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1canvas
01-13-2010, 10:19
years ago the .357 mag 125grn. was suppost to be king for SD. if that is still true why is the 9mm and .40 so popular when we now have the .357 sig round? it would also seem that the .357 sig. bottleneck round would be the most reliable feeding round in an auto.

Free Radical
01-13-2010, 10:26
.357SIG is a niche round. I think that it is gaining in popularity and I also believe the bottle neck cartridge offers a functional advantage, but there are many traditionalists that like what they carry now. To each their own.

glock2740
01-13-2010, 10:58
The .357 Sig is a great SD round. Can be hard to find and pricey though.

fsqridah
01-13-2010, 11:43
When the .357 SIG first appeared on the scene, it had some teething issues. For starters, the necked case was causing feeding problems (instead of preventing them). Some how the rounds were "nosediving" and causing bullet-down stovepipes. Secondly, the bullets used were of 9mm design, so they were too long. Once seated far enough to clear the OAL, you couldn't crimp them because the bottom of the bullet was below the case shoulder. This caused setback problems much worse than ever seen in 9/40.

These problems have been fixed, but those are probably the reasons that the .357 SIG got a really slow start. If those issues weren't enough to turn people away, the immense blast/recoil and increased wear and tear sealed the deal.

When you bring in a .355" autoloading cartridge that is supposed to duplicate .357 magnum ballistics, you've got a very short window to make it look good, and it just didn't happen. It'll catch on more as time goes by, but it will never replace 9/40/45, or even rival them in popularity.

unit1069
01-13-2010, 14:25
These problems have been fixed, but those are probably the reasons that the .357 SIG got a really slow start. If those issues weren't enough to turn people away, the immense blast/recoil and increased wear and tear sealed the deal.

Wow! I've never seen it described as "immense"!

I shot a G-22 for the first time about a month ago, with 180-grain WWB ammo. The recoil was surprisingly more severe than my G-32. A week before that I shot several magazines of .45ACP through a S&W 1911, which also had more recoil than my G-32. And I really don't know where "blast"comes into it.

My G-32 has somewhat more recoil than my Steyr M9-A1 but that's to be expected when comparing apples to oranges. There's a rhythm and technique for each different caliber, but the recoil difference between my Steyr and Glock is far less than between the G-32 and G-22. My subjective observation, of course.

LEAD
01-13-2010, 14:40
When the .357 SIG first appeared on the scene, it had some teething issues. For starters, the necked case was causing feeding problems (instead of preventing them). Some how the rounds were "nosediving" and causing bullet-down stovepipes. Secondly, the bullets used were of 9mm design, so they were too long. Once seated far enough to clear the OAL, you couldn't crimp them because the bottom of the bullet was below the case shoulder. This caused setback problems much worse than ever seen in 9/40.

These problems have been fixed, but those are probably the reasons that the .357 SIG got a really slow start. If those issues weren't enough to turn people away, the immense blast/recoil and increased wear and tear sealed the deal.

When you bring in a .355" autoloading cartridge that is supposed to duplicate .357 magnum ballistics, you've got a very short window to make it look good, and it just didn't happen. It'll catch on more as time goes by, but it will never replace 9/40/45, or even rival them in popularity.

Theres a lot of good info here.

One thing I can't help but think about everytime people question how good the .357sig round is, when 9mm bullets come so close to the velocities attained with the sig round is; what about the wear on those 9s. Those .357sig guns are built to handle this punishment as its only ammo offerings, even target ammo, is loaded to the same or very close to the velocities of the full power self defense ammo. Running 9mm+p+ will put more wear on a 9mm pistol, than the target loads available. Shooting practice ammo for the .357sig is about the same in terms of wear, when comparing to shooting self defence ammo. I would think that a 9mm pistol would wear out from shooting a lot of 9mm+p+ before a .357sig pistol from the same manufacturer would shooting the avialable loads.

I like that the ammo I choose for self defense is loaded the same as the ammo I practice with. I can only assume most of you guys shooting 9mm+p+ or other 9mm self defense ammo really aren't getting the same feel with your practice ammo.

AWESOMO 4000
01-13-2010, 19:44
The whole, "massive recoil and muzzle blast/flash!" thing about the .357SIG needs to stop. I can't tell the difference between my P229 in .357 and my M92FS Beretta. Unless your firing it at night and without ear protection, it is nothing to flinch at.

Brucev
01-13-2010, 20:23
years ago the .357 mag 125grn. was suppost to be king for SD. if that is still true why is the 9mm and .40 so popular when we now have the .357 sig round? it would also seem that the .357 sig. bottleneck round would be the most reliable feeding round in an auto.

