since from what I hear here there is no way that a DPMS could survive such abuse.

And what is it about all these carbine classes? I could see taking a class to become a better shooter, but how many classes do people need? Can't they take a class and go home and practice? I took a Dave Neth 3gun class a couple years ago. Excellent class, and I'd like to take a rifle class from him, but I really have no desire to take every carbine class out there. I go to school or take a training course to learn something from people who know more than I about a particular subject (like 20+ years ago when I took a Rob Leatham pistol course). I don't buy guns just to survive 20 classes a year. After all, I HAVE a life! Training is good, but if a guy is taking class after class, and he's not in training to go to war, then I have to agree that it may be a Walter Mitty complex. If that's their recreation, more power to them. But if they can afford that much ammo, class fees, travel, etc, then you're darn tootin they should be buying the best guns out there. The rest of us can get by nicely with a "lower tier" gun (we have wives to deal with!).

BTW, Dave is not only one of the top 3gun competitors in the world, he's also a full time state trooper and firearms instructor. I don't know where he finds the time. But I do know that he shoots DPMS rifles. I may only have a pea size brain, but that says something to me.

The fact a three gun shooter shoots a DPMS says one thing to me too. He was sponsored by them. (Money) I also would be welling to bet my paycheck his rifle is not stock either.

Also competition classes dealing with teaching people how to shoot three gun are very easy on guns compared to tactical classes that have students fire far more rounds in far more varing conditions. (urban prone, mudd snow muck etc) Again three gun is a game that is relatively easy on equipment.
I have yet to see a DPMS gun make it all the way through any rifle class without problem.
Pat

HAIL CAESAR
01-02-2010, 14:56
And what is it about all these carbine classes? I could see taking a class to become a better shooter, but how many classes do people need? As many as they want, and for some as many as they can get too.
Can't they take a class and go home and practice? Yes,they can and most do. A LOT.
I took a Dave Neth 3gun class a couple years ago.
What does he teach??? gaming??
Excellent class, and I'd like to take a rifle class from him, but I really have no desire to take every carbine class out there. I go to school or take a training course to learn something from people who know more than I about a particular subject (like 20+ years ago when I took a Rob Leatham pistol course). I don't buy guns just to survive 20 classes a year. After all, I HAVE a life! Good for you! Some folks train so they can retire and enjoy a life.

Training is good, but if a guy is taking class after class, and he's not in training to go to war, then I have to agree that it may be a Walter Mitty complex. If that's their recreation, more power to them.
In all the years I have gone I have seen many Active Duty Military (Infantry from all Branches), LEO SWAT, regular LEO, Fed Agents from various Agencies, doctors, lawyers, and farmers just having fun doing it as a vacation every year.
But if they can afford that much ammo, class fees, travel, etc, then you're darn tootin they should be buying the best guns out there. The rest of us can get by nicely with a "lower tier" gun (we have wives to deal with!).
Yes, they buy good gear. Number one reason??? They can afford not too!!! Their lives are on the line in some cases, and some cases they train so much only good gear survives. So buying junk will cost at the very least a bunch of wasted money....the price and penalties go straight up from there..all the way to blood.
BTW....My wife bought me my rifle!!:tongueout:



Whoaaaa, there Tiger!!! Before you go off about things you have no idea about....read the above in red.









And to whomever said something above about 10,000 rounds.......

I have 20,000 in the basement ( reloaded). I was planning on burning though it this year. Plus 8 to 10k .22 LR for a conversion kit. If my back issues don't stop me I think I can get all that shot. I wish ammo prices would go down as I have had to cut back in recent years.

faawrenchbndr
01-02-2010, 15:13
Alaskapopo,
You NEED to understand,....... not everyone needs or can afford the
top-of-the-line AR15.
Just like how everyone does not need a Mercedes, some people's budgets/needs
dictate that they drive a Ford Focus.

There is no need to constantly tell everyone DPMS is crap.
Unless it is your mission in life, to go down as "that guy from Alaska that was always
putting down peoples' rifles" drop the Crusade.

You are a very knowledgeable individual with the AR platform, PLEEEEESE
use your talent a bit more constructively. You can teach new shooters a LOT!

jobob
01-02-2010, 15:20
You're right, DPMS is one of his sponsors. He could get any company he wanted, and he's no sellout as you seem to charge. For instance, Dave shoots and recommends Glock, but they do not sponsor him. He says that he considers it the best pistol for 3 gun and he wants to use the best, whether they are a sponsor or not. His Glocks are a lot more stock than mine, too. (Oops, I may have spoke too soon. On the DPMS website I see that Caspian Arms is listed as a sponsor. Oh well, they're good guns too.) I don't remember what mods he had on his rifle. I'm sure it probably had a match barrel, but other than that I think the mods were ergonomic accessories. I do remember an ambi charging handle. Here: http://www.dpmsinc.com/team/dave_neth.aspx

Me, I'd shoot for Kel-Tec if they paid me enough!

Yep, that urban prone is a killer on guns! Ha!

BTW, by all this discussion you'd think DPMS is my favorite rifle. Not true. They do have they're problems, but they're just not nearly as bad as you say they are. Hell, I know officers who love their Olys, but personally I wouldn't buy one. My favorite of all is my POF. It's been dead reliable as my main 3gun rifle the last 3 years. (Oh wait, that couldn't have happened, since it's on a DPMS lower with a DPMS lpk!) Well, I have had 4 malfunctions: 2 were magazine-caused (ftf on next to last round twice - pitched mag), 1 was probably mag related (this year's Ironman had a ftf near the bottom of the stack on a 45 round mag - possibly weak mag spring), and one stuck case with Wolf. That rifle puts AE in 1" at 100 yds. all day without a hiccup. I shot it in matches this year without cleaning from April to November. I'm not necessarily an advocate of piston guns, but that is a great rifle, and I don't like cleaning guns! Then there are my Bushmasters, 2 of which are 'working' guns I'd trust my life to, but hope I never have to.

Yeah, if I could afford it I'd have a safe full of Noveskes, but I can't. I'd rather have several rifles, for different purposes, that I can afford. Upgrade some of the parts if you need to, sure, but you don't have to sell your first born to have a great rifle. And you can have a great rifle just as easily with a DPMS as with anything else. If you want to pay semi-custom prices for a top notch gun that will probably need no "tweeking" from the get-go, then knock yourself out. But I can do the same thing, cheaper, by getting a rack-grade gun, then doing the work on it to get it to suit me.

jobob
01-02-2010, 15:25
Alaskapopo,
You NEED to understand,....... not everyone needs or can afford the
top-of-the-line AR15.
Just like how everyone does not need a Mercedes, some people's budgets/needs
dictate that they drive a Ford Focus.

There is no need to constantly tell everyone DPMS is crap.
Unless it is your mission in life, to go down as "that guy from Alaska that was always
putting down peoples' rifles" drop the Crusade.

You are a very knowledgeable individual with the AR platform, PLEEEEESE
use your talent a bit more constructively. You can teach new shooters a LOT!

+1 to that! :cool:

And Hail Ceasar, can we exchange wives? (Just kidding, I'm not into that sort of thing!) :supergrin:

Alaskapopo
01-02-2010, 15:31
Alaskapopo,
You NEED to understand,....... not everyone needs or can afford the
top-of-the-line AR15.
Just like how everyone does not need a Mercedes, some people's budgets/needs
dictate that they drive a Ford Focus.

There is no need to constantly tell everyone DPMS is crap.
Unless it is your mission in life, to go down as "that guy from Alaska that was always
putting down peoples' rifles" drop the Crusade.

You are a very knowledgeable individual with the AR platform, PLEEEEESE
use your talent a bit more constructively. You can teach new shooters a LOT!

With respect. The subject was brought up in this thread and I have tried to be more tactful as was suggested in the past. I also know that not everyone can afford top tier guns. But most people can afford middle of the road guns like Stag, Bushmaster or RRA. I see no reason to drop down to the bottom of the bucket and get DPMS and Oly.

I feel as strong as I do about DPMS because this brand is often pushed off on cops in smaller departments that have short sighted bean counters for administrators. These guns are likely to get an officer killed if they had to rely on them as they come from the factory. In LEO work there is no room for un reliable guns.
Pat

jobob
01-02-2010, 15:38
"I took a Dave Neth 3gun class a couple years ago.
What does he teach??? gaming??"

Now that was uncalled for! Kinda shows a lack of knowledge, too, combined with a bit of arrogance!

Alaskapopo
01-02-2010, 15:42
"I took a Dave Neth 3gun class a couple years ago.
What does he teach??? gaming??"

Now that was uncalled for! Kinda shows a lack of knowledge, too, combined with a bit of arrogance!

