9mm 147 gr. +P+ Ammo is it safe for AR15 9mm [Archive] - Glock Talk

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smokin762
01-17-2010, 20:47
I went to the Gun Show recently and I seen some ammo that I was interested in and it was at a good price. I was wanting to know, if any one knows if it safe to shoot Israeli 147 grain +P+ 9mm ammunition in my Rock River Arms 9mm AR15. If it makes any difference, the box was marked “Not for Handguns, Machine Gun use only”.

I would think it would be less pressure than 5.56 ammo but I just wanted to check if anybody has any experience with it first. :dunno:

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Whazoo
01-18-2010, 09:36
I went to the Gun Show recently and I seen some ammo that I was interested in and it was at a good price. I was wanting to know, if any one knows if it safe to shoot Israeli 147 grain +P+ 9mm ammunition in my Rock River Arms 9mm AR15. If it makes any difference, the box was marked “Not for Handguns, Machine Gun use only”.

I would think it would be less pressure than 5.56 ammo but I just wanted to check if anybody has any experience with it first. :dunno:

Thanks for any help you can provide.

It works just fine - shoot it. BTW it's a pistol round, therefore it has a whole lot less pressure than the 5.56 - but if I follow your logic here... the actions on these two AR's are like comparing apples and oranges - the 9mm is a blowback, designed for low pressure pistol rounds. The 5.56 uses a locked breech that momentarily delays the bolt's rearward motion until pressures drop to a safe level. Therefore if you were to fire a rifle level pressured round in the staple-gun..., you'd likely need staples afterwards to help hold your scalp/face together...:faint:

smokin762
01-18-2010, 22:05
It works just fine - shoot it. BTW it's a pistol round, therefore it has a whole lot less pressure than the 5.56 - but if I follow your logic here... the actions on these two AR's are like comparing apples and oranges - the 9mm is a blowback, designed for low pressure pistol rounds. The 5.56 uses a locked breech that momentarily delays the bolt's rearward motion until pressures drop to a safe level. Therefore if you were to fire a rifle level pressured round in the staple-gun..., you'd likely need staples afterwards to help hold your scalp/face together...:faint:

I know the 9mm AR is a blowback system and it is not the same as a DI gas system in my AR15 but I just was not sure about the +P+ round. I was thinking it should run fine but I was not sure if it would cause any damage to the upper receiver.

I have heard it will run very dirty but at the price, I have seen it for, I am more than willing to clean it after each trip to the range.

I have seen some ammo similar on Gun Broker and I asked the Seller if it would be okay to run it through my 9mm AR and he said he has used it in a Browning High Power and it did not hurt it. He said it did have a huge flame come out the barrel though. If I get it, I will just use it in my AR.:dunno:

Gonetodarkside
01-18-2010, 22:13
I have an AR with a carbon fiber 9mm pistol upper reciever that I shoot .223 out of. Think its gonna blow?

smokin762
01-18-2010, 23:17
I have an AR with a carbon fiber 9mm pistol upper reciever that I shoot .223 out of. Think its gonna blow?

Thanks for your answer. :upeyes:

Gonetodarkside
01-18-2010, 23:18
Thanks for your answer. :upeyes:


i was being serious.

smokin762
01-19-2010, 00:33
i was being serious.

I was concerned because it stated on the box it was not for handguns and I am not sure if it would do anything to my AR.

I know the 9mm is a pistol cartridge and it would have less pressure than a .223 round.

I am looking for somebody that has had experience using the +P+ ammo in their AR. A simple answer of yes it is ok but it runs dirty and you might want to watch out for wear on this or that would be appreciated.

If somebody has had problems with it than I would like to hear about it. This way I can decide if it is cost effective to buy it. :faint:

JDG
01-19-2010, 04:10
If in doubt, call Rock River:cool:

The chamber is pretty stout, dont think you'll have any issues. The blowback design runs filthy anyways, not gonnna be any dirtier.

Alaskapopo
01-19-2010, 04:16
I went to the Gun Show recently and I seen some ammo that I was interested in and it was at a good price. I was wanting to know, if any one knows if it safe to shoot Israeli 147 grain +P+ 9mm ammunition in my Rock River Arms 9mm AR15. If it makes any difference, the box was marked “Not for Handguns, Machine Gun use only”.

