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recon
01-03-2010, 21:05
More info coming at the shot show. Hopefully we will know if this is ever going to be released to us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLy3xABAsEc

furioso2112
01-03-2010, 21:40
Nice video, thanks for posting.

Morris
01-03-2010, 22:57
I suspect you will see production models in this year.

Krigloch
01-03-2010, 23:02
very cool! me want!

duncan
01-04-2010, 22:16
Instead of playing follow the leader like S&W and Ruger, Remington has gone out of a limb.

Problem, a lot of those features seem to be add on accessories like those of Magpul. Who is their market, military. That will be a feat replacing the M16! New caliber yes but it seems most branches like the AR-15's modular design and various manufacturers since much is now mil-spec.

Although the 556 and 6.8 interchangability is novel for that concept rifle.

While it compete in the Ar-15 market? Nope.:dunno:

RMTactical
01-04-2010, 22:44
Instead of playing follow the leader like S&W and Ruger, Remington has gone out of a limb.

Problem, a lot of those features seem to be add on accessories like those of Magpul. Who is their market, military. That will be a feat replacing the M16! New caliber yes but it seems most branches like the AR-15's modular design and various manufacturers since much is now mil-spec.

Although the 556 and 6.8 interchangability is novel for that concept rifle.

While it compete in the Ar-15 market? Nope.:dunno:

Remington followed the leader too, everyone is getting into the AR15 game now.

space_weazel
01-05-2010, 01:20
Instead of playing follow the leader like S&W and Ruger, Remington has gone out of a limb.

Problem, a lot of those features seem to be add on accessories like those of Magpul. Who is their market, military. That will be a feat replacing the M16! New caliber yes but it seems most branches like the AR-15's modular design and various manufacturers since much is now mil-spec.

Although the 556 and 6.8 interchangability is novel for that concept rifle.

While it compete in the Ar-15 market? Nope.:dunno:

Remington got this from Magpul, they didn't go out on a limb. Magpul designed it, did all the leg work, got the public really excited about it, did lots of testing and R&D and then knowing they were far to small to actually build the thing on a large scale sold it to Bushmaster which is owned by Cerberus who also owns Remington who they transferred it to.

Just FYI

Caldonnox
01-05-2010, 03:25
This is why it's taking so long to bring the rifle out. They have to make flashy videos with cool CG of their new gun :rofl:

Chuck TX
01-05-2010, 08:00
I'll believe it when it's actually on the market.

Graves
01-05-2010, 08:08
I'll be waiting....

mgs
01-05-2010, 11:29
Very cool.....looks like the piston is gaining speed and I love the folding stock and modular design. Magpul is a great company, Mike.

glock22357
01-07-2010, 10:43
....I've been waiting for more info from Bushmaster on this, and now it's been given to Remington. Hmmmmm....

I gotta say, that rifle looks freakin' awesome!!! If my re-education develops into a good career this year (HVAC job-searchin' right now) I will get one of those when they're out....if the price is right. It will probably be like the SCAR, expensive to start out, then hopefully getting less expensive as time goes by.

Waiting with baited breath am I. What a beautiful rifle!!! Add an ACOG TA31F, and you're good to go!!!

TimP
01-07-2010, 12:09
ive handled and shot an ACR.

while it looks cool, it is still just another magazine fed, semi-auto rifle that shoots 223 in stock form.

that being said it does offer some neat features, but my AR-15s still work just fine for me YMMV
TimP

glock22357
01-07-2010, 12:49
ive handled and shot an ACR.

while it looks cool, it is still just another magazine fed, semi-auto rifle that shoots 223 in stock form.

that being said it does offer some neat features, but my AR-15s still work just fine for me YMMV
TimP

FWIW....

Since this is the Black Rifle Forum, dedicated to the M16/AR15/M4 family of rifles, a certain ammount of "Who cares?", "It's not as good as my M4gery!" and "There's nothing wrong with the DI system." and so on is expected.