The .357 Sig. is a fine round. In just about every respect it is the auto-loading version of the load that made the .357 Mag. such an outstanding round for use by LEO's. As currently developed and produced, it is very effective. It may be that this round will see wider acceptance. Cost will be one factor. This afternoon I was at Wal-Mart. Winchester White Box .357 Sig. ammo was $26/50 rds. WWB .40 S&W ammo was $31/100 rd. value pack. WWB .45 ACP was $34/100 rds. Another factor will be muzzle blast/etc. Simply put, the .40 S&W is a very user friendly round when fired from pistols such as the G-22 and other similar sized handguns. Also there are many who simply prefer more bullet weight than can be loaded in the .357 Sig. which is pretty much limited to only a single bullet weight. JMHO. Sincerely. Brucev.

glock20c10mm
01-13-2010, 21:25
I've heard tell that the 357SIG has kicked to 45 Auto to the curb and is now in 3rd place behind 9 and 40 in LE.

The 357SIGs popularity is still growing. Who knows what the future holds.

Mrs_Esterhouse
01-13-2010, 23:18
I've heard tell that the 357SIG has kicked to 45 Auto to the curb and is now in 3rd place behind 9 and 40 in LE.

The 357SIGs popularity is still growing. Who knows what the future holds.

Interesting. :wow:

fredj338
01-13-2010, 23:23
I've heard tell that the 357SIG has kicked to 45 Auto to the curb and is now in 3rd place behind 9 and 40 in LE.

The 357SIGs popularity is still growing. Who knows what the future holds.

In LE circles, probably true. I love my P239. Blast is definitely greater than a 9mm+P but not off the chart. Recoil just isn't that much more. WHy is it not embraced more by LEA? Cost of guns, ammo & shootability. The 9mm is easy & cheap to train with. Probably the easiest round to get a novive (most nebw cops) up & running with. The extra blast of the 357sig can intimidate new shooters. Great round, even in smaller guns, something the 9mm lacks IMO.

Dauntless452003
01-13-2010, 23:51
My 32 is pretty tame, as far as recoil is concerned, in comparison to a G23 I had at one point. As a result of a disability, I have to shoot one handed and have absolutely no problem handling the .357 SIG.

Additionally, if you purchase ammo through a company like Georgia Arms, it really isn't too terribly expensive. You can buy 1000 rounds through them for $310 which translates into 31 cents/round, which is equivalent to the above posted wal mart prices for .40 and less than the .45's.

glock20c10mm
01-14-2010, 09:11
My 32 is pretty tame, as far as recoil is concerned, in comparison to a G23 I had at one point. As a result of a disability, I have to shoot one handed and have absolutely no problem handling the .357 SIG.
Very good point. Too many people blow recoil of 357SIG and 10mm Auto way out of proportion.

fsqridah
01-14-2010, 10:00
Wow! I've never seen it described as "immense"!

I'm glad to see my fully intended BS was caught. I don't find the .357 SIG to be any more difficult to control than .40S&W. It's snappier, but less torques less, so I think it's more controllable.

My point was that the perceived blast/recoil from the .357 SIG runs a lot of people off, regardless of how tame it might actually be for most. Exactly the same with the 10mm.

What I really get tired of is the whole, "It's just a 9mm +P++, nothing more." It's not, it's got a beefed up gun to handle the increased muzzle energy and completely different bullet construction to handle the added velocity. And flawless feeding as well with the ability to convert to a .40. I don't care how you put it, 9mm can't do some of those things, regardless of how fast you push it.

Mrs_Esterhouse
01-14-2010, 10:02
357 SIG = http://www.frattoys.com/images/stich_sm.jpg

SDGlock23
01-14-2010, 10:02
Tops?? I wouldn't say that, but it is a good cartridge no doubt as it feeds well and has good chamber support. It does a good job at replicating the popular 125gr .357 Magnum while offering higher capacity as well as comparably lighter weight handguns.

glock20c10mm
01-14-2010, 11:21
357 SIG = http://www.frattoys.com/images/stich_sm.jpg
:agree: That sums up the 357SIG quite well!

fsqridah
01-14-2010, 14:27
357 SIG = http://www.frattoys.com/images/stich_sm.jpg

Yeah pretty much.

Bobcatbaseball
01-14-2010, 15:39
People at the range always look when I start letting loose with the G33. Some know what it is and go back to shooting, some HAVE to ask..... I like it!

Glolt20-91
01-14-2010, 16:02
years ago the .357 mag 125grn. was suppost to be king for SD. if that is still true why is the 9mm and .40 so popular when we now have the .357 sig round? it would also seem that the .357 sig. bottleneck round would be the most reliable feeding round in an auto.

Actually, the tremendous reputation of the .357mag began with 158gr loadings, both lead and Remington's SJHP design.

From Jim Taylor's article The Three-Fifty-Seven Magnum's
in My Life and some historical relevance;

While it was touted as a "car stopper" for Police work, it did duty as a game-getter from its birth. Major Doug Wesson and Elmer Keith were the first notables to use it on game and write it up. Today it is fashionable to pooh-pooh it as a Big Game gun but these men did not see it that way.
There is some reason, however, to at least (in principle) agree with those who are hesitant about the use of the .357 on Big Game.

First, the factory loadings today are loaded to less pressure than the original loads and consequently have less power. The early .357's were loaded in cartridges that utilized a Large primer and heavy loads developed quite a bit of pressure above the established levels of today's factory offerings.

Its use as a Police weapon began to be curtailed in the 1960's. It had proven very effective against criminals.... so much so that the protests said it was too effective! Litigation and political pressure caused many Police agencies to look for a weapon that had a "nicer" public image and little by little the .357 was phased out. Very few Departments today use them.

357 Magnum Testimonials from earlier days

1935
Major Douglas Wesson
• Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)
• Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)
• Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)
• Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)
The Antelope was hit the first time at 125 yards. It ran, stopped and was shot the second time at 200 yards. The second shot killed it.

The Bull Elk was killed with one shot through the lungs.

The Moose was shot in the chest near the base of the neck. It cut the 2nd rib, passed through both lungs, sheared the 8th rib on the off side and stopped just under the hide. No follow-up shot was required.

These animals were taken on a Fall hunt in Wyoming, near the West entrance of Yellowstone Park. The Grizzly was taken later in Canada.

The above game was taken using factory loads which were a 158 gr. bullet at 1515 fps from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W producing 812 ft. lbs of muzzle energy. (S&W later shortened the barrels to 8 3/8" as we have today)

To those who criticized, the Major replied that they "...had not the slightest conception of what we have accomplished in ballistics.." - a statement that still applies today.


The sectional density of the .357/158gr matches up with 10mm/200gr for a direct comparison.

Although the .357SIG/125gr combination has established an excellent reputation for one shot stops on violent felons in LEO circles; this caliber falls short of the .357mag's versatility, IMHO. :)

Bob :cowboy:

380Seecamp
01-14-2010, 16:47
One jello test:

http://www.gunsite.co.za/images/pics/speer_selfdefense/Handgun_gel_comparisonweb.jpg

fsqridah
01-14-2010, 20:27
Although the .357SIG/125gr combination has established an excellent reputation for one shot stops on violent felons in LEO circles; this caliber falls short of the .357mag's versatility, IMHO. :)

Bob is referring to loading versatility. Yes, the added case volume makes the .357 magnum more flexible as far as bullet weights and charges, but the .357 SIG being an auto cartridge with high capacity mags and ultra fast reloads make it a more versatile cartridge overall than the .357 magnum.

Besides, the .357 magnum gets some nasty muzzle energy if it's pushing 158gr bullets out of a 6" barrel at 1450fps or better, but most people who carry them for defense use 125gr bullets out of 2-2.5" snubbies. So comparing the typical .357 magnum setup to a G33, XD-40 with a .357 SIG barrel, etc, the .357 SIG setups will get better ballistics than the .357 magnum setups. Now if you're carrying full size revolvers with handloads, the .357 magnum is up there, but I think the thread is more centered around defensive weapons.

Mrs_Esterhouse
01-14-2010, 20:43
Yes, the 357 SIG falls short of the 357 Mag ballistics in the heavier grain bullets, but the 357 Mag falls 6 rounds short of the 357 SIG in every grain bullet.
:supergrin:

Glock940
01-14-2010, 21:49
I had a 357sig Sig Sauer 229 (30oz empty) and traded it in for a SW 686P 357 magnum 4" barrel (38oz empty). The sig pistols and magnum pistols are each a good SD gun but I liked the magnum much better than the sig round, for the same reason Glolt and Mrs_Esterhouse posted. I have shot both before, but I just couldn't stay away from the 357 Magnum.
The semi 357sig round is a good round and the pistol does hold more rounds, faster to reload and some are lighter. The typical 4 to 6 inch 357 magnum revolver is heavier, can be loaded with more powerful rounds, some models can hold 7 or 8 rounds, and reloading is slower than a semi-auto pistol.
About accuracy I will use the last two as a comparison...I know some (or most) won't believe, but I shot much better with the SW 686P magnum than with the Sig P229. Used 158gn in the SW and 125gn in the Sig. I shot the magnum in DA and single and still shot better than with the P229. Maybe because it weighed a little more, trigger pull (I really didn't like the Sig Sauers), or the barrel being a little longer (3.8 compared to 4), I really don't know....I thought I would have shot better with the semi...even with the dislike for the trigger pull.
For the 357 sig against the 357 magnum...I, myself, will stick with the magnum round over the sig round even though re-loading is slower and only holds 7 rounds. I like to have that round versatility, so I guess its what you want out of the pistol. This is just my on experience with these two rounds.

Glolt20-91
01-14-2010, 22:12
Yes, the 357 SIG falls short of the 357 Mag ballistics in the heavier grain bullets, but the 357 Mag falls 6 rounds short of the 357 SIG in every grain bullet.
:supergrin:

Does this mean you miss your target with the first 6, 7 or 8 rounds??? :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

Mrs_Esterhouse
01-14-2010, 22:16
Does this mean you miss your target with the first 6, 7 or 8 rounds??? :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

A lot can happen when dealing with multiple assailants under high stress - just say'n.

glock20c10mm
01-14-2010, 22:43
Bob is referring to loading versatility. Yes, the added case volume makes the .357 magnum more flexible as far as bullet weights and charges, but the .357 SIG being an auto cartridge with high capacity mags and ultra fast reloads make it a more versatile cartridge overall than the .357 magnum.

Besides, the .357 magnum gets some nasty muzzle energy if it's pushing 158gr bullets out of a 6" barrel at 1450fps or better, but most people who carry them for defense use 125gr bullets out of 2-2.5" snubbies. So comparing the typical .357 magnum setup to a G33, XD-40 with a .357 SIG barrel, etc, the .357 SIG setups will get better ballistics than the .357 magnum setups. Now if you're carrying full size revolvers with handloads, the .357 magnum is up there, but I think the thread is more centered around defensive weapons.
+1 :thumbsup:

Not to mention back in the day when bullet design was lacking by todays standards, you almost had to have a 158gr pill just to get enough penetration depth. Nowadays the 124/125gr pills hold together just fine and therefore get enough penetration depth.


Craig

Glock-it-to-me
01-14-2010, 22:56
Never owned a 9mm. I own weapons in all the other self defense calibers, though!

Glolt20-91
01-14-2010, 23:27
Bob is referring to loading versatility. Yes, the added case volume makes the .357 magnum more flexible as far as bullet weights and charges, but the .357 SIG being an auto cartridge with high capacity mags and ultra fast reloads make it a more versatile cartridge overall than the .357 magnum.

Besides, the .357 magnum gets some nasty muzzle energy if it's pushing 158gr bullets out of a 6" barrel at 1450fps or better, but most people who carry them for defense use 125gr bullets out of 2-2.5" snubbies. So comparing the typical .357 magnum setup to a G33, XD-40 with a .357 SIG barrel, etc, the .357 SIG setups will get better ballistics than the .357 magnum setups. Now if you're carrying full size revolvers with handloads, the .357 magnum is up there, but I think the thread is more centered around defensive weapons.

I also load for the .38 Super and can typically match up with Double Tap's published .357SIG MVs, the Super is one of my favorite calibers and I've carried it while hiking in active mountain lion country.

I chronographed some old tech (but extremely effective) Remington 125gr SJHPs from Walmart, 1465fps from a 4" Dan Wesson and 1610fps from a 6" M686 plus. Both the 686 and 629 Classic I have came with a very smooth target double action; both are first shot accurate well past 100 yards.

Back in the day of .357mag issue, our department carried Remington 158gr SJHP, recoil had some snap in 4"/K-frames yet very controllable, very smooth from a 6"/M27. With proper training, speedloaders are just as fast, if not faster on target than magazine fed pistols.

Here are some calculated recoil numbers (RCBS software) from several .357mag bullet weights.

G17 serves as base;
G17 – 22oz./32oz. 124gr Golden Saber 1273fps; 8.6grs HS-7 PF 157.9
Recoil = 9.21ft/lbs, 20.8fps.

147gr Winchester JHP notched 1164fps, 6.6grs 3N38 PF 171.1
Recoil = 9.55ft/lbs, 21.1fps w/empty magazine<> 6.6ft/lbs, 14.5fps (12.2fps bullet – 2.3fps powder) with full magazine

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I don't have .357SIG numbers to compare with;

Now a comparison with S&W M686-plus combat/target revolver in .357mag;, another example using Sierra bullets higher velocity with less recoil in the 740fpe range..
M686-plus 6” 43oz .357mag

125gr Sierra JHP 1650fps/756fpe 18.7grs 2400;
Recoil = 10.31ft/lbs, 15.71fps.

125gr Sierra JHP 1640fps, 20.7grs W296,
Recoil = 10.89ft/lbs, 16.14fps

Two more grains of W296, slightly lower burn rate than 2400, resulted in increased recoil and a reduction of 10fps MV.

One of the issues with high velocity 125gr bullets and its corresponding heavier powder loadings with powders like W296 and H110, is the tendency for the gases to cut into the top strap. Since AA #9 has worked so well in certain .44mag loadings; it was applied to .357mag 125gr loads with excellent results. There was only 8fps difference between 17.4grs and 17.7grs, but . . ..
125gr Golden Saber JHP 1653fps/758fpe, 17.4grs AA #9, 5 shot string resulted in 1.61” group at 25yds, PF 205

Noting different bullet construction between Sierra and Remington GS, using the faster burning AA #9, MV was increased by 13fps using 3.4grs less powder (W296) and also reducing recoil by 1.2 ft/lbs

Recoil = 9.67ft/lbs, 15.21fps. (Lower recoil than the 230GS .45acp load using Blue Dot and the recoil of this loading matches up well with the G17/147gr combination).

140gr Remington SJHP 1510fps/708fpe, 16.6grs N110 (work-up loading)
Recoil = 9.85ft/lbs, 15.35fps.

Another manipulation of powder, upper end of AA #9 is 16.0grs, higher sectional density of the 158gr bullet, including 727fpe - with 125gr recoil.