With all due respect that is what he teaches as all three gun shooting instructors teach. How to play the game. They don't teach good tactics or anything realistic at all unless it helps to win the game. That is why people interested in shooting for keeps should go to tactical based schools like Pat Rogers or Larry Vickers Carbine courses and people interested in playing games should go to three gun instructors. There is nothing wrong with shooting three gun and playing other games. But realize what they are. Games.
Pat

faawrenchbndr
01-02-2010, 15:46
Alaskapopo,.....you just won't take a hint will ya?!
Whatever works for ya dude,......you just lost all credibility with me.
You have a ton of knowledge, but absolutely NO people skills, simply amazing. :wavey:

Alaskapopo
01-02-2010, 16:03
Alaskapopo,.....you just won't take a hint will ya?!
Whatever works for ya dude,......you just lost all credibility with me.
You have a ton of knowledge, but absolutely NO people skills, simply amazing. :wavey:

I lost credibility because you feel I have no people skills. Why would I lose credibility if I have the knowledge. Anyway this forum is for people to share their experience and opinions about various Ar's. Why should I remain silent about DPMS or any other gun simply because it may offend owners of said gun?

The funny thing is I usually get good marks on my annual evaluation for how I interact with the public and other employees. Outside of praising DPMS or remaining silent I don't know what would make you happy in this regard. For what its worth I still respect you and I bear no hard feelings over your last post.
Pat

USMC03
01-02-2010, 16:13
Alaskapopo,

Dave Neth is a Idaho State Police and Nationally ranked 3 gun shooter. He instructed a SWAT Carbine course for our team in May. See my last post.

Solid dude, good instructor.


jobob and Paul7,


No need to attack the messenger, just because you don't like the factual, first hand information that was reported.



No Walter Mitty here. Hail Ceaser hit the nail on the head with his post. Some of us go that extra step to ensure we go home at night.

I'm a Detective / SWAT Officer / Firearms Instructor. I want to ensure that I go home at night and everyone who wears the same uniform as me goes home at the end of shift.

I've never heard anyone say after they've been involved in a shooting "Man I had too much training" or "If I would have trained less, I would have done better in that gun fight"

I don't know if the "fake an impressive career" was directed at me or not, but I have never padded my resume or experiences.


I shoot training classes, 3 gun, run and gun rifle competion, pistol matches, etc. for reasons related to my occupation, recreation, and to learn and instill a skill set.

I don't know how the whole 10,000 round SHTF situation got brought up, but none of us are going to shoot more than a mag or three in a gunfight. Most of the guns that had problems in classes were fairly new guns and the student was taking his first class. Generally the first 1,000 rounds is when most problems with AR's will arise.


Over the years I can think of two Officers who had malfunctions during a gunfight. One was one of my former Field Training Officers, the other was a Detective from my unit. And this is one of the many reasons why we train and share knowledge with others.






Spend your money on the product that you feel will suit your needs the best.

faawrenchbndr
01-02-2010, 16:21
I understand And I thank you, Pat.

You could just teach others SO much more if you would drop the negativity.
I understand your opinions and your reasoning has been justified. But not ALL
of the DPMS rifles are poor. You do have more experience with them than I, I'll
give you that. I do not disagree with your rationale about your fellow Officers
getting sub-par to poor quality. I believe LEO should get the best equipment money can buy.

Anyrate,.......you are a bundle of knowledge, you can teach and share a ton of that info
and help many, many new shooters. I just wish you could soften the edges about quality of weapons.

It's just like cars, not everyone needs or wants a Ferarri, even if they can afford one.

So basically, I apologize for the above post, it was a bit harsh.
I hope you can take a small amount of what I have tried to say, You are talented and
do very well as long as the DPMS subject does not arise. :supergrin:

HAIL CAESAR
01-02-2010, 16:51
"I took a Dave Neth 3gun class a couple years ago.
What does he teach??? gaming??"

Now that was uncalled for! Kinda shows a lack of knowledge, too, combined with a bit of arrogance!

What I meant by that was "What did you learn from him..gaming?" (what kind of class was it). 3 gun is a game. That is all it is.

I should have wrote "What did he teach??? Gaming??" I guess two different meanings depending if you use (does) or (did). That was my mistake.:wavey:


And now a days folks the difference between a cheap POS rifle and a good rifle is $200.00
That is it. If I could afford 2 bills more I would sell blood till I had the extra $200.

Paul7
01-02-2010, 17:42
Alaskapopo,

Dave Neth is a Idaho State Police and Nationally ranked 3 gun shooter. He instructed a SWAT Carbine course for our team in May. See my last post.

Solid dude, good instructor.


jobob and Paul7,


No need to attack the messenger, just because you don't like the factual, first hand information that was reported.



No Walter Mitty here. Hail Ceaser hit the nail on the head with his post. Some of us go that extra step to ensure we go home at night.

I'm a Detective / SWAT Officer / Firearms Instructor. I want to ensure that I go home at night and everyone who wears the same uniform as me goes home at the end of shift.

I've never heard anyone say after they've been involved in a shooting "Man I had too much training" or "If I would have trained less, I would have done better in that gun fight"

I don't know if the "fake an impressive career" was directed at me or not, but I have never padded my resume or experiences.


I shoot training classes, 3 gun, run and gun rifle competion, pistol matches, etc. for reasons related to my occupation, recreation, and to learn and instill a skill set.

I don't know how the whole 10,000 round SHTF situation got brought up, but none of us are going to shoot more than a mag or three in a gunfight. Most of the guns that had problems in classes were fairly new guns and the student was taking his first class. Generally the first 1,000 rounds is when most problems with AR's will arise.


Over the years I can think of two Officers who had malfunctions during a gunfight. One was one of my former Field Training Officers, the other was a Detective from my unit. And this is one of the many reasons why we train and share knowledge with others.






Spend your money on the product that you feel will suit your needs the best.Being a detective and SWAT officer, I can see why you want the best AR and training you can. There are something like 2,000,000 ARs owned in the US, and very few of the owners are in your situation. What some of us are saying is that we have different needs than you do. If I'm plinking or shooting at a coyote or prairie dog and the AR misfires, so what? I make well north of six figures and for my AR needs, I'm not sure it's worth the extra money for a 'good' one. FWIW, I don't plan on using an AR for home defense.

I guess I treat firearms like any other area in my life in that I don't like overspending. My handguns include Ruger (2), a Sig P6 I got for $250, a RIA 1911 and a CZ. They were all under $500, and they all work just fine. I don't think I'm cheap, I gave well over 5 figures to charity last year. Some on GT think you're crazy if you don't buy high-priced Sigs, HKs, Kimber, Wilson, etc. To each his own.

As someone said here before, I do think LEO should get the best equipment they can afford.

Gallium
01-02-2010, 18:07
On the topic of training, I've taken a rifle or pistol class every year for the past couple of years - simply because training at my range on my own time and working with a nazi of a trainer are on two completely different levels.

....don't know nuttin about ARs apart from that, except I got a few, and I need to learn some more about em.

'Drew

Alaskapopo
01-02-2010, 18:18
I understand And I thank you, Pat.

You could just teach others SO much more if you would drop the negativity.
I understand your opinions and your reasoning has been justified. But not ALL
of the DPMS rifles are poor. You do have more experience with them than I, I'll
give you that. I do not disagree with your rationale about your fellow Officers
getting sub-par to poor quality. I believe LEO should get the best equipment money can buy.

Anyrate,.......you are a bundle of knowledge, you can teach and share a ton of that info
and help many, many new shooters. I just wish you could soften the edges about quality of weapons.

It's just like cars, not everyone needs or wants a Ferarri, even if they can afford one.

So basically, I apologize for the above post, it was a bit harsh.
I hope you can take a small amount of what I have tried to say, You are talented and
do very well as long as the DPMS subject does not arise. :supergrin:

I am just a small town cop who likes Ar's a lot and has been lucky enough to have gone to a fair amount of training (for a small town cop) back in the days when I was working in the state drug task force and training money was easy to come by then. I also fell in love with three gun and shoot as many matchs as I can.

Guys like USMC03 are the real deal and when they speak I listen. Not to kiss but but anyone with that much trigger time deserves respect when he imparts knowledge.

faawrenchbndr
01-02-2010, 18:40
I can agree with you about USMC03 and a few others.
Kinda like the old EF Hutton commercial,..............

HAIL CAESAR
01-02-2010, 19:29
. If I'm plinking or shooting at a coyote or prairie dog and the AR misfires, so what? I make well north of six figures and for my AR needs, I'm not sure it's worth the extra money for a 'good' one. FWIW, I don't plan on using an AR for home defense.



I always ask "What ya going to use her for?"

If you posted your needs as stated above, I would tell you to get a RRA or DPMS.:wavey:

Not everybody has the same needs.

moncoacp
01-02-2010, 19:39
I picked up a very nice, used Bushmaster for 750. So far, flawless (500+)

faawrenchbndr
01-02-2010, 19:44
I always ask "What ya going to use her for?"

If you posted your needs as stated above, I would tell you to get a RRA or DPMS.:wavey:

Not everybody has the same needs.

Holy crap,.....someone actually sees it the way I do! :dancing:

NeverMore1701
01-02-2010, 20:55
The way I see it, each price point has it's options. For super cheap, Del-Ton. Next step up, Stag. Up again, BCM/Colt. At the very top, Noveske.

So I can't really think of a reason to recomend Model 1 Sales, DPMS, RRA, Bushmaster, etc, regardless of the price point.

NOT that the above are all crap, or cannot run/be made to run well, there just seems to be better options throughout the pricing strata.

whenmonkeysfly
01-02-2010, 21:18
IMO Frank White at Compass Lake Engineering helped me put together a nice AR15:

http://www.compasslake.com/

whenmonkeysfly
01-02-2010, 21:26
Good Book to read before purchasing an AR15: "Black Magic"

http://www.compasslake.com/Black%20Magic.htm

HAIL CAESAR
01-03-2010, 01:13
Holy crap,.....someone actually sees it the way I do! :dancing:

Sure. Why would anyone recommend a Colt 6920 for a guy just wanting to pop coyotes and the occasional ground squirrel????

Or if a guy walks in and says " You got one of them AR rifles? My buddy has one and we like to shoot cans and punch paper every couple of weekends." Do you think anyone would say back "Well, let me show you this 2 grand Noveske/LaRue. It is what you need to do that."

Seriously everybody. Calm down. Know you needs and get it.

The only thing I suggest is if you are LE then get the best you can afford. Instead of getting that $880 OTD DPMS, get a BCM upper and put the darn thing together at home yourself for right at a grand. No sales tax, FET, or distibuter/dealer profit.

If you are the type that thinks a Magpul class is perfect for your vacation....don't buy a darn Oly Arms.

And another thing folks. We are talking percentages here. When I was selling guns Oly had the absolute worst record with bad guns. I refused to sell them any more. But I know a guy with a RDIAS that has it in a OLY and it runs like a champ. Whats that mean....he has one Oly that runs good. What if he bought 100 Oly's? A thousand? His chances of getting a crappy gun is greater with OLY than say (grasp) a Colt 6920.

I know that in this thread and in another DPMS is getting beat on pretty hard. There are two sides of this, both I see. One guy has one that is a champ, other guy has one that is a dog. Well folks that is the way things are. DPMS is a fine gun for varminting (hunting in general) and just going to have fun with. Some even will take hard usage. But in general they won't take the usage like a 6920 will. As in if you had a Dept with 100 DPMS's and the town over got 100 Colts I would bet a steak dinner than the Dept with the DPMS's had the most problems. Just how it is.

jobob
01-03-2010, 02:24
I would agree with that assessment, Mr. Caesar. I don't think Olies are as bad as they use to be, but I have no knowledge one way or the other. I just haven't heard much good OR bad about them lately. Many of their earlier problems revolved around their cast lowers. Do they still make them?

I don't put DPMS in the same class as Oly. They seem to make better stuff, but they make a LOT of stuff, so there will naturally be more problems crop up. You are most likely right in your comparison between DPMS and Colt, but if the DPMS department has a good armorer the two can be brought into rough parity. And the DPMS dept. would have money left for more ammo.

OR, how about we fire up this thread! Let's say that a third department bought 100 Bushmasters. They'd save their ammo money, and save even more because they could fire their now unneeded armorer! Ha, take that!:duel:

USMC03
01-03-2010, 07:06
I would agree with that assessment, Mr. Caesar. I don't think Olies are as bad as they use to be, but I have no knowledge one way or the other. I just haven't heard much good OR bad about them lately. Many of their earlier problems revolved around their cast lowers. Do they still make them?

I don't put DPMS in the same class as Oly. They seem to make better stuff, but they make a LOT of stuff, so there will naturally be more problems crop up. You are most likely right in your comparison between DPMS and Colt, but if the DPMS department has a good armorer the two can be brought into rough parity. And the DPMS dept. would have money left for more ammo.

OR, how about we fire up this thread! Let's say that a third department bought 100 Bushmasters. They'd save their ammo money, and save even more because they could fire their now unneeded armorer! Ha, take that!:duel:


jobob,


Most Department's don't have armorers. Most of the time a Department armorer is a Firearms Instructor who has been sent to or put himself through one or several armorers courses.

I work for an agency that has over 200 sworn Officers and every Officer has to purchase their own Patrol Carbine, opitics, sling, magazines, carry case. Before carrying a Patrol Carbine, the Officer must attend and pass our Patrol Rifle Course. The Officer has to provide 400 rounds of his own ammo for the course plus duty ammo for the course and they also have to provide additional duty ammo (paid for by the Officer) to carry on duty.

The individual Officer also has to provide his own ammo for qualifications.


From page 3.


Bushmaster:

I have owned at least a couple dozen Bushmaster's over the last 2 decades. Back in the mid-to late 90's they built a good gun. I use to recommend Bushmaster. However I noticed that demand for their product went up drastically just prior to Y2K and I noticed their quality went down. The quality came up a little a year or two later, but was never on par with the quality before Y2K.

When the assault weapons ban sun setted in 2004, again their was a huge demand for their product and the quality suffered and has never come back up to what it was.

For years the only 2 brands that were approved for our patrol rifle program was Bushmaster and Colt. As a result of that a majority of our Officers carry Bushmasters because they were avalibe locally.

I have seen A LOT of issues with Bushmasters in the training classes I attend and during Department qualifications.

During Dave Neth's SWAT carbine course back in May, Dave was watching one of our Officers during a drill. The Officer's Bushmaster had been running find until this timed drill. His gun start short stroking. When the drill was over I asked Dave if the Officer was shooting a Bushmaster, and the Officer confirmed that his AR15 was a Bushmaster.

As the Officer was going off the line, I told him to check his carrier key to see if it was loose. He came back and told me the carrier key was loose. I ended up switching out his bolt carrier for a Colt bolt carrier so he could finish the class.

Another Officer had the same issue.

How did I know the gun was a Bushmaster and how did I know the carrier key was loose? From experience, I have seen so many Bushmasters with improperly staked carrier keys during Department qualifications and training classes.

Two other Officers during this class had Bushmasters carbines and were having extraction or ejection problems. I upgraded both of their bolts with BCM extractor spring upgrade kits (black extractor spring insert, 5 coil spring, and black rubber "o" ring) and it solved the problems in both of those carbines.



The information I put on the internet is based on experience, and my motivation for posting the information is so other shooters can learn from my mistakes and experiences. A lot of time and effort goes into the information that I post. If someone can learn from mistakes I've already made, we are both better for it.


Take care and be safe



The problems with Bushmaster have become so bad that I purchased out of my own pocket a MOACKS II - AR 15 Carrier Key Staker Tool: http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php to fix other Officer's Bushmaster Carbines.

********************************************************

I don't hate Bushmaster, DPMS, or other brands. Just reporting my first hand experiences with different carbines.

Many times with AR15 products (complete guns or accessories) there isn't much of a price difference between top of the line products and lower tier products.


Do research before you buy, and buy the product that is best suited for your needs.
*****************************************************

Thanks for the kind words faawrenchbndr and Alaskapopo :cool:

faawrenchbndr
01-03-2010, 07:18
Tons of good info in this thread, if you search for it. :supergrin:

pleaforwar
01-03-2010, 09:59
Dan,

Tone is hard to convey on the internet. What follows is constructive in nature and not argumenative.

If you look at the number of members on GlockTalk, AR15.com, and several other gun boards and then look at the number of training classes, I would guesstimate that less than 1% actually attend formal training or put 10k rounds down range a year.

Just because a shooter doesn't attend trainining classes or shoot competition now, doesn't mean that he won't in the future. Most shooters start off as recreational shooters and as time goes on they get more serious or more intrested in shooting and the shooting sports.

Think about this for a second (I've been in this sitation more times than I like to admit): Let's say a new shooter goes out an buys a carbine from Company X for $700 because money is tight and he figures that "Well this is just as good as the $1,000 carbine from Company A". The new shooter starts having relialbity issues on his 2nd or 3rd range trip.

Put yourself in this guys shoes. When you start having problems with your $700 Company X AR15, are you going to say:

A) "I only spent $700 and I knew it wasn't top of the line, so if it doesn't run properly, no big deal"

or

B) "I wish I had saved for another couple months and bought the right gun the first time"


Almost all of us will fall into catagory B. I have been in this situation several times and after you spend several hundred dollars on a product, you expect it to perform, everytime. And when it doesn't the only thing you can think about is why you didn't buy the quality product in the first place.

Most guys will have lost confidence in their $700 Company X carbine and go out and buy the $1,000 Company A carbine because they want a gun that runs. So in the long run you ended up spending $1,700, when you could have just bought quality the first time.

"Buy cheap, buy twice"


Finally I get a chance to respond after three days of helping my friend move. :faint:

Jeff,
First, you don't have to worry about my perception of tone, I respect you as an individual and as a source of knowledge. I hope that you understand that my posts are not said in a facetious or sarcastic fashion either.