I would think it would be less pressure than 5.56 ammo but I just wanted to check if anybody has any experience with it first. :dunno:

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Don't shoot it unless you have a modified longer buffer if not you will break your bolt stop. Ask me how I know?
Pat

pgg00
01-19-2010, 04:22
Don't shoot it unless you have a modified longer buffer if not you will break your bolt stop. Ask me how I know?
Pat

How do you know? :whistling: :supergrin:

Alaskapopo
01-19-2010, 05:15
How do you know? :whistling: :supergrin:

When I first got my RRA I fired a few hundred rounds of +p+ 127 grain ammo and it broke my bolt stop. I since got a Slash buffer for it and have not had a problem after that.
Pat

smokin762
01-19-2010, 07:55
When I first got my RRA I fired a few hundred rounds of +p+ 127 grain ammo and it broke my bolt stop. I since got a Slash buffer for it and have not had a problem after that.
Pat

Thank you sir. This is the kind of answer’s I was looking for.

I did a search on the internet for the Slash Buffer but I did not come up with anything. Could you point me in the right direction for one? Thank you.

Oh, I wanted to add I have the tel stock on my RRA. Can I still use this type of buffer since it is longer?

smokin762
01-19-2010, 08:19
If in doubt, call Rock River:cool:

The chamber is pretty stout, dont think you'll have any issues. The blowback design runs filthy anyways, not gonnna be any dirtier.

I would call RRA but I am sure they would say no because of legal liability issues, even if it were perfectly fine. I can understand that.

I kind of figured the Chamber and the Receiver could handle the +P+ pistol ammo but, I was just not sure if it would create any unwanted problems like having parts break. My thought on high-pressure pistol ammo is I don’t want to mess up a perfectly good firearm because I found some cheap ammo.

Now that I have been told to replace the Buffer and everything will be fine, I am jumping on the +P+ ammo.

Will it shoot any better? Will it have better self-defensive super powers? I don’t know but it is at a good price and it will be nice for practice ammo.:supergrin:

Alaskapopo
01-19-2010, 11:57
Thank you sir. This is the kind of answer’s I was looking for.

I did a search on the internet for the Slash Buffer but I did not come up with anything. Could you point me in the right direction for one? Thank you.

Oh, I wanted to add I have the tel stock on my RRA. Can I still use this type of buffer since it is longer?

http://www.heavybuffers.com/ar15carbine.html

smokin762
01-19-2010, 23:35
http://www.heavybuffers.com/ar15carbine.html

Thank you, this what I need to know. I will order one next payday.

I hate to keep bothering you but, when you shoot regular ammo out of it do you have to change back to the original buffer or is this new buffer good to go with all ammo. Thanks.

Alaskapopo
01-20-2010, 00:10
Thank you, this what I need to know. I will order one next payday.

I hate to keep bothering you but, when you shoot regular ammo out of it do you have to change back to the original buffer or is this new buffer good to go with all ammo. Thanks.

The main thing is don't shoot mags that lock the bolt back as this is what puts the most stress on the bolt stop.
Pat

smokin762
01-20-2010, 00:40
The main thing is don't shoot mags that lock the bolt back as this is what puts the most stress on the bolt stop.
Pat

This will not be a problem for me then. I use Pro Mag mags. They are the best that I could come up with, without breaking the bank.

When I first bought the rifle I bought three converted Uzi mags from RRA and three from Shurluk. I had problems with all but one mag. Two of them the followers would stick and the last five rounds would not come up far enough for the bolt to pick it up. I had two that I could not load more than 10 rounds into it because the follower was binding up. The final straw for me was the one mag was a hit and a miss. I sent them all back and bought the cheap mags.:dunno:

So far they have worked fine but the the mags don't have a bolt hold open on them.

Alaskapopo
01-20-2010, 01:45
This will not be a problem for me then. I use Pro Mag mags. They are the best that I could come up with, without breaking the bank.

When I first bought the rifle I bought three converted Uzi mags from RRA and three from Shurluk. I had problems with all but one mag. Two of them the followers would stick and the last five rounds would not come up far enough for the bolt to pick it up. I had two that I could not load more than 10 rounds into it because the follower was binding up. The final straw for me was the one mag was a hit and a miss. I sent them all back and bought the cheap mags.:dunno:

So far they have worked fine but the the mags don't have a bolt hold open on them.

Funny the Pro mags I had locked the bolt back.
Pat

JDG
01-20-2010, 04:35
I too broke a mag catch once. A spacer behind the buffer spring worked, that only let the bolt clear the catch by a few thousands, maybe .020".

I also have resorted back to modded Uzi mags, found them 100% reliable shooting 115gr HPs.

Good luck!!

smokin762
01-20-2010, 09:18
Funny the Pro mags I had locked the bolt back.
Pat

I bought 10 Pro Mag magazines at the Gun Show three years ago. Could there be a chance they are factory 2nds or 1st gen. magazines?

I just tried one. The bolt didn't stay back. Now I am wondering if I already did something to it. So far I have been only using Seller & Bellot and WWB ammo. I'll have to take it apart to check it out this weekend. Crap! :faint:

KalashniKEV
01-20-2010, 11:45
if any one knows if it safe to shoot Israeli 147 grain +P+ 9mm ammunition in my Rock River Arms 9mm AR15.

I say yes.

It was most likely designed for the Uzi, and although the F/A operation shouldn't have much to do with it except increasing the level of heat, I believe the closed bolt operation of the AR to be more secure than the open bolt Uzi.

Then again there is the question of the spring pressure being much higher on the Uzi... but I think it's OK.

I've run a lot of +P 124 Federal Hydra Shok through my 9mm AR and I've probably done some +P+ too... I think.

What was the price, BTW?
:cool:


I have an AR with a carbon fiber 9mm pistol upper reciever that I shoot .223 out of. Think its gonna blow?

Do you not understand "locked breach" vs. "straight blowback???"


I know the 9mm is a pistol cartridge and it would have less pressure than a .223 round.

Refer to OP... this 9x19mm is NOT a pistol round. That's why he's posting on the internet with a question.


When I first got my RRA I fired a few hundred rounds of +p+ 127 grain ammo and it broke my bolt stop.

I would like to know what block the OP is using... I rock HYtech, so no issues at all with the boltstop. Lots of cheap, high quality mags too!

KalashniKEV
01-20-2010, 11:53
he said he has used it in a Browning High Power and it did not hurt it.


I actually find that kind of funny b/c the BHP is the most "wrecked by +P" pistol out there... unfortunately this only effects the classic models...

:crying:

Gonetodarkside
01-20-2010, 15:26
Do you not understand "locked breach" vs. "straight blowback???"






I posed an honest question, I guess I didnt need to. Sorry for bumping the guys thread, can you answer my question?

Alaskapopo
01-20-2010, 16:01
Actually its not an issue of locked breach vs straight blow back. Its a bit more complicated. Its an issue of straight blow back vs a gas operated semi auto which does use a locked breach. On pistol caliber AR's most use a blow back action meaning the only thing holding the round in the chamber until pressures drop is just spring pressure and bolt mass. If you fire too powerful of a round in a blow back the case will come back too soon and you will have case failures and might even get injuried. On gas operated AR's The bolt is locked into place until the pressure drops to a safe level and the bullet exits the barrel and then and only the does the bolt group move backward to eject the round. If you fired a .223 as a blowback you would have a bomb next to your face. The two actons work completely differently and its fruitless to compare pressures between the two rounds in different operating systems. The 9mm is actually harder on the AR as bolt speed is higher as is recoil. Due to the way the gun works.
Pat

smokin762
01-20-2010, 23:31
I say yes.

It was most likely designed for the Uzi, and although the F/A operation shouldn't have much to do with it except increasing the level of heat, I believe the closed bolt operation of the AR to be more secure than the open bolt Uzi.

Then again there is the question of the spring pressure being much higher on the Uzi... but I think it's OK.

I've run a lot of +P 124 Federal Hydra Shok through my 9mm AR and I've probably done some +P+ too... I think.

What was the price, BTW?
:cool:

A guy that I have bought a lot of stuff from at the Gun Show offered me a case of it. It is lose in a steel ammo box. He told me he bought it about three years ago and never used it. I think he needs the money. He said I could have it for $175.00. I told him, I had to find out if it was okay to shoot in my rifle first. :dunno:

smokin762
01-20-2010, 23:49
Funny the Pro mags I had locked the bolt back.
Pat

I kept thinking about why the bolt would not hold back with the Pro Mags at work tonight. This was bugging bad. When I came home, I opened up the 9mm AR to inspect it. I could not find anything wrong with it.

I then checked the magazines. I always thought they were like the Uzi mags, which does not hold open the bolt either. I stuck the mag in the rifle and seen there was no place fore the bolt hold open to catch onto the magazine.

I took a picture of it so that you could compare it to yours. Any information would be great. Thanks.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=683&pictureid=2500

smokin762
01-21-2010, 00:01
I actually find that kind of funny b/c the BHP is the most "wrecked by +P" pistol out there... unfortunately this only effects the classic models...

:crying:

I find it hard to believe that it is okay to shoot this ammo in a pistol. A few months ago, I read an article about the M9 and when it went through testing, I think in the early eighties. It said that the military was using hot ammo and they had problems with the slides cracking. I believe the article said they use a load with less pressure now.

Alaskapopo
01-21-2010, 04:14
I kept thinking about why the bolt would not hold back with the Pro Mags at work tonight. This was bugging bad. When I came home, I opened up the 9mm AR to inspect it. I could not find anything wrong with it.

