Bushmaster ACR coming out before Remington ACR??? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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mangkukhan
01-18-2010, 19:26
Well it's official Bushmaster has the countdown clock for about midnight tonight to be the release of the new Bushmaster ACR. It's sounding off however at over 8lbs with a 1:9 twist and tagged with a $2700 msrp. Remington quoted the msrp at $2300 originally which is obviously high, and the twist rate listed for the Remington ACR is 1:7. Magpul's reps are also commenting on the listed weight as being too high. Not sure what to make of it unless Bushmaster is putting to market a rifle that isn't what Remington will market to the military and law enforcement. I really hope if this is what Bushmaster is dropping on the market then Remington puts out one as well with better barrels and hopefully weighing less. For four times the cost of a basic AR they better get their **** together. Just another reason for me to keep looking at an XCR.

B.Reid
01-18-2010, 19:49
:wow:

deMontacute
01-18-2010, 20:23
Unless you are buying on LEO letterhead or .mil, you will not be allowed to place your unwashed hands on the Remington version.

RMTactical
01-18-2010, 20:40
A damn shame.

furioso2112
01-18-2010, 21:17
If that's true (and I believe it is), then....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Somebody got their hopes up when they saw the FN SCAR sell for $5k or whatever when the first few trickled in last year about this time.

No offense to whomever wants one/buys one/whatever, but I gave up on the idea about 4 seconds after I learned that Magpul turned it over to a corporate-owned entity.

Interchangeable barrels - how many does it come with at that price tag? Is that for .308 and 5.56 (or did they actually just chamber it for .223 for the civvies?)? If it comes with a couple cases of ammo for each caliber and 15 mags each caliber, well then, it's probably a deal. Maybe it is anway. I haven't followed it for months.

Edit: Okay, just went to the BM site. No info on it (I didn't look too hard), but I saw no specs. It looks like it is piston-driven, folding UBR stock, PMag, Magpul grip, monolithic rail. Some nice features, and unless they changed from the original design 'leaks' then it is ambidextrous controls and all. Not going to part with $2700 for one. All I can think of is what I could build/put together for that price.

I wonder how long before the .22LR version comes out?

Quiet
01-18-2010, 22:45
Cerberus Capital Management Group owns Remington and Bushmaster.
Remington is handling all military and government sales.
Bushmaster is handling all civilian sales.

Quiet
01-18-2010, 22:49
Note parts in bold.


Bushmaster® Announces Revolutionary Adaptive Combat Rifle (ACR™)
Fully-Modular, Mission-Configurable and Torture Tested (http://www.bushmaster.com/Press-release-11810.asp)

Windham, ME – The Adaptive Combat Rifle (ACR) was conceived to provide a more reliable, accurate and mission-configurable, American-made rifle platform for today’s military, law enforcement agencies and commercial tactical markets. The ACR is specifically designed to meet the challenges of the modern battlefield from close-quarters applications to the long-range marksman; configured in the field without the use of tools. Three American companies – Magpul Industries Corp, Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC (BFI) and Remington Arms Company, Inc. – shared a common design vision to put the best, most versatile rifle into the hands of the US Military. With emerging concept designs and after rigorous testing, Bushmaster, Magpul® and Remington® utilized the strongest materials and components to produce the most innovative and adaptable combat rifle yet – the ACR for military, law enforcement and commercial applications.

The ACR offers the ability to change calibers from 5.56mm/223 Rem to 6.8mm Rem SPC in minutes by swapping the bolt head, barrel and magazine. Barrels, stocks, and accessories can also be changed, without tools, at the user level allowing the ACR to go from a close-quarters battle platform to a designated marksman platform. The ACR gives the operator all of the options needed, while utilizing a superbly reliable gas piston operating system, fire selector capability, a non-reciprocating charging handle and intuitive, ambidextrous controls on a platform that is a natural fit for any operator.

Standard core features of the ACR include 16.5-inch, cold hammer-forged barrel system, featuring proprietary protective coating for enhanced barrel life and maintenance reduction, with quick-change 10.5, 14.5 and 18-inch barrel length options in multiple calibers; A2 “birdcage-type” suppressor for muzzle blast reduction; adjustable, 2-position gas-piston system to support suppressed or unsuppressed firing; hardened internal bearing rails; bolt carrier assemblies for 223.5.56mm NATO to 6.8mm Rem SPC; ambidextrous operator controls for magazine release, bolt catch and release, fire selector and non-reciprocating charging handle; hand guard, lower receiver and stock constructed from a rugged high-impact composite; and to further enhance operation and reduce wear, all action components feature our innovative protective coating.

Added to the core platform features of this fully-adaptable rifle are free-floating MIL-STD 1913 monolithic top rail for optics mounting; enhanced hand guard with heat shield and acceptance of rail inserts; functional lower receiver design with textured magazine well and easily-accessible, modular grip storage; A-frame style stock with rubber butt pad and sling attachment mounts; Magpul MBUS front and rear flip sights; and 30-round PMAG. Mission-ready, all ACR components ship in an oversized, hard case with room for accessory storage.

The Bushmaster ACR for the commercial market is available in the Basic and Enhanced configurations. The additional features for the Enhanced version include an AAC® Blackout™ NSM Flash Hider for exceptional reduction of muzzle flash; multi-functional, three-sided aluminum hand guard with integral MIL-STD 1913 accessory rail; and folding, six-position telescoping composite stock with rubber butt pad, sling attachment mounts and 2-point push button sling. Each configuration of the commercial ACR is offered in a non-reflective, black finish or Coyote Brown (30118). Suggested retail price: Basic $2,685 and Enhanced $3,061.

By combining dedicated, multi-brand research and development; relentless iterations of torture testing; and the most advanced materials available in the market today with Bushmaster’s uncompromising commitment to quality construction - the result is the ultimate, fully-modular, combat-adaptable Bushmaster ACR.

PLEASE NOTE: Bushmaster will sell the ACR to commercial customers and state and local law enforcement agencies. Initial shipments for the Basic commercial configuration are slated for March 1, 2010; followed by release of the Enhanced commercial version on May, 1, 2010. Versions for the law enforcement community are configured for the unique operators’ requirements and restricted for sale. Remington Arms Company, Inc. will sell the Remington branded ACR to US Military, US Federal Agencies and select foreign militaries.

Atlas
01-18-2010, 23:10
Yeah, the price is extreme, especially since it was designed from the beginning to be easy to manufacture.


I think the basic AR does a fine job, but if the ACR doesn't eventually become the US military's new issue rifle, then something is wrong somewhere. That rifle/carbine is smart, just plain smart. It's one of the most carefully and creatively designed firearms ever.

I admit to wanting one for myself, but a plain AR will do everything I need.
What I want even more is for this thing to prove itself and be issued to our troops, because as good as the AR/M16 is this rifle should prove to be better, much better and I want our military to have the best.

Time will tell.

Chuck TX
01-18-2010, 23:24
1/9 twist and those prices just for the basic? That's two major failures right there. :faint:

If that's true they really dropped the ball. Not surprised since Magpul turned it over to Bushmaster. Bet it has a nice finish though. :rofl:

BEER
01-18-2010, 23:52
for 2700 i can get a "used"* piston ar with all the bells and whistles already installed, spare mags, and probably some ammo. the acr is officially off my wish list.


by "used" i mean some schmuck sank 3k into a rifle he only wanted because everybody else on arfcom had one, then his wife found out and skinned his ass so he put a box of ammo through it and now has to let it go for 2k. lol

Krigloch
01-18-2010, 23:56
I was all for saving up for an ACR, but there's no way im throwing down that much for a rifle.

RMTactical
01-19-2010, 00:54
Yeah, the price is extreme, especially since it was designed from the beginning to be easy to manufacture.


I think the basic AR does a fine job, but if the ACR doesn't eventually become the US military's new issue rifle, then something is wrong somewhere. That rifle/carbine is smart, just plain smart. It's one of the most carefully and creatively designed firearms ever.

I admit to wanting one for myself, but a plain AR will do everything I need.
What I want even more is for this thing to prove itself and be issued to our troops, because as good as the AR/M16 is this rifle should prove to be better, much better and I want our military to have the best.

Time will tell.

Change comes slowly in the military unless something shows a clear cut advantage over what is being currently used. There is nothing with a huge upside over the M16/M4 platforms. I don't see those being replaced any time soon.

ScrapMetal
01-19-2010, 10:44
Count me out with that price.....total bummer!

NeverMore1701
01-19-2010, 11:34
Damn. When Magpul first announced the Masada I thought it was really cool concept with a very good chance of being great. As more time passed, more "progress" was made, the less interested I became. Now, on the eve of it's release, I couldn't care less. Sad.

jetdefiant
01-19-2010, 12:35
if the current info continues to hold true, then bushmaster really really dropped the ball. This could have been epic

Chuck TX
01-19-2010, 12:38
Word is the dealer cost is going to be ~$2100 for the basic model (no folding stock, etc.). It truly is way over priced and the $2700 MSRP was real after all. As much as or more than the SCAR for less features and the wrong twist. I knew they'd screw something up, but over $2K for sub-par? Just damn. Bushmaster FTL!

Wonder what Magpul is thinking right about now.

mvician
01-19-2010, 12:40
Damn. When Magpul first announced the Masada I thought it was really cool concept with a very good chance of being great. As more time passed, more "progress" was made, the less interested I became. Now, on the eve of it's release, I couldn't care less. Sad.

if the current info continues to hold true, then bushmaster really really dropped the ball. This could have been epic


my thoughts/feelings exactly

Justin1911
01-19-2010, 12:46
Couldn't care less

Krigloch
01-19-2010, 12:47
The thing is, WHO is going to actually buy this thing?
Makes no sense.

RMTactical
01-19-2010, 17:20
The thing is, WHO is going to actually buy this thing?
Makes no sense.

Almost nobody. This rifle went from extremely promising to almost a joke. It could have been big but the price tag and a few other things simply killed it.

skippz
01-19-2010, 18:23
just curious what was the ideal twist everyone was hoping for???

Randolph da man
01-19-2010, 19:12
Almost nobody. This rifle went from extremely promising to almost a joke. It could have been big but the price tag and a few other things simply killed it.

yup.
I have no interest in spending that much mula on another 5.56 AR.
I'll stick with my Noveske's :whistling:

Blah!
01-19-2010, 19:21
The thing is, WHO is going to actually buy this thing?
Makes no sense.


The .gov will buy it with your money at the exploded prices forged by the Magpul/Cerbus union.

g21owner
01-19-2010, 20:21
just curious what was the ideal twist everyone was hoping for???

1 in 7 probably...

Chuck TX
01-19-2010, 22:54
just curious what was the ideal twist everyone was hoping for???

1/7 twist is generally considered ideal for heavier combat type weighted loads (62gr-77gr, etc.) BUT since Bushmaster typically uses 1/9 twist in their ARs they probably figured they'd just use the same barrels they had already. Which should have made it cost less, but apparently they didn't think so. Guess they believed people would be dumb enough to over pay for an Adaptive Combat Rifle with a 1/9 twist and a fixed stock. Just plain nutty.

Javelin
01-19-2010, 23:18
yup.
I have no interest in spending that much mula on another 5.56 AR.
I'll stick with my Noveske's :whistling:

This.

oem3105
01-21-2010, 11:37
Here's Remington's promotion video...before it gets pulled!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLy3xABAsEc

humanguerrilla
01-21-2010, 17:38
.........

Nicoroshi
01-21-2010, 18:04
I too was very interested in this when it was the Magpul Masada. Now I can sum up my feelings on it in one word......"Meh!"

PlasticGuy
01-22-2010, 11:24
I just got back from Shot, and the ACR was the biggest disappointment there. Yes, the design is very intelligent. Yes, it is very modular. However, everything else was bad news.

The Remington version will only be available to military and probably only in select fire.

The Bushmaster version will be the LE and civilian version, and comes with a 1:9 twist M4 (heavy) barrel with no chrome lining. The rep said it does have a "secret coating" in it. I asked if it was a hard coating or a metal treatment like nitriding, and he said he couldn't say, but it was good. I asked, "So it's better than chrome lining, but you can't tell me what it is or why I should believe you?" He just shrugged. Okay. I asked him about the logic of a 1:9" twist, and he just shrugged that one off also. Also, the pricing rumors are correct. The model that everyone will want with the folding stock and railed forend does have an MSRP of over $3000. Finally, they added enough metal up front with the heavy barrel, QD ratchet system, and beefed up forend that it now specs out at 8.25 muzzle heavy pounds.

Rumor at the show was that the MagPul people are pissed off to an epic degree about the whole thing, and that the .308 caliber Masoud will be either produced in house or outside by just about anybody but Remington/Bushmaster. Imagine that. They took a platform with awesome potential and turned it into a white elephant.

Daekwan
01-22-2010, 11:37
I just got back from Shot, and the ACR was the biggest disappointment there. Yes, the design is very intelligent. Yes, it is very modular. However, everything else was bad news.

The Remington version will only be available to military and probably only in select fire.

The Bushmaster version will be the LE and civilian version, and comes with a 1:9 twist M4 (heavy) barrel with no chrome lining. The rep said it does have a "secret coating" in it. I asked if it was a hard coating or a metal treatment like nitriding, and he said he couldn't say, but it was good. I asked, "So it's better than chrome lining, but you can't tell me what it is or why I should believe you?" He just shrugged. Okay. I asked him about the logic of a 1:9" twist, and he just shrugged that one off also. Also, the pricing rumors are correct. The model that everyone will want with the folding stock and railed forend does have an MSRP of over $3000. Finally, they added enough metal up front with the heavy barrel, QD ratchet system, and beefed up forend that it now specs out at 8.25 muzzle heavy pounds.

Rumor at the show was that the MagPul people are pissed off to an epic degree about the whole thing, and that the .308 caliber Masoud will be either produced in house or outside by just about anybody but Remington/Bushmaster. Imagine that. They took a platform with awesome potential and turned it into a white elephant.

Best news I've heard all day!

PlasticGuy
01-22-2010, 12:08
Best news I've heard all day!
Yeah, but keep in mind that I didn't hear it from MagPul themselves. They were very tight lipped about the ACR project. It was other large vendors who knew the MagPul people personally who told me that information second hand. I would consider it reliable, but it's not directly from the primary source.

Glockdude1
01-22-2010, 12:27
$3061 for the "enhanced" version???

:headscratch:

Chuck TX
01-22-2010, 12:48
Rumor at the show was that the MagPul people are pissed off to an epic degree about the whole thing, and that the .308 caliber Masoud will be either produced in house or outside by just about anybody but Remington/Bushmaster. Imagine that. They took a platform with awesome potential and turned it into a white elephant.

That's what I've been wondering. Most folks have been quite fond of Magpul to at least some degree, but they certainly took a massive hit with this debacle. Why they chose a company that did the same thing to a 308 AR is beyond me. Hell, even if they'd given