Second, while your argument sounds really good in discussion, you have a couple of fallacies.
1) Slippery slope - you give the perception that if somebody chooses to purchase a lower priced AR, then they will go down the long road of multiple failures. This is all relative to round count, treatment of the rifle, ammo usage, etc. Proper maintenance and functioning of a rifle extends beyond the roll mark on the side of the receiver.
2) False dilemma - You give only two options in your example. A) Buy a good rifle or B) Buy a cheap rifle, find out it sucks, and then buy an expensive rifle.
This is an unfair example because AR ownership is so much more in-depth than your provided scenario. If someone owns a Bushy, Stag, or DPMS, and they later decide they want to become a more serious shooter, then there are plenty of options out there to make their rifle reliable enough or more functional for courses without buying an entirely new rifle. Examples would be a better BCG, trigger, etc.

Also, when you say,
If you look at the number of members on GlockTalk, AR15.com, and several other gun boards and then look at the number of training classes, I would guesstimate that less than 1% actually attend formal training or put 10k rounds down range a year.

Just because a shooter doesn't attend trainining classes or shoot competition now, doesn't mean that he won't in the future. Most shooters start off as recreational shooters and as time goes on they get more serious or more intrested in shooting and the shooting sports.

You must understand that those people that later change their mind to become more serious shooters still compose you proposed 1%. Now that just confuses me. If you believe that out of all the AR shooters that only 1% of them use their rifle to the level of your usage, then why are you recommending everyone get the same rifles? :dunno:

Thanks for the discussion,
Dan

jobob
01-03-2010, 14:41
USMC03: I feel your pain. I think officers should be ALLOWED to carry their own guns, but to be forced to, and have to purchase their own ammo, is just not right, imho.

Experiences vary I guess, but from what I've seen Bushmaster has improved their quality in the last couple years. I carried a department issued Colt patrol carbine for years, was a firearm instructor for my agency, and I've seen little or no difference in accuracy or reliability between the two brands. I own 4 Bushies and they are just great!

Personally, I would prefer nearly anything but Colt. That's not to say there is anything wrong with their guns (although they DO go down too, like any make), but I just don't like the company. It's run by unions, they do not support civilian black gun ownership (at least that's what I've read in a number of places), their corporate policies have resulted in near bancruptcy numerous times in the past, their corporate policy has also been to screw the employees (thus the unions), and their guns are overpriced for what you get due to the above. Their 1911s sucked for many years. I heard they are improved now (forced to by their competiton), but there are so many good 1911 makers there is no reason to choose Colt. Same with ARs. They cater to Government, military, and police sales, and really don't seem to give a rat's behind for civilians. Between the Single Action Army, 1911, and AR 15 Colt could (should) have had the civilian firearm market pretty well sewn up, but they blew it big time!

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

45reloader
01-03-2010, 15:13
Tons of good info in this thread, if you search for it. :supergrin:
I'm stealing that :whistling:

Vigilant
01-03-2010, 16:53
I share the sentiments about Colt as a company, but looking at those two spreadsheets, I'm not quite as sold on the M&P 15 as I was. I'm thinking 6920. Last time I looked, CDNN had them for $1,099. That's looking pretty good. I don't plan on a lot of heavy usage at this point, but it would be nice to know the gun could handle it. I also suspect that a Colt might hold its value a little better than some others.

My thanks to the author of those spread sheets.

faawrenchbndr
01-03-2010, 17:03
I'm stealing that :whistling:

Crap,......:faint:, I reserve the right to borrow what you stole from me! :rofl:

Daekwan
01-05-2010, 21:45
6920 for $1100 gets my vote. The question is whats the best bang for the buck AR.

USMC03
01-06-2010, 18:29
1) Slippery slope - you give the perception that if somebody chooses to purchase a lower priced AR, then they will go down the long road of multiple failures. This is all relative to round count, treatment of the rifle, ammo usage, etc. Proper maintenance and functioning of a rifle extends beyond the roll mark on the side of the receiver.


It's not "perception", what I have posted in this thread is INFORMATION based on my REAL WORLD FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES over the course of a couple decades of shooting as part of my profession, in several training classes, training at work, matches, and owning / shooting dozens of different AR15's by various manufacturers, etc.

Malfunctions can be related to round count, treatment, ammo, rate of fire, etc.

However, with several brands "lower tier" brands I have seen problems with numerous guns that were fairly new.

Read the information that I wrote in the posts in this thread about Bushmaster and DPMS. A MAJORITY of those guns that had problems had less than 1,000 rounds on them. A MAJORITY (almost all) that experienced problems was during the first class that the rifle was used in.

A MAJORITY (almost all) WERE NOT high round count guns.


Do ALL lower quality AR's go have reliablity issues or go down in class? Of course not. With that said, lower quality AR's, have a MUCH higher failure rate and have more reliability issues than QUALITY AR's such as Colt, LMT, BCM, etc.



Compare the list of features of Colt, LMT, and BCM to Stag Arms, DPMS, Olympics Arms, and Bushmaster in the two charts below. Solid information in black and white:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=1

and

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=0


Here is a list of things that Colt, LMT, and BCM do to their rifles to ensure reliablity and long service life.

Note that that DPMS, Bushmaster, Stag Arms and Olympic Arms (and others) DO NOT include these features:

-MPI Bolt
-Pressure Test (HTP) Bolt
-Shot Peen Bolt
-Black Extractor Insert
-Properly staked gas key
-M16 Bolt Carrier
-MilSpec Barrel Steel (Bushmaster uses 4150, but it's not the same grade as defined in the TDP)
-MPI Barrel
-Pressure Test Barrel
-1/7" Rifling Twist
-M4 Feedramps
-"F" Marked Front sight base (needed for flat top receivers....this is why you need the taller front sight post for Bushmasters.....Stag has a F Marked FSB.... but the others don't)
-Milspec carbine receiver extention (this is why you can't fit a SOPMOD, Vltor, or any other Milspec stock directly onto the receiver extention)
-Staked castle nut (this is why sometimes the castle nut on the receiver extention (carbine buffer tube) comes loose on Bushmasters)
-"H" Buffer (heavy carbine buffer)

**The only exception is Stag Arms does include the following on their guns:
-"F" Marked Front sight base
-Milspec carbine receiver extention
-Staked castle nut on ***



The difference is quality, features, and attention to detail. Not just a different roll mark like you claim.




2) False dilemma - You give only two options in your example.

A) Buy a good rifle or

B) Buy a cheap rifle, find out it sucks, and then buy an expensive rifle.

This is an unfair example because AR ownership is so much more in-depth than your provided scenario. If someone owns a Bushy, Stag, or DPMS, and they later decide they want to become a more serious shooter, then there are plenty of options out there to make their rifle reliable enough or more functional for courses without buying an entirely new rifle. Examples would be a better BCG, trigger, etc.

I covered the differences between quality AR's like Colt, LMT, BCM and lower tier AR's like Stag Arms, Bushmaster, DPMS, and Olympic above.....but with this paragraph you prove my point.

I'll use Hail Ceaser's price and advise to help:


Instead of getting that $880 OTD DPMS, get a BCM upper and put the darn thing together at home yourself for right at a grand. No sales tax, FET, or distibuter/dealer profit.


BCM Upper - $475 - BCM bolt carrier group and charging handle if purchased at the same time as the upper - $145 - hanguards $20 - BCM complete lower - $350 -
Complete BCM Carbine - Total = $990

LMT Upper $485 (includes free handguards) - LMT bolt carrier group - $130 charging handle - $23 - LMT Complete lower - $350 -
Complete LMT Carbine - Total = $988

A shooter goes out and buys a DPMS for $880 and his gun isn't reliable, so he buys a BCM or LMT Bolt Carrier Group (as you suggested in paragraph #2)
$130 ...... so you saved around $100, but you just spent $130 putting a new bolt carrier in the gun.

Some other prices for things that may need to be fixed or changed out on a lower tier AR and how much it costs:

-Bolt carrier group $130
-Milspec receiver extention - $50
-Receiver extention wrench to install Milspec receiver extention - $15
-"H" buffer - $23
-Tall front sight post (due to non F marked FSB) - $10
-Lower parts kit - $75


I'm not saying you'll have to change all these things, however even if you just switch out the receiver extention and put in the proper H buffer your total cost is going to be $88 .... and in the end what are you realy saving?


Which is a "better bang for your buck"? Cheap or quality?

I HAVE NEVER REGRETED BUYING QUALITY. I have regreted buying cheap.





Also, when you say,

You must understand that those people that later change their mind to become more serious shooters still compose you proposed 1%. Now that just confuses me. If you believe that out of all the AR shooters that only 1% of them use their rifle to the level of your usage, then why are you recommending everyone get the same rifles? :dunno:
Thanks for the discussion,
Dan

On Page 3, Paul7 stated that there are somewhere around 2,000,000 AR15's owned in the US. This sounds correct, considering how many have been produced over the last 50 years.

How many AR15 owners attend training classes or shoot in matches? And of those that train, how many have already taken at least one other class?

I stand by my statement that approximatley 1% of AR owners train or put more than 10,000 rounds down range a year.

I get on average 5 - 15 requests for information per day about shooting related subjects (questions about optics, AR's, accessories, technical information, classes, matches, shooting techniques, etc, etc, etc). I see a lot of guys that started off as hobby shooter and want to get more serious about shooting (ie. taking training classes, getting involved in shooting matches, or just training on their own or with friends). It's a natural progression, and as men we experience this with most things we get involved in (ie. cars, motorcycles, boats, photography, home repairs, etc, etc). We start off small, enjoy the hobby and get more involved.