158gr Winchester notched JHP, 1440fps/727fpe, 14.8grs AA #9, PF 227.5
Recoil = 10.49ft/lbs, 15.84fps

The great versatility of the .357mag includes the premium hunting design 180gr Partition (.202 sectional density) at a modest velocity.

180gr Nosler Partition JHP, 1280fps/655fpe, 13.5gr H110, PF 230.4

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Another top end performance comparison .40S&W,
Beretta M96 INOX, 33oz, 4.9” barrel, 3N38 – 10.2grs;

1313fps/632fpe PF 216.6

Recoil = 10.65ft/lbs, 18.23fps (14.97fps bullet, 3.26fps powder).

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What the 6" barrel loses on draw time, is made up on precise target acquisition, especially multiple targets

Comparing equivalent sectional densities, the .357mag/140gr had less recoil than the .40/180gr loading.

Rate of fire for the .357mag is about 4+ rounds per second making it an excellent self defense choice.

Bob :cowboy:

glock20c10mm
01-14-2010, 23:41
I also load for the .38 Super and can typically match up with Double Tap's published .357SIG MVs, the Super is one of my favorite calibers and I've carried it while hiking in active mountain lion country.

I chronographed some old tech (but extremely effective) Remington 125gr SJHPs from Walmart, 1465fps from a 4" Dan Wesson and 1610fps from a 6" M686 plus. Both the 686 and 629 Classic I have came with a very smooth target double action; both are first shot accurate well past 100 yards.

Back in the day of .357mag issue, our department carried Remington 158gr SJHP, recoil had some snap in 4"/K-frames yet very controllable, very smooth from a 6"/M27. With proper training, speedloaders are just as fast, if not faster on target than magazine fed pistols.

Here are some calculated recoil numbers (RCBS software) from several .357mag bullet weights.

G17 serves as base;
G17 – 22oz./32oz. 124gr Golden Saber 1273fps; 8.6grs HS-7 PF 157.9
Recoil = 9.21ft/lbs, 20.8fps.

147gr Winchester JHP notched 1164fps, 6.6grs 3N38 PF 171.1
Recoil = 9.55ft/lbs, 21.1fps w/empty magazine<> 6.6ft/lbs, 14.5fps (12.2fps bullet – 2.3fps powder) with full magazine

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I don't have .357SIG numbers to compare with;

Now a comparison with S&W M686-plus combat/target revolver in .357mag;, another example using Sierra bullets higher velocity with less recoil in the 740fpe range..
M686-plus 6” 43oz .357mag

125gr Sierra JHP 1650fps/756fpe 18.7grs 2400;
Recoil = 10.31ft/lbs, 15.71fps.

125gr Sierra JHP 1640fps, 20.7grs W296,
Recoil = 10.89ft/lbs, 16.14fps

Two more grains of W296, slightly lower burn rate than 2400, resulted in increased recoil and a reduction of 10fps MV.

One of the issues with high velocity 125gr bullets and its corresponding heavier powder loadings with powders like W296 and H110, is the tendency for the gases to cut into the top strap. Since AA #9 has worked so well in certain .44mag loadings; it was applied to .357mag 125gr loads with excellent results. There was only 8fps difference between 17.4grs and 17.7grs, but . . ..
125gr Golden Saber JHP 1653fps/758fpe, 17.4grs AA #9, 5 shot string resulted in 1.61” group at 25yds, PF 205

Noting different bullet construction between Sierra and Remington GS, using the faster burning AA #9, MV was increased by 13fps using 3.4grs less powder (W296) and also reducing recoil by 1.2 ft/lbs

Recoil = 9.67ft/lbs, 15.21fps. (Lower recoil than the 230GS .45acp load using Blue Dot and the recoil of this loading matches up well with the G17/147gr combination).

140gr Remington SJHP 1510fps/708fpe, 16.6grs N110 (work-up loading)
Recoil = 9.85ft/lbs, 15.35fps.

Another manipulation of powder, upper end of AA #9 is 16.0grs, higher sectional density of the 158gr bullet, including 727fpe - with 125gr recoil.

158gr Winchester notched JHP, 1440fps/727fpe, 14.8grs AA #9, PF 227.5
Recoil = 10.49ft/lbs, 15.84fps

The great versatility of the .357mag includes the premium hunting design 180gr Partition (.202 sectional density) at a modest velocity.

180gr Nosler Partition JHP, 1280fps/655fpe, 13.5gr H110, PF 230.4

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Another top end performance comparison .40S&W,
Beretta M96 INOX, 33oz, 4.9” barrel, 3N38 – 10.2grs;

1313fps/632fpe PF 216.6

Recoil = 10.65ft/lbs, 18.23fps (14.97fps bullet, 3.26fps powder).

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What the 6" barrel loses on draw time, is made up on precise target acquisition, especially multiple targets

Comparing equivalent sectional densities, the .357mag/140gr had less recoil than the .40/180gr loading.

Rate of fire for the .357mag is about 4+ rounds per second making it an excellent self defense choice.

