Range of a 9mm Carbine? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Glocktalkfan
01-05-2010, 11:46
Hi all,

to which distance can a 9 mm Carbine as a Beretta CX 4 Storm deliver effective hits?
Anybody have facts about penetration power at lets say 150 yards of this caliber?

Thanks

GTF

Shortimer
01-05-2010, 12:22
I don't know for sure but IMHO I stink that's pushing the limits for accuracy & energy. I would think about 100 yds would be the maxium effective range. With that said I wouldn't want anyone shooting at me at 150 yds. I would rather be alive & wrong than dead & right.

TylerDurden
01-05-2010, 12:33
The 9mm is a pretty efficient cartridge, it doesn't gain much (200 fps at the most) going from a pistol to a carbine.

It would be pretty easy to stay on target at 100 yards, but the trajectory is such that you would need to be pretty careful about where you zero.
IIRC, out of an old Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm we were hitting about 8 inches low at 100 yards when sighted in for 50 yards.

CAcop
01-05-2010, 13:20
Our MP5s in 10mm were easy to hit the target at 50 yards. We never shot them farther than that but I suspect 150 wouldn't be too hard. I thik it would have to do more with bullet drop and theoretical accuracy of that gun.

Bilbo Bagins
01-05-2010, 13:29
The 9mm is a pretty efficient cartridge, it doesn't gain much (200 fps at the most) going from a pistol to a carbine.

It would be pretty easy to stay on target at 100 yards, but the trajectory is such that you would need to be pretty careful about where you zero.
IIRC, out of an old Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm we were hitting about 8 inches low at 100 yards when sighted in for 50 yards.

You sighted in near the top of the arc, try 25 yards next time and you will be dead on at 100 yards.

After 100 yard a 9mm round will start dropping fast. I say the effective range is maxed at 150 yards, even thoug at 200 yards the round will still have the power of a .380 round coming out of the muzzle of a pistol.

http://www.mouseguns.com/sub2000/ballist.gif

PlasticGuy
01-05-2010, 16:01
That chart pretty well confirms what I'm getting with my Colt 9mm AR-15. I sighted it in at 25 and am pretty close at 100. I can hold on the head out to nearly 200 and still hit center mass. Accuracy and power loss past 200 yards make hitting at longer ranges unrealistic. As far as terminal effectiveness, it should give typical 9mm performance out to 100 yards. It drops into the .380 power spectrum past that, and down from there. It would still be lethal at longer ranges, but I think you're immediate incapacitations would decrease in frequency pretty fast past 100 yards, and definitely past 200 yards.

The short version is that I zero at 100 yards and have faith in the terminal effects to that point. I can stretch it to almost 200 and still feel it's worth spending the ammo. Past that I'd be wishing I had something more powerful.

TylerDurden
01-05-2010, 16:16
I still don't really see the point of pistol caliber carbines. My friend's Camp Carbine was fun to shoot, but no more so than a good .22 and more expensive to feed.

I guess they would make good suppressor hosts, but as fighting guns they're too big to conceal and not powerful enough to replace a rifle.

CharlestonG26
01-05-2010, 16:28
I still don't really see the point of pistol caliber carbines. My friend's Camp Carbine was fun to shoot, but no more so than a good .22 and more expensive to feed.

I guess they would make good suppressor hosts, but as fighting guns they're too big to conceal and not powerful enough to replace a rifle.

+1...unless it has a "full auto" switch...I don't see much value in a pistol caliber carbine. Personally, I prefer a 5.56mm M4gery.

PlasticGuy
01-05-2010, 16:32
I still don't really see the point of pistol caliber carbines. My friend's Camp Carbine was fun to shoot, but no more so than a good .22 and more expensive to feed.

I guess they would make good suppressor hosts, but as fighting guns they're too big to conceal and not powerful enough to replace a rifle.
For the most part I'd agree with you, but there is a niche for them.

First, they can be practiced with at indoor ranges. Second (as you mentioned), they can be suppressed more effectively. Third, they are much more efficient as SBR's if your state allows them. Fourth, they allow you to practice with 5.56 type recoil for half the price. Finally, it gives you a long gun that is still terminally effective, but without introducing a weapon that will punch through the body armor of other good guys (making it a good option for team tactics).

USMC03Grunt
01-05-2010, 17:31
Several years ago when I was farming in ND, I bought an UZI for a skunk gun in the tractor. Seeing how it had a sight for 200 meters and that ND is rifleman country with ranges that easily go out to 200 meters and WAY beyond, I had to try it on a B-27 silhouette. I had no problems making body shots at 200 meters with 115 and 124 grain rounds. However, comma, pause for effect, I look at a 9mm carbine at 200 meters much the same as a 5.56mm at 500 meters. Can you make a hit? Sure, easy. However, will it do much damage to the target at that range? Well, it will probably poke a hole but how much stopping power it's going to retain is another question.
As to what the need for a PCC might be? Well, as I already pointed out, even with a 16" barrel, an UZI with a collapsing stock make for a pretty compact package that will fit in some pretty tight spots that a full size rifle or even a carbine will not. I think that in a SHTF scenario, it's lack of recoil, muzzle flash and muzzle blast makes it a better choice for those that are recoil and blast sensitive than a rifle caliber carbine yet still have better punch than a .22LR rifle. For night shooting, the lack of muzzle flash really is another advantage over any rifle I have tried short of a .22 rifle but again, you are looking at far better stopping power as well. Recently I also added a Sterling carbine and like the UZI, it has it's place. Would either of them be my first, second or even third choice for a grab-and-go gun? Nope, but I wouldn't discount their utility either.

SeeJohnLikeSig&Glock
01-05-2010, 17:55
Speaking of the cx4 below...
At 50 meters and less, its accuracy is very good. If I do my part, it does its part. At 100 meters the wheels fall off the bus for accuracy. Its not just simple bullet drop in my experience. Groups widen pretty consistently with several different loads. I can make head shots easy at 50meters, but at 100 it's body shots and much larger groups.

As for penetrating ability, I think Bilbo's chart shows that at 150 meters with +P rounds, it can still be an o.k. stopper.

As for "whats the use?" comments...
Its a straight up plinker. Its a fun gun to shoot. It should cost a lot less though. In my opinion it shoudnt go for 700.00, more like 500.00

bac1023
01-05-2010, 18:14
I'd say 100 yards is about as far as one should push a 9mm carbine.

BSG62
01-05-2010, 18:29
I could hit the target @ 200 yards with my 9mm CX4, but it involved aiming quite a bit above the point of impact.
100 yards was pretty consistent, and accurate.

EL COLONEL
01-05-2010, 18:43
75 yards...............:whistling:

Cole125
01-05-2010, 19:32
As has been said the practical range is about 100 yards before the bullet starts to drop.

desertfox
01-05-2010, 22:15
I no longer have the M16, but did keep a few of the uppers to go one my SBRs. one of which is my intergally suppressed 9mm. about 12.5" from the receiver to the end of the suppressor. very quite with 147grn subsonic. still really quite with 115 grn ammo and accurate out to 100 yards. I did a carbine course with it. itnstructor did not totally like the idea I was using a pistol caliber, but did admit by the end of the class that it was a pretty good setup (except for being pistol caliber).........

FLIPPER 348
01-05-2010, 22:21
As has been said the practical range is about 100 yards before the bullet starts to drop.


The bullet starts to drop right away, as they all do.

F=MA

MrMurphy
01-05-2010, 22:56
I've seen a 9mm Hipoint carbine on a windy day shot at a paper plate make every other round hit. At 150 yards off a bench.

Most 9's can hit that far out but as USMC03 said, they won't be doing a hell of a lot when they arrive. Better than no hit at all, but i'd rather have a real rifle caliber.

-gunut-
01-05-2010, 23:00
Well the last 124gr +P ammo I bought said it dropped to around 1,200fps at 100 yards. Add a couple hundred out of the muzzle with a longer barrel and I am guessing it would be effective at around 200, though 100-150 would probably be a better usable range.

FLIPPER 348
01-05-2010, 23:43
Y'all should blast a few milk jugs full of water and/or some wet phone books out at 100m & 150m and let us know the results.

I've blasted a jackrabbit or two out at 150 or so with my .357 Timberwolf rifle and they went clean through. 110g JHPs

nipperwolf
01-06-2010, 04:03
Y'all should blast a few milk jugs full of water and/or some wet phone books out at 100m & 150m and let us know the results.

I've blasted a jackrabbit or two out at 150 or so with my .357 Timberwolf rifle and they went clean through. 110g JHPs

Pssst, you can't compare 9mm and .357 out of a carbine. ;)

Bilbo Bagins
01-06-2010, 07:52
Several years ago when I was farming in ND, I bought an UZI for a skunk gun in the tractor.

Damn there must be some nasty skunks in ND to warrant getting an UZI :rofl:

USMC03Grunt
01-06-2010, 13:07
Damn there must be some nasty skunks in ND to warrant getting an UZI :rofl:

Let me rephrase that, it's an UZI carbine, not the really fun UZI with the short barrel and giggle switch. Besides, it's not so much a case of nasty skunk in ND, it's just that I found something that 9mm round will actually stop!:tongueout:

ranger56528
01-06-2010, 13:43
I have fun with my 250.00 9mm.most of my shooting is under 75 yards with no trouble.
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa31/ranger56528/Guns.jpg

Diesel_Bomber
01-06-2010, 13:49
I like the idea of a PCC for ammo/mag versatility. Thumbing through my Jane's Guns, most of the MG's are 9mm. Kel Tec's Sub2k is a mighty small package and accepts Glock mags.

That said, 7.62x39 is just as cheap($240 for 1k rounds delivered to your door) as 9mm and hits a hell of a lot harder at those distances. A decent used SKS is still cheaper than a Sub2k.

10isnotenough
04-17-2012, 19:49
I know this is a very old thread but I have been considering the effective range of a 9mm carbine as well. The question about effective range really comes down to deciding what the limiting factor is: trajectory or energy. Although I am sure you can learn to hit targets way out there with 9mm, if we are talking about "combat" situations, you don't want to be thinking about how to lob in a shot too much when you are under fire. So it would seem trajectory limits us to about 100 to 125 yards as a practical limit.

On the other hand, I think we tend to underestimate the "effectiveness" of the 9mm for long range engagement shooting. Truth is "stopping power" is going to be pretty inadequate at long range if we are talking about it in terms of what we usually consider when we are at arms length and we need to stop the attacker RIGHT NOW. However, it takes a pretty mean person to get hit through and through with a 9mm bullet and then try to continue to assault you from a distance of 100 yards. You don't tend to get up and advance at a target 100 meters away when you are bleeding out from a pass through shot. So I think you need to redefine your definition of stopping power based upon the scenario you are considering.

Now, there are lots of stories about soldiers who have been gravely wounded in battle and have got up and charged the enemy from a great distance, or continued to fight with their long range weapons. But those are the soldiers we honor as war heroes, not your average thug that us civilians will be dealing with during the SHTF scenario we tend to think about.

Regards,

10isnotenough

gatorboy
04-18-2012, 22:06
I still don't really see the point of pistol caliber carbines. My friend's Camp Carbine was fun to shoot, but no more so than a good .22 and more expensive to feed.

I guess they would make good suppressor hosts, but as fighting guns they're too big to conceal and not powerful enough to replace a rifle.

If it does'nt share mags/ammo with your carry pistol I agree. If it does, you've got a longer sight radius and 200-300 extra FPS from a steadier platform. It will never replace a real rifle but a real rifle will never take Glock mags.

m2hmghb
04-18-2012, 23:49
The bullet starts to drop right away, as they all do.

F=MA

Actually a projectile will rise from the muzzle before starting to drop.

I'd keep a pistol carbine to around 100 meters as well.

BTW the 5.56 is used in A'Stan at 800 meters and making kills at that range, not just 500 meters.

ArmoryDoc
04-19-2012, 06:36
Actually a projectile will rise from the muzzle before starting to drop.

I'd keep a pistol carbine to around 100 meters as well.

BTW the 5.56 is used in A'Stan at 800 meters and making kills at that range, not just 500 meters.

NEVER does a round rise from the boreline. Never.

JFrame
04-19-2012, 06:54
Interesting discussion -- I'm glad it got resurrected for those of us who missed it the first time around... :cool:

After 100 yard a 9mm round will start dropping fast. I say the effective range is maxed at 150 yards, even thoug at 200 yards the round will still have the power of a .380 round coming out of the muzzle of a pistol.

I'd never heard of it put in those terms before -- kind'a gives me a renewed appreciation and respect for the 9mm Parabellum...

For the most part I'd agree with you, but there is a niche for them.

First, they can be practiced with at indoor ranges. Second (as you mentioned), they can be suppressed more effectively. Third, they are much more efficient as SBR's if your state allows them. Fourth, they allow you to practice with 5.56 type recoil for half the price. Finally, it gives you a long gun that is still terminally effective, but without introducing a weapon that will punch through the body armor of other good guys (making it a good option for team tactics).

Reason #1 is why I would consider getting a pistol-caliber carbine (well -- I already have a Winchester Trapper in .357, but I meant a semi automatic like the Beretta CX4). Any rifle-caliber carbine I get would basically sit untouched in my safe for years at a time. A pistol-caliber carbine can accompany me to the indoor range 10 minutes away, where I can punch paper (with relatively inexpensive ammo) and at least keep my skills honed for close-in work...


.

