125gr .357 SIG from DT [Archive] - Glock Talk

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fsqridah
01-08-2010, 21:03
So my 50-round box of .357 SIG 125gr bonded defense JHPs came from DT today, but something seemed off. Instead of having the silver cases stamped "Doubletap" on the bottom, they were brass colored with "Winchester" stamped on the bottom, and the bullets did not appear to be the same bullets that Speer uses in their Gold Dot line. From what I've seen, the Speer bullets have a very shallow cavity, but mine had a deeper cavity and looked identical to the 9mm bullets from the Speer Gold Dots. To my knowledge, the bonded defense JHPs are the same bullets Speer uses in their Gold Dots, and if that's the case, then the 125gr bullets aren't the right ones. I emailed McNett earlier today and should hear back from him by early next week. I'm wondering if there was a mixup when they were loading cartridges?

This is what (from what I've been told) they should look like from DT:

http://i42.tinypic.com/2userfk.jpg

However, the bullets themselves look identical to this:

https://surplusammo.com/images/9mm%20124%20GDHP%20Speer%20bulk.JPG

fsqridah
01-08-2010, 21:05
I should also note that I've had nothing but excellent service from DT, so I could be completely wrong about 9mm bullets being loaded into .357 SIG cases.

unit1069
01-08-2010, 22:45
The second picture looks exactly like the Double Tap Gold Dot 125-grain JHP .357sig ammo I bought almost two years ago when DT specifically advertised "Gold Dot" as the bullet. I still have some of those rounds.

skip a stone
01-10-2010, 09:57
I should also note that I've had nothing but excellent service from DT, so I could be completely wrong about 9mm bullets being loaded into .357 SIG cases.

9mm and 357 Sig are both .355 caliber bullets, and are interchangable in loadings of any .355 bullet as far as I know. I have seen the difference in shallow vs. deep GoldDots, but I'm not sure I've ever been informed as to why there is a difference at all. I've only seen the shallow ones in Speers line of 357 Sig. GoldDots I've bought to reload with (as are the ones that come with DoubleTap rounds) are the deeper set hollow points. Not sure if GoldDots changed specs somewhere down the line of original made bullets or not. :dunno:

mastrbloata
01-10-2010, 10:49
This is the second posting like this that I've seen but I didn't comment on the other one a few weeks ago. I meant to, I just forgot so I'm glad I saw this posting.- After I saw the other posting, (even though it was about .357sig Gold Dots) I was going and loading up a few mags for my 17 and one box of the 124gr. +P SPEER Gold Dot I had was a few years old and the other box of the 124gr. +P SPEER Gold Dot I'd just bought was a something I'd purchased just a few weeks before. Both boxes were 50 boxes. Honestly, if it hadn't been for that other posting I saw I might not have even noticed but I realized that one box contained bullets that looked like what is in your first picture and the other box had bullets like what's in your second picture. However, both were sold as Speer Gold Dot 124gr. +P and both cases were marked "SPEER 9mm. Luger +P." I got out of .357sig a few months ago but I had had 125gr. SPEER Gold Dot .357sig in the 50 boxes (six of them) and they all had the bullets that looked like what's in your second picture.:faint:

hurley842002
01-10-2010, 10:52
Here is the link to a thread I started awhile back, after getting my DT 357sig. http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1151314 . May answer some of your questions. I got curious last night, and pulled one of the "125gr" Gold dots from one of my DT rounds (which had bullet setback). I weighed it on my digital scale, and got 124 grains instead of 125. Sounds like 9mm bullets are being used. I'm using HST's now so not a huge deal to me, but certainly worth noting.

fsqridah
01-10-2010, 20:54
I don't have a digital scale, but I'm sure I could locate one locally to borrow. If DT is making .357 SIG ammo with 124gr 9mm bullets, that does not make me happy. I bought a G33, not a G26, and not only do I want the added velocity, I want the bullets designed for that added velocity. Haven't heard back from Mike, but hopefully I will tomorrow.

From the pretty extensive reading I've done, shallow cavities are for higher velocities. I mean, it's not THAT big of a deal, but I'd at least like a response from Mike explaining what the deal is. I'm sure he'll get back to me promptly as always.

pisc1024
01-10-2010, 21:15
I just purchased a box of 357 mag 125 gr bonded from DT, and they appeared to have a similar problem. I noticed that they had a deeper cavity in them than what I was used to seeing with the same load from speer. The bullet appeared to be one designed for 38 special velocities. I did a field test on them today. I used three milk jugs full of water. The effects on them were violent. It just made it into the third jug, making a small entry hole into it. I recovered the projectile, and it showed signs of extreme fragmentation! I noted several fragments in the first and second jugs. Over all I must say that I am disappointed with this particular loading from DT. I think that if the proper bullet cannot be procured then they should discontinue the loading until they can be found. Due to the velocity difference in 9mm and 357 sig, the bullet construction is different (shallower cavity for the sig), and the same goes for bullets used in 38 spc and 357 mag's. While the diameter is the same, the construction must be approached differently. I must say though, that I do like their 10mm offerings very much, and will continue to buy them!

hurley842002
01-10-2010, 21:47
I don't have a digital scale, but I'm sure I could locate one locally to borrow. If DT is making .357 SIG ammo with 124gr 9mm bullets, that does not make me happy. I bought a G33, not a G26, and not only do I want the added velocity, I want the bullets designed for that added velocity. Haven't heard back from Mike, but hopefully I will tomorrow.

From the pretty extensive reading I've done, shallow cavities are for higher velocities. I mean, it's not THAT big of a deal, but I'd at least like a response from Mike explaining what the deal is. I'm sure he'll get back to me promptly as always.

It would be interesting to pull a couple bullets from this loading and see if they all measure 124, I hate to base my reading on one bullet, however i'm not going to ruin several rounds to come to a conclusion. I e-mailed Mike shortly after starting my thread, about the differences in bullets, and I recieved a very generic answer. I don't even remember what he said, I was irritated to the point I deleted it immediately. Let us know what he tells you.

fsqridah
01-10-2010, 22:14
It might be a loading or stocking error on DT's part, or it could be that their .357 SIG bullet orders coming from Speer have the 9mm-style construction. Depending on what McNett has to say, I may give the techs at Speer a call and see what they tell me. Given that DT is a reputable and well known reloading company, I'm sure the ppl at Speer are well aware what they're sending them.

If this issue does not get resolved, I may switch to HSTs. Some searching found they were averaging around 1370fps out of a 4" barrel, so I can't imagine them being under 1300fps from a 3.5" G33 barrel.

I wonder why McNett hasn't been using HST bullets. They're proving to be extremely reliable and ultra high performance. But being that ATK is trying to get them restricted to LE, I'd say they wouldn't even sell them to McNett if he asked. Not to take away from the Speer bullets at all as they're excellent, but the HSTs are just bad***, period. They are shallow cavity in the .357 SIG, right?

I guess my major concern with the 9mm bullets in the .357 SIG loadings are feeding/cycling reliability and fragmentation. I could not care less about overexpansion and all that nonsense, but I don't want them fragmenting. Now if they were like 155-165gr bullets out of a G20 with a 6" BarSto barrel that were fragmenting and still penetrating to 12", I'd be okay with that, but I'd say the 124gr 9mm bullets at 1350fps+ would not fragment and still get the majority of the core/fragments beyond even 8".

Anyway, we'll see what McNett tells me.

hurley842002
01-11-2010, 18:13
I really don't think you will have to worry about Cycling issues or fragmentation with the GD bullet, even if it is a 9mm. Gold Dots are quite tough and can probably handle quite a bit of speed. I will add some concerns I've had with the DT 357sig rounds, I mentioned the other night that I pulled one of the bullets, because it had been set back in the casing. Well tonight while unloading one of my mags to check which follower it had, I noticed another DT round that was set back. Now these rounds haven't been handled roughly, and were loaded into these mags and left in the night stand, so the fact that not one, but two of these rounds have been victim of "bullet setback" is quite disturbing. I'm fortunate I didn't try and shoot either of these rounds, because it could have been nasty. Just some food for thought. I recently ordered some HST and have been carrying those, and I think I will continue to carry them. I'll post a pick of a DT 357 that I tested, next to an HST 357 that I tested.

fsqridah
01-11-2010, 18:58
The setback issue makes me nervous. The 124gr 9mm bullet is longer than a 125gr .357 SIG bullet. One of the teething issues of the .357 SIG was trouble crimping the case once the bullet was seated because the bullet went beyond the shoulder. Now, the bullets are shorter and stubbier on the front so you can crimp them above the shoulder. So using a 9mm bullet means either it'll be over the specified OAL, or pushed too far down into the case to be properly crimped.

Still haven't heard back from McNett.

PghJim
01-11-2010, 20:22
I did pull about 8 bullets of DT and they varied from 122.9 to 125.1 grains with an average around 124. I truly believe they are GD's, but the 9mm 124gr. bullet. I am still very surprised at the weight variation. Maybe they are off spec and DT and BB got a deal on them. I am now carrying 125 gr. HST, until Corbon starts making their 125 grain again.

hurley842002
01-11-2010, 20:27
Here is the Pic of the Setback, next to a normal one

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh297/hurley842002/Setback.jpg

DT Right HST Left

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh297/hurley842002/GDHSTTOP.jpg

HST Right DT Left

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh297/hurley842002/GDHSTCompare.jpg

DT Gold Dot Retained 122 Grains of Original Weight

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh297/hurley842002/GDScale.jpg

HST Retained 124 Grains of Original Weight

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh297/hurley842002/HSTScale.jpg

hurley842002
01-11-2010, 20:32
Most of the above Pics are not relevant to the Original Post, but I figured it was worth sharing. I'm not trying to bash DT ammo, and the performance of these rounds while shooting them is great, however between the question of bullet being used, and the setback, I don't think i'll continue to use their 357sig offering. Which is unfortunate, because the numbers are impressive and the price is right.

fsqridah
01-11-2010, 20:40
Wow. I know a lot of people overblow the whole setback issue, but that's serious setback. Hmmm...well, guess I might use the DT ammo for range ammo and get some HSTs for carry. As disappointed as I am over the weird ammo, I still love DT's 10mm stuff. The 155gr GD loadings are top notch.

hurley842002
01-11-2010, 20:58
Wow. I know a lot of people overblow the whole setback issue, but that's serious setback. Hmmm...well, guess I might use the DT ammo for range ammo and get some HSTs for carry. As disappointed as I am over the weird ammo, I still love DT's 10mm stuff. The 155gr GD loadings are top notch.

Never used the 10mm stuff (don't own a 10mm YET), but their 45acp is GREAT stuff, and I will continue to keep a few rounds of that in stock.

fsqridah
01-12-2010, 10:52
Never used the 10mm stuff (don't own a 10mm YET), but their 45acp is GREAT stuff, and I will continue to keep a few rounds of that in stock.

Oh you will. :supergrin:

Yah know what I love about GT? There are a ton of .45 ACP fans on here, but very few of them are the arrogant "well, I carry a forty-five, now that's a REAL man's gun!" I get so tired of the jerkoffs that carry .45s and think what they carry is second only to a .50 BMG.

Yeah their .45 ACP stuff is super stuff. I hear their 230 GDs expand to well over an inch.

Dauntless452003
01-12-2010, 18:29
Ive had the same problem before. The most recent rounds I purchased from them were the actual .357 SIG bullets, though. Im glad you posted this, because I was about to buy some new ones to cycle out the ones I currently have in my mags. Please keep me updated as to what you find out.

glock20c10mm
01-13-2010, 01:24
I still love DT's 10mm stuff. The 155gr GD loadings are top notch.
:agree: +1 :thumbsup:

Good Shooting,
Craig

PS - still watching to see what Mike's answer back to you is!