Bob :cowboy:
Excellent Post Bob!!! :thumbsup:

Thanks for taking the time to put up all the math for us. Puts a lot into perspective many never even seriously think about.

If I may ask, in reference to the 165gr Gold Dot 10mm load you've handloaded in the past, I think with one of the VV powders (maybe 3N38), out of a G20, can you work up what the recoil number works out to be?


Thanks again,
Craig


PS - almost forgot, what velocity were you getting with that 165gr GD 10mm load from your G20?

Glolt20-91
01-14-2010, 23:50
A lot can happen when dealing with multiple assailants under high stress - just say'n.

I've been in multiple felon situations, but none chose to cross their mortal lines; there's true meaning to 'cold, blue steel.' Remington's 158gr SJHP (standard carry) was a single shot stopper in the half dozen or so OIS/self-home defense incidents I recollect. Exit wound splatter was exceptional, but I'm unable to compare those incidents with the 125gr/.357SIG OIS incidents.

I lived for those 'high stress' situations, for me, it was a time of absolute clarity when all hell was breaking loose around me. From my experiences, life boils down to inches and fractions of a second, a person may have to recognize and make critical decisions in about the same time as it takes for a shooting star to flash across the night sky.

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
01-15-2010, 00:24
Excellent Post Bob!!! :thumbsup:

Thanks for taking the time to put up all the math for us. Puts a lot into perspective many never even seriously think about.

If I may ask, in reference to the 165gr Gold Dot 10mm load you've handloaded in the past, I think with one of the VV powders (maybe 3N38), out of a G20, can you work up what the recoil number works out to be?


Thanks again,
Craig


PS - almost forgot, what velocity were you getting with that 165gr GD 10mm load from your G20?

Thank you Craig, the 165gr GD never made it to the 10mm, the front part of the bullet blew off at .40 carbine velocities and also with three straight .400 Corbon tests on water bottles.

Since the 10mm is often compared to the .357mag, here’s some recoil data with a G20/6” (six inch KKM), 29oz,
165gr Golden Saber, 1402fps/720fpe, AA #7 – 12.0grs; PF 231.3
Recoil = 14.46ft/lbs, 22.7fps (18.21fps bullet, 4.45fps powder).

Popular 180gr JHPs,
180gr Golden Saber, 1374fps/751fpe, AA #9 – 14.8grs; PF 247.3
Recoil = 17.6ft/lbs, 25.0fps (19.4fps bullet, 5.6fps powder)

Changing load to a faster powder w/o sacrificing MV – powder manipulation;
180gr Winchester JHP notched, 1373fps/751fpe, AA #7 11.4grs; PF 247.1 (MV with this powder weight and 180gr Golden Saber was 1347fps);
Recoil = 15.6ft/lbs, 23.5fps (19.4fps bullet, 4.1fps powder)

Notice the drop in recoil by switching to AA #7 powder.

Now, stock 4.6" barrel;
G20 180gr Gold Dot 4.6” barrel, 1314fps/690fpe, Longshot 9.3grs
Recoil = 14.0fpe, 22.7fps (19.25fps bullet, 3.45fps powder)

165gr Golden Saber, 1398fps/716fpe, Longshot 9.9grs
Recoil = 14.0fpe, 22.7fps (18.9fps bullet, 3.8fps powder)

Longshot is an excellent powder that give high MVs w/o higher pressures.

Bob :cowboy:

LEAD
01-15-2010, 09:38
Performance
Because of its relatively high velocity for a handgun round, the .357 SIG has a very flat trajectory, extending the effective range. However, it does not quite reach the performance of the .357 Magnum (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/.357_Magnum) with bullets heavier than 125 grains (8.1 g). Offsetting this general slight disadvantage in performance is that semi-automatic pistols tend to carry considerably more ammunition than revolvers.
Like the 7.62x25mm Tokarev (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/7.62x25mm_Tokarev), the .357 SIG works well when shooting through barriers. There has been a documented case in Texas where a police officer's .45 round did not penetrate a tractor-trailer's shell, but a .357 SIG round from a backup officer's gun did, killing the suspect inside. The round's ability to penetrate barriers is the main reason for its adoption by law enforcement agencies. However, other documented police shootings have confirmed the round's ability to not overpenetrate the body, even though ballistic gelatin shows 16 inches (410 mm) of penetration through heavy clothing (125 grain Speer Gold Dot). The Virginia State Police have had several documented officer-related shootings involving the .357 SIG, and in every case, not only were the suspects stopped instantly with one shot (except one who was shot several times while attempting to murder an officer), the bullet either did not exit the suspect, or was stopped in the clothing upon exiting, proving that even at such high velocities, the round when used with adequate expanding hollowpoints will not over penetrate soft tissue. The same department has also reported that attacking dogs have been stopped dead in their tracks by a single shot, whereas the former subsonic 147 grain 9 mm duty rounds would require multiple shots to incapacitate the animals.<SUP id=cite_ref-12 class=reference>[13] (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cite_note-12)</SUP> The energy available in the .357 SIG is sufficient for imparting hydrostatic shock (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock) with well designed bullets.<SUP id=cite_ref-arxiv.org_1-1 class=reference>[2] (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cite_note-arxiv.org-1)</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-Sturtevant_B_1998_2-1 class=reference>[3] (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cite_note-Sturtevant_B_1998-2)</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-13 class=reference>[14] (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cite_note-13)</SUP> Recent publication of human autopsy results has demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest with 9mm bullets.<SUP id=cite_ref-Krasja.2C_J_2009_3-1 class=reference>[4] (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cite_note-Krasja.2C_J_2009-3)</SUP>
The reputation that the .357 SIG round had for losing its crimp (allowing for bullet setback) was partially true when the cartridge was new and ammunition manufacturers were just beginning to produce the round. These problems have since been corrected by major manufacturers. As a result, the round now exhibits nominal setback characteristics, similar to other cartridges.<SUP style="WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" class="noprint Template-Fact" title="This claim needs references to reliable sources from November 2007">[citation needed (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]</SUP>
The bottleneck shape of the .357 SIG cartridge makes feeding problems almost non-existent.<SUP style="WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" class="noprint Template-Fact" title="This claim needs references to reliable sources from February 2009">[citation needed (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]</SUP> This is because the bullet is channeled through the larger chamber before being seated entirely as the slide goes into full battery. Flat point bullets are seldom used with other autoloader platforms because of feeding problems; however, such bullets are commonly seen in the .357 SIG chambering and are quite reliable, as are hollow-point bullets.
One disadvantage of the .357 SIG is that it fires a .355" bullet at higher velocities than most bullets of that caliber are designed for. Very few bullets have been designed specifically for the .357 SIG, and .357 Magnum bullets that are designed for the same velocity range cannot be used due to their slightly larger diameter. Because of this, there are fewer ammunition choices in .357 SIG than one might expect for a cartridge using .355" bullets.
Another potential drawback of the .357 SIG is its somewhat harsh treatment of pistols that are not designed to handle its high pressure that coupled to its case head area yields a high bolt (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/Bolt_(firearm)) thrust<SUP id=cite_ref-14 class=reference>[15] (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cite_note-14)</SUP> for a semi-automatic service handgun cartridge. Firing .357 SIG through modified pistols that were originally designed to fire the .40 S&W can accelerate wear.
The "Accurate Powder" reloading manuals claims that it is "without a doubt the most ballistically consistent handgun cartridge we have ever worked with."<SUP id=cite_ref-accurate_4-1 class=reference>[5] (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cite_note-accurate-4)</SUP>

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The SIG-Sauer P229 (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/P229) in .357 SIG is currently one of the standard issue firearms carried by special agents and Uniformed Division officers of the United States Secret Service (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/United_States_Secret_Service), the Bastrop County (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/Bastrop_County) Texas Sheriff's Office, the North Carolina State Highway Patrol (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/North_Carolina_State_Highway_Patrol), Delaware State Police (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/Delaware_State_Police), Rhode Island State Police (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/Rhode_Island_State_Police), Alameda County Sheriff's Office (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/Alameda_County_Sheriff%27s_Office), Virginia State Police (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/Virginia_State_Police), Federal Air Marshals (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/Federal_Air_Marshals) and the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration. The Pennsylvania Game Commission replaced the .357 Mag. with the .357 SIG. In most cases, it has replaced 10 mm, .40 S&W and 9 mm loads. In 1995, the Texas Department of Public Safety (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/Texas_Department_of_Public_Safety) became the first government agency to implement the .357 SIG. The Tennessee Highway Patrol (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/Tennessee_Highway_Patrol) presently issues the Glock 31 (http://glocktalk.com/wiki/Glock_31) pistol chambered in .357 SIG. The Bedford Heights Police Department (OH) currently issues the Glock 31/32 in .357 SIG. The Elloree Police Department in South Carolina Elloree Police (http://www.elloreesc.com/police.htm)also issues the Glock 31, .357 SIG and the Madison Police Department in Madison, WV issues the Glock 32 in .357 SIG. The Lexington Police Department in North Carolina issues the Sig P229 DAK in .357 Sig.

Wikipedia source

.45Super-Man
01-16-2010, 06:29
Yeah pretty much.

While that may be true, what does that make the 10mm?? The 10mm can launch wider/heavier bullets as fast as the .357SIG can 9mm bullets. So...what title shall we give to the 10mm??

.45Super-Man
01-16-2010, 06:31
I've been in multiple felon situations, but none chose to cross their mortal lines; there's true meaning to 'cold, blue steel.' Remington's 158gr SJHP (standard carry) was a single shot stopper in the half dozen or so OIS/self-home defense incidents I recollect. Exit wound splatter was exceptional, but I'm unable to compare those incidents with the 125gr/.357SIG OIS incidents.

I lived for those 'high stress' situations, for me, it was a time of absolute clarity when all hell was breaking loose around me. From my experiences, life boils down to inches and fractions of a second, a person may have to recognize and make critical decisions in about the same time as it takes for a shooting star to flash across the night sky.