Second, while your argument sounds really good in discussion, you have a couple of fallacies.



A couple definitions:

Fallacy - a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning

Experience - the accumulation of knowledge or skill that results from direct participation in events or activities.


*******************************************************


What I have posted in my posts above are experiece, not "fallacies". In my posts in this thread and other threads that we have both been involved in I have listed some of my professional and recreation shooting experiences (ie. classes, matches, and what I do for a living).

You argue a majority of the information that I have posted, yet you haven't listed any of the REAL WORLD FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE you have had with the information you have posted.


Note the date on the watermarks (2006 - 2008) - All different guns:

Stag Arms w/ 16" Mid-Length barrel (I think this was a RRA barrel)
http://www.demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2008.05/small/D462_6384_img.jpg

http://www.coloradoshooting.org/usmc03%20stagc4s.jpg

USMC03
01-06-2010, 18:34
Stag Arms w/ 16" Mid-Length barrel (Sabre Defense barrel)

http://www.demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_8960_img.jpg

http://www.coloradoshooting.org/usmc03%20new%20fg4s.jpg
Stag Arms w/ 16" Mid-Length barrel (Rock River Arms)

http://www.demigodllc.com/photo/TR-FR-2006/small/B100_2974_img.jpg

http://www.demigodllc.com/photo/TR-FR-2006/small/B100_3005_img.jpg

http://www.coloradoshooting.org/usmc03%20sml5s.jpg.jpg

Please give us a list of the experiences you have had with Stag and other brands that you recommended in this thread (ie. how many you have owned, how many rounds down range, under what conditions, over what period of time, how many other Stag / DPMS / etc guns you have personally seen in matches, classes, training at work, etc, etc, etc.)


I'm not trying to get into an internet "pissing contest", but it seems like whenever I post data base on MY REAL WORLD FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES, you try to contradict the info I have posted. I think it's time to back up your claims with REAL WORLD FACTUAL DATA, just like I have.

All I have seen thus far is "theory". I am intrested in first hand experiences and real world data. I posted information based on my first hand experiences with several different manufacturers in classes, matches, training at work, etc. Time for you to do the same (back up your claims with real world first hand experiences and data).

I don't mind another person challenging the information that I have posted, however that's a "two way street". I have posted my background (both professionally and recreationally), posted my real world experiences, spent my own personal time sharing info with others, and given the most technically accurate info I could provide. Time for you to do the same.


There are many guys that are much more knowledgeable and higher speed than me. I'm just a guy that enjoys shooting and try to put out solid information to help other shooters avoid the mistakes I've already made.

faawrenchbndr
01-06-2010, 18:36
For those that care to listen,.....

USMC03 knows what he's talking about.

trifecta
01-06-2010, 18:59
For those that care to listen,.....

USMC03 knows what he's talking about.

Agreed, which is why I'm one of those guys that has PM'd him-and I received a courteous and accurate response. In the end, everybody has their input on here. Everybody else then has to choose which advice is most appropriate for their situation. Thanks USMCO3 and all the other contributors.

pleaforwar
01-07-2010, 00:05
Please give us a list of the experiences you have had with Stag and other brands that you recommended in this thread (ie. how many you have owned, how many rounds down range, under what conditions, over what period of time, how many other Stag / DPMS / etc guns you have personally seen in matches, classes, training at work, etc, etc, etc.)


I'm not trying to get into an internet "pissing contest", but it seems like whenever I post data base on MY REAL WORLD FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES, you try to contradict the info I have posted. I think it's time to back up your claims with REAL WORLD FACTUAL DATA, just like I have.

All I have seen thus far is "theory". I am intrested in first hand experiences and real world data. I posted information based on my first hand experiences with several different manufacturers in classes, matches, training at work, etc. Time for you to do the same (back up your claims with real world first hand experiences and data).

I don't mind another person challenging the information that I have posted, however that's a "two way street". I have posted my background (both professionally and recreationally), posted my real world experiences, spent my own personal time sharing info with others, and given the most technically accurate info I could provide. Time for you to do the same.


There are many guys that are much more knowledgeable and higher speed than me. I'm just a guy that enjoys shooting and try to put out solid information to help other shooters avoid the mistakes I've already made.

Jeff,

I think we have gotten off on the wrong foot.

I will fully concede that you have more hands on experience with various makes and models of AR-15's. My experience extends from five years in the Corps, two years of RSO duty, and two years working in the industry.

My use of the term "fallacy" was informal and never a direct challenge. I made sure to mention that you are a valuable source of information and that I appreciate your activity in this forum.

Now after all that has been said, I stand by my decision to support some of the lesser brands depending on make and model.

My very first AR was a Bushy ORC w/a GG&G rail, EOTech 512, and some other minor upgrades (none involving anything BCG related). I LOVED that rifle. I never experienced a malfunction in my short round count (I didn't actually count but I would estimate around 1500). I decided to ditch it when I finally realized that for my desired application of AR's the ORC was not going to cut it. That is when I made the decision to sell it in order to move to a higher-tier rifle.

I mentioned my time on RSO duty. Yes, I concede that this is a controlled environment, but it fits the needs of the majority of shooters I encounter. When I see an individual with a smile on their face while shooting a lower-tier rifle, I don't question their commitment to AR purity, I bid the my kudos and hope they have a good time. I will throw in that I have never seen a Stag fail on my range during my RSO stint (models that I have seen fail include early edition S&W, DPMS, and Bushmaster).

Now back to my usage of the term "fallacy". My usage was merely used in the scholastic form in hopes to find the most truth in our discussion. Notice how I never used the term argument. People argue when they use petty language and do not consider the other individuals stance. Like I previously stated, I value and highly consider any information you pass.

Thank you again for the discussion, I hope to learn from you and that you understand my posts are mere attempts to gain knowledge and provide my views.

Semper Fi,
-Dan

USMC03
01-07-2010, 07:12
Tone on the internet is hard to convey, this entire posts is not ment to sound harsh, confrontational, or argumenative.

**Nothing in this thread is ment to be a "call out" or make any member here look bad (even though others have attempted to discredit me and the info I posted).**

That being said, I don't mind another person challenging the information that I have posted, however that's a "two way street".

If you are going to challenge my information and I back it up with data based on experience, I expect the same in return.

Don't call me out on the information that I post, and not expect to be held to the same standard.

Big boy rules.



Jeff,

I think we have gotten off on the wrong foot.



Negative. *We* haven't gotten off on the wrong foot. *You* seem to challenge ever post I make on this board in reference to AR15 brands. And I'm not the only one who has noticed it.




My experience extends from five years in the Corps, two years of RSO duty, and two years working in the industry.




Somehow I knew you were going to mention your time in the USMC.

I was a active duty USMC 0311 (Infantry Rifleman), scored in the to 10% of my School of Infantry class and was selected for Security Forces School. Once I got to my permanent duty station I was CQB certified (only 40% of the company passed the CQB certification). I was also a USMC rifle and pistol coach.

I also didn't mention that I have been a SWAT Sniper for over 10 years, that I'm D.E.A. Clandestine Drug Lab certified and a member of our Clanestine Drug Lab team, that I'm SWAT Chemical Munitions certified, that I'm an instructor for different subjects for the Law Enforcement academy, that I'm a NRA Certified Instructor, that I RSO at many of the matches I attend, etc, etc, etc.....

Why didn't I mention my time in the USMC or other experience I have? Because it has ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE to the topic being discussed.

In the USMC we were ALL ISSUED COLT.

Here we are discussing numerous different brands (Bushmaster, Stag, DPMS, etc).

How does your time in the USMC relate to the discussion about Bushmaster, Stag, DPMS, Olympic Arms, etc? Your experience in the USMC has ZERO RELEVANCE to the topic being discussed.


Please explain what you ment by "two years working in the industry" and how it relates to the statements you made in this post and how it relates to your shooting experience. What did you do "in the industry", how many rounds did you shoot, under what conditions, and how did that relate to the information you posted in your previous posts?

It's January 7, 2010. Your signature line states that you were in the USMC from 2003 - 2008. Did you EAS in Jan of 2008.

Earlier in this thread you said you were a college student living off the G.I. Bill. Are you "in the industry" or a college student?

Not calling you out, just trying to understand your comments.




My very first AR was a Bushy ORC w/a GG&G rail, EOTech 512, and some other minor upgrades (none involving anything BCG related). I LOVED that rifle. I never experienced a malfunction in my short round count (I didn't actually count but I would estimate around 1500). I decided to ditch it when I finally realized that for my desired application of AR's the ORC was not going to cut it. That is when I made the decision to sell it in order to move to a higher-tier rifle.




1,500 rounds. In the average carbine class, I'll put 1,500 rounds through a gun in 3 days.

You didn't provide any data as how long it took you to put an estimated 1,500 rounds on the gun, under what conditions, etc, etc, etc.

