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soulless
01-11-2010, 19:05
So what's the big difference between this and the luger? i asked one of the saleman at Cabela's and he said, it's a 9x18... WTF? no way. The 9x18 is the markarov or however you spell it, isn't it?

He also said, the 9mm nato cannot be use in our standard 9mm glocks and other 9mm pistols... /????:dunno::dunno::dunno:

Merkavaboy
01-11-2010, 19:16
9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9mmP, 9mm Luger+P, 9mm Luger+P+, 9mm NATO, 9x19mm, 9mmx19, they're all the same cartridge with the exception of the +P, +P+ and NATO being loaded to higher than standard pressures.

Jeff82
01-11-2010, 19:34
Although I haven't done it (cut one apart), I've read that NATO spec cases have thicker brass/web than other 9mm cases (along with +P, +P+).

http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/17_3/features/5231-1.html
http://gunnuts.net/2009/04/03/9mm-nato-vs-9mm-luger/

Jeff82
01-11-2010, 20:03
From http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-June01.html

"STANDARDIZATION MARKINGS and MEANINGS
In August 1959, the NATO Department of Military Standardization published the NATO identification marking. The NATO identification mark is a cross within a circle. All types of ammunition standardized by NATO and adhering to the terms of the Standardization Agreement (STANAG) bears this mark, indicating that the cartridge in question is interoperable with others so marked. However, it cannot be stressed enough that this marking alone does not guarantee interchangeability. That is to say, a random selection of 7.62mm NATO cartridges from different manufacturers bearing the cross-within-circle marking will likely display equally random ballistic performance. Only the inclusion of an additional marking on the cartridge packaging in the form of a maltese cross or four leafed clover indicates that the ammunition is expected to provide identical ballistic performance. If the clover symbol is framed, this is an indication that the accessories contained within the packaging such as clips or links also correspond to designs approved by the STANAG."

Interesting.

More at http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007smallarms/5_9_07/Geddes_1120am.pdf

Looks like 22 different 9mm NATO cartridge designs. 5 Active, 13 Passive, 4 Obsolete.

More than you want to know:
http://gigconceptsinc.com/files/9mm_Para_Guide.pdf
http://gigconceptsinc.com/RefInfo9mmP.html

481
01-11-2010, 20:04
So what's the big difference between this and the luger? i asked one of the saleman at Cabela's and he said, it's a 9x18... WTF? no way. The 9x18 is the markarov or however you spell it, isn't it?

He also said, the 9mm nato cannot be use in our standard 9mm glocks and other 9mm pistols... /????:dunno::dunno::dunno:

Not all salesmen are idiots. This one was.

Hope you got a good deal on it.:cool:

Molon
01-12-2010, 22:13
Although I haven't done it (cut one apart), I've read that NATO spec cases have thicker brass/web than other 9mm cases (along with +P, +P+).


I have and there is no difference.

Molon
01-12-2010, 22:15
So what's the big difference between this and the luger?

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
There is nothing particularly “hot” about the 9mm 124 grain NATO load. The velocity figures that people like to throw around for the 9mm 124 grain NATO round are from test barrels, (7.85” EPVAT barrels to be specific) not actual pistol barrels. Even when fired from a Beretta 92, with its 5 inch barrel, the 124 grain NATO round doesn’t even come close to the velocities people claim. In fact, there is little difference in velocity between the 9mm 124 grain NATO round and a modern standard pressure 9mm 124 grain hollow point round.<o:p></o:p>
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As an example, the chronograph printout shown below is from the Speer 124 grain Gold Dot (standard pressure load) fired from a Beretta 92. The instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1114 fps.<o:p></o:p>
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http://www.box.net/shared/static/cp3y2jeqay.jpg<o:p></o:p>
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Now take a look at the next chronograph printout. This printout is from the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Winchester</st1:place></st1:City> 9mm 124 grain NATO load fired from the same Beretta 92, fired immediately after the Gold Dot load was fired. The instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1108 fps; 6 fps less than the Gold Dot load.



http://www.box.net/shared/static/6fspcammqj.jpg

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Here is some additional chronograph data, this time comparing Federal's 9mm 124 grain NATO load to several other 124 grain duty loads. All loads were fired from a SIG Sauer P229 with a 3.8" barrel. Note that the 9mm NATO load is the slowest load in the table.<o:p></o:p>
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http://www.box.net/shared/static/zzytjvjkhx.jpg<o:p></o:p>
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ricklee4570
01-13-2010, 10:40
I could never tell a difference when shooting NATO over standard 9mm.

481
01-13-2010, 19:31
Molon's data mirrors that which I've obtained from running M882 across a chronograph.

The only time I've bothered to run the stuff across my screens (2006), I got the following results and find the M882 to be much less than what it is frequently hyped to be.

Winchester 9mm NATO M882 124 gr. FMJ (WCC-00-K-033-008)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Hi: 1150<o:p></o:p>
Lo: 1068<o:p></o:p>
Av: 1113<o:p></o:p>
Md: 1109<o:p></o:p>
ES: 82<o:p></o:p>
SD: 20.09

n: 44<o:p></o:p>

Aside from the rather "sedate" average velocity, there is little to note about this ammunition other than its particularly "large-ish" extreme spread and mediocre standard deviation. Fired from my otherwise "reasonably" accurate G17 (which routinely prints 2 1/2" groups at 25m, off-hand) this stuff produced an unimpressive 5.25" group (from the bench) at 25m.

IMO, it is all "much adieu" about nuthin'.