Bob :cowboy:

You had me at "exit wound splatter", Bob. :embarassed:

Iceman cHucK
01-16-2010, 07:59
While that may be true, what does that make the 10mm?? The 10mm can launch wider/heavier bullets as fast as the .357SIG can 9mm bullets. So...what title shall we give to the 10mm??

World Champion of Pistols

Calibre Perfection

The "10" from 1 to 10

The Perfect 10

Uber Gun

unit1069
01-16-2010, 08:06
While that may be true, what does that make the 10mm?? The 10mm can launch wider/heavier bullets as fast as the .357SIG can 9mm bullets. So...what title shall we give to the 10mm??

I tweaked my G-32 by installing a Wolff stainless steel guide rod and a Wolff 20# spring. It made a noticeable difference in moderating the recoil.

Out of curiosity, has anyone tweaked a 10mm pistol and has it made a similar difference in the shooting characteristics? If the FBI was spooked by the original recoil characteristics of the first 10mm pistols maybe some slightly different modification(s) would bring it to optimum performance as far as recoil is concerned.

Free Radical
01-16-2010, 08:13
Out of curiosity, has anyone tweaked a 10mm pistol and has it made a similar difference in the shooting characteristics? If the FBI was spooked by the original recoil characteristics of the first 10mm pistols maybe some slightly different modification(s) would bring it to optimum performance as far as recoil is concerned.



My first 10mm was a Witness. It did just fine with the tame, off the shelf target ammo that is commonly available, but running hotter Double Tap ammo through it caused the slide to slam back with such force that it became immediately apparent that a stronger recoil spring was needed. I installed a 22lb. Wolff recoil spring and it has been fine since then.

c5367
01-16-2010, 08:15
is there a way to merge the 3 separate 357 Sig threads going on simultaneously?

c5367
01-16-2010, 08:20
I tweaked my G-32 by installing a Wolff stainless steel guide rod and a Wolff 20# spring. It made a noticeable difference in moderating the recoil.

Out of curiosity, has anyone tweaked a 10mm pistol and has it made a similar difference in the shooting characteristics? If the FBI was spooked by the original recoil characteristics of the first 10mm pistols maybe some slightly different modification(s) would bring it to optimum performance as far as recoil is concerned.

My first 10mm was a Witness. It did just fine with the tame, off the shelf target ammo that is commonly available, but running hotter Double Tap ammo through it caused the slide to slam back with such force that it became immediately apparent that a stronger recoil spring was needed. I installed a 22lb. Wolff recoil spring and it has been fine since then.

When I first got my G20 and fired full power 10mm with it, it was obvious the stock recoil spring was not up to the task. That stocker was in there only one range outing and was quickly replaced by a 20lbs spring, which was better, but brass was still being launched too far. I then put a 22lbs spring on it and it's been perfect. Recoil does seem tamer, as in more of a firm "push" than a sharp "snap." My tiny wife, who can't stand the sharper recoil impulse of 357 sig doesn't mind 1200fps 180gr 10mm for that reason.

glock20c10mm
01-16-2010, 13:48
Thank you Craig, the 165gr GD never made it to the 10mm, the front part of the bullet blew off at .40 carbine velocities and also with three straight .400 Corbon tests on water bottles.

Since the 10mm is often compared to the .357mag, here’s some recoil data with a G20/6” (six inch KKM), 29oz,
165gr Golden Saber, 1402fps/720fpe, AA #7 – 12.0grs; PF 231.3
Recoil = 14.46ft/lbs, 22.7fps (18.21fps bullet, 4.45fps powder).

Popular 180gr JHPs,
180gr Golden Saber, 1374fps/751fpe, AA #9 – 14.8grs; PF 247.3
Recoil = 17.6ft/lbs, 25.0fps (19.4fps bullet, 5.6fps powder)

Changing load to a faster powder w/o sacrificing MV – powder manipulation;
180gr Winchester JHP notched, 1373fps/751fpe, AA #7 11.4grs; PF 247.1 (MV with this powder weight and 180gr Golden Saber was 1347fps);
Recoil = 15.6ft/lbs, 23.5fps (19.4fps bullet, 4.1fps powder)

Notice the drop in recoil by switching to AA #7 powder.

Now, stock 4.6" barrel;
G20 180gr Gold Dot 4.6” barrel, 1314fps/690fpe, Longshot 9.3grs
Recoil = 14.0fpe, 22.7fps (19.25fps bullet, 3.45fps powder)

165gr Golden Saber, 1398fps/716fpe, Longshot 9.9grs
Recoil = 14.0fpe, 22.7fps (18.9fps bullet, 3.8fps powder)

Longshot is an excellent powder that give high MVs w/o higher pressures.

Bob :cowboy:

Thankyou, and my bad, I do remember, now that you mention the Golden Saber bullets, that those are what you had used in the G20. Thanks again for clarifing and putting up the numbers.

Good Shooting,
Craig