Further explanation of 'run it wet' please [Archive] - Glock Talk

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furioso2112
01-02-2010, 19:23
I have been thinking more about 'run it wet'. Ran a new carbine and had FTE within a few rounds (started dry, on purpose, 'cause I never had, and wanted to solve a failure). Then lubed the whole thing copiously - entire BCG, carrier, inside of upper, chamber, heck, probably even the dust door. No more FTE's, but all that isn't necessary, yeah? Where does one really need lots o'lube, and where is less alright? I don't want unnecessary oil to attract dirt to the areas that don't need it, and if I can avoid any more spray in the face through the charging handle, that's always a plus (without paying $90+ for a gasbuster CH).

DustyJacket
01-02-2010, 19:52
Ars love lube, especially new.

Back it off a bit after the BCG and bolt are worn in.

Alaskapopo
01-02-2010, 19:56
I have been thinking more about 'run it wet'. Ran a new carbine and had FTE within a few rounds (started dry, on purpose, 'cause I never had, and wanted to solve a failure). Then lubed the whole thing copiously - entire BCG, carrier, inside of upper, chamber, heck, probably even the dust door. No more FTE's, but all that isn't necessary, yeah? Where does one really need lots o'lube, and where is less alright? I don't want unnecessary oil to attract dirt to the areas that don't need it, and if I can avoid any more spray in the face through the charging handle, that's always a plus (without paying $90+ for a gasbuster CH).

They have run tests and it has shown that more lube is better even in dusty conditions. Don't worry about attracking dirt and dust it will stay suspended in the lube. What the lube does is keep the carbon fouling soft so the gun keeps running. I squirt oil on the bolt and rub it around with my fingers. I then do the same with the botl carrier. It would be visibly oily. I put a drop on the sear engagement in the lower. If your gun does not smoke on you first round you did not lube it enough.
Pat

halfmoonclip
01-02-2010, 19:56
IIRC, light coat of oil on the exterior of the bolt carrier, and a generous shot in the two vent holes and the cam track in the carrier. Doesn't hurt to lube the buffer as well, and the fire control group parts like a dab.
In long strings of fire, or if you don't really feel like cleaning it right now, give it another shot in the vent holes.
Moon

furioso2112
01-02-2010, 20:03
Alaskapopo - that's just how I've been doing it since my failure experiment. Have not heard that description of the utility of the extra oil (suspending the dirt and keeping carbon less hard), but it makes technical sense.

What does anyone think of the GasBuster CH? I just put a BCM Gun fighter on my most recent build (will be used for competition, so I got it with the largest latch - so far, I like the extended controls and haven't run into problems with them, though I realize that things on a gun sticking out too much could be a liability).

Alaskapopo
01-02-2010, 20:06
Alaskapopo - that's just how I've been doing it since my failure experiment. Have not heard that description of the utility of the extra oil (suspending the dirt and keeping carbon less hard), but it makes technical sense.

What does anyone think of the GasBuster CH? I just put a BCM Gun fighter on my most recent build (will be used for competition, so I got it with the largest latch - so far, I like the extended controls and haven't run into problems with them, though I realize that things on a gun sticking out too much could be a liability).

I like extended charging handles because they are easier to run with gloves in the cold. When clearing malfunctions you can use use your hand like a knife blade and run the gun as you rock the gun to the right so the chamber is facing the ground. It is quick and easy.
Pat

furioso2112
01-02-2010, 20:13
Yeah - I only wear gloves in the cold, but I typically do the open-handed rack - I found I'd punch myself in the face too often if I tried to catch it with a bent finger, and open-hand is far more comfortable with my long arms - if I put a finger on each side of the CH, I have to push the gun out of position and it's inefficient for me. I try to do the same thing every time, gloves or not, to increase speed and efficiency.

MrMurphy
01-02-2010, 20:20
Lube the bottom of the BCG. Upper side around the gas key. The charging handle itself. Sometimes I'll throw some on the back of the bolt lugs.

I am slowly using up the last of my CLP, will be replaced with Slip 2000.

furioso2112
01-02-2010, 20:28
Ah yes...the lube question. I have been contemplating a switch from Breakfree CLP...I bought a gallon of it, half of which went into a container so I can soak parts until I get around to cleaning them. Getting towards rid of the rest, and while I haven't had any bad issues with it, I'm not convinced that there isn't something better. I have seen the Slip 2000 at BCM, but there are so many fans of so many things out there that it's tought to come up with a strong reason to switch...or not to, really.

Rebel_James
01-02-2010, 21:53
Here's a great article on 'runnin it wet.'


http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf




.

furioso2112
01-03-2010, 22:04
HA! great link - thanks. some good info in there - I had never heard of that test for gas rings. I like the picture of lubing with Vagisil - too funny!

RMTactical
01-03-2010, 23:21
Here's a great article on 'runnin it wet.'


http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf




.

Great article and I agree with most of it. However, I have never had issues with CLP in my AR15's.

jobob
01-03-2010, 23:25
Alaskapopo is right about lube. Keep it wet. I use either CLP or Slip 2000 EWL, depending on my mood. They both work great, but I really don't care for Slip's smell. It isn't overpowering, but just isn't pleasant.

I would also agree about the extended charging handle, and I do use them on competition guns. But I found when using a tactical 2 point sling the long charging handle latch pokes me in the chest uncomfortably. Maybe I'm like the princess who could feel a pea under forty mattresses, but seems to me a guy could get hurt by one of those if you got in a tussle. I keep the issue charging handle latch on my 'social' guns.

jobob
01-03-2010, 23:33
By the way, on the issue of lube. I forgot to mention that I've been using Rig +P Stainless Steel Lube on the bcg. It's a grease that stays where you put it. Someone told me that it seems similar to the grease the military use to issue to lube the Garand. I don't know if it's the same or not, but it works great, and doesn't seem to burn off as easily as thinner lubes. Makes the action silky smooth, too. It also is good to use on the buffer and spring to help reduce that sproingy noise in the butt stock. It may not be the best thing for cold weather, though. I've used it on a 1911 in the cold, and although it still worked, you could tell the action was S-L-O-W!

jbremount
01-04-2010, 06:23
The DI system put carbon fouling and "heat" back into the bolt control group and everyone is basically trying to combat this, more so than the friction of metal against metal as usually the case. I use Lucas X-Tra heavy wheel bearing grease. (Probably any wheel bearing grease will work, but the lucus smells betters and works well) Anyway, I grease only the "rails" on the bolt carrier. I then grease the entire bolt so it slide easily into the carrier. I see no need for the entire bolt carrier to be sloppy wet with grease or oil. All areas of the carrier are not in contact with the upper, it's just the rails. That's where the oil or grease needs to be. If you shoot a DI AR gun a lot in a short period of time, the heat from the gases will dry up a light weight oil. The high temp wheel bearing grease will stay on the rails, exactly where you put it. Also, precisely where it needs to be. That said, there happens to be hundreds of ways to lube the AR and everyone has their favorite lube. Just the way the cards played out with DI AR guns.

Pictures of AR-15 rails to grease:http://www.varminthunters.com/ar15tech/ar15greasepoints.html

There was a video on You tube demonstrating how to use grease for your BCG. here it is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXIsKEHo-4g

USMC03
01-04-2010, 07:25
What does anyone think of the GasBuster CH? I just put a BCM Gun fighter on my most recent build (will be used for competition, so I got it with the largest latch - so far, I like the extended controls and haven't run into problems with them, though I realize that things on a gun sticking out too much could be a liability).

I use to be extremely obsessive about cleaning my firearms. Cleaning guns was something that was drilled into my head in the USMC.

Then I started shooting competition. Many competition / 3 gun shooters don't clean their guns. This mentality was forign to me at first.

I host several training classes a year. Most trainers have loaner guns for students to use. Most of these guns rarely get cleaned.

I rarely clean my AR's. Just keep adding lube.

If the outside of the bolt carrier is still wet, at the end of the day (training, match, class), I'll lay the AR on it's side with the ejection port cover up, pull the charging handle back until I can see the silver bolt rings of the bolt (looking through the gas holes on the bolt carrier), and put a drop or two in each hole, cycle the charging handle several times, and use the gun the following day with no issues.


Something that Pat Rogers wrote that shows you how long a quality AR can go without cleaning if you keep adding lube:


Filthy 14 is the most used, and has (as of today) 28905 rds down range.

The barrel is original. It has never had a brush put through it.

-At 16400 rds bolt lug cracked.
Replaced BCG

-At 26450 rds had 3 failures to extract.
Replaced BCG and cleaned gun

We use only SLip2000 EWL for lube and Slip 2000 725 to clean.

**All of the rounds were fired during class (at the rate of approximately 1250 rds every 3 day)**

I do not recommend allowing the gun to go this long without PM.
However, we wanted to see how far we could take this particular gun (#14) without being burdened by the myth of meticulous cleaning.






I found that the PRI Gas Buster charging did very little to keep lube and gases from blowing back into my face. The PRI Gas Buster has two bumps on the bottom side of the charging handle. Most of the gases and lube that blow back into your face come from the top side of the charging handle (if you look at the top side of the charging handle you can see a gap, this is where most of the gases and lube that blows back in your face come from)

I was taugh a simple, cheap, and very effective do it yourself gas buster modificiation several years ago. I have even done this to my PRI Gas Buster charging handle. This technique costs less than $5, it's more effective than the $90 Gas Buster charging handle, and can be done to ANY charging handle:

http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/do-it-yourself-gas-buster-chargining-handle/icon-do-it-yourself-gas-buster.jpg
03designgroup | Do It Yourself Gas Buster Charging Handle http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/do-it-yourself-gas-buster-charging-handle)



Hope this helps

jobob
01-04-2010, 10:24
Jeff, I like that fix. I haven't had much problem with blow back in my face, but it looks like good insurance anyway. Thanks!

CW Mock
01-04-2010, 12:25
I use to be extremely obsessive about cleaning my firearms. Cleaning guns was something that was drilled into my head in the USMC.

Then I started shooting competition. Many competition / 3 gun shooters don't clean their guns. This mentality was forign to me at first.

I host several training classes a year. Most trainers have loaner guns for students to use. Most of these guns rarely get cleaned.

I rarely clean my AR's. Just keep adding lube.

If the outside of the bolt carrier is still wet, at the end of the day (training, match, class), I'll lay the AR on it's side with the ejection port cover up, pull the charging handle back until I can see the silver bolt rings of the bolt (looking through the gas holes on the bolt carrier), and put a drop or two in each hole, cycle the charging handle several times, and use the gun the following day with no issues.


Something that Pat Rogers wrote that shows you how long a quality AR can go without cleaning if you keep adding lube:






I found that the PRI Gas Buster charging did very little to keep lube and gases from blowing back into my face. The PRI Gas Buster has two bumps on the bottom side of the charging handle. Most of the gases and lube that blow back into your face come from the top side of the charging handle (if you look at the top side of the charging handle you can see a gap, this is where most of the gases and lube that blows back in your face come from)

I was taugh a simple, cheap, and very effective do it yourself gas buster modificiation several years ago. I have even done this to my PRI Gas Buster charging handle. This technique costs less than $5, it's more effective than the $90 Gas Buster charging handle, and can be done to ANY charging handle:

http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/do-it-yourself-gas-buster-chargining-handle/icon-do-it-yourself-gas-buster.jpg
03designgroup | Do It Yourself Gas Buster Charging Handle http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/do-it-yourself-gas-buster-charging-handle)



Hope this helps

I am going to try that out ASAP, thanks for the info!

Hedo1
01-04-2010, 12:31
AlaskaP

Have you ever used grease on an AR? I've tried some Tetra Gun Grease on a carbine recently and it appeared to work pretty well. It's light as greases go but heavier then most oils. I've used the Tetra grease on my M1a for years.

smokin762
01-04-2010, 13:23
I found that the PRI Gas Buster charging did very little to keep lube and gases from blowing back into my face. The PRI Gas Buster has two bumps on the bottom side of the charging handle. Most of the gases and lube that blow back into your face come from the top side of the charging handle (if you look at the top side of the charging handle you can see a gap, this is where most of the gases and lube that blows back in your face come from)

I was taugh a simple, cheap, and very effective do it yourself gas buster modificiation several years ago. I have even done this to my PRI Gas Buster charging handle. This technique costs less than $5, it's more effective than the $90 Gas Buster charging handle, and can be done to ANY charging handle:

http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/do-it-yourself-gas-buster-chargining-handle/icon-do-it-yourself-gas-buster.jpg
03designgroup | Do It Yourself Gas Buster Charging Handle http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/do-it-yourself-gas-buster-charging-handle)



Hope this helps

My friends have told me time after time that I use too much oil in my ARís. They tell me that I should not get oil blown into my face like that but I am much more comfortable with the rifle being nice and wet.

Thank you for the tip. I will try it this weekend.

sgtlmj
01-04-2010, 13:48
In basic training, they'd have us open up our bolts and the drill sgts would hose them down with a Break-Free pump bottle.

