Trolling for loads a road to problems [Archive] - Glock Talk

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RLDS45S
01-05-2010, 19:32
Tell me how hard is it to reload some test loads and check them for accuracy, reliability and safety in your GUNS? Not at all.

No you DONT HAVE TO GET 10 different powders or primers or cases! I think of people trolling for loads as STUPID, UNSAFE, and LAZY reloaders! If you do not have time and inclination to do things right then buy factory ammo!

RustyFN
01-05-2010, 20:02
Plus what is a good combination in one persons gun won't necessarily be a good combination in someone Else's gun. That's the fun part of reloading is finding the right load for your gun. I agree RLDS it's not hard and not real time consumming either.

JesseCJC
01-05-2010, 20:26
some people are just overly anal about how they develop loads. Everyone is quick to blame a certain headstamp when more often then not it's the indian, not the arrows. A lot of the newer reloaders, myself included, are just hesitant to go out there and shoot off their loads without other people letting them know things will be ok, just don't get cocky or arrogant while on the bench. Hell, I thought about rigging up a pully system when I loaded up my first rifle rounds in fear of a KB lol

Colorado4Wheel
01-05-2010, 21:02
Tell me how hard is it to reload some test loads and check them for accuracy, reliability and safety in your GUNS? Not at all.

No you DONT HAVE TO GET 10 different powders or primers or cases! I think of people trolling for loads as STUPID, UNSAFE, and LAZY reloaders! If you do not have time and inclination to do things right then buy factory ammo!

Freak is that you?

Bones507
01-05-2010, 21:03
Hell, I thought about rigging up a pully system when I loaded up my first rifle rounds in fear of a KB lol

Well i didnt have that thought but when i took my first reloads out to the rifle range and was about to set the first one off, i had thoughts of the bolt slamming thru the lugs and imbedding itself in my forehead, lol. I think anyone who says they werent a bit "CONCERNED" when they fired their first reloads is how should i put it ? "Fibbing"? :rofl:

jdavionic
01-05-2010, 21:08
Hell, I thought about rigging up a pully system when I loaded up my first rifle rounds in fear of a KB lol

Just wait until you get into building your own rifles :supergrin:

GioaJack
01-05-2010, 21:10
Wanna take the worry out of shooting your first rifle reloads? Use an old black powder shooter's trick.

When we build a new black powder barrel we dump three times the heaviest anticipated charge down the barrel, top it off with a patched round ball, tie the barrel to a used car tire laying flat on the ground, attach a string to the trigger, back off a safe distance and let 'er rip.

Great fun... unless the barrel blows up. Come to think of it... that's great fun too!

Jack

JesseCJC
01-05-2010, 21:16
Just wait until you get into building your own rifles :supergrin:
Hah, both of my black rifles are "home built" using maybe 5-6 different manufacturers parts. That was no big deal to me. Seeing a thread about KBs and what it did to the rifle scared me a whole hell of a lot more than firing my own and first built black rifle.

RustyFN
01-05-2010, 21:19
I thought about rigging up a pully system when I loaded up my first rifle rounds in fear of a KB lol

If I remember right I think it was Jack that said Ex-wives were good for load testing. :rofl: I remember when I shot my first reloads I aimed my gun at the target then turned my head, closed my eyes and pulled the trigger.

jdavionic
01-05-2010, 21:29
If I remember right I think it was Jack that said Ex-wives were good for load testing. :rofl: I remember when I shot my first reloads I aimed my gun at the target then turned my head, closed my eyes and pulled the trigger.

LOL...my first AR build wasn't too unnerving. My first AK build was a little unnerving since I made the receiver from a flat. The worst was an Enfield that I refinished. It had the chamber area with pitting. I brought it to 2 gunsmiths after refinishing to have it inspected before firing it. Even after they both said it was fine, I still cringed and turned my head away on that first shot.

jdavionic
01-05-2010, 22:05
WRT the actual original post, people ask questions to learn from the mistakes and success of others. As I stated in a post elsewhere, <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
People take the information, see if it's consistent with their setup / expectations, make adjustments here & there, load test rounds, and fine tune from there. Anyone that takes load data, loads hundreds of rounds, and goes from there is a fool. And anyone who seriously thinks that a reloader is considering such actions is even more of a fool.
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“Go read the manual” is without a doubt a required start. But if you’ve been reloading for any short amount time, you will soon discover that manuals vary on the same load data for the same powder and bullets. So people ask for help. What’s the big deal? You can help them or ignore them. I opt for helping them.
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“Go see the powder manufacturer’s website for data” is always great advice and should be done. But anyone who has reloaded for a short amount of time will tell you that many manufacturers do not have data for all bullet weights / types. So people tend to look at the data that is there, ask questions to help fill in the gaps or gain confidence, load test loads, fire them, and refine as necessary. Again, what’s the big deal? You can help them or ignore them.
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Suppose everyone took an arrogant approach. Which is better – a reloader that makes their rounds for plinking or one that does so for competition shooting? For pistol, let’s be more arrogant…if you’re not a GM and a reloader, you don’t know squat and should shut your lazy mouth up.
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Point being, reloading is very much about sharing information. I agree people need to research on your own. But simply because someone asks which powder, what’s the difference between Wolf and CCI primers, is there a difference between loads for plated vs. lead bullets, which OAL works for your gun, what load do you use for 9mm 147 gr FMJ ….it doesn’t mean that folks need to jump their case, call them a troll, and tell ‘em to piss off. Inevitably, people need to be responsible in their approach to reloading. But asking questions is simply another way of doing your homework. For me, I say ‘no big deal’ and ‘feel free to ask questions’. If I can help, I will. Just don’t ask me which is better – AK or AR.<o:p></o:p>