I then checked the magazines. I always thought they were like the Uzi mags, which does not hold open the bolt either. I stuck the mag in the rifle and seen there was no place fore the bolt hold open to catch onto the magazine.

I took a picture of it so that you could compare it to yours. Any information would be great. Thanks.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=683&pictureid=2500
I sold my 9mm AR and all the mags to help fund my Saiga 12 work that is being done.
Pat

smokin762
01-21-2010, 09:14
I sold my 9mm AR and all the mags to help fund my Saiga 12 work that is being done.
Pat

LOL! I have done the same thing before.

I want to thank you for your help. I am going to take your advice and get the Slash Buffer. I am also going to buy the ammo this weekend at the show but I will hold off on shooting it until I have replaced the Buffer.:wavey:

KalashniKEV
01-23-2010, 12:46
I posed an honest question, I guess I didnt need to. Sorry for bumping the guys thread, can you answer my question?

I read your "think it's gonna blow" as sarcasm... as in you weren't really asking if it would actually blow up.

It was an apples to oranges comparison.

KalashniKEV
01-23-2010, 12:59
I find it hard to believe that it is okay to shoot this ammo in a pistol. A few months ago, I read an article about the M9 and when it went through testing, I think in the early eighties. It said that the military was using hot ammo and they had problems with the slides cracking. I believe the article said they use a load with less pressure now.

Yeah, the +P+ is a no-go on any pistol. The +P through a gun that was designed and spec'd in a pre +P world is just a related issue.

The service trial M-9s were 92Fs and the 92FS revision addressed this.

Then again, A363 has a funny spec, or they just don't care anymore b/c sometimes it's 115gr and sometimes it's 124gr.

I pull this from the webz:



Cartridge designation: US M882 ball
Cartridge OAL:1.165inches or 29.591mm
Powder used: HPC-26
Powder weight used: 6.0 grains
Case Mouth Pressure: 31,175psi (avg), 36,250psi (max)
Bullet weight: 112 grains
Bullet length: .610 inches or 15.494mm
Bullet velocity: 1263fps measured @ 15 feet




MARKET SURVEY AND REQUEST FOR INFORMATION: Information is being collected for market survey purposes and not as a request for proposal or as an obligation on part of the Government (USG). The USG does not intend to award a contract on the basis of t his survey and will not pay for information solicited. Please identify proprietary information. All submitted information will be retained in the Contract Office as market research but will not be released to the public. ITEM: 9mm Ball, DODIC A363, NSN 1305-01-172-9558. This round has a 124 grain Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) projectile used for anti-personnel and training. The cartridges are packed in 50 round cardboard cartons, M2A1 ammunition boxes, then wire bound boxes. While there are no firm require ments at this time, the requirement could be for approximately 239,000,000 rounds over five years. The USG has no intention of waiving any technical data package requirements and does not intend to provide any GFM (Government Furnished Materials). The Arm y Field Support Command is seeking sources capable of meeting subject requirements. Interested sources should submit concept papers outlining its capabilities to meet the Armys potential requirements. Concept papers should identify business structure, s ize and status, production capabilities (equipment, technical, production rate capabilities identifying minimum and maximums, quality system utilized, etc.) and past experience with same or similar items. NLT COB 16 May 2005, interested sources should E-M ail concept papers to Bruce.Kellums@us.army.mil, or mailed to SFSJM-LGI, Attention of Bruce Kellums, 1 Rock Island Arsenal, Building 350, 5th Floor, Pillar E12, Rock Island, IL 61299-6000. Direct all questions to Bruce Kellums (309) 782-0089, FAX (309) 78 2-2083. THANK YOU FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION IN THIS SURVEY.

Original Point of Contact

Place of Performance

Address:
U.S. Army Field Support Command ATTN: AMSFS-CCA-F Rock Island IL
61299-6500, US"




TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
PARAMETERS
CATALOG NO. 10-111-A
BULLET WEIGHT 115 GRAIN 7.45 GRAM
BULLET TYPE
BALL
*MUZZLE VELOCITY(V16m) 1280 FT/SEC 390 M/SEC
*MUZZLE ENERGY 417 FT-LBS 567 JOULES
*PRESSURE:
MAXIMUM PROBABLE
MAXIMUM INDIVIDUAL
230 MPa
265 MPa

2340 KG/CM�
2700 KG/CM�
PENETRATION & ACCURACY
I.A.W. STANAG 4090

* TESTED WITH 7.85" EPVAT BARREL.
# THIS CARTRIDGE COMPLIES WITH STANAG 4090