If the lesser brands are so great, why did you sell it and "move to a higher-tier rifle"?

With that paragraph you proved the point I made above: "Buy cheap, buy twice".

However, you are going to call me out and imply that my comment and experience with buying lesser brands has no merit.





I mentioned my time on RSO duty. Yes, I concede that this is a controlled environment, but it fits the needs of the majority of shooters I encounter. When I see an individual with a smile on their face while shooting a lower-tier rifle, I don't question their commitment to AR purity, I bid the my kudos and hope they have a good time. I will throw in that I have never seen a Stag fail on my range during my RSO stint (models that I have seen fail include early edition S&W, DPMS, and Bushmaster).




I've been shooting in competition for the last decade and I have been a RSO (Range Safety Officer) several times.

I didn't even mention it. Don't feel that it added a lot of weight to my experience.

What kind of competition do you RSO in (ie. IDPA, IPSC, etc)? How many matches a year do you RSO in? How many years have you been a RSO? I'm not trying to call you out, I listed some of my shooting background in this post and other posts so people could understand my "frame of reference" and experience as it relates to the information I was posting.


I have seen Smith and Wesson Sigma's be 100% reliable at a match. Does that mean they are a reliable platform or I would recommend them? No. There is a reason S&W won't sell Sigma's to S&W Law Enforcement dealers (it's due to their reliablity)




Now back to my usage of the term "fallacy". My usage was merely used in the scholastic form in hopes to find the most truth in our discussion. Notice how I never used the term argument. People argue when they use petty language and do not consider the other individuals stance. Like I previously stated, I value and highly consider any information you pass.






Definitions:

Fallacy - a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning

Experience - the accumulation of knowledge or skill that results from direct participation in events or activities.



Considering the information that was provided above most of your posts contain fallacy due to your limited exposure to different manufacturers.

The factual data that I have provided above and in other posts are base on experience over the course of several years in different enviornments (matches, training classes, training on my own, training at work, etc, etc.)


I'm not the one who has been arguing. Everytime I post something you try to counterdict my comments. I back up my comments with factual data based on REAL WORLD FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES.

As of this time, I have not seen you back up your comments with factual data based on REAL WORLD FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES. (Not a call out, but hold yourself to the same standard as you holding me when you contradict the information I post)


You posted that you were in the USMC, a Range Safety Officer for 2 years, "in the industry" for 2 years, and owned a Bushmaster that had an estimated 1,500 rounds on it. How does that back up any of the claims you made? (again, not a call out. I just don't understand how it proves any of the information you posted)


I don't feel that my request for information on experience was satisfied.




Take care and be safe

iiibdsiil
01-07-2010, 08:30
Some information that I have come across:

Half the things on that list are kludges to make the M4 run as well as the M16.

The H buffer and M16 bolt carrier are only assets if you are having function problems from overgassing, which are really only associated with full-auto.

The 4140 vs 5150 vs CVM steel is another thing that doesn't really matter unless you are firing full auto in the arctic.

MP doesn't matter unless you are doing the HP test. The HPT test is because a run of M1903 rifles had poor heat treatment and would explode. The Army made that a requirement that all guns had to survive a "proof round". During Vietnam, guns that had passed such a proofing were breaking anyway. So they added the MP test to see if the HPT had broken anything. Gene Stoner was against the HP test because it was breaking guns. The HP test cartridge is filled with a powder that burns much faster than the stuff used in service rounds. You cannot get the test pressure with the powder that is used in regular ammo, even if you packed it in.

Basically, it's a test that really became obsolete once we learned more about metallurgy since 106 years ago.

The F front sight base is my favorite. The mil-spec calls out so many turns from mechanical zero to actual zero or the gun fails. The flat-tops weren't passing, but it was found if you allowed the sight a few more turns it would zero. So they make the base 0.040" taller so that you got that extra height without changing the number of allowed turns. Adding 0.040" to the post works too. Making the rear sight 0.040" lower would also have worked.

Buying the taller front sight post isn't mandatory, even the Army was accepting M4s with the short front base if they zeroed without it.

1:7 rifling only matters if you are shooting heavier than 69 grain bullets or tracers in the arctic.

1:9 is actually optimal for the M855 ball round.

M4 feed ramps are only needed in a carbine gas system that runs full auto.

The M16 and M16A1 were 1:12, no ramps, full auto...

The H and H2 buffers and M4 ramps are because the carbine system runs a lot faster than the rifle. The rounds don't have time to rise up to the ramps before the bolt is coming forward again. The ramps were the first change, then they added mass to the buffer to slow things down enough that the ramps worked.

Signed,

Holiday Inn Express Customer

faawrenchbndr
01-07-2010, 08:43
Good history lesson, but,............:dunno:

iiibdsiil
01-07-2010, 08:49
But experience trumps all, I know. I just think that the higher tier guns build overall better quality guns, with better tolerances. What's that saying about causation and correlation?

internal
01-07-2010, 08:54
Some information that I have come across:

Half the things on that list are kludges to make the M4 run as well as the M16.

The H buffer and M16 bolt carrier are only assets if you are having function problems from overgassing, which are really only associated with full-auto.

The 4140 vs 5150 vs CVM steel is another thing that doesn't really matter unless you are firing full auto in the arctic.

MP doesn't matter unless you are doing the HP test. The HPT test is because a run of M1903 rifles had poor heat treatment and would explode. The Army made that a requirement that all guns had to survive a "proof round". During Vietnam, guns that had passed such a proofing were breaking anyway. So they added the MP test to see if the HPT had broken anything. Gene Stoner was against the HP test because it was breaking guns. The HP test cartridge is filled with a powder that burns much faster than the stuff used in service rounds. You cannot get the test pressure with the powder that is used in regular ammo, even if you packed it in.

Basically, it's a test that really became obsolete once we learned more about metallurgy since 106 years ago.

The F front sight base is my favorite. The mil-spec calls out so many turns from mechanical zero to actual zero or the gun fails. The flat-tops weren't passing, but it was found if you allowed the sight a few more turns it would zero. So they make the base 0.040" taller so that you got that extra height without changing the number of allowed turns. Adding 0.040" to the post works too. Making the rear sight 0.040" lower would also have worked.

Buying the taller front sight post isn't mandatory, even the Army was accepting M4s with the short front base if they zeroed without it.

1:7 rifling only matters if you are shooting heavier than 69 grain bullets or tracers in the arctic.

1:9 is actually optimal for the M855 ball round.

M4 feed ramps are only needed in a carbine gas system that runs full auto.

The M16 and M16A1 were 1:12, no ramps, full auto...

The H and H2 buffers and M4 ramps are because the carbine system runs a lot faster than the rifle. The rounds don't have time to rise up to the ramps before the bolt is coming forward again. The ramps were the first change, then they added mass to the buffer to slow things down enough that the ramps worked.

Signed,

Holiday Inn Express Customer

You do realize the heavier buffer's where designed originally to stop bolt bounce in full auto?

faawrenchbndr
01-07-2010, 08:57
You do realize the heavier buffer's where designed originally to stop bolt bounce in full auto?

:popcorn:

iiibdsiil
01-07-2010, 09:20
You do realize the heavier buffer's where designed originally to stop bolt bounce in full auto?

Because...? What's causing the bolt to bounce? The gun running faster. Running faster means more energy when the bolt hits. The weights in the buffer counter the bounce by giving a second hit before the bolt carrier has a chance to actually move back. The extra mass _ALSO_ slows the cyclic rate of the gun, giving the ammo a bit more time to index. The moving weights are because of bounce, the heavier moving weights are for slowing the cyclic rate.

Besides, how does this apply to someone buying a bargain basement AR that is never going to see full auto in it's life? How does it help in a course where they are never going to see full auto? Or is it just because Colt does it everyone should?

I know, I'm never going to win this. My name is not nearly known well enough for that to happen. We'll just assume that everything that is needed for a full auto gun is the same on our semi-autos.

pleaforwar
01-07-2010, 09:24
Tone on the internet is hard to convey, this entire posts is not ment to sound harsh, confrontational, or argumenative.

**Nothing in this thread is ment to be a "call out" or make any member here look bad (even though others have attempted to discredit me and the info I posted).**

Not me, I never mentioned anything to discredit you in any form.


That being said, I don't mind another person challenging the information that I have posted, however that's a "two way street". I never challenged your information, your experience, your round count, your training courses, your job titles, or anything about you personally. I disagreed about different applications in relation to income.


If you are going to challenge my information and I back it up with data based on experience, I expect the same in return. See above


Don't call me out on the information that I post, and not expect to be held to the same standard.I wasn't calling you out, rather trying to discuss a conversation. The reason I went into detail about how I disagree with you wasn't me trying to call you out, it was a showing of my respect to you and how I actually care about your opinion. If I wanted to call you out I would have told you that you were full of sh**, etc etc.


Negative. *We* haven't gotten off on the wrong foot. *You* seem to challenge ever post I make on this board in reference to AR15 brands. And I'm not the only one who has noticed it.Really? I mean, I asked what your connection to Bravo Company is and I think Stag rifles are acceptable depending on usage and income level. That is challenging every post you make on this board?


Somehow I knew you were going to mention your time in the USMC. "I have posted my background (both professionally and recreationally), posted my real world experiences, spent my own personal time sharing info with others, and given the most technically accurate info I could provide. Time for you to do the same."

You should have expected me to mention it when you asked me for my professional background. I was happy to oblige.


How does your time in the USMC relate to the discussion about Bushmaster, Stag, DPMS, Olympic Arms, etc? Your experience in the USMC has ZERO RELEVANCE to the topic being discussed. You are right, it doesn't pertain to the discussion at hand. But if you see above you specifically asked and I answered.


Please explain what you ment by "two years working in the industry" and how it relates to the statements you made in this post and how it relates to your shooting experience. What did you do "in the industry", how many rounds did you shoot, under what conditions, and how did that relate to the information you posted in your previous posts? You know I work with Addax Tactical. As soon as I EAS'd I worked with another site sponsor prior to working with Addax Tactical. If you want to know, feel free to PM me as I am not going to divulge this information publicly.


It's January 7, 2010. Your signature line states that you were in the USMC from 2003 - 2008. Did you EAS in Jan of 2008.

Earlier in this thread you said you were a college student living off the G.I. Bill. Are you "in the industry" or a college student?

Actually, my EAS was in April of 2008. Yes, I am a college student, which is the main reason I have not had the opportunity to train with the various firms out there. That will be changing this year. I am slotted for two different carbine courses and am currently trying to find a pistol course.

I am fully aware of not being able to afford the nicer rifles and training due to my financial situation. This is why I tend to sympathize with those that choose Stag depending on the income status.





1,500 rounds. In the average carbine class, I'll put 1,500 rounds through a gun in 3 days.

You didn't provide any data as how long it took you to put an estimated 1,500 rounds on the gun, under what conditions, etc, etc, etc.
That is great for you, but I didn't have the funds nor the time alloted to reach a high round count with this rifle. This was before I even had the GI Bill. See above.

ETA: If you are looking for anything specific on my Bushy, I am sorry but I have nothing for you. I did not annotate my round counts, weather conditions, length of time between cleaning, etc as I never imagined this information being demanded by someone I don't even know. Sorry that I could not oblige you in this matter.



If the lesser brands are so great, why did you sell it and "move to a higher-tier rifle"?

With that paragraph you proved the point I made above: "Buy cheap, buy twice".

However, you are going to call me out and imply that my comment and experience with buying lesser brands has no merit.Actually, I profited off the rifle so it really didn't affect me. Had I continued down the road I was on then I would have been more than happy to keep that Bushy, it fit my needs. I finally decided to upgrade upon realization that I wanted to go more in-depth in the AR platform. That was my conscious decision and does not apply to everyone across the board.

I will admit that your prescribed situation fit me very well. I will not agree that it fits with every AR shooter out there.


I've been shooting in competition for the last decade and I have been a RSO (Range Safety Officer) several times.

What kind of competition do you RSO in (ie. IDPA, IPSC, etc)? How many matches a year do you RSO in? How many years have you been a RSO? I'm not trying to call you out, I listed some of my shooting background in this post and other posts so people could understand my "frame of reference" and experience as it relates to the information I was posting.
I do not RSO competitions, I am a general RSO. I made a point to mention that I concede to it being a controlled environment. Does it compare to years of IDPA and IPSC RSO duty? No, but it doesn't mean I have my head up my ass and that I have never witnessed differing rifles and their operating patterns.
ETA: I have been a RSO for nearly 2 years now (20 months).

Considering the information that was provided above most of your posts contain fallacy due to your limited exposure to different manufacturers.

The factual data that I have provided above and in other posts are base on experience over the course of several years in different enviornments (matches, training classes, training on my own, training at work, etc, etc.)
You have seriously blown my usage of the word fallacy out of proportion. For some reason you keep tying in your experience to contradict the word. For the hundredth time, I never questioned your experience. I merely disagreed with your assertion, and fifteen paragraphs later I still disagree. People with lower incomes should be able to enjoy Stag rifles.


I'm not the one who has been arguing. Everytime I post something you try to counterdict my comments. I back up my comments with factual data based on REAL WORLD FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES.

As of this time, I have not seen you back up your comments with factual data based on REAL WORLD FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES. (Not a call out, but hold yourself to the same standard as you holding me when you contradict the information I post)I will admit, I do not have gigabytes of photos of me on the range, books with hundreds of AAR's, or anything close to your level of real world first hand experiences. Surely, at 26 and a college student it is near impossible to accumulate that amount of experience.

That being said, I should have the ability to disagree with you. There are plenty of other posters on this thread that agree with me, yet you single me out and turn this into a "who has more experience and therefore must know what they are talking about" thread. I NEVER QUESTIONED YOUR KNOWLEDGE OR FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCES. I would have to be a moron to do this. I merely disagreed with you and stated my position on the discussion at hand.


I don't feel that my request for information on experience was satisfied.
If this post doesn't I seriously doubt anything will. I have shown you my experience compared to yours even though it has no relation to what the OP should consider when buying a rifle. I have pretty much submitted to your barrage of personal inquiries and insinuations. What else can I possibly provide to satisfy your needs? If you are hoping that I will admit that I don't have a clue about AR brands, operation, or function, you will never get that from me. While my experience does not rival yours, it has validity and I will not denigrate myself for your personal satisfaction.

internal
01-07-2010, 09:37
Because...? What's causing the bolt to bounce? The gun running faster.

Actually they had to deal with bolt bounce when they went to Heavy Barrels in full auto.

The bolt didn't want to bounce with the lighter barrels.

jobob
01-07-2010, 10:22
Actually they had to deal with bolt bounce when they went to Heavy Barrels in full auto.

The bolt didn't want to bounce with the lighter barrels.

Huh? Never heard that before. I don't understand how the weight of the barrel would have anything to do with bolt bounce.

My understanding is that it was caused by the shorter gas tube on the M4 (shorter distance to gas vent in barrel) resulted in higher pressure, higher bcg velocity and faster cycle rate on fa. Also, the higher pressure was causing the bolt to open earlier in the cycle, and the heavier bolt helped delay this slightly to allow the pressure to drop off before the action opened.

I'm not a firearm design engineer, and don't play one on tv, but that is what I've read in various sources.

MCKNBRD
01-07-2010, 10:35
Another thread death-spirals into 'my dad's AR can beat up your dad's AR'.

Pathetic.

OP: see my previous post. Buy what you can afford, buy several magazines, and load up on ammo. Get some basic rifle marksmanship instruction, learn the basics, and master them. When you break something (and you will!), fix it with the best parts you can afford.

Pretty simple, unless you're more worried about impressing internet buddies than putting holes where you want them when you want to.

Byrdman

internal
01-07-2010, 10:46
Huh? Never heard that before. I don't understand how the weight of the barrel would have anything to do with bolt bounce.


I didn't believe it either until the American Rifleman magazine did a big article on the Colt factory.

In that article they go over alot of the revisions to the M16 and M4 and it explained it all in the article.

As far as the barrel weight making a difference think about it, the heavier the barrel the less energy it's going to absorb as the BCG slams back into battery.

For example, if something fell from the sky onto dirt the dirt is going to absorb some of that impact.

If something fell from the sky on to something solid, its more likely to reflect that energy back and in turn cause the falling object to bounce a few times as it hits.

trifecta
01-07-2010, 10:59
Another thread death-spirals into 'my dad's AR can beat up your dad's AR'.

Byrdman

I think we need an internet Octagon. Throw 'em in and wait for a tap out or a knock out.

iiibdsiil
01-07-2010, 11:26
Actually they had to deal with bolt bounce when they went to Heavy Barrels in full auto.

The bolt didn't want to bounce with the lighter barrels.

Okay, scratch it off my rant then.

Edit: Or not. Someone explain why the XM177 has more bolt bounce than an M16A1 and why an M16A2 has the same bounce as an M16A1. The XM177 has a LIGHTER barrel than the M16A1 because it's shorter and the same profile. The M16A2 has a heavier barrel than the M16A1 because of the thicker profile forward of the handguards. All of the rifles use the same buffer. After the current design was introduced, of course, but that was in the late '60s.

My engineer adds:
It's one of the first things we learned in statics. It's the dual dynamics fallacy (not its real name) where you attempt to explain the action of one moving body by claiming the other body moved too. Which it does; but the math doesn't match the real world until you make at least one part stationary. In this equation, that is the barrel.

So, bang, the shot is fired. Bullet goes down the (stationary) barrel. Gas is bled off and returns down the gas tube. Gas enters the bolt carrier and expands behind the bolt, pushing it forward against the (stationary) barrel. This propels the bolt carrier to the rear, against the buffer and spring. The weights inside the buffer will be pushed to the front of the buffer by inertia by the rearward movement of the buffer.The whole mess moves to the rear. It is stopped by the spring and/or the elastic pad of the buffer hitting the end of the tube. The weights keep moving to the rear as the buffer and BCG are pushed forward by the spring. Bolt hits end of barrel, bolt carrier keeps moving forward, camming the bolt locked. Bolt carrier hits barrel extension; tries to rebound (bounce) and the weights in the buffer hit the front of the buffer, countering the rebound.