OgenRwot
01-05-2010, 22:29
Glad to see I'm one of the targets of this thread (see post 17 here: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165659). My point was this, some people don't have a whole hell of a lot of time and money to go through the finite process of developing a perfect load from scratch. We come here to get a few ideas of where to start and go from there, that's what I do. I'm not looking for some magic recipe that will work in my gun. But thanks for taking the time to ***** about this in ANOTHER thread. The first one got locked and I'm pretty sure Freak's thread about leaving will too. This one is heading in that direction too. But yeah, thanks for quoting me :upeyes:

ETA:
By the way, this is why I don't like coming around here much anymore. People ***** way too much about this crap. There is so much drama here and FAR too many personal attacks over the most pointless crap ever.

Zombie Steve
01-05-2010, 22:56
Wish I'd trolled a little more... I probably could have saved myself a hundred bucks worth of powder, probably as much in bullets, brass...


On the other hand, I learned a lot by that trial and error.

As long as someone isn't short-cutting the development process or otherwise being unsafe, color me indifferent to the "trolling for a load" type thread. I'll give you my 2 cents if I know something from my experiences, probably won't post if I don't.

fredj338
01-05-2010, 23:20
Point being, reloading is very much about sharing information. I agree people need to research on your own.
I agree, & I am always willing to help, but there is an alarming number of newbs, probably do to the ammo shortage, that want to shortcut the process. Retention of knowledge is better if one does reading & practical application, not just plug & play. The more you study, the more you will learn & then be able to understand why book A loads are diff than book B, etc. Take that to the range for practical some expereince & it all comes together.
It's not baking a cake. If you muck it up, it will cost you at least a gun, maybe an eye or finger. While forums are great places for opinions & to pick the brains of those that have been there & done that, it's best to use it as just that, another level of your own personal experience. There are so many diff powder & bullet combos, I can see the advantage of asking for a place to start, but the guys that get me are the ones that think they can just ask for your fav load & then plug & play & hope it all works. Without cross referencing, that is a KB waiting to happen.

partsman
01-05-2010, 23:26
Well i didnt have that thought but when i took my first reloads out to the rifle range and was about to set the first one off, i had thoughts of the bolt slamming thru the lugs and imbedding itself in my forehead, lol. I think anyone who says they werent a bit "CONCERNED" when they fired their first reloads is how should i put it ? "Fibbing"? :rofl:
your not the only one i was scared ****less the first time i shot my 45/70 no 1 all i could picture was the block crushing my eye and take off the right side of my head.....

dudel
01-06-2010, 02:30
I agree, & I am always willing to help, but there is an alarming number of newbs, probably do to the ammo shortage, that want to shortcut the process. Retention of knowledge is better if one does reading & practical application, not just plug & play. The more you study, the more you will learn & then be able to understand why book A loads are diff than book B, etc. Take that to the range for practical some expereince & it all comes together. It's not baking a cake. If you muck it up, it will cost you at least a gun, maybe an eye or finger. While forums are great places for opinions & to pick the brains of those that have been there & done that, it's best to use it as just that, another level of your own personal experience. There are so many diff powder & bullet combos, I can see the advantage of asking for a place to start, but the guys that get me are the ones that think they can just ask for your fav load & then plug & play & hope it all works. Without cross referencing, that is a KB waiting to happen.

+1 Fred; but Darwin is never unemployed. He's busy cleaning the gene pool of lazy loaders. May take time. but he's ruthless.

GlockSupremacy
01-06-2010, 03:29
I feel sorry in advance for the next few people that ask for anything load related in the reloading forum.

I'll admit Ive asked for pet loads a few times. As a matter of fact i did recently for some .223 loads, and of all people freakshow and many others helped me out.

Stated something along the lines of tac burns cleaner than h335 and might be better for bullets heavier than 55grs. (which i plan on shooting, so i saved money by having one powder for .223)

Well i ended up buying tac and shot great groups from the AR.

Anyone that does not verify the charge of loads (in reloading manuals) is simply mad. Yet by asking my question here i ended up with a great shooting round, informed by experienced loaders.

My opinion is that the reloading forum is the most knowledgeable of all the forums on glocktalk. I'd hate to see it change.

If freakshow called me a dumbass, i might seriously look into my reloading practices before arguing with him. I guess im weird.

Take care guys, its very late im off to bed.

dudel
01-06-2010, 03:55
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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Point being, reloading is very much about sharing information. I agree people need to research on your own. But simply because someone asks which powder, what’s the difference between Wolf and CCI primers, is there a difference between loads for plated vs. lead bullets, which OAL works for your gun, what load do you use for 9mm 147 gr FMJ ….it doesn’t mean that folks need to jump their case, call them a troll, and tell ‘em to piss off. Inevitably, people need to be responsible in their approach to reloading. But asking questions is simply another way of doing your homework. For me, I say ‘no big deal’ and ‘feel free to ask questions’. If I can help, I will. Just don’t ask me which is better – AK or AR.<o:p></o:p>

I agree with your point. The issue, is those that won't do any research. As the OP mentioned so eloquently, "trolling for loads". Rusty is right, what shoots good in one gun won't necessarily shoot well in another. To your point of books and web sites, yes, load books and powder sites only give you a starting point; not the end point. Due to all the variables involved, that's all they can give you. Part of learning to reload is learning to work up a load. Learning to read pressure signs, learning the difference between a fast powder and a slow powder, between an empty case and a compressed load, between a light crimp, heavy crimp and a roll crimp, about case volume and powder density, about BC and COL, about understanding what the chrony tells you. Plus many other things. As with many things in life, the more you know, the more you find there is to learn.

As the OP said, if you don't want to take the time to learn, you won't be much of a reloader, in fact, you could be a danger to others on the range and yourself. Those people should just go and buy their ammo. It would be safer for everyone including the shooter.

It's like the shooting itself. I see some targets posted by newbs that make me want to cringe (8" groups at 15 feet -doing great - thought I'd share!). Got a new gun and sent lead downrange. No concept of safety, not to mention sight picture, setting zero, slinging up, breathing, etc. I'm sure much of our current shortage is/was caused by people who paniced, thought they needed a gun, fired off a few rounds, and will leave the gun in the original box in a drawer.

That's fine too; just don't think that makes you a shooter.

Dang, I need to learn to edit. End of diatribe.

shotgunred
01-06-2010, 06:16
It is what it is. Go over to enos site. On the reloading section the most often question is what is your favorite pet load.

Almost everyone over there is a competition shooter. There are a number of reasons for wanting to get to the best combo as quick as possible. As long as you seek several sources I don't see the harm in it. I switched powders in several calibers after reading about diffrent powders on here and enos. The switch has been for the better for what I am curently doing with my guns.

Kentucky Shooter
01-06-2010, 06:48
Tell me how hard is it to reload some test loads and check them for accuracy, reliability and safety in your GUNS? Not at all.

No you DONT HAVE TO GET 10 different powders or primers or cases! I think of people trolling for loads as STUPID, UNSAFE, and LAZY reloaders! If you do not have time and inclination to do things right then buy factory ammo!

I understand loads have to be tested in a persons own guns for function, reliability, and accuracy. Just because they work great for me, does not mean they will work the same for you. With that said, I see no harm in sharing ideas on what are classic and time proven loads and ideas---the ones that have consistently worked in a lot of peoples guns. The person should then take the starting point with such loads and develop and tweak themselves. To me, the sharing of such ideas and information should be pretty natural in the reloading section of a gun forum. There are exceptions to everything, but to me if a person is on here seeking information, asking questions, it shows they are trying to get more educated and knowledgable on the subject---at least giving them the benefit of the doubt, thats the way I take it.

steve4102
01-06-2010, 07:33
As the OP said, if you don't want to take the time to learn, you won't be much of a reloader, in fact, you could be a danger to others on the range and yourself. Those people should just go and buy their ammo. It would be safer for everyone including the shooter.

BUT, isn't asking questions and seeking advice part of any learning process??? What ever happened to "there are no stupid Questions, only stupid mistakes"?

You guys crack me up, Now that you are all full of years of experience and knowledge you claim the right to tell newcomers (as you guys were once) seeking guidance to Kiss Off and call them Dumb-ass, Lazy and Stupid. Nice!

PBKing
01-06-2010, 08:08
BUT, isn't asking questions and seeking advice part of any learning process??? What ever happened to "there are no stupid Questions, only stupid mistakes"?

You guys crack me up, Now that you are all full of years of experience and knowledge you claim the right to tell newcomers (as you guys were once) seeking guidance to Kiss Off and call them Dumb-ass, Lazy and Stupid. Nice!

There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.

I think a better analogy is the student asking the teacher for the answers to the questions on a test.
The teacher knows that just giving the answers does not help the student and only encourages slothfulness and discourages study. It is far, far better (for the student)to equip the student with the knowledge, resources and tools to help the student arrive at the correct answer on his own.

Funny, sound like a bunch of liberals that want something for nuttin. Be a man an do some work. You can then take pride in your effort and accomplishments. Pride in Workmanship and Skill....sure do miss those days.

Started Loading in 1984. I have been offering Handloading Classes for almost 10 years. I am always willing to help those who are willing to do the work required. I am still learning everyday.

ETA. I have had many employees over the years. I found it was much easier to hire 18-25 year olds. You didnt have to train them because

"THEY ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING".

Colorado4Wheel
01-06-2010, 08:26
When did sharing your favorite load for a caliber/gun become taboo? Seriously, thats nuts. If the end user doesn't cross check your load with something else thats his problem. Not sharing your pet loads in a reloading forum is going to be kinda boring.

PBKing
01-06-2010, 08:40
When did sharing your favorite load for a caliber/gun become taboo? Seriously, thats nuts. If the end user doesn't cross check your load with something else thats his problem. Not sharing your pet loads in a reloading forum is going to be kinda boring.

Boring? Try turning off the puter and work up some loads. If that is boring your in the wrong hobby.

Colorado4Wheel
01-06-2010, 08:48
Not sharing is about as boring a form of interaction I have come across. So basically

Someone asks a question

"Whats a good load for USPSA?"

Answer

"Use some titegroup and figure it out yourself"

NICE!

For example, I and others have shared their Solo 1000 loads many a time. It has resulted in a lot of very interesting discussion. Had that not happened it would have been a lot less interestiong around here.

PCJim
01-06-2010, 09:07
I think a better analogy is the student asking the teacher for the answers to the questions on a test.
The teacher knows that just giving the answers does not help the student and only encourages slothfulness and discourages study. It is far, far better (for the student)to equip the student with the knowledge, resources and tools to help the student arrive at the correct answer on his own.


This statement sums it up for me. As a rule, I don't give out loads anymore only because the impression I get from a lot of new posters is that they have not performed any reading / study on the art of reloading. If someone demonstrates that they have reloading knowledge to me, I'll give them the load data for every load I've ever developed.

I simply will not encourage shortcutting when I have no other opinion of the poster (this is the internet, remember?) and don't know if he is simply going to take a mid to high level load, misread the COL, and think his finished ammo will function fine in his weapons.

Colorado4Wheel
01-06-2010, 09:50
They are not "Answers" they are simply one solution to a process that has many solutions. It's pretty obvious to most people that ask "Whats a good load" that they realize that there are going to be more then one solution provided. Otherwise it would have been pretty easy for them to find the "answer" you describe.

The reality is for some reason at this time we have a couple people who don't want to share and also don't think it's a good idea to share pet loads. Thats fine. Don't do it. No one is going to notice that you didn't contribute. The majority is not going to care and they are going to share whatever they feel is appropriate. It's amazing a place like www.brianenos.com/forums can share these things and not get people all bent out of shape over it. No one is forcing you to share or even read the thread. Walk away from those threads if you don't like them. Post a little warning if you think thats appropriate. In the end you going to feel like a guy trying to hold back the tide. It's never going to happen. People are going to share because thats why they come here. To share what they learn. In some cases that going to include thier "pet load" for their guns.

Colorado4Wheel
01-06-2010, 09:52
Oh the Horror.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=98606&st=0&#entry1127110

rg1
01-06-2010, 09:53
Technically there is no need for a reloading forum at all. There's all kinds of data manuals available with how-to's provided. That said, there are a lot of new loaders with the jitters, hard to understand manuals on dies and equipment. Hundreds of combinations of bullets, brass, powder, primers. Plus reloaders with years of experience that haven't tested the latest powders or latest hi-tech bullets. I like to have forums where opinions are given and getting others experience with whatever. Like already mentioned, take advice given and compare with published data and do the testing yourself. THAT"S THE REASON for having a reloading forum!

ron59
01-06-2010, 10:07
Boring? Try turning off the puter and work up some loads. If that is boring your in the wrong hobby.

This attitude is pure rubbish.

I am fairly new to reloading (just started in July), but I'm already close to the 10,000 round mark. So I can't say, "I've been doing it for years, blah, blah". But I TOTALLY agree with Steve (Colorado4Wheel) in that people sharing their knowledge and experience is a GOOD thing.

Sure, I could load, chrono, load, chrono, test for accuracy, repeat, ad naseum... but I don't see that as a productive use of my time. I am NOT looking for anything near max loads, but merely functional loads that others use. I DO realize I will have to load & chrono some, but there's no sense doing that endlessly, when I can narrow in first with some good info (that I vet in other places).

If this was a forum where nothing but WILDCAT loads or rare/unusual cartridges were being discussed, then I might agree with you more. But in general, we have folks coming in loading for 9mm, .40, .45ACP... all of which have MORE than enough "standard recipes" with typical powders that can be shared with others.

If you don't *like* recipe-related questions/threads... stay out of them.

ron59
01-06-2010, 10:12
I simply will not encourage shortcutting when I have no other opinion of the poster (this is the internet, remember?) and don't know if he is simply going to take a mid to high level load, misread the COL, and think his finished ammo will function fine in his weapons.

If he's that incapable, then quoting STANDARD LOADS FROM THE MANUAL would get him in trouble. By that I mean... doing something like scanning and posting a page straight from Speer or Lyman.

Loading MINIMUM powder level with a overly short COL could cause problems, so what are you gonna do?

No, I disagree with that entire thought process.... "I'm not gonna help him because he MIGHT be an idiot and I will get blamed".
:dunno:

No thanks, I'll share my knowledge/experience when asked.

PBKing
01-06-2010, 10:20
I resent that comment. I help idiots all the time.
I love this forum. Talk about tough skinned, after 7 years lurking and 2 years posting I can now sharpen my straight edge on my forearm whilst posting.

ron59
01-06-2010, 11:03
I love this forum.

This forum has been an INVALUABLE resource for me. Without the ability to reload (which I researched heavily before I got into)... I would not be able to shoot/practice to the extent I do.

This current ammo situation IS going to drive newbies (such as I was (still am?)) in here, and we have to be cognizant of that. Certainly pointing them to the powder manufacturer's website is good. But saying things like "Yes, I DO have experience with Montana Gold 147gr bullets out of my G17 with xx powder and xx results) isn't going to be found in Lyman, Speers, or on any powder website.

The beauty of the internet (and this forum) is we can find explicit examples using our chosen components for loads...

PBKing
01-06-2010, 13:21
This forum has been an INVALUABLE resource for me. Without the ability to reload (which I researched heavily before I got into)... I would not be able to shoot/practice to the extent I do.

This current ammo situation IS going to drive newbies (such as I was (still am?)) in here, and we have to be cognizant of that. Certainly pointing them to the powder manufacturer's website is good. But saying things like "Yes, I DO have experience with Montana Gold 147gr bullets out of my G17 with xx powder and xx results) isn't going to be found in Lyman, Speers, or on any powder website.

The beauty of the internet (and this forum) is we can find explicit examples using our chosen components for loads...

Agreed....Lets build on that.

OK now I am on your side now what?
All this talk about love, sharing and tampons got me thinkin I better get checked for estrogen poisoning.
I dont know, is that stuff good for a Reloading/Handloading forum?

fredj338
01-06-2010, 13:30
BUT, isn't asking questions and seeking advice part of any learning process??? What ever happened to "there are no stupid Questions, only stupid mistakes"?

You guys crack me up, Now that you are all full of years of experience and knowledge you claim the right to tell newcomers (as you guys were once) seeking guidance to Kiss Off and call them Dumb-ass, Lazy and Stupid. Nice!

No, you are taking it a bit out of context. Asking for suggestions is fine, asking "is this load safe", how would I know? I don't have your gun to test them in. If the person asking has a reloading manual, he can verify the load being within load data specs.
I think it's just some of us have been reloading for so long we take many things for granted & you see so many newbs ask questions that we all learned for ourselves by reading a fricking manual or a loading ref like The ABCs. Again, there are no short cuts to safe reloading. Throw in the anonimity of the internet & some things can be taken the wrong way.
I can certainly give you fine, accurate, safe loading data for any handgun round going, but did you learn anything or just plug & play?:dunno: IF you used the middle avg. data from 2 manuals, you would be able to safely make up any handgun load. Will it be the best? Unlikely, that is what the testing is for. Not to mention the avg. shooter is not even capable of determining what is accurate or not. If you can't shoot 2" groups at 15yds from a bench, pretty tough to determine if ammo A is better than ammo B.

PBKing
01-06-2010, 13:48
Ironic how many data seekers today were doubting the economics of handloading not that long ago.
I am extremely grateful to the longtimers who mentored me and to the many of you who have unwittingly contributed to my continuing education. Thank You

JesseCJC
01-06-2010, 14:10
Last I checked, the load data manuals don't tell me if a load will be smokey using lead bullets, have too much muzzle flash using a certain powder, spill out of the top using a progressive press, and on and on. The manuals are great, but its the first hand experience and more detailed description of the process and more importantly the results I seek and often find here. Thanks to those who actually DO take the time to expand instead of a broken record of RTFM..

thorn137
01-06-2010, 16:30
Last I checked, the load data manuals don't tell me if a load will be smokey using lead bullets, have too much muzzle flash using a certain powder, spill out of the top using a progressive press, and on and on.

Bingo.

Not to try to put a price on safety, but I (for one) cannot afford to buy 7 manuals, and then 7 more next year when the revisions come out. I rely on the manuals I have, and mfg data on websites - but I also have to rely on the knowledge of others to factor into the mix.

A manual may tell me that 6gr of HS6 is fine for a FMJ 124gr bullet, but what if I've got a 115 Lead HP bullet? If there's no data in the manuals I have, nothing on the website - what OAL should I use? Should I buy 4 more manuals (that I can't check before buying, as they are shrinkwrapped), or hop in a forum and say "Hey, I'm trying to load THIS bullet with THIS charge, at 1.125 OAL. Is this safe?"

Hell, manuals even contradict each other. Sometimes you just want a REAL PERSON to ask for feedback. They might say "well, it's safe... but a poor recipe compared to these other 2 i've used." Or, "Yes, it's safe and reliable. But as you are brand new at reloading, that's a powder that you might not want to use, as the safety margins for weight/errors are very slim. Try this powder instead."

Sorry, I'll go this route before just loading up the round based on some guessing, use a low charge, and hope to hell nothing blows up in a bad way. Each gun is different, for sure, but I can absolutely say - with no reservation - that if someone asks "Is 15gr of HS6 a safe round for 9mm?" the answer is always going to be "No, it isn't".

thorn

steve4102
01-06-2010, 16:35
I think a better analogy is the student asking the teacher for the answers to the questions on a test.
The teacher knows that just giving the answers does not help the student and only encourages slothfulness and discourages study. It is far, far better (for the student)to equip the student with the knowledge, resources and tools to help the student arrive at the correct answer on his own.

More like the student asking for help, guidance and instruction during the class room time, before the test. Ya know, making sure he or she understands the material well enough to take that test.

I also doubt very much that the teacher would call the student a "dumb-ass" or "stupid" for asking if he or she could have the answers to the test. Lazy, yes, but a Dumb-ass NO.

Not only do comments like this make it hard for a new guy to "fit in" and feel welcome, it takes away from the friendly, helpful atmosphere of this forum. I think that the persons that use terms like this over the Internet would be a little more diplomatic in a face to face situation. I know I've said (written) some things on these forums that I am not proud of and that I would never say to a persons face.

So, if you think I'm a Dumb-ass or Lazy fine, maybe I am, but I'm still gunna ask if I need some help, answers or opinions. If you don't like the question, say so, but at least try and be a little less hostile about it.


.

LoadedTech
01-06-2010, 16:54
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by RLDS45S http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14485483#post14485483)
Tell me how hard is it to reload some test loads and check them for accuracy, reliability and safety in your GUNS? Not at all.

No you DONT HAVE TO GET 10 different powders or primers or cases! I think of people trolling for loads as STUPID, UNSAFE, and LAZY reloaders! If you do not have time and inclination to do things right then buy factory ammo!

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Freak is that you? <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

fredj338
01-06-2010, 17:45
I also doubt very much that the teacher would call the student a "dumb-ass" or "stupid" for asking if he or she could have the answers to the test. Lazy, yes, but a Dumb-ass NO.
It's pretty rare I see anyone here or on any other forum, call someone a "Dumbass" or "stupid" for asking a legit question. It really is a fast track world & it seems if you are much younger than 40, everyone wants it right now. That's what comes across to me on many threads regarding reloading. "I don't have a manual, I just go to the powder site", that sort of attitude is short cutting the learning process. Much like trying to take a test w/o reading the mat'l. the test will be on. Yeah, you might get by but did you learn anything?
Too many newbs are not even doing the basic reading & then buy gear & come onto the sites & ask how do I do this or that & all they have to do is read the book. After you do that bare minimum, then come onto the forums sites & ask for clarifications & ideas. I don't mind repeating myself, but people are getting so lazy they won't even try to use the search features!:dunno: That kind of attitude is what I would bet bothers many experienced reloaders. Really, "what size primer does the 40s&w use", just tells me you have done zero, nothing, nada in the way of learning your new hobby.

dudel
01-06-2010, 17:48
It is what it is. Go over to enos site. On the reloading section the most often question is what is your favorite pet load.

Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don

dudel
01-06-2010, 18:01
Really, "what size primer does the 40s&w use", just tells me you have done zero, nothing, nadd in the way of pursuing your new hobby.

Thank you Fred. Sort of like how many times have we seen the question: "What's the difference between a regular primer and a magnum primer?" How many newbs here, after reading that SP and SR where being interchanged, suggested to someone else that LP and LR could also be interchanged? (BTW, they cannot, they have different dimensions).

Like Fred, I'm more than willing to help out a newb; but they have to demonstrate that they've done at least a little bit of work. If they aren't willing to put anything into the hobby, then why should I put any effort into them. My hope when I help someone is that they will develop skills so that they can in turn help others. If I sense that that they are in it for themselves only, then they are on their own.

Colorado4Wheel
01-06-2010, 18:04
Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don

Uhm, seriously, NO. They are with out a doubt THE most helpful generous group of people I have ever meet. They will train you and teach you how to beat them. Thats been my experiance.

jdavionic
01-06-2010, 18:09
Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don

Yes...I would and have given out my favorite competition loads. Likewise I know very high level shooters and they readily do the same plus offer a LOT more advice to help others coming into the sport. I only have experience competing in USPSA. But the vast majority of the members that I've met and shot with have been great folks and very helpful.

Sure, there are the exceptions. And in either case, helping others or not helping others is not the real issue. If you don't want to help, fine...don't. If you do want help, great...help. But when someone goes out of their way to be rude to someone asking for help (and I certainly don't mean you...just speaking in general terms), I just don't get it. If you don't want to help, just ignore the post.

GioaJack
01-06-2010, 18:13
RATS... C4W beat me to it. Actually I've found that shooters tend to be very generous when it comes to competition, even going so far as to lend each other equipment. The only other sport I've been involved in where competitors are as generous is Rodeo. I let other guys, as other guys have let me use, ropes, spurs, bridles and even horses.

I used to be in a bowling league where the people were very helpful but I didn't do it for long... it occurred to me that sex would be a better hobby... the balls are lighter and you don't have to change your shoes. :whistling:

Jack

steve4102
01-06-2010, 18:16
It's pretty rare I see anyone here or on any other forum, call someone a "Dumbass" or "stupid" for asking a legit question. It really is a fast track world & if oyu are much younger than 40, everyone wants it right now. That's what comes across to me on amny threads regarding reloading. "I don't have a manual, I just go to the pwoder site", that sort of attitude is short cutting the learning process. Much like trying to take a test w/o reading the mat'l. the test will be on. Yeah, you might get by but did you learn anything?
Too many newbs are not even doing the basic reading & buy gear then come onto the sites & ask how do I do this or that & all they have to do is read the book. After you do that bare minimum, then come onto the forums sites & ask for clarifications & ideas. I don't mind repeating myself, but people are getting so lazy they won't even try to use the search features!:dunno: That kind of attitude is what I would bet bothers many experienced reloaders. Really, "what size primer does the 40s&w use", just tells me you have done zero, nothing, nadd in the way of pursuing your new hobby.

I agree, and when I respond to these types of questions I always try and emphasize the need to read the manuals first, after that Read it again, then ask questions. Many times my written words come across harder than I intended. Sometimes not hard enough. So, what do we do? We can ignore the post, help out with some solid helpful advice, or we can be rude/mean and discouraging to our new members to the reloading world. I choose to ignore or be helpful.

D. Manley
01-06-2010, 18:48
Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don

Well, on this one I have to differ. I do recognize the need for new reloaders to digest the basics rather than, just ask for directions as so many seem to do nowadays. I guess that's why I have a shelf of manuals dating back 4 decades and still accumulating. It's fairly easy to use published information, pick your components and crank out perfectly fine general purpose rounds. Over time, you can put forth the effort and develop whatever type of load that floats your boat without any input from anyone...I did it for a lot of years. That said, I see no problem sharing load information especially, data intended for a specific purpose. Although I've been at this a long time, several of the most accurate loads I have were actually developed by someone else.

Serious competitors are some of the most generous and helpful people you could hope for. Most of them willingly share not only their load data but helpful tips on technique, practice, efficiency and otherwise. When someone has a problem with a gun, load or anything shooting related these guys are first in line to offer their knowledge and assistance. Some (ala, Rob Leatham) even has helpful websites where specific questions are submitted and answered. The overwhelming majority of competitive shooters have a love of the sport and a genuine desire to do whatever possible to attract new shooters and help make the experience enjoyable. On a side note, we all owe them a great deal of gratitude for the advances their experimentation has led to in both firearms and reloading.

Load data is also shared by other notables other than competitors. The BullseyeL forum has a web page where noted Bullseye shooters list their best bullet/load combinations. Several custom gun & barrel makers (i.e., Wilson Combat) provide specific data for extracting the most from their products. Even military marksmanship team load data is available. Some of the accuracy loads printed is Shooting Sports USA have proved outstanding as have many other publications.

My point is, shared data is (or, should be) an adjunct to "the manuals"...not, a replacement. Perhaps equally as important for new reloaders to develop in addition to their loading skills is, the ability to discern hot air and hyperbole from a reasoned response. It IS the internet and the person sitting at the other keyboard may be a 12 year old with an imagination.

Kentucky Shooter
01-06-2010, 19:10
An honest question I have-----why does a reloading section exist here if not to share and discuss information? For some of you I would ask--What do you say is a "legitimate" use of the reloading forum? I still believe it is to share info----but trust me, any information I get from anyone, internet or otherwise, is going to be checked and double checked in one of my own manuals. I value my guns---they cost me too much and I can't afford to replace them. I value the health and safety of my friends and my own body too much to risk everyone being injured by flying shrapnel and gun parts. I don't mean necessarily we should all be giving specific loads right down to the fine print and everyone taking them at face value----but to throw out good/bad combinations of powder, bullets, etc....you have found seems to me to be the essence of what this forum is about.

fredj338
01-06-2010, 19:25
Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don
That part has never bothered me. I would & have even give a guy a gun & my ammo to shoot against me if his went to crap on him. It's always going to be the shooter, not the gear.:dunno:

RustyFN
01-06-2010, 19:49
An honest question I have-----why does a reloading section exist here if not to share and discuss information? For some of you I would ask--What do you say is a "legitimate" use of the reloading forum? I still believe it is to share info----

I couldn't agree more. The way I look at it is when someone asks "how many grains of Titegroup do I use with a 124 grain bullet in 9mm"? Wouldn't it be better to teach them how to work up a load and give them the skills to be able to do that on their own in the future rather than just tell them 4.2 grains and have them be lost if that doesn't work.

Bones507
01-06-2010, 19:51
Im all for helping anyone at anytime and often need help myself or just want to double check things so i never have a problem with any question.
As far as giving someone a specific load online, im not in favor of people not looking at loadbooks or going to a manufacturers website. Look at a loadbook first, then ask, then re-check what you have been told. Youre only asking for trouble if you dont. One reason i dont approve of giving specific loads is if i give or someone gives a load, how do i know the guy was 100% when he gave it to me ? Its always possible someone rushed and got a powder mixed up or read it wrong and who will suffer ? Then you got guys who instead of saying " I dont know", they will post something they THINK is right.
Brother, i aint never getting caught in that trap. Those are some reasons i dont approve of giving loads out, you can argue till the cows come home but theres just too much that can go wrong. Youre always better off if youre online and need a specific powder load, go to the mfg,s website or if youre that desperate check and recheck it as many places as you can.
And thats that !

PBKing
01-06-2010, 20:07
It's fairly easy to use published information, pick your components and crank out perfectly fine general purpose rounds. Over time, you can put forth the effort and develop whatever type of load that floats your boat without any input from anyone.Bullseye
Personally I think the more valuable information gleaned from sites has been other than numerical data.
To often lateley it is more like
Got my press, dies and pills comin. Man you guys are right, not much on the shelves. Bought a pound off Bullseye, thats all they had. I hate those #$%^%$ primers. crushed half cramin them babies in. Some guy online says he shoots up a lot but has no recipe for Bullseye. Oh I forgot I am going to relode 308. Anyone got any loads they would like to share. I cant seem to find any data. Oh and I will be using PP pills from Wideners.
Thanks

dudel
01-06-2010, 20:32
Bullseye
Personally I think the more valuable information gleaned from sites has been other than numerical data.
To often lateley it is more like

Actually, I think the post goes more like this " I got my LNL AP yesterday. What else do I need?" :supergrin:

Don

njl
01-06-2010, 20:32
How many different powders are there? Has anyone tried them all? The manuals don't tell you things like how clean a powder burns in a given load range, how much smoke it makes, what the recoil will be like, the volume of a charge, how well it meters in your powder system, whether a certain charge is likely to cycle a given semi-auto, etc.

As a relative noob to reloading, I was glad I was able to find info like the above on a couple of different powders suitable for the rounds I expect to reload. It helped me choose Universal Clays (mostly because it was reputed to be clean burning and its density is such that a 9mm double charge won't fit in a 9mm case) as a good/safe powder to start off with for 9mm.

dudel
01-06-2010, 20:40
How many different powders are there? Has anyone tried them all? The manuals don't tell you things like how clean a powder burns in a given load range, how much smoke it makes, what the recoil will be like, the volume of a charge, how well it meters in your powder system, whether a certain charge is likely to cycle a given semi-auto, etc.


Nor can they. Many load manuals use a universal reciever to get pressure data; not actual guns. A few manuals will indicate which gun (if a universal reciever was not used), but it's generally only done for a few select calibers.

How clean it burns not only depends on the powder, but also the projectile. Using a lubed lead projectile or a FMJ? What primer are you using, how deep are you seating the bullet etc? What temp are you shooting at? Depending on how full the case is, the angle of the bullet can have an impact. All those factors will affect how completely the powder burns and how much smoke you get.

Recoil is going to be a function of the gun more than the round. A heavier gun will have less felt recoil than a lighter one.

Whether it cycles your semi-auto is also more a function of the gun rather than the round (mass of the slide, strength of the spring, new or broken in, etc, etc, etc).

That's why it's not covered in the load manual. It doesn't belong in the load manual.

Don

fredj338
01-07-2010, 00:56
How clean it burns not only depends on the powder, but also the projectile. Using a lubed lead projectile or a FMJ? What primer are you using, how deep are you seating the bullet etc? What temp are you shooting at? Depending on how full the case is, the angle of the bullet can have an impact. All those factors will affect how completely the powder burns and how much smoke you get.
Not to mention that a powders ability to comletely combust or burn "clean" is often a function of the charge wt./pressure. It's why Unique gets a bad rap as "dirty", it does not run well at IDPA mousefart levels.:upeyes:Powders like H110 are not supposed to be loaded down more thna 3%.
Up until a few years ago, powder manuals didn't even have OAL or they would have SAAMI spec max OAL (almost useless). Once you get into loading high pressure pistol rounds, you realize quickly that OAL matters a lot. Which means bullet shape matters (hear that Mr. Lee).
How many different powders are there? Has anyone tried them all? The manuals don't tell you things like how clean a powder burns in a given load range, how much smoke it makes, what the recoil will be like, the volume of a charge, how well it meters in your powder system, whether a certain charge is likely to cycle a given semi-auto, etc.
Questions like that are good questions about reloading. Asking what primer size to use in the 9mm is just frickin lazy. That's when someone needs to just say "read the manual". If you keep enabling lazy, shoddy practices, the person will not get it thorugh their little pea brain that this is not baking a cake, it's making a mini bomb & should be approached w/ the seriousness of that in mind. TOugh love baby, for all of you that have never raised children.:tongueout:

OgenRwot
01-07-2010, 15:59
Technically there is no need for a reloading forum at all. There's all kinds of data manuals available with how-to's provided.

Yeah, that's true, but again, some of us don't have the money needed nor the time to sort through literally hundreds of items in print. The internet is a much more efficiant source to sort/search/sift through the information.

Bottom line:

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SHARE YOUR INFO THEN DON'T!!!

But don't sit around here and ***** about everyone else that does. If you don't like the way the GTR forum is going you can do what Freak did.

rg1
01-07-2010, 17:53
You took part of my post to quote that was not meant to be a statement of the usefullness of a reloading forum. If you read or quote all my post you will notice that I said I appreciate having a reloading forum for the new loaders as well as the experienced. I share what data I have or have access to and check other posted data to compare to mine. Plus it's nice to have a place to share our addictive hobby with others that are "hooked" too. I simply meant what would our forum be if not to post data and ask any question whether technical or not. Some of us believe it or not were reloading before there was an internet, or home computers and we didn't have a reloading forum. It's nice today that all this info, learning and sharing is available.

Colorado4Wheel
01-07-2010, 18:03
Actually, I think the post goes more like this " I got my LNL AP yesterday. What else do I need?" :supergrin:

Don

Obviously, a can of Blue spray paint.

The inverse is also true.

" I got my 650 yesterday. What else do I need?"

A can of Red spray paint.

Notice it does not work like this.....

" I got my 1050Super yesterday. What else do I need?"

:rock:

RustyFN
01-07-2010, 19:03
" I got my 1050Super yesterday. What else do I need?"


You need to invite Rusty over. :rofl:

GioaJack
01-07-2010, 19:12
You need to invite Rusty over. :rofl:


Yeah, and he'll bring you a LNL... and a real tiny little boat 'cause you already have the anchor. :supergrin:

Jack

RustyFN
01-07-2010, 19:19
Yeah, and he'll bring you a LNL... and a real tiny little boat 'cause you already have the anchor. :supergrin:

Jack

Ouch :rofl: I'll bring beer too.

farnorthwintercamper
01-13-2010, 22:30
BUT, isn't asking questions and seeking advice part of any learning process??? What ever happened to "there are no stupid Questions, only stupid mistakes"?

You guys crack me up, Now that you are all full of years of experience and knowledge you claim the right to tell newcomers (as you guys were once) seeking guidance to Kiss Off and call them Dumb-ass, Lazy and Stupid. Nice!

Or ye'ole' it aint safe in some one elses firearm maybe she will blow you lazy green horn...Well then maybe your re-load sucks and you do not know what you are doing on the bench old timer!!

If any of you lazy s.o.b."s want a great hand load for .308 win. or .44spl. or .45auto p.m. me. And you can run hundreds of them I have done the load development and they will not even blow up your gun!! imagine that! and they will be stupidly accurate guaranteed,,

Bobshouse
01-14-2010, 01:11
your not the only one i was scared ****less the first time i shot my 45/70 no 1 all i could picture was the block crushing my eye and take off the right side of my head.....


Awwww...don't worry about it. If it happens it will be quick and I doubt you will ever know it happened...

Gunnut 45/454
01-14-2010, 12:41
I have never been affraid of pulling the trigger on any load I've built in any firearm I use!!
1. Cause I stayed withing the safety margins of the data-IE use Manuals. 2. All my firearms are of good manufacture. Over 30 years of reloading I have found most accurate laods are 1. not max loads. 2. Whats accurate in your firearm most likely is not accurate in your buddies firearm! Thats cause every gun is as different as you and I!:supergrin:

Maninmirror
01-14-2010, 13:48
Not enough time is a lame excuse. You have the same hours per day I do. If you don't have the time. Either make it or don't re-load.

Save up and buy a Chrono-graph. Smartest purchase of equipment I ever bought.

No matter what you do in life Paying Dues and Laws of average work the same for everyone:

I just fail to see why people think they can go skydiving without a parachute.

The forum is full of valuable information: Individuals Favorite loads isn't one of them: Anyone who uses some elses private load data is cheating the laws of average. Eventually you'll be sorry.

I'd be curious to know how many people have chronographs. I'll admit I saw no need for one until I bought one. This is the best tool I can think of to not only eliminate the variables. But save you valuable time that none of us seem to have enough of.

Don't tell me you can't afford one. If you spending money throwing lead down-range you can afford one.

Kentucky Shooter
01-14-2010, 20:16
I'd be curious to know how many people have chronographs.

I agree, this is a must have. I have the shooting chrony, one of the best $100 I ever spent as far as reloading equipment. If it blew up tomorrow, I would be getting a replacement.