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chris in va
01-06-2010, 23:41
A nice guy on another board plugged in my 9mm numbers to QuickLoads software and came back with some rather disturbing figures.

Now I'm using a Lee TC 124gr boolit, 4.0gr 231 and 1.045oal due to chambering issues with the design. He plugged those in, came back with an overpressure charge over 40k psi. :shocked:

Thing is, I was told from the beginning to load 10% below max listed in my Lyman manual and what is on the Hodgdon site, which is 4.4. The listed OAL is longer, so I dropped it accordingly...but not enough?

I have no signs of overpressure...flattened primers, cracked cases, nothing. It ejects pretty far and feels a bit warm, but thats about it.

So what, should I be loading to 3.5gr now?:faint:

fredj338
01-07-2010, 00:43
Sorry, but QL is a program, it needs CORRECT data input. Much like global warming, crap in is crap out. Your 4gr load is NOT over pressure by any means. Lyman shows 4.4gr w/ a 120gr LTC at less than 30K. If it makes you feel better, drop it 0.1gr but I've run to 4.5gr under a 124grLTC just a bit longer OAL than you @ 1.06". It runs about 1140fps in my LW G17. Max, yes, but not unsafe in my gun.

Colorado4Wheel
01-07-2010, 09:08
A nice guy on another board plugged in my 9mm numbers to QuickLoads software and came back with some rather disturbing figures.

Now I'm using a Lee TC 124gr boolit, 4.0gr 231 and 1.045oal due to chambering issues with the design. He plugged those in, came back with an overpressure charge over 40k psi. :shocked:

Thing is, I was told from the beginning to load 10% below max listed in my Lyman manual and what is on the Hodgdon site, which is 4.4. The listed OAL is longer, so I dropped it accordingly...but not enough?

I have no signs of overpressure...flattened primers, cracked cases, nothing. It ejects pretty far and feels a bit warm, but thats about it.

So what, should I be loading to 3.5gr now?:faint:


I would figure out why you can't load longer. Fix the barrel. Load to normal lenghts. No worries that way.

PCJim
01-07-2010, 10:44
Chris, the Lyman load was safe in THEIR equipment at the COL stated. As a general rule, when you reduce volume in a case by 10%, you increase pressure by 20%. Sames holds true in reverse. I would be very leary of running Lyman's published load data at that short COL, as your pressure will be greatly increased.

It was suggested you have the barrel chamber looked at. Is this an aftermarket barrel? Have you tried factory FMJ ammo in the barrel to determine whether the problem is actually your reloads or the barrel itself?

fredj338
01-07-2010, 12:25
I would figure out why you can't load longer. Fix the barrel. Load to normal lenghts. No worries that way.

Many bbls will not accept a LTC that loads much longer than 1.120". I see this in all mine, S&W, Glock, BHP, certain TC bullets ar going to hit the rifling sooner than a RN style, jacketed or lead. Yes your pressures will be higher but there is no direct formual as 10%=20%, powder type will have a greater affect, ie TG or Clays vs WSF or Unique. Unless the QL program has the exact same bullet style, the pressure data will be skewed because not all 124gr lead bullets are the same. After all that, even if it were a 40K load, which I am doubting, you are only just into +p. Watchfull, yes. Your individual pistol will tell yuo more about your loads then QL or a manual's data.

chris in va
01-07-2010, 15:03
Whew, thanks guys. This is on my CZ 75BD and HiPoint carbine. The TC design catches right past the case mouth and sticks. My FMJ at 1.15 chamber fine because the ogive is different.

Like I said it feels a bit warm and accuracy sucks, but nothing untoward happens. Wish I had a chrony.

kimberguy2004
01-07-2010, 15:35
Having a smith hit that barrel with a finishing reamer might solve a lot of your issues..

GIockGuy24
01-07-2010, 15:38
Quickload works pretty well on bottleneck rifle cartridges but for straight wall rifle and handgun cartridges Quickload can be off by quite a bit. It is a useful program for bottleneck rifle cartridges though.