Because the whole mess is moving FASTER in a carbine gas system, there's more energy in it, so you need more mass in the weights to counter the rebound. In semi-auto, the time between shots is long enough that the SPRING will push things back closed before the hammer can fall. The H2 buffer was developed to slow the auto rate down for feed, not for rebound.

Still waiting on why we all need the revisions that were for FA are required for semi-auto. Other than because Colt does it, of course.

iiibdsiil
01-07-2010, 11:31
Another thread death-spirals into 'my dad's AR can beat up your dad's AR'.



Yup, another thread where no one answers the guys question and pushes something that is out of his budget because it's sssssssoooooooo much better. I thought I was on Arfcom for a minute.

faawrenchbndr
01-07-2010, 11:35
Yup, another thread where no one answers the guys question and pushes something that is out of his budget because it's sssssssoooooooo much better. I thought I was on Arfcom for a minute.

The OP's question was answered many pages ago.

jobob
01-07-2010, 11:48
Okay, scratch it off my rant then.

Still waiting on why we all need the revisions that were for FA are required for semi-auto. Other than because Colt does it, of course.

Bolt bounce can affect semi-autos too. If the bolt bounces a little out of lockup, it can result in an out-of-battery situation.

iiibdsiil
01-07-2010, 11:54
Bolt bounce can affect semi-autos too. If the bolt bounces a little out of lockup, it can result in an out-of-battery situation.

File that under "reaching."

Alaskapopo
01-07-2010, 12:05
Bolt bounce can affect semi-autos too. If the bolt bounces a little out of lockup, it can result in an out-of-battery situation.

I am afraid not. The AR15 can not fire out of battery as the firing pin is not long enough to reach the primer when the bolt is not fully locked up. However your correct that having a heavier carrier can still help semi's. The reason for having a buffer built the way it is with counter weights on the inside is to prevent carrier bounce in full auto. However having heavier buffers is to offset gas port erosion and the gun unlocking too early causing difficult extraction. That has nothing to do with full auto or semi auto use.
Pat

jobob
01-07-2010, 12:19
I am afraid not. The AR15 can not fire out of battery as the firing pin is not long enough to reach the primer when the bolt is not fully locked up. However your correct that having a heavier carrier can still help semi's. The reason for having a buffer built the way it is with counter weights on the inside is to prevent carrier bounce in full auto. However having heavier buffers is to offset gas port erosion and the gun unlocking too early causing difficult extraction. That has nothing to do with full auto or semi auto use.
Pat

I wasn't referring to out of battery firing, it's just out of battery and you'll get a misfire. But, now that you mention it, if the oob situation is caused by bolt bounce, then, theoretically, the primer will be in contact with the bolt face because it will have been picked up by the extractor, and the fp could reach the primer. In that situation, what will prevent an oob firing would be the firing pin not being in a position where it would be struck directly by the hammer, assuming a modern shrouded firing pin.

jobob
01-07-2010, 12:22
File that under "reaching."

Not reaching If the weapon is dirty and/or not lubed, and bolt bounce occurs, it may not return to battery.

Alaskapopo
01-07-2010, 12:23
I wasn't referring to out of battery firing, it's just out of battery and you'll get a misfire. But, now that you mention it, if the oob situation is caused by bolt bounce, then, theoretically, the primer will be in contact with the bolt face because it will have been picked up by the extractor, and the fp could reach the primer. In that situation, what will prevent an oob firing would be the firing pin not being in a position where it would be struck directly by the hammer, assuming a modern shrouded firing pin.

If the bolt bounces back the firing pin is pulled back as well. The firing pin is intentionally made so that it will not reach the primer except when the bolt is fully locked up and in its most forward position.
Pat

faawrenchbndr
01-07-2010, 13:20
If the bolt bounces back the firing pin is pulled back as well. The firing pin is intentionally made so that it will not reach the primer except when the bolt is fully locked up and in its most forward position.
Pat

Yep,......:thumbsup:

jobob
01-07-2010, 14:02
If the bolt bounces back the firing pin is pulled back as well. The firing pin is intentionally made so that it will not reach the primer except when the bolt is fully locked up and in its most forward position.
Pat

You're right! Now that I think about it, there is no way the fp can reach the primer.

My bad!

internal
01-07-2010, 14:24
I've actually had an OOB KB in an AR before.

I got pics also I;ll post em up later when I get off with my jobs today.

It was the ammo's fault of course, like you guys are saying by design the firing pin cannot reach.

The primer blow out of the case, FUSED to the face of the bolt and when the next round was chambered "BOOM" it fired out of battery due to the stuck primer acting like the firing pin but of course the headspace was off when it hit.

Destroyed the upper and bolt.

jobob
01-07-2010, 14:51
I've actually had an OOB KB in an AR before.

I got pics also I;ll post em up later when I get off with my jobs today.

It was the ammo's fault of course, like you guys are saying by design the firing pin cannot reach.

The primer blow out of the case, FUSED to the face of the bolt and when the next round was chambered "BOOM" it fired out of battery due to the stuck primer acting like the firing pin but of course the headspace was off when it hit.

Destroyed the upper and bolt.

Ouch! Damn, that must not have made your day! Hope you still have all your fingers! :wow:

internal
01-07-2010, 16:14
It actually worked out really well.

The blowout followed the path of least resistance which was the ejection port and magazine so I wasn't hurt at all.

The ammo was sold by Aimsurplus so I called them up and they replaced my upper no questions asked, they are a great company.

I sold the upper for just the price of the barrel and let the buyer know the story so I made $150 off the situation I guess.

LLL
01-08-2010, 21:58
I challenge any DPMS supporter to take a stock DPMS gun through a week long rifle class with any respected trainer and report back on the guns performance. I have seen DPMS guns choke in light round count 2 day classes. DPMS guns are not to be trusted. I know you have had good luck with yours. But as we have talked about before your DPMS is not stock. Again you are entitled to your opinion and I am mine. If a shooter wants a DPMS strictly as a range gun then fine. But if there is even an off chance it may do duty as a home defense gun or as Police patrol rifle forget about it.

Pat

if DPMS will supply me with a gun and send me to a week long carbine course, Ill volunteer my time. This would be a awesome learning experience for me and the truth would be told about DPMS quality.

LLL

Alaskapopo
01-08-2010, 23:33
if DPMS will supply me with a gun and send me to a week long carbine course, Ill volunteer my time. This would be a awesome learning experience for me and the truth would be told about DPMS quality.

LLL

Many have tried before and had their DPMS die.
Pat

Jitterbug
01-09-2010, 09:08
I've been scouring the internet for info on putting together or purchasing my first AR, I just knew If I came over here I'd find some good info....I'm only read through the first 57 threads and need to come back, but good job guys! I've learned more here on 2 cups of coffee then I did in 4 hours over on AR15.com.


Also, I did check out Rob's Chart, on M4Carbine? that is very useful.

I got to get to work, but I'll be back....

Thanks for all the good info!

45reloader
01-10-2010, 08:03
if DPMS will supply me with a gun and send me to a week long carbine course, Ill volunteer my time. This would be a awesome learning experience for me and the truth would be told about DPMS quality.

LLL

I'll shoot mine if someone pays for the course.

LLL
01-11-2010, 20:42
Many have tried before and had their DPMS die.
Pat

just wondering, not counting ammo and such, whats a course like that run???
AP dont ruin my chance at FREE LEARNING, im a broke guy, and maybe ill have something good to report. YOU HEAR ME DPMS, Im here and ready to roll.
LLL

Alaskapopo
01-11-2010, 21:04
just wondering, not counting ammo and such, whats a course like that run???
AP dont ruin my chance at FREE LEARNING, im a broke guy, and maybe ill have something good to report. YOU HEAR ME DPMS, Im here and ready to roll.
LLL

The cost depends on the instructor. I have gotten good courses for free as a Cop that cost my department nothing other than ammo and my time. These usually came from larger agencies being charitable and hosting training classes for us po dunk departments. The Anchorage Police Department and the Alaska State Troopers are both very generous in this manner. I have paid for classes on my own dime from Benni Cooley and Ron Avery. The Cooley class was an Urban rifle class that lasted 1 week and cost only $250 about 9 years ago. The Avery Class was a handgun class that cost 150 or so and was only 3 days long at 10 year old prices. I looked into a Vickers class and he was charging $600 for a week.
Pat

pleaforwar
01-16-2010, 16:52
Fellow Glocktalkers:

I would like to take the opportunity to make a public apology to Jeff (USMC03). I made some posts that, in hindsight, were not executed in an amicable or sensible manner. I admit that my experience is nowhere near Jeff's league, and I should have worded my posts with more tact and respect for Jeff's experience.

Thank you to Jeff for providing your experience and knowledge on that AR platform, other weapons systems, gear, and training information to all the members on GT. You are a valuable member and your suggestions should be taken seriously.

-Dan