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robin303
01-04-2010, 19:15
Went to the range today. My results were mixed.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
With the 700X Powder:<o:p></o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Berry</st1:place></st1:State>ís 115 FMJ at 3.1 10 rnds all failed<o:p></o:p>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">Berry</st1:State></st1:place>ís 115 FMJ at 3.5 10 rnds all fired<o:p></o:p>
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Berry</st1:place></st1:State>ís 115 FMJ at 4.0 10 rnds 2 FTE<o:p></o:p>
Hornady 115 HP/XTP 3.1 all failed <o:p></o:p>
Speer 147 TMJ FN 3.6 all failed<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
With AutoComp:<o:p></o:p>
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Berry</st1:place></st1:State>ís 115 FMJ at 5.0 10 rnds 2 FTE<o:p></o:p>
Hornady 115 HP/XTP 5.0 10 rnds all fired
Speer 147 TMJ FN 2.8 all fired<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
OK the ones that failed should I bump them up at 0.3 or more at a time.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Is there a trick on Hollow Points and Flat Nose. For an example I used my Fiocchi 124 XTPHP as a gage which was an average 1.075. I have never found any info on HPís or FN.<o:p></o:p>

Hydraulicman
01-04-2010, 19:23
what manual are you using?

did you use your barrel as a gage to make sure your rounds chamber well?

Get youself a manual

Your rounds are very short. This makes me think your loading without a manual or your crimp is not quite right. or your not resizing correctly.

steve4102
01-04-2010, 19:26
More data will help. 9MM I assume? Not familiar with a Berry Full Metal Jacket. What do you mean by "failed". What is your COAL? Last, did you crimp and how much?

smokey45
01-04-2010, 19:30
Need more information, "Failed" means nothing to me.
s45

Hydraulicman
01-04-2010, 19:37
failed.

FTF? check your oal and crimp or bullet profile
FTE? Check your charge?
Fail to fire? seat your primers fully

argy1182
01-04-2010, 19:44
Sounds like your rounds are not the correct length. Check the size against factory rounds you know function well using calipers. I would do a little more research before putting anymore of these rounds through your weapon.

As others have mentioned, what does 'fail' mean?

I just started reloading 45acp and haven't had a hiccup.

MrVvrroomm
01-04-2010, 20:06
Is there a trick on Hollow Points and Flat Nose. For an example I used my Fiocchi 124 XTPHP as a gage which was an average 1.075. I have never found any info on HPís or FN.
Seriously, do NOT touch your reloading press until you have purchased and read the ABC's of reloading. After you read that cover to cover, then go out and buy yourself some reloading manuals, Speer 14 comes to mind.

Forget any reloading recipes you read on the internet, buy and USE some reliable references manuals.

Boxerglocker
01-04-2010, 20:26
what manual are you using?

did you use your barrel as a gage to make sure your rounds chamber well?

Get youself a manual

Your rounds are very short. This makes me think your loading without a manual or your crimp is not quite right. or your not resizing correctly.


Seriously, do NOT touch your reloading press until you have purchased and read the ABC's of reloading. After you read that cover to cover, then go out and buy yourself some reloading manuals, Speer 14 comes to mind.

Forget any reloading recipes you read on the internet, buy and USE some reliable references manuals.


I have to agree... doesn't sound like you have a true grasp on the info needed at this point.:whistling:

Colorado4Wheel
01-04-2010, 21:30
Went to the range today. My results were mixed.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
With the 700X Powder:<o:p></o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Berry</st1:place></st1:State>ís 115 FMJ at 3.1 10 rnds all failed<o:p></o:p>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">Berry</st1:State></st1:place>ís 115 FMJ at 3.5 10 rnds all fired<o:p></o:p>
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Berry</st1:place></st1:State>ís 115 FMJ at 4.0 10 rnds 2 FTE<o:p></o:p>
Hornady 115 HP/XTP 3.1 all failed <o:p></o:p>
Speer 147 TMJ FN 3.6 all failed<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
With AutoComp:<o:p></o:p>
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Berry</st1:place></st1:State>ís 115 FMJ at 5.0 10 rnds 2 FTE<o:p></o:p>
Hornady 115 HP/XTP 5.0 10 rnds all fired
Speer 147 TMJ FN 2.8 all fired<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
OK the ones that failed should I bump them up at 0.3 or more at a time.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Is there a trick on Hollow Points and Flat Nose. For an example I used my Fiocchi 124 XTPHP as a gage which was an average 1.075. I have never found any info on HPís or FN.<o:p></o:p>