But the truth is that our Military SHOULD move on to a new rifle soon. The operating systems of rifles such as the SCAR, ACR and XCR are the future, just like the M16 was back in the 1950s. Wether purchasing hundreds of thousands of new rifles is financially viable right now is another question, but there are better choices out there.

humanguerrilla
01-07-2010, 13:29
Closeups and inside the most recent Bushmaster (civilian) ACR:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/18/bushmaster-acr-photos/

magpul has confirmed that the old Masada handguard is already "a production item" accessory.

okie
01-07-2010, 13:43
Very kool indeed:thumbsup:

jobob
01-07-2010, 14:43
I've been lusting for one of these ever since Magpul announced it. Looks like I need to start saving!

Gallium
01-07-2010, 14:55
If I have move to get one of these...I might! :)

ForTehNguyen
01-12-2010, 18:41
Countdown on Bushmasters website:
http://www.bushmaster.com/acr/

Advertisement on the SHOT Show 2010 magazine

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/961/acrad.jpg

Krigloch
01-12-2010, 19:48
:rock:

Quiet
01-12-2010, 20:53
rumor is MSRP $2300.

raven11
01-12-2010, 21:27
rumor is MSRP $2300.
not too bad but then again the FN SCAR was suppose to retail for $2500.00

Chuck TX
01-12-2010, 22:00
It'll be interesting to see what the price winds up being. Any idea what the cost will be for the parts to go from 5.56 to 6.8?

space_weazel
01-12-2010, 23:06
Holy ...... I never thought this would actually materialize, let alone be transferred back to Bushmaster. 6 days huh...... $2300 is to much, if that's where it starts, I'll wait for the rush to clear and pick one up at a pittance by comparison.

COLOSHOOTR
01-13-2010, 01:32
Well I'll let this do all the explaining....http://www.bushmaster.com/acr/

Tic-Tock! It's coming!

The thread on Arfcom still seems to be saying the price will be under $2000 and info was coming from the guys at Magpuk(who are still heavly involved in the ACR production) HINTING at that being the case... No exact price has been released and the $2000plus prices seem to be coming from people on the Internet that have been flaming the ACR from the get go (AKA: the people that are mad they went and spent too much on a SCAR). We might just know the truth in 6-days!

45reloader
01-13-2010, 04:52
Everyone is taking a totally universal weapon and making so many versions that parts swapping and replacement will be a thing of the past.
This AR fever is going to destroy the platform.

ForTehNguyen
01-13-2010, 16:12
im going to take a stab and guess the basic configuration at $1700, enhanced version at $2000

Quiet
01-14-2010, 15:53
AFAIK...
Magpul was saying a MSRP of $1700 back in 2007.
Magpul then sold it to Bushmaster and Bushmaster would not comment on a MSRP, so everyone assumed it would be the same MSRP that Magpul was saying before the transition.
Remington then took over the project from Bushmaster.
The internet people who leaked recent Remington ACR videos, are also the people saying Bushmaster/Remington is saying it will have a MSRP of $2300.

No one will know for sure until the 2010 SHOT Show.

Constructor
01-14-2010, 17:36
Remington got this from Magpul, they didn't go out on a limb. Magpul designed it, did all the leg work, got the public really excited about it, did lots of testing and R&D and then knowing they were far to small to actually build the thing on a large scale sold it to Bushmaster which is owned by Cerberus who also owns Remington who they transferred it to.

Just FYI

I believe it has been completely re-engineered since magpul sold it.
I heard last week only 120 had been built.

space_weazel
01-14-2010, 21:11
I believe it has been completely re-engineered since magpul sold it.
I heard last week only 120 had been built.

That's nice, they still didn't do any of the leg work and never went out on a limb. Which was the thrust of my post.

COLOSHOOTR
01-15-2010, 13:39
I believe it has been completely re-engineered since magpul sold it.
I heard last week only 120 had been built.

Thats not really true.... Sure they made several modifications but the basic design is still the same. The charging handle was moved, gas system made tool-less and the quick barrel change was modified along with some other enhancements. Overall the majority of the rifle seems to still be what was originally designed by magpul. Also, Magpul has stated that they have been and still are heavily involved in the design and production of the Current ACR's with Remington (Mil /LE) and Bushmaster (Civi).

Rumor is now that the price on the enhanced version (Folding Stock & Rails) is probably going to be between $2500-$3000 coming from DSG Arms who is taking pre-orders on the rifles. They are saying thats not firm pricing and will not have a set price till the 19th when they will recieve the official info. They did say that their guess on the prices was after talks with the mfr. I'm guessing that it will be between $2000-$2500 for the standard version then.

If so I'm not getting one because i'm not willing to spend more then 2k for it.... Unless it cleans it self, loads it's own ammo and loads it's own mags. Otherwise I can buy 2 Ar's for that with goodies to make them do the same job

Constructor
01-15-2010, 17:55
Thats not really true.... Sure they made several modifications but the basic design is still the same. The charging handle was moved, gas system made tool-less and the quick barrel change was modified along with some other enhancements. Overall the majority of the rifle seems to still be what was originally designed by magpul. Also, Magpul has stated that they have been and still are heavily involved in the design and production of the Current ACR's with Remington (Mil /LE) and Bushmaster (Civi).

Rumor is now that the price on the enhanced version (Folding Stock & Rails) is probably going to be between $2500-$3000 coming from DSG Arms who is taking pre-orders on the rifles. They are saying thats not firm pricing and will not have a set price till the 19th when they will recieve the official info. They did say that their guess on the prices was after talks with the mfr. I'm guessing that it will be between $2000-$2500 for the standard version then.

If so I'm not getting one because i'm not willing to spend more then 2k for it.... Unless it cleans it self, loads it's own ammo and loads it's own mags. Otherwise I can buy 2 Ar's for that with goodies to make them do the same job

As I heard it the 4 part rail system inside was flexing and causing issues when Magpul had it and has been re-engineered. sure it's still a carrier running on rails not in a tube like an AR and it still looks similar, still has a piston system almost identical to a Armalite AR180.

Also heard today Robinson Arms has brought suit against Magpul, Remington and Bushmaster due to patent infringement.

I have a SCAR, just waiting on the ACR so I can run them side by side through the same drills for a month for a fair comparison.

COLOSHOOTR
01-16-2010, 03:07
As I heard it the 4 part rail system inside was flexing and causing issues when Magpul had it and has been re-engineered. sure it's still a carrier running on rails not in a tube like an AR and it still looks similar, still has a piston system almost identical to a Armalite AR180.

Also heard today Robinson Arms has brought suit against Magpul, Remington and Bushmaster due to patent infringement.

I have a SCAR, just waiting on the ACR so I can run them side by side through the same drills for a month for a fair comparison.

Makes sense..... From what I heard it was still the steel on steel rails didn't know that they changed much of that.

That being said I didn't get much info on it when I actually got to see and touch the ACR at the IACP conference in Denver. If you were not a big shot with the power to buy a lot of rifles the the Remington Reps were less then helpful with you. They wouldn't talk unless asked a question and even then kept the answers short.

Quiet
01-16-2010, 08:54
Also heard today Robinson Arms has brought suit against Magpul, Remington and Bushmaster due to patent infringement.

Lawsuit was filed recently over trademark infringments.

Robinson Arms XCR vs Remington ACR, Bushmaster ACR, Magpul Masada, Magpul Massoud and Rock River Arms LAR-8.


Breaking News: Federal Lawsuit Claims Remington ACR (Adaptive Combat Rifle) Violates RDMI (Alex Robinson of Robinson Armament) Patent (http://www.defensereview.com/breaking-news-federal-lawsuit-filed-claiming-remington-acr-infringes-on-rdmi-alex-robinson-patent/)

On January 4th, 2010, DefenseReview published a quick piece on the new “leaked” Remington ACR (Adaptive Combat Rifle) video. Well, something rather interesting has since occurred involving the ACR. According to RFC Express, a website covering “US Federal District Court, Recently Filed Cases”, a company designated as “RMDI, LLC” is listed as the Plaintiff in a federal lawsuit (Civil Action No. 2:10-cv-00029-DAK) vs. Defendant(s) Remington Arms Company, Inc., Bushmaster Firearms, Rock River Arms, and MagPul Industries. The “COMPLAINT FOR PATENT INFRINGEMENT” federal lawsuit was, according to RFC Express, just filed on Thursday, January 14, 2010 (yesterday) in a Utah District Court. Remington and Bushmaster are part of the Freedom Group, which is owned by Cerberus Capital Management, L.P.

RMDI, LLC is a limited liability company owned by Alex Robinson of Robinson Armament (ROBARM), maker of the XCR Modular Weapon System tactical rifle series. DefenseReview has been informed by Alex Robinson that the lawsuit involves a patent that Mr. Robinson has on an “ambidextrous magazine release (a.k.a. ambidextrous mag release) and bolt hold-open”, and that the firearms involved in the alleged patent infringement/violation are the Remington ACR (previously known as the Bushmaster ACR) 5.56mm NATO (5.5645mm NATO)/.223 Rem. tactical rifle, MagPul Masada ACWS (from which the ACR was derived and developed), Rock River Arms (RRA) LAR-8 7.62mm NATO (7.62mm NATO)/..308 Win. rifle, and the MagPul Massoud 7.62mm NATO/.308 Win. rifle. The official lawsuit document confirms this.

The official lawsuit document, which Defense Review has purchased and downloaded from the RFC Express website, states that the lawsuit is over U.S. Patent No. 7,596,900 (the “’900 patent”) entitled “Multi-Caliber Ambidextrously Controllable Firearm,” issued on October 6, 2009 to inventors Alexander J. Robinson, Darin G. Nebeker, and Jon C. Holway. It further states that “Defendants are liable for infringement of the ’900 Patent pursuant to 35 U.S.C. 271.”

The lawsuit document continues:

“Upon information and belief, one or more of the Defendants’ acts of infringement
were made or will be made with knowledge of the ’900 Patent. Such acts constitute willful
infringement and make this case exceptional pursuant to 35 U.S.C. 284 and 285 and entitle RMDI to enhanced damages and reasonable attorneys’ fees.”

There’s a Chinese saying “May you live in interesting times.” This situation should help make for an interesting SHOT Show 2010. Speaking of SHOT, you’ll be able to find Alex Robinson/Robinson Armament at the Serbu Firearms booth (#20034). Serbu makes the Serbu BFG-50 single-shot bolt-action .50 BMG rifle, Serbu BFG-50A mag-fed semi-auto .50 BMG tactical rifle, and Serbu SUPER-SHORTY 12-gauge tactical/combat shotgun.

humanguerrilla
01-16-2010, 10:11
.........

G31Steve
01-16-2010, 10:49
Do want...if it ever comes out.

COLOSHOOTR
01-16-2010, 13:21
Do want...if it ever comes out.

I don't think there is a doubt about it coming out. They are sending out information to dealers now and allowing them to start Pre-Orders so I'm sure that it will be released on Tuesday.

The new Bushmaster catalog has an ACR section that someone on arfcom was nice enough to post. It lists the civi version of the ACR as 8.3lbs (16.5 barrel with no mag). The barrel is also a 1/9 twist so if you like shooting heavier self defense loads thats a dissapointment. Also with the rumored price tag of $2500-3000 from dealers taking the pre-orders (who are actually admitting thats not a set price, rather a best guess from talks with reps.)

It being that heavy, being a 1/9 twist and that expensive are you sure you still want one?

Heck just a week ago I was all up in the hype and had money set aside for one. Now with each bit of info that comes out I want one less and less. I guess I'll be building a lightweight upper and buying a new Glock with my ACR fund. I'll still have enough left over to take the lady out to a fancy dinner too.

ForTehNguyen
01-16-2010, 19:33
the weight figures are kinda strange, the enhanced (rail handguard and collapsible stock) version weighs the same as the basic (plastic handguard and fixed stock). Remington still shows the ACR as 7 lbs and 1:7 twists on their website. Hopefully remington offers their barrels for sale for the people that want 1:7. 1:9 isnt a deal breaker for me personally.

Quiet
01-17-2010, 07:42
http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo239/CruelHandOFate/ACR_Features.jpg

humanguerrilla
01-18-2010, 09:37
Bushmaster announcement newsletter
http://view.exacttarget.com/?j=fe5516767d6c037e7611&m=fefa1c71766d04&ls=fded10767365037a7d127171&l=fe881c787363047b71&s=fde715727d6703747c1c707c&jb=ffcf14&ju=fe351672776c057f741676

AC45ACP
01-20-2010, 14:20
Well @ $1700-2000 I'll buy one.. After the Dust settles..

Fireman1291
01-20-2010, 16:34
lolololol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB0Pu-rvFjs

glock22357
01-21-2010, 08:51
lolololol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB0Pu-rvFjs

I just sent this in an e-mail to Bushmaster customer service.:rofl:

Chuck TX
01-21-2010, 11:19
I just sent this in an e-mail to Bushmaster customer service.:rofl:

Classic. I'll bet they're getting more than a few emails. :rofl:

Krigloch
01-21-2010, 11:43
Oh man. That video is amazing. Haha

humanguerrilla
01-21-2010, 16:41
Wowed at the $2685 sticker for the basic version. Feeling dirty agreeing with Hitler.

Gallium
01-21-2010, 17:54
Wowed at the $2685 sticker for the basic version. Feeling dirty agreeing with Hitler.


Is this the real deal? If so I missed it... :wow::crying::faint:

Chuck TX
01-21-2010, 21:21
Is this the real deal? If so I missed it... :wow::crying::faint:

Seems to be the truth. The dealer price is $2100. I doubt there will be any dealers selling it below cost.

Gallium
01-21-2010, 21:39
Seems to be the truth. The dealer price is $2100. I doubt there will be any dealers selling it below cost.


Does it come with a $700 cashier's check? :faint::faint::faint::faint:

AK_Stick
01-21-2010, 22:27
FWIW....

Since this is the Black Rifle Forum, dedicated to the M16/AR15/M4 family of rifles, a certain ammount of "Who cares?", "It's not as good as my M4gery!" and "There's nothing wrong with the DI system." and so on is expected.

But the truth is that our Military SHOULD move on to a new rifle soon. The operating systems of rifles such as the SCAR, ACR and XCR are the future, just like the M16 was back in the 1950s. Wether purchasing hundreds of thousands of new rifles is financially viable right now is another question, but there are better choices out there.


The problem, is currently there's nothing on the market better than the AR-15.

Chuck TX
01-21-2010, 22:38
Does it come with a $700 cashier's check? :faint::faint::faint::faint:

No, but you get to pay sales tax on it. Even if you order it from out-of-state directly from Bushwacker. Are they doin' it rite, or what? :rofl:

humanguerrilla
01-22-2010, 06:51
Is this the real deal? If so I missed it... :wow::crying::faint:

Yup, Bushmaster's published MSRP is $2685 on the basic version
http://www.bushmaster.com/acr/#/ConfigurationsTab

QNman
01-22-2010, 07:53
Yup, Bushmaster's published MSRP is $2685 on the basic version
http://www.bushmaster.com/acr/#/ConfigurationsTab

Note: For $2700, you don't even get a collapsible stock (Base Version). For that, you have to step up to "enhanced" for $3000

I've been patiently waiting for one of these for two f-ing years. Since that time, everyone and their dog has come out with one piston system or another. At $3k, they can keep it.

I suspected when Magpul involved Bushmaster this would ultimately be bad for Magpul. Not because I have anything against Bushy (I own one), just had a feeling...

Fireman1291
01-22-2010, 08:11
We should all email this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB0Pu-rvFjs

To bushmaster/cerbus/remington/magpul. Like the above poster.

glock22357
01-22-2010, 10:06
The problem, is currently there's nothing on the market better than the AR-15.

Any of the three would be better in the long run. Yes, there would be teething problems, but then think back to the early days of the m-16.

A cleaner operating system would aid our forces in the field. There can be no logical argument against it other than cost, which is THE argument against replacing all U.S. rifles.

AK_Stick
01-22-2010, 19:25
Any of the three would be better in the long run. Yes, there would be teething problems, but then think back to the early days of the m-16.

A cleaner operating system would aid our forces in the field. There can be no logical argument against it other than cost, which is THE argument against replacing all U.S. rifles.


:rofl:

You speak awfully highly of a rifle thats not even been produced in mass yet.

Secondly, the SCAR has only just recently gone to testing, and field reports about it are already coming back with mixed reviews.

The XCR is a joke, and not even worthy of being mentioned in the league of the first two.


So you have one gun, thats still in the trial phase, one thats just starting to be produced, and hasn't even reached 500 guns yet, and you think we're on to something that could replace the greatest military general issue rifle in almost 50 years?

:rofl:

The ACR or SCAR may end up replacing the M-16/M4 family of weapons, but neither is ready to do so now. Secondly, neither currently has a significant improvement over the AR's design, so why would we pay millions, to get a gun thats only slightly better? Like the much vaunted 416, a slight increase in performance just doesn't justify the millions it would cost.

PlasticGuy
01-23-2010, 08:05
I just got back from SHOT, and people were universally disgusted with the pricing of the ACR. Nobody wants it anymore. The model that everybody would want (folding/collapsable stock and railed forend) has an MSRP of over $3060. What a load of crap! That, plus they used a heavy M4 profile barrel with a 1:9 twist and no chrome lining. That crappy barrel bumped the weight up to 8.2 pounds, and the thing handles like a brick now. Unless they do a complete redesign and drop the price by 25%, they simply will not sell. I didn't see anybody trying to place an order at all.

alaskacop556
01-23-2010, 08:18
I remember attending the 08 shot show in Vegas and going to magpul's booth to get a peek at their new rifle...only to be told that they gave the rights to BM...knew it was going to be a big mistake then and did a "taps" salute to the rifle design. Had they kept with production, or sold the rights to a company with better quality control, we might have seen the rifle (that we all were hoping for) made.

glock22357
01-25-2010, 11:19
So you have one gun, thats still in the trial phase, one thats just starting to be produced, and hasn't even reached 500 guns yet, and you think we're on to something that could replace the greatest military general issue rifle in almost 50 years?

:rofl:

The ACR or SCAR may end up replacing the M-16/M4 family of weapons, but neither is ready to do so now. Secondly, neither currently has a significant improvement over the AR's design, so why would we pay millions, to get a gun thats only slightly better? Like the much vaunted 416, a slight increase in performance just doesn't justify the millions it would cost.


Jeze dude.....I like my M&P15T, but I can accept that there are better rifles out there. The SCAR or the ACR (let's set aside the XCR) are better than the M16 family of rifles. They run cooler and cleaner and require less intensive cleaning to stay running properly. If I was in the Military, I would rather take the hours currently used in cleaning and maintaining my M16/M4, and dedicate them to other useful tasks. I have read several times here and at AR15.com about the number of hours our troops spend keeping their rifles clean (to make sure they'll work when they need them) and it's a stupid ammount of time.

Cleaning my rifle after a trip to the range is at least an hour of time, and I'm not playing in the sand where the cleaning/maintenance issues would be of more importance and require more time. I would love a rifle that runs cooler, doesn't get as dirty, and is easier to clean, ESPECIALLY if my life depended on it.

I get that you absolutely love the M16/M4 family of ARs, and therfore probably can't be objective on this topic. However, that design is almost 60 years old, and there are better options out there. And as I said before, the real issue is the cost.

AK_Stick
01-25-2010, 13:11
Jeze dude.....I like my M&P15T, but I can accept that there are better rifles out there. The SCAR or the ACR (let's set aside the XCR) are better than the M16 family of rifles. They run cooler and cleaner and require less intensive cleaning to stay running properly. If I was in the Military, I would rather take the hours currently used in cleaning and maintaining my M16/M4, and dedicate them to other useful tasks. I have read several times here and at AR15.com about the number of hours our troops spend keeping their rifles clean (to make sure they'll work when they need them) and it's a stupid ammount of time.

Cleaning my rifle after a trip to the range is at least an hour of time, and I'm not playing in the sand where the cleaning/maintenance issues would be of more importance and require more time. I would love a rifle that runs cooler, doesn't get as dirty, and is easier to clean, ESPECIALLY if my life depended on it.

I get that you absolutely love the M16/M4 family of ARs, and therfore probably can't be objective on this topic. However, that design is almost 60 years old, and there are better options out there. And as I said before, the real issue is the cost.

The problem with your assumption, is that the ACR, has never been tested at all, the SCAR has only been in the field for a few months. Yet people are trying to claim its the next best thing. We've already seen field reports come back about it having issues.

Secondly, you're making several common mistakes here. A piston gun, does not run any cooler than a DI gun. The CHAMBER is cooler, but the gun and operating system get just as hot. Thats why you can literally run a AK till the hand guards catch on fire. Because its no cooler.

And then, where do we get this it takes hours to keep a weapon clean mantra that so many people keep repeating? I've been to Iraq, it didn't take me hours to keep my M-16 running. It took no more than a few minutes a day. Whats more, even if you switch to a SCAR or ACR, you're still going to be spending that same amount of time cleaning. Do you think just because my troops get a new rifle that is more reliable, I'm suddenly going to let them slack on maintenance? Didn't think so.

I'd be happy as hell if a system came out that could replace the M-4/M-16. But the truth is, there just isn't a gun thats significantly better than the AR system. Different maybe, but not better.

PlasticGuy
01-25-2010, 18:38
...A piston gun, does not run any cooler than a DI gun. The CHAMBER is cooler, but the gun and operating system get just as hot. Thats why you can literally run a AK till the hand guards catch on fire. Because its no cooler...

I'd be happy as hell if a system came out that could replace the M-4/M-16. But the truth is, there just isn't a gun thats significantly better than the AR system. Different maybe, but not better.
I agree with much of your post. Yes, I prefer a battle tested weapon. At least you know what its flaws are, and can use techniques/tactics to minimize them. I'm no fan of the AR15, but at least I know what its strengths and weaknesses are.

However, I disagree with your concept of "running cooler". The point isn't to keep the barrel cooler. The point is to keep the heat and fouling away from your action, both to keep it firing longer between cleanings and to prolong the life of the parts. The piston does that.

You say there are some weapons that you consider at least equal to the AR15 platform. What are they?

AK_Stick
01-25-2010, 20:13
I agree with much of your post. Yes, I prefer a battle tested weapon. At least you know what its flaws are, and can use techniques/tactics to minimize them. I'm no fan of the AR15, but at least I know what its strengths and weaknesses are.

However, I disagree with your concept of "running cooler". The point isn't to keep the barrel cooler. The point is to keep the heat and fouling away from your action, both to keep it firing longer between cleanings and to prolong the life of the parts. The piston does that.

You say there are some weapons that you consider at least equal to the AR15 platform. What are they?

Unless you weld your piston, then your out of action for good. I've had that happen with an AK on the range and heard of POF's doing it during classes. Its also been noted to happen with the M-249 during prolonged firing at cyclic.

However, I consider the AUG, FNC, FAMAS, and G-36 to be excellent weapons. I've fired all of them, and come away impressed. I think they each have their own issues that I'm not a fan of, but at the same time, there are things with the M-16/M-4 I dislike as well. I think the SCAR has some merit, but we'll see how it fares. Word coming back from the field is mostly positive, but I've heard a few guys aren't so happy. The M416 also looked good, but after testing, it developed some issues.

I also like the AK family. I think the M-16/4 is a better weapon for a soldier, but I don't think they're bad weapons.