NeverMore1701
01-04-2010, 14:11
In basic training, they'd have us open up our bolts and the drill sgts would hose them down with a Break-Free pump bottle.

Yup, they weren't kidding around with WET :faint:

series1811
01-04-2010, 14:28
In basic training, they'd have us open up our bolts and the drill sgts would hose them down with a Break-Free pump bottle.

When we were issued our Colts way back in the 80s, we were told that if there wasn't oil dripping out of it, it needed more oil. That's been the way I have always run my ARs, Colt and other brands, semi and select fire, 9mm and .223, ever since, and it always seems to make all of them run the best that way.

furioso2112
01-04-2010, 19:13
wow - more good info on this thread. USMC03 might just have saved me and several others $85. Cheers.

cj3410
01-05-2010, 13:45
Weapon Shield is a great CLP that I have used. You also can't go wrong with something simple like Mobil 1 synthetic, of course there is then the whole which viscosity to use argument.

KalashniKEV
01-05-2010, 13:58
That's been the way I have always run my ARs, Colt and other brands, semi and select fire, 9mm and .223, ever since, and it always seems to make all of them run the best that way.

My 9mm DEMANDS the wetness... or at least I believe it helps it return to battery since that was my 1 teething issue during break in. It went away when I added some lube and I've been running extra wet ever since.

This is with Standard FCG, Standard Buffer, Standard everything too.

USMC03
01-05-2010, 15:14
Jeff, I like that fix. I haven't had much problem with blow back in my face, but it looks like good insurance anyway. Thanks!


Thanks.


I did a poor job of articulating myself in my last post.


In reference to the blow back (and running the gun wet) I should have explained myself a little better:

After a shooter re-lubes the AR and the bolt carrier group is wet with lube, the first couple shots (after relubing) you get a lot of gases blown back in your face (excess lube being burnt off) and get little specs of lube on your shooting glasses.

The DIY Gas Buster Modification greatly reduces the excess gases and lube being blown back into the shooters face when the AR has been freshly lubed.


Also reduces blow back of gases in the shooters face when running a suppressor.

RWBlue
01-05-2010, 17:57
IMHO, To the OP, go back and dry off your rifle. You gun should be broken in dry with 100-200 rounds of full power M193 or M855. This will put a little wear on the rifle (a good it more wear than if you shot it wet). The full power round "should" cycle in the gun.

After the rifle is broken in, lube where the bolt carriage rides in the upper. I use Slip.

Keep the rifle lubed at those spots.

If you want to keep your rifle clean, get the carbon cleaner from the people who makes Slip.

RWBlue
01-05-2010, 18:02
I never really had a problem with gas coming back through the charge handle, but when I planned on running my AR with a suppressor I bought gas buster handle. It works well, no issues with or without a suppressor.

It is an issue with a 22LR conversion. The conversion will not work with the gas buster handle.

halfmoonclip
01-05-2010, 18:39
Reading veteran's posts about being taught heavy lube in basic is in sharp contrast to my own experience in 1970. We were scarcely encouraged to lube anything; not knowing any better, I took my M-16 dash-nothing to the range bone dry on one occasion. Ran just fine, BTW.
Once I was to my unit, word did come down to oil early and often, but that training often wasn't very coherent.
Since Bill Clinton convinced me I needed a black rifle, I've kept it wet with LSA. Old habits die hard.
Moon

furioso2112
01-05-2010, 19:31
IMHO, To the OP, go back and dry off your rifle. You gun should be broken in dry with 100-200 rounds of full power M193 or M855. This will put a little wear on the rifle (a good it more wear than if you shot it wet). The full power round "should" cycle in the gun.

After the rifle is broken in, lube where the bolt carriage rides in the upper. I use Slip.

Keep the rifle lubed at those spots.

If you want to keep your rifle clean, get the carbon cleaner from the people who makes Slip.

This also seems reasonable..although all I ever use is full-power ammo, so the wear will get there sooner or later.

Alaskapopo
01-05-2010, 19:51
Its not a good idea to run a AR15 dry except in extreme cold weather. Below 0. If you do run it dry you will have to clean it a lot more often as the carbon fouling builds up fast and turns hard stopping the gun.
Pat

8-Ball
01-07-2010, 19:39
I'm not sure I've ever shot a reliable M16A1 that wasn't (usually literally) dripping wet with CLP. That's military crap though.

My personal AR gets a good lube job, but not dripping.