Most of those that "failed" (whatever that means) are starting loads. If by failed you mean the failed to cycle the gun then it's no suprise. Mid level loads at the correct OAL are going to be your best bet. Welcome to the world of reloading. Your mistakes so far include.

1) Buying powder that is not well suited for your needs
2) Not reading a load manual so that you can understand how to interpet the data that has been given to you by me and others.
3) Rushing into buying stuff local rather then getting stuff that is better but will take a little time to arrive.

So now you have 800X and Autocomp. Two really slow powders. Get those loads up to mid level loads at the proper length. Be sure your crimp and other things are right. Be very careful you have the charge settled and throwing consistent before you start loading your completed rounds.

GioaJack
01-04-2010, 21:47
Most of those that "failed" (whatever that means) are starting loads. If by failed you mean the failed to cycle the gun then it's no suprise. Mid level loads at the correct OAL are going to be your best bet. Welcome to the world of reloading. Your mistakes so far include.

1) Buying powder that is not well suited for your needs
2) Not reading a load manual so that you can understand how to interpet the data that has been given to you by me and others.
3) Rushing into buying stuff local rather then getting stuff that is better but will take a little time to arrive.

So now you have 800X and Autocomp. Two really slow powders. Get those loads up to mid level loads at the proper length. Be sure your crimp and other things are right. Be very careful you have the charge settled and throwing consistent before you start loading your completed rounds.


Excellent post... very well stated. Listen to him Robin, at this moment he's making a lot of sense... unlike tomorrow morning when he's going shooting in sub-freezing temperatures. :supergrin:

(You'd save gas money by just climbing in your freezer and cranking off a few mags at the chocolate-chip ice cream. :whistling:

Jack

Little Joe
01-04-2010, 21:53
Blasphemy!!! You'll earn yourself 40 lashes for treating chocolate-chip ice cream that way. You heretic. :shocked:


LJ

Excellent post... very well stated. Listen to him Robin, at this moment he's making a lot of sense... unlike tomorrow morning when he's going shooting in sub-freezing temperatures. :supergrin:

(You'd save gas money by just climbing in your freezer and cranking off a few mags at the chocolate-chip ice cream. :whistling:

Jack

robin303
01-05-2010, 00:45
OK I have the Lyman book the web and you guys. I used the book and loaded the suggested starting grain on both powders of AutoComp and 700X. When I said failed I guess I should have said failed to eject. I painstakingly measured the powder on each round and used my calipers to measure each round. Any round that was not in .03 of 1.169 I set aside. As for crimping I’m only using half of what they said to do. I tested each round in my barrel. I’m buying powder that is in my Lyman book and I should get another reloading manual this week. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
So what I’m going to do is:<o:p></o:p>
Go to mid level loads with the powder.<o:p></o:p>
The rounds that worked fine add .03.<o:p></o:p>
Crimp more.<o:p></o:p>
Buy chocolate-chip ice cream.<o:p></o:p>
Shoot guns in the freezer.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Actually I was pleased with the results. Definitely a learning curve I’m going through.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Thanks guys.<o:p></o:p>

dudel
01-05-2010, 03:00
OK I have the Lyman book the web and you guys. I used the book and loaded the suggested starting grain on both powders of AutoComp and 700X. When I said failed I guess I should have said failed to eject. I painstakingly measured the powder on each round and used my calipers to measure each round. Any round that was not in .03 of 1.169 I set aside. As for crimping Iím only using half of what they said to do. I tested each round in my barrel. Iím buying powder that is in my Lyman book and I should get another reloading manual this week. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
So what Iím going to do is:<o:p></o:p>
Go to mid level loads with the powder.<o:p></o:p>
The rounds that worked fine add .03.<o:p></o:p>
Crimp more.<o:p></o:p>
Buy chocolate-chip ice cream.<o:p></o:p>
Shoot guns in the freezer.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Actually I was pleased with the results. Definitely a learning curve Iím going through.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Thanks guys.<o:p></o:p>

Ok. that helps a bit.

Let's take the AutoComp, since that seemed to work best of the two. Two FTE. Could be caused by several things. Since all but two worked, and you were carefull with the powder weighing, I'm going to guess you limp wristed the two FTE. A common problem with Glocks and new shooters. A loose wrist absorbes some of the recoil and prevents the gun from cycling properly. You might want to bump the loads up a bit. I generally work up .1gr at at time. Since you have a load that is working most of the time, try 10 rounds with .1gr more of AutoComp, 10 with .2gr more and 10 with .3 grains more. Now you are looking to improve accuracy. Keep an eye out for pressure signs as you work up the loads.

No real trick to any style of bullet. I have a diagram that helps me set COL for a projectile that I have no hard data for. It's on another computer, I'll try and upload it later.

If you had FTF (failure to feed), then there would be other things to look at.

If the rounds went in and out of the barrel correctly (and you said you tested them in the barrel), then you have enough crimp. Leave that alone for now and minimize your variable. If you are using a progressive press, leave the dies where they are. If it's a single stage, lock the die rings. You want to keep the dies from changing, and changing the ammo.

Sounds like you are on your way.

dudel
01-05-2010, 03:56
I have never found any info on HPís or FN.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Here's the picture I mentioned. It's for a 45ACp, but works for 9mm as they both headspace on the case mouth.

HTH

don

ron59
01-05-2010, 06:18
As for crimping Iím only using half of what they said to do.

Not even sure what this means?

For 9mm, an EASY way to set the crimp, requires several passes and a bullet puller.

Go ahead and "build" a round. Then pull the bullet out. You want to set the crimp so tight that it leaves a small indentation in the bullet. THEN, back off the crimp very slowly until there is NO indentation. The crimp is exactly correct then. You've removed ALL the belling, but not crimping so much that the brass is "grabbing" the bullet.

Boxerglocker
01-05-2010, 10:32
Not even sure what this means?

For 9mm, an EASY way to set the crimp, requires several passes and a bullet puller.

Go ahead and "build" a round. Then pull the bullet out. You want to set the crimp so tight that it leaves a small indentation in the bullet. THEN, back off the crimp very slowly until there is NO indentation. The crimp is exactly correct then. You've removed ALL the belling, but not crimping so much that the brass is "grabbing" the bullet.


Ron your method though will get the job done. However is slow and tedious and if you always use the exact same bullet and brass fine... but with mixed brass of slightly different wall thickness...won't work very well.

Measure the crimp with a caliper and be done with the bullet puller...
Bullet diameter plus two times the average case wall thickness is .355 + (2 X 0.012) = 0.379 inch is no crimp at all.... set your dies to the 0.376-0.378 range and be done with it already. Crimp is measured at the top mouth of the case. Easy and if you do it on the over size side with your first round can usually get it dialed in in two dummy rounds max.

ron59
01-05-2010, 11:09
if you always use the exact same bullet and brass fine... but with mixed brass of slightly different wall thickness...won't work very well.

Regardless of HOW the crimp is set/measured... I'd think this would be a problem regardless? How does YOUR method of determining & setting the crimp avoid the issue of using mixed brass? My guess is... it DOESN'T, so it's a moot question and I would wonder why you would bother mentioning it.


Measure the crimp with a caliper and be done with the bullet puller...
Bullet diameter plus two times the average case wall thickness is .355 + (2 X 0.012) = 0.379 inch is no crimp at all.... set your dies to the 0.376-0.378 range and be done with it already. Crimp is measured at the top mouth of the case. Easy and if you do it on the over size side with your first round can usually get it dialed in in two dummy rounds max.

I can see that measuring would get you there SLIGHTLY quicker... when I was setting mine up I had JUST seen somewhere where it mentioned the method of "setting too tight, then backing off". I guess I didn't know what the proper measurement was (at the time) and just used the empirical method.

The instructions have you run the die down until it touches shellplate and then going slightly further down. I think it only took me two tries to "back off" properly, so at most I adjusted one more time than you. I don't see pulling the bullet as a big job, and gave me the peace of mind it was where I wanted it.

jaybirdjtt
01-05-2010, 11:49
Hey Robin......Hook 'em Horns! UT/69 plus I liked the helicopter pics as I am a retired Navy helicopter pilot.

My data shows one load using 700x w/ 115 grn Rem. 4.7 grains and it is not a max load. I show no loads for Auto Comp with 115 grn. Auto Comp is new and I think it is mostly used with open category guns and "hot" loads.

I've always liked the Speer and Hornady manuals. It takes a little time to get loads dialed in. I am kinda old school and use what I know like Bullseye and Unique, but have tried Vihtavouri N series, 320, 330, 340. Bullseye and Unique have been around for decades and there is alot of data on them plus they are relatively cheap, faster burning powders.

Invest in a bullet puller, a case length gauge and calipers like the plastic RCBS. And get a notebook and record everything even primers and case brands! For range loads I typically stick with what seems to work......reliable and satisfactorily accurate. For pistols I shoot alot, 9mm and 45 ACP, that is what works for me. There I just try to replicate decent factory range ammo that go bang every time and no FTEs. For hunting loads, targets, rifles I find myself tinkering, looking for accuracy and maybe max power. Not everyone reloads for the same reasons but with the ammo I use alot I am into "cheap, easy and reliable."

Some ranges offer courses on handloading and if you are just getting started it would be a good investment. My local indoor range offers a series for $80 and you get to call the instructor later on if you have questions. You will easily save that much by not buying what you don't need, especially these days with the cost of primers, powder, etc.!

Lastly, Glocks, per the mfgr., are designed to work with factory spec or NATO spec loads. To me that means that "starting" loads may experience FTE, especially with the lighter bullets.

Colorado4Wheel
01-05-2010, 12:05
Any round that was not in .03 of 1.169 I set aside.


I am in a hurry so this is just going to be brief.

Read your recipes again. 1.169 is MAX size but nearly no recipe calls for that length. If you want a middle of the ground length 1.130 works all the time in my guns with a FMJ/RN profile. I load Flat Points the same. I work them up on a chrono. You don't want to go shorter then the recipe recommends but longer is OK but will reduce pressure and not be a mid level load as a result. Read and learn about this some more if you don't understand what I am saying.

Crimp has been covered. Remove the bell. A little more or less is not going to ruin things in my experiance. Glock chambers are sloppy.

chris in va
01-05-2010, 14:18
Agree, you really shouldn't be loading a 115gr FMJ at 1.169oal.

Case in point, my truncated cone boolits only chamber in my CZ at 1.04oal. I run 4.0 gr of 231 under that. My Lyman manual doesn't list a 115gr FMJ for some reason, but the JHP has 700x at 3.1gr as a minimum charge. It's no wonder they didn't function. Your recoil spring isn't set up to cycle a mild round like that.

Colorado4Wheel
01-05-2010, 14:54
What is WWB in OAL. I think it's 1.160 ish. But I am not sure. Chris, I think your CZ is a oddity. 1.04 is very short in my view.

ron59
01-05-2010, 15:23
What is WWB in OAL. I think it's 1.160 ish. But I am not sure. Chris, I think your CZ is a oddity. 1.04 is very short in my view.

WWB is indeed 1.160". I have one sitting on my reloading shelf I use for comparisons. I measured several of them, and their OAL is VERY consistent... 1.160".

As I don't reload "pointy" bullets (either 147gr truncated cone or 124 gr hollow point), I load at either 1.135" or 1.130", correspondingly.

But yeah.... 1.04 sounds awfully short in that context.

Boxerglocker
01-05-2010, 16:46
Regardless of HOW the crimp is set/measured... I'd think this would be a problem regardless? How does YOUR method of determining & setting the crimp avoid the issue of using mixed brass? My guess is... it DOESN'T, so it's a moot question and I would wonder why you would bother mentioning it.

The point is it does by giving a numerical range to account for the different thickness of brass, in most cases either .011 or .012 wall thickness. A target crimp of .378 will almost always insure that there is just a slight crimp.

Hows does your method of setting and pulling bullets account for it? If you were to set your dies using all .012 brass (given a target crimp of 0.378) and then load a 0.011 piece what would the result be? :whistling:

All I am saying is your mention of a "small indentation on the bullet" is a matter of judgement based on experiance, what is your definition of "small"' 0.001 or 0.0015 or 0.002??? A numerical value IS ALWAYS constant, period. Regardless of the brass used or even the bullet as in loading an LRN for instance which is 0.356 minimum diameter.

Peace :wavey:

thorn137
01-05-2010, 16:47
WWB is indeed 1.160". I have one sitting on my reloading shelf I use for comparisons. I measured several of them, and their OAL is VERY consistent... 1.160".

Strange you should mention consistency. When I first began reloading, I took 3 rounds of WWB and measured - all 3 were 1.169. I still use one as a quick reference.

So - they are relatively consistent. (Which is one reason i got tired of WWB).

btw - agreed on the OP's OAL. 1.04 for RN is BY FAR shorter than I've ever gone. I've never used those 2 powders though, so can't comment on the recipes vs his experience.

thorn

jdavionic
01-05-2010, 17:04
As others have already said, your OAL of 1.04 seems short to me. For my 124 gr HP reloads, I target 1.125 OAL. I use a different powder for my 9mm. I go with the Titegroup. Typically I reload anywhere from 3.9 to 4.1 gr of Titegroup...usually 4.1 gr. I can make the PF requirements for USPSA with 3.9 gr though. I just prefer 4.1.

I've shot these loads in matches using a Beretta 92, G34, and XDSC. All guns cycled fine with the loads.

ilgunguygt
01-05-2010, 17:23
If it means anything to you, I can give you my experience with 700x in pistol loading. I load for 45acp, 357/38, and 45 colt. I use 700x mostly in my 45s. No matter which gun 700x burns its best at the upper end of the range. Max charge for the 230lrn in a 45acp is listed at 5.0 by IMR. This is loaded to a length of 1.200. I usually load mine out to 1.265 for reliability in all my guns. I also load right at 5.0gr. I have taken this load at that length over max by .4 grains. I do not recommend it, there was no advantage. If you dont load it to the upper range it tends to be dirty, badly.

ron59
01-05-2010, 20:14
All I am saying is your mention of a "small indentation on the bullet" is a matter of judgement based on experiance, [edited]


The point of saying "small indentation" wasn't in a measurement sort of way, but simply saying that you want enough crimp to actually see that it's too tight (by leaving the mark on the bullet). Then back off until you see NO indentation == just right.

However... your further explanations have convinced me. I DO like the numerical value, just when I set it up, I didn't have that knowledge. Also... to be honest even when this was discussed in the previous thread, I didn't pick up on where you were going. When you said "set your die to: xxx value", I wasn't following that the case diameter (at the neck) should be measured for that value (duh). It certainly makes sense though.

Colorado4Wheel
01-05-2010, 20:50
The reality is that unless you trim everything to exactly the same length your crimp will wander a little from piece to piece. The reality is it doesn't matter that much. I set mine up to apply zero crimp. But it will vary with brass length. As a example of how much it might not matter I had a piece of 10mm slip past the crimp station as I was fiddling with the dies. It never got crimped basically. So thinking I am smart enough, I can find that piece easily with my case gauge. I case gauge everything in the bin. Nothing, cant find it, they all pass easily. I start thinking thats impossible. So I do it again on purpose. I flare a case like normal, seat a bullet, pull it out to inspect it. Looking at the case you can barely see the flare. It passes the case gauge easily. So for me with this bullet and case I could set my taper crimp die to do almost nothing and it would work just fine.

Boxerglocker
01-05-2010, 21:26
The point of saying "small indentation" wasn't in a measurement sort of way, but simply saying that you want enough crimp to actually see that it's too tight (by leaving the mark on the bullet). Then back off until you see NO indentation == just right.

However... your further explanations have convinced me. I DO like the numerical value, just when I set it up, I didn't have that knowledge. Also... to be honest even when this was discussed in the previous thread, I didn't pick up on where you were going. When you said "set your die to: xxx value", I wasn't following that the case diameter (at the neck) should be measured for that value (duh). It certainly makes sense though.

:cool: We are cool Brother, I sensed you didn't quite get my meaning. Thus tried my best to elaborate.

GioaJack
01-05-2010, 21:30
It occurs to me that reloading is a lot like having a first child... everything has to be perfect.

Cloth diapers because you don't want a chemically saturated man made product to touch your child's skin.

Several reloads of pacifiers in case the child spits one on the ground a fresh, sterile one can be immediately shoved into the chamber.

Mozart softly played while the little bundle of joy sleeps in hopes that his/her non-existent creative juices can be stimulated.

And the list goes on ad nauseam.

By the time the second or third child make an appearance the routine has changed ever so slightly.

They cheapest disposable diapers that can be found at Costco are bought by the truck load.

If the young tike happens to sit out the cute little 'binky', even if it happens to land in a pile of the family pet's poo, it's wiped off on a sleeve and shoved back into the crying little pie hole... usually accompanied by the statement... 'quit crying or I'll give you something to cry about'.

Mozart in the nursery is now replaced by Toby Keith, Black Sabbath, Kid Rock, The Rolling Stones, (pick your genre and age group), blaring at an ear shattering level from the living room sound system.

Again, the list goes on ad nauseam.

The progression of reloading is very similar... from it has to be perfect to... hell, it went off, I have all my fingers and I hit the target. Here, hold my beer, I want to try that with two hands. :whistling:

Jack

Bob2223
01-06-2010, 07:38
It occurs to me that reloading is a lot like having a first child... everything has to be perfect.

The progression of reloading is very similar... from it has to be perfect to... hell, it went off, I have all my fingers and I hit the target. Here, hold my beer, I want to try that with two hands. :whistling:

Jack


:supergrin:

Bob

robin303
01-06-2010, 14:47
:rofl:Jack, You crack me up. :supergrin:

hoffy
01-06-2010, 15:24
If you are worried about your crimp being strong enough next time you go to the range shoot all rounds in a mag except the last one and measure it. They can set back in the mag while firing. Also you should take a round and chamber it a few times and check for set back. You really have to torque a round in he crimper to keep it from headspacing. I have an old Star Universal Progressive 45acp that has a roll crmip die and it has worked fine for tens of thousands of rounds,Used to belong to a bulls eye shooter who was an engineer, I would prefer a taper crimp, but the 9/16 dies are the problem. Re mixed brass, I use it for plinking and if I feel that one didn't get a good crimp , I set it aside and crimp them when I am done. Accuracy for plinking will not be effected that much(if you are using mixed brass you have a big variable right there) . This is more true in revolvers than autos, but the hotter the load, the heavier the crimp should be(setback and consistent burn for the slower powders). I am a long time reloader and I am with the guy that likes bullseye and uniquie, and 231 . For really warm loads in the 10mm I have had good luck with Power Pistol. A good resource is LoadData.com, it costs, but it is worth it, though I still like to have a bunch of manuals I can lay out in front of me to compare. you used to be able to call Sierra but I dont know if they offer that anymore or not. :whistling: