Are newbs at a disadvantage? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Are newbs at a disadvantage?


GioaJack
01-06-2010, 16:47
The excellent thread on trolling and the related thread on 'I'm out of here' has does something very, very unusual... it got me to thinking.

FEAR NOT, I'm sure this is just a passing fancy and am confident that it is not a harbinger of things to come.

For those of us who remember legal pads and number 2 pencils the internet is still something that is a new fanged wonderment that is either loved, hated or just plain tolerated. For many of the newer loaders or total newbs it very well may be the way you've grown up doing research, be it for schooling, business or recreation.

There is no denying that in some aspects it makes life easier, decreases time spent, miles driven and avails one to literally speak to someone of like, or unlike thinking on the other side of the world. These are all positive, and to me, amazing attributes of technology. I believe it's called progress.

There is however, a downside... especially for the newb reloader. That downside is face to face, hands on learning.

When I first started loading, back when Columbus was my next door neighbor and the earth was still flat, there were so many quality gun shops you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting one and if for some reason you lived more than a few miles from a gun club you could always find a group of guys out in a field practicing the art of arms.

Many, if not most of the gun shops had an extensive reloading section that catered to the all-around shooter. (No, reloading is not a recent phenomenon... not by a long shot. Lookie, lookie, I made a pun. Sorry.)

Except for Brownells and one or two other mail order companies you simply went down to your favorite shop and picked what you wanted off the shelf. No shipping, no haz-mat, just dropped your money on the counter and scurried off with your new plunder.

It didn't take many trips to a quality shop to realize that it was more than just a place to buy a pound of powder or a brick of primers... they were social clubs. Places where people of common interests gathered to exchange information, share a always on pot of coffee and learn from the veterans. It was a time when people like Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, P.O. Ackley, McGivern and Hatcher were not just some old fogies lost to history but rather were the trail blazers of the shooting world.

Didn't know what press would best suit your needs? Not to worry, many, many shops had display presses set up on loading benches and no where in sight was there a sign that said, 'Don't Touch'. (Dillon still does business this way... good for them. I haven't been to the Hornady factory so I don't know if they have machines set up to demo.)

Wasn't sure how to load a particular caliber, or how to trim, crimp, cast, swage a pocket, ream a pocket or even how to use a primer flipper... didn't matter, there was always a group of grizzled old veteran loaders who were more than willing to show you how and then regale you with stories of how they single handedly beat the Huns.

So, are newbie loaders at a disadvantage... from my perspective, yes... you miss out on the hands on learning experience, the tales of yore, the camaraderie that develops while listening in wonderment, and most of all, you miss out on those wonderful memories.

Well, I guess you'll have memories of the porn you watch after you log of the GT forum. :whistling:

Jack

dudel
01-06-2010, 17:06
Jack,

Bravo! You bring tears to my old eyes. I think we old timers actually had an advantage without the internet. We developed loads socially or by trial and error. You learned the basics and grew your skills. You became proud of those skills, and shared them with others who then developed and passed them on.

Good old days indeed.

Don
(I see my M3 optics showed up today. Time to go mount them on the AR!)

Bob2223
01-06-2010, 17:41
I have to agree Sir

"dang it" :upeyes:

No it ain't the same but I'm still thankful for knowledge and experience that many here are willing to share.
For me it would have been a long slow process learning to cast if not for the info on the web, and from good old Fred338.
I do miss hanging out at the shops on Saturdays and listening to everyone trade notes.

At least we still have some old fogies like you to tell us about the good old days.

Bob

RLDS45S
01-06-2010, 18:13
Well, it all goes to the McDonald's mentality of the majority of people.
They want it all and they want it now!

Look at reality back not so long ago people actually read magazines like Rifle, Handloader, AR, AH, Precision Shooting. Now, we have people that falsely claim they do not have the time etc to do so they have to TROLL for loads. They do this with out a thought cause they are lazy! They have no clue that they need to work up a load that SAFE, RELIABLE, and ACCURATE in their guns, not going off of someone else's data. What the "what ifs" here demand being a prudent reloader.

You got the people that think they know it all. Well, in fact no one does. And, the day they do is the day they better hang it up toot sweet.

Strong opinions and abrasive posts......well, some times it is hard to make a point.

You have newbee reloaders and Freak was one not so long ago.....pounding out his ammo on a Lee press. His business does not necessarily make him smarter then anyone else. We have some credible people posting great information.

Others well they post pure drivel!

Telling someone where to get reloading data is good info. And, well since so many are just plain cheap bastards that can not buy a few good reloading manuals, well that is simply sad and too bad.

You look at some posts of people's reloading benches, I know that from looking you can see old powder cans, die boxes, and other things that date the owners.

I have been reloading since I was 13 years young. I have loaded on Dillon stuff since the early 80's. Do I know it all, hell no. But, I am wise enough to know where to get a consult or dig out the information.

Reloading is not rocket science, but some people seem to want to make it into such.

Fact #1 it is easy to find what powder is a go to for a caliber and bullet wt range. Too many people seem to arrive at the same conclusion. So, being able to narrow a powder choice down is simple.

Fact #2 if some posters have the time to cruise the internet they dam well sure have the time make up a series of test loads for a bullet.

Fact #3 there are very few universal loads so to speak. Like 38 Special with 2.7gr of BE with a 148gr HBWC, 38grs of H380 with 55gr bullet in a 22.250. They are the EXCEPTION and not the rule. So, gtrolling for a load is STUPID!
I would really laugh when some lazy reloader loaded up a large lot of ammo and then decided it did no shoot for fecal matter! Who they gonna blame then.

Fact #4 If you do not do things right, you endanger yourself, your gun, and perhaps fellow shooters.....think about that one......:wavey:

Colorado4Wheel
01-06-2010, 18:22
Newbie vs Old Guy as a newbie. Honestly, I think it depends on the person.

fredj338
01-06-2010, 18:31
I agree & disagree Jack. The internet is agreat place ot do research, I wish it were available to me when I was doing all that trial & error stuff. It is NOT however a substitute for reading & getting hands on experience. I can learn more by doing than reading & asking questions is great, if you have enough knowledge to know what you are asking & how to decipher the info you have just been given.
I've gone to several guys homes, met here on the forum, & helped them jump start their reloading hobby. It's so much easier doing the face to face & watch them, correct them & advise them.

farley45
01-06-2010, 18:33
I'm just getting into reloading myself and it would be nice if I knew some people that reload. With firearms I am kind of doing my own thing in terms of the interests of the people that I am around most often, so I don't have many places to find face to face information. I just started reading some books and have been looking through the reloading forum and it helps quite a bit, but as you said face to face is always much better.

I did stumble across a family owned gunshop in the city where my university is located. I have been stopping by more frequently, even when I don't have anything I intend to purchase or even consider. But, in that little shop the owner is always willing to bs about anything and there are always a few older men in there hanging out as well. It is a nice atmosphere and I wish there were more shops like this. They generally have a wealth of information waiting for those who will listen.

Colorado4Wheel
01-06-2010, 18:41
I learn better doing it on my own and reading a manual. For instance. The 550 comes with a great manual. I read it the night before mine arrived, read it as I set it up. Learned a lot in the process. Hands on forced me to learn the details. People teaching you how to reload tend to focus on stuff quickly or in too much detail in a way that you may not connect with easily. Now, if the manual sucks, give me a person any day of the week. Reloading process is similiar. The stuff covered in Richards Lees book about Pressure is way better then anything I have ever talked to another reloader about. I may not even remember all of it but as I read it it's a WOW type of thing. I can't imagine anyone explaining it to me as well while in a store. Some people just need someone to show them. Some people don't. Forcing yourself to read a book and learn it is very rewarding if you put the energy in to actually do it.

Colorado4Wheel
01-06-2010, 18:42
I'm just getting into reloading myself and it would be nice if I knew some people that reload. With firearms I am kind of doing my own thing in terms of the interests of the people that I am around most often, so I don't have many places to find face to face information.

Yet, you don't have your City and State listed in your profile.

gjk5
01-06-2010, 19:08
I see nothing wrong with running a load by other reloaders on a forum, I would never load a round based on internet info without confirming it in a manual or slowly working it up.

I also don't see a problem with a new loader saying "I am using 5.6gr of Universal, 200gr .45ACP Berry's, CCI primer and Win case, how does that sound?". Doublechecking never hurt anyone.

Going on a forum and scaring up a load and loading them up without confirmation is pretty stupid however.

dudel
01-06-2010, 19:20
I also don't see a problem with a new loader saying "I am using 5.6gr of Universal, 200gr .45ACP Berry's, CCI primer and Win case, how does that sound?". Doublechecking never hurt anyone.

Going on a forum and scaring up a load and loading them up without confirmation is pretty stupid however.

Nor do I. There's a big difference between "I am using 5.6gr of Universal, 200gr .45ACP Berry's, CCI primer and Win case, how does that sound?"

and

"I need a 9mm load, what primer do I need?".

The first person put some though/effort into the question; the second didn't. I'll tend to help the first; and ignore the second. But then, that's just me.

Going to a forum to scare up a load, loading several hundred rounds of it, without confirmation, or even understanding what you're doing is not only pretty stupid, but dangerous to you (and possibly others).

Don

farley45
01-06-2010, 19:26
Yet, you don't have your City and State listed in your profile.

Yeah, I should put that.

I bounce around (I'm in college but will be graduating in May and will finally be in one location).

I go to school in Lincoln, NE and bounce between my parent's place in Bellevue, NE and my fiancee's parent's place outside of Murray,NE city limits on weekends and breaks.

dudel
01-06-2010, 19:29
I go to school in Lincoln, NE .

Take a quick trip to Grand Island. It's only about 30+ minutes from Lincoln. Visit the folks at Hornady. A very friendly bunch and a great resource. I miss my trips to Kearney and the visits to Cabelas and Hornady.

Don

D. Manley
01-06-2010, 19:45
I agree & disagree Jack. The internet is agreat place ot do research, I wish it were available to me when I was doing all that trial & error stuff. It is NOT however a substitute for reading & getting hands on experience. I can learn more by doing than reading & asking questions is great, if you have enough knowledge to knwo what you are asking & how to decipher the info yopu have just been given.
I've gone to several guys homes, met here on the forum, & helped them jump start their reloading hobby. It's so much easier doing the face to face & watch them, correct them & advise them.

That's about it. When I started, it was a 40 minute drive to the only accessible place that sold any reloading supplies at all. Selection was limited to what was on hand...and if it wasn't on hand, you didn't know it existed so you couldn't ask for it. Apply this to tools, components, manuals and everything else and you get the picture. If you wanted to reload, you pretty much played with the hand you were dealt...the few mail-order houses (Herters, etc.) were a risky venture since all you had to go on were a picture and brief description of whatever they had to offer. Regardless of the caliber you loaded, you were limited to the bullet brands/styles on hand and don't even mention powder selection.

The internet has changed everything and IMHO, most for the better. Anyone wanting to get into the reloading experience nowadays has unlimited access to a virtual library of free information as well as tons of on-line vendors to choose from. He can see virtually everything made by everyone in the business -and- read reviews from those actually using the equipment. The ability to make an informed decision is limited only by an individual's initiative. Do I wish I'd have had this kind of access when I started? You bet. Would it have made any real-world difference? Who knows, but I think it might have been more fun and fewer headaches.

shotgunred
01-06-2010, 20:10
Well it certainly would have been nice t live in a Mayberry or a leave it to beaver type place. I started reloading before the internet in a one horse town. When I was interested in reloading I went to the one gun shop in town. The owner touted the virtues of the one press he carried. It was the absolute best and no need to look at anything else. Well he got my money and I got the press. When I went back the next week with questions he didnít have the time of day for me. In the end I decided to spend my money in the gun shop in the next county. So I learned how to make the one round I was interested in and that was all I did for several years. Eventually I made bullets for two different calibers.
I lost interest for several years. A couple of years ago I picked it back up. I have certainly learned more from the internet in the last couple of years than I did in the 20 years before. The internet is the new version of your old gun shop Jack. You certainly lose something in not being face to face. Having someone help me set up my press and getting it running right would have been nice. It certainly would have saved me some time and money. But learning from scratch certainly taught me the ins and outs of it. But there is a big up side also. I have never met the people who have had the most profound affect on my shooting and reloading. I probably never will. But that does not change the fact that my internet interactions have made me better at these hobbies.

Is it an up side or downside? Yes both.

Three-Five-Seven
01-07-2010, 09:48
Thinking and shooting are two different things.

chris in va
01-07-2010, 14:16
Camaraderie? At a gun shop? You've got to be kidding.

farley45
01-07-2010, 18:53
Take a quick trip to Grand Island. It's only about 30+ minutes from Lincoln. Visit the folks at Hornady. A very friendly bunch and a great resource. I miss my trips to Kearney and the visits to Cabelas and Hornady.

Don

I had no idea Hornady had an outfit in Grand Island. I may have to check it out, thanks.

I do love that they put a Cabelas so close to me; I am an avid hunter.

Wash-ar15
01-07-2010, 18:57
The internet is a great way to share info. Before it,you were at the mercy of the local guy and his mood. sometimes he liked you,sometimes not.

Its just like fixing cars. before the net you had to know the local Guru and kiss his ass to get good info. or bring it to a shop and bend over sometimes.

sharing info is a good thing. Like i tell my kids,knowledge is power.

bush pilot
01-07-2010, 19:37
The internet is a great resource for reloaders, especially when shops are closing down and people need components. I've loaded for 35 years and will find myself turning on the computer for powder suggestions for cartridges I have yet to load. If 10 guys say they have good luck with a certain powder it might be worth grabbing a pound on the way home from work and then cracking the manuals for specifics.

zdogk9
01-08-2010, 20:59
"Look at reality back not so long ago people actually read magazines like Rifle, Handloader, AR, AH, Precision Shooting. Now, we have people that falsely claim they do not have the time etc to do so they have to TROLL for loads. They do this with out a thought cause they are lazy! They have no clue that they need to work up a load that SAFE, RELIABLE, and ACCURATE in their guns, not going off of someone else's data. What the "what ifs" here demand being a prudent reloader."

I have to disagree to an extent; Back in the day the publications you mention were the sole source of information aside from the various manuals and the instructions that came with equipment. That or hooking up with a mentor. Darned right people are lazy. That's exactly the reason I read all of the above publications. They saved me a ton of money and time when it came to load development.
With the internet, (thanks Al) we operate in a large community. At it's best it serves the same function as the above sources of information. It has the added benefit of enabling people to get answers based in experience to specific questions which were not always addressed in the printed media.

WiskyT
01-09-2010, 07:33
Here is one problem newbies have to face: too many ****ing powders. Back in the day you went to the store and bought either a fast, medium or slow powder for pistol. They gave you a free booklet with it and you used the load in the booklet.

Now people get all ghey about having a thousand powders and tweaking their loads by 0.01 grains as if there is a difference. Even if there was a difference, they couldn't shoot well enough to take advantage of it.

I was always partial to Hercules because that's what Dear Old Dad used when I was a kid. Also, the Kenvil powder works wasn't that far away and it would blow up now and then and as a Kid I thought that was pretty cool. So for me Bullseye, Unique and 2400 do it. I've tried Green Dot and it might as well be Bullseye. I tried Blue Dot and it might as well be Unique.

Too many trail bosses, tight groups, VN175917 and VN175971 powders that don't do anything differently than the old classics.

So what is a new guy supposed to do? 5,000 powders all listed with meow data and warnings that using them will blow up your gun. Then you have all the bullets as if a 125 Remington JHP needs different data than a 125 Winchester JHP.

Information overload is the problem and 75% of the info is wrong, contradictory, or uneccessary. A man with two clocks never knows what time it is.

DanaT
01-09-2010, 17:29
Camaraderie? At a gun shop? You've got to be kidding.

I generally find gun shops to be a place where you get opinions that are expressed as facts buy people who know little of what they are talking about. Add the customer "experts" that are there into the mix and typically the BS gets pretty deep.

Go into some gun shops and listen to what they say about Glocks. If its some guy who likes XDs, well, the Glock is so bad that it is likely to blow up and/or shoot yourself.

I find most shops to be of little use for information.

-Dana

LoadedTech
01-09-2010, 18:17
Yes we are Gioa-(thinking is good every now and then :whistling: )
And this is why, I for one, do a lot of research before spending a dollar on something. It's just like any other hobbies for me. For instance, when I built my R/C planes, I went on line and did my research, got the stuff needed and did it. The Cub was a 1/5th scale Goldberg addition, built with a clipped wing to make it more aerobatic, flew great. Now, guns and reloading are my hobbies. One can find anything they want on line, with some searching and reading. My girl thinks I am nuts when I show her some things I come across, but she understands with most other she sees.
This year, in march, will be my first full year of CC with my 27. Read many caliper war threads, checked ammo prices between 9-40-45, decided after 2 months of having my CHP, and many guns rented. That decision was stoked by a pit bull at my daughters bus stop. Now, I like to shoot it, so reloading is cheaper then hopefully finding WWB at you know where. I have only been able to get SPM primers but have worked up loads from 4.o mouse farts to 6.0 155g jhp with 231, and no issues to date on my loadmaster. Well to be honest, once my primer feed arm hopped over the feed ram pin and had about 5 rounds with no primers, but I didn't feel the need to post a lee hate thread. I got it fixed and am over it. Its made about 1500 rounds for me so far and almost paid for in cost so I am not worried about money spent on it.
Bottom line is for NOOBYS, the interweb as OKIE says, is a great source of information to be had, if your willing to do your part! Sharing what you learn or know is up to you (but if you dont want to, just dont post). Bottom line is do the searches, get the info, get to crunching.....................be HAPPY!!!!!!

wavetrain75
01-09-2010, 20:47
...I find most shops to be of little use for information.

-Dana

What? You mean like the guy behind the gun counter that I overheard telling a customer that .38spl and .380acp were "pretty much the same?"

jaybirdjtt
01-09-2010, 22:20
Hey Jack, Loved the post. I have a copy of "Hell! I Was There" by Elmer Keith. Don't forget Jack O'Connor. I was a kid and loved to hang around Mashburn Arms asking questions. I still have the old reloading manuals from the early 60s and I read them all, cover to cover. Despite the internet, the sport is still full of guys who'll lend a hand and help a newbie out. I spent a good 2+ hours today in Cabela's looking at guns, asking questions, learning new things.......great sport! You meet the nicest people. These days, it almost seems like we stick together and wonder, will the government find a way to make all of us outlaws? It is almost an unspoken but common thread and most are thinking......"Let 'em try!"

norton
01-10-2010, 07:41
I just got into reloading a couple of years ago, after many years of shooting.
The internet is a God send. You can watch You tube videos on the press you are interested in, read internet forums like this one, and learn alot. In the end though, I am the kind of guy who needs to do it myself. I took the advice of many here and elsewhere, and got some reloading manuals and read them before ever seating a primer. Over the years I have learned that gun shops are full of blowhards, nimrods, and just out and out dummies. And those are just the customers.
Old geezers ( I am afraid I fall in that O.G. category) think the internet is some type of voodoo. Its just people expressing opinions, same thing your grand pappy did at the barber shop.
This is the best time in history to learn new things. Like reloading. Thanks to the miracle of new technology.