GIockGuy24
01-07-2010, 15:43
Truncated cone bullets should be loaded to hollow point cartridge lengths which is usually shorter than round nose bullets. The industry standard for hollow points in 9x19 is 1.120". Certain hollow points are designed to loaded even shorter, such as Hornady and Montana Gold. Only a few 147 hollow points are designed to load longer than 1.120", such as 147 grain Remington Golden Sabers. Some round nose bullets can be loaded to about 1.150".

Colorado4Wheel
01-07-2010, 15:53
Many bbls will not accept a LTC that loads much longer than 1.120". I see this in all mine, S&W, Glock, BHP, certain TC bullets ar going to hit the rifling sooner than a RN style, jacketed or lead. Yes your pressures will be higher but there is no direct formual as 10%=20%, powder type will have a greater affect, ie TG or Clays vs WSF or Unique. Unless the QL program has the exact same bullet style, the pressure data will be skewed because not all 124gr lead bullets are the same. After all that, even if it were a 40K load, which I am doubting, you are only just into +p. Watchfull, yes. Your individual pistol will tell yuo more about your loads then QL or a manual's data.

Never said it was direct 2:1 going smaller. Never even talked about it in this or another thread (going shorter). If you want to talk about the 2:1 thing go back to the other thread. Lets not pollute this thread that. It's all off topic anyway.

Back to the O.P.

You are struggling to get a Lead TC bullet into his gun at 1.045 or longer. I have loaded Lead TC bullets at 1.130 all the time in my Glock and Kahr. Guns vary. But 1.045 is VERY short IMHO. If the barrel is that tight get it opened up a little or checked by the manufacture. Your accuracy SUCKS (your word time to fix the barrel. Another choice. Load a different bullet. Your gun hates the one your giving it.

Edit: Do they case gauge? Do you own a case gauge other then your barrel?

chris in va
01-08-2010, 21:17
There's nothing wrong with my CZ barrel. I've talked with many other owners, they all confirm the CZ has a shortish chamber.

I could probably just get another mold but suspect my accuracy issues are more with the hardness and charge than the shape...we'll see after tomorrow when I test about 8 different loads.

Colorado4Wheel
01-08-2010, 22:18
There's nothing wrong with my CZ barrel. I've talked with many other owners, they all confirm the CZ has a shortish chamber.



Just because it may be common does not mean it's right. Good luck with your search and I am not being sarcastic.

Do you case gauge?

BuffaloBo
01-09-2010, 19:07
I use the Lee 124 round nose. I think the ogive is not tapered enough so that when I try to chamber the cartridge it won't chamber because the bullet gets jammed into the rifling. Solution is to seat them deeper and perhaps cut back on the powder charge a bit.

chris in va
01-09-2010, 19:44
Alright, here's the results. Tried 3.5/3.7/4.0gr of 231, also water dropped vs air dry boolits. Did the FCD and non as well.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8528/imgp48827842542.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/i/imgp48827842542.jpg/)

Absolutely horrible. I'm at a loss as to what needs to be done. Tried everything I know.

GioaJack
01-09-2010, 19:57
Chris:

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here so please don't take offense. Based on your posts I see you're casting theses bullets... are you sizing them also. If so to what diameter?

You don't mention the yardage the posted target was at. Some bullet designs will not stabilize at longer ranges and will invariably keyhole. The 148 grain .38 cal wadcutter is notable for it's excellent accuracy out to 50 yards then keyhole farther out.

When you shoot FMJ out of your CZ due you have the same problem or is accuracy and function acceptable?

Do you have the same trouble with a RN design or is it just with the TC? Lets start there and go by process of elimination.

Jack

dudel
01-09-2010, 20:17
Alright, here's the results. Tried 3.5/3.7/4.0gr of 231, also water dropped vs air dry boolits. Did the FCD and non as well.



Absolutely horrible. I'm at a loss as to what needs to be done. Tried everything I know.

What's the distance? Was this indoors or outdoors? Did you use a bench? That's not a bad group for 300 yrds. :supergrin:

I shoot the Lee 124gr TC (6 cavity mold really helps production). Water dropped, not sized, tumble lubed with Alox and it shoots great out of the G17 (LW barrel) with a light load of Bullseye.

Patrick Graham
01-10-2010, 08:17
Alright, here's the results. Tried 3.5/3.7/4.0gr of 231, also water dropped vs air dry boolits. Did the FCD and non as well.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8528/imgp48827842542.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/i/imgp48827842542.jpg/)

Absolutely horrible. I'm at a loss as to what needs to be done. Tried everything I know.

Keyholing.

Odds are those bullets are undersized to begin with or are being swaged down in the reloading process.

Edited to add: I've never owned a Lee mold that I didn't have to lap.

Fatdaddy
01-10-2010, 08:29
Have you checked for major bbl leading since trying out the new mold?
An undersized boolit can lead one pretty fast and cause the "pattern" you show there.

Myke_Hart
01-10-2010, 08:33
Well I just bought the software so I will finnaly get to see what you guys are talking about with Quickloads. Waiting for it to ship.

Looking at your target... Are you benchresting the gun? or standing. What is the distance of the target?

Keyholing is very bad and will never group. So that will have to be fixed first.

Do you have any jacketed bullets to test or factory ammo? Just to be sure the gun is sound?

Clean that lead out first. With keyholing you probably are leaded up, if a close distance.


Edit: looks like I am asking some of the same questions as some posters from above.

dudel
01-10-2010, 17:02
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8528/imgp48827842542.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/i/imgp48827842542.jpg/)

Absolutely horrible. I'm at a loss as to what needs to be done. Tried everything I know.

Well, it's a terrible group; but a great pattern! :supergrin:

chris in va
01-10-2010, 17:58
Do you have any jacketed bullets to test or factory ammo? Just to be sure the gun is sound?


Yes, it does fine with factory FMJ and my own reloaded FMJ.

I slugged the bore again and it comes out at .355. The boolit measures .357, so I can pretty much rule that out.

GioaJack
01-10-2010, 18:03
Yes, it does fine with factory FMJ and my own reloaded FMJ.

I slugged the bore again and it comes out at .355. The boolit measures .357, so I can pretty much rule that out.


If you have the proper sizing die drop the diameter to 356 for your lead bullets. Check and scrub your barrel... you may have picked up a considerable amount of leading. After you know it's lead free test the .356 size bullets... you may be surprised at the results.

Jack

fredj338
01-11-2010, 00:30
Keyholing.

Odds are those bullets are undersized to begin with or are being swaged down in the reloading process.

Edited to add: I've never owned a Lee mold that I didn't have to lap.
We have a winner here. That would be my guess, especially since he stated he uses a LFCD. An under sized bullet moving slow, leading & tumbling is pretty common. Pull a bullet after seating & crimping & measure it.
I know this sounds simplistic, but you could try a diff powder if the bullets are coming in at spec. I had a BHP that hated W231 & lLRN bullets but shot 50c piece groups @ 15yds w/ the LTC & Unique. I'm betting the LFCD is killing you here. Back it out to just taper crimp or dump it all together for lead bullet loads.

Colorado4Wheel
01-11-2010, 08:56
Alright, here's the results. Tried 3.5/3.7/4.0gr of 231, also water dropped vs air dry boolits. Did the FCD and non as well.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8528/imgp48827842542.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/i/imgp48827842542.jpg/)

Absolutely horrible. I'm at a loss as to what needs to be done. Tried everything I know.

FCD's ROCK.

Seriously, get a case gauge, a regular crimp die and start figuring out your issues rather then just quessing. I have asked several times if you case gauge and you never responded so it's pretty obvious you don't. FCD's and lead can be known for some to cause issues. This is why I say everyone needs a regular crimp die and a case gauge. Case guage would tell you if your case is out of spec or if your case/bullet combo is out of spec (does not address your rifling issues of course). It's probably not your issue but you might as well have one to double check and make sure that it's not contributing to your chamber issue. Take the FCD off the press and use your seating die to deflare the bullet. Page 77 of the 49th editon of the Lyman manual has a picture of what "No Crimp" looks like with a Roll crimp die. That process will work perfectly with your 9mm bullets.

Colorado4Wheel
01-11-2010, 08:58
Yes, it does fine with factory FMJ and my own reloaded FMJ.

I slugged the bore again and it comes out at .355. The boolit measures .357, so I can pretty much rule that out.

Your using a .357 bullet and having issues with them hitting the rifling and chamber? On top of it all your running them into a FCD? Size them down to .356. For that application.