Bill Keith
04-19-2012, 07:42
Pssst, you can't compare 9mm and .357 out of a carbine. ;)

Oh yes you can! I happen to like pistol caliber carbines for the simple fact that they are fun to shoot. I have shot and compared my Kel-Tec Sub 2000 in 9mm against my Marlin 1894C in .357. The 357 had more legs and gained more Muzzle velocity than the 9mm. It wasn't a big deal, but I decided to carry the Marlin in the car trunk with Buffalo Bore ammo that I know packs a wallop.
The Marlin 45 Camp Carbine is one of the coolest guns to shoot. It can keep a ragged hole at 50-60 yards with a red dot scope. YMMV:wavey:

svtpwnz
04-19-2012, 08:03
I have hit targets very effectivly @ 100yds with my Colt 6450. I personally wouldn't trust the weapon effectivly stopping a BG beyond those ranges. Hickok45 hits metal targets in his yard well beyond 100yds with a G26, so who really knows.

NeverMore1701
04-19-2012, 09:02
Mine were quite accurate out to about 200 yards, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on it's effectiveness at that range.

ronin.45
04-19-2012, 10:36
I consistently win 3-gun matches out to 200 yards with my RRA 9mm. It still hits steel with authority at that range. Obviously it drops more and has less energy at that range than a rifle, but it's still accurate and effective. As with any weapon you need to know it's capabilities and your capabilities with it.

Z71bill
04-19-2012, 11:10
NEVER does a round rise from the boreline. Never.

This is true - no doubt -

I think the confusion is caused because if you sight a rifle in at say 250 yards - and then shoot at a target 50 yards away - the gun shoots high.:cool:

In reality -the bullet does "rise" from the muzzle - because the gun is pointed UP - not because the bullet has some anti-gravity impact. This must confuse some. :dunno:

Z71bill
04-19-2012, 11:23
I have a HiPoint 40S&W carbine - I shoot it at the 200 yard range all the time - A man size target would not stand a chance -

If you play around a little bit - shoot a few rounds to determine how high you need to aim - you can hit a full size paper target pretty easy with a G19 out to 200 yards.

Boats
04-19-2012, 11:41
I have two PCC set ups: A Beretta CX4/PX4 9mm combo and a Marlin 1894C/Ruger KGP-141 combo in .357 Mag.

With a red dot on the Beretta and a tang sight on the Marlin, from a rest they can each reliably tag gongs at 200m.

Unsupported shots past 125m for the Beretta and 150m for the Marlin are unrealistic.

I like PCC's for all of the earlier mentioned reasons, plus the magazine compatibility between the Berettas. Since I live in an urban area I'd feel alright if all I had for SHTF was either the Berettas or the cowboy assault rifle.

ArmoryDoc
04-19-2012, 18:33
In reality -the bullet does "rise" from the muzzle - because the gun is pointed UP - not because the bullet has some anti-gravity impact. This must confuse some. :dunno:

Actually Bill, that isn't true either. I think what you're trying to say is the bullet doesn't fly parallel to the line of sight but because the barrel is pointed up, it "rises to the line of sight". Yes, the barrel is pointed up in comparison the sights being in line to the target.

The bullet comes straight out of the bore without rising "from the bore line" and gravity begins to immediately affect the bullet as soon as it leaves the barrel. :wavey:

Aceman
04-19-2012, 20:33
There is a LOT to love about Pistol cal carbines. If you can't think of the reasons, you probably won't agree or care.

A .357 I *might* think about a deer out to 150...

9mm, I'd *think* but don't know that < 100 is all she'd do well.

m2hmghb
04-19-2012, 22:30
Actually Bill, that isn't true either. I think what you're trying to say is the bullet doesn't fly parallel to the line of sight but because the barrel is pointed up, it "rises to the line of sight". Yes, the barrel is pointed up in comparison the sights being in line to the target.

The bullet comes straight out of the bore without rising "from the bore line" and gravity begins to immediately affect the bullet as soon as it leaves the barrel. :wavey:

You are correct, I was remembering the charts which show the rainbow trajectory, not remembering that the rainbow trajectory is in part due to the alignment of the barrel.

Berto
04-20-2012, 17:43
I'd be plenty happy with 9mm from a carbine out to 100-150yrds. Maybe not a rifle, but I can shoot it at any range I shoot my pistols and it has the accuracy and compactness to go anywhere. Besides, it looks cool.

Z71bill
04-20-2012, 20:23
Actually Bill, that isn't true either. I think what you're trying to say is the bullet doesn't fly parallel to the line of sight but because the barrel is pointed up, it "rises to the line of sight". Yes, the barrel is pointed up in comparison the sights being in line to the target.

The bullet comes straight out of the bore without rising "from the bore line" and gravity begins to immediately affect the bullet as soon as it leaves the barrel. :wavey:



?

"rise" means - cut me some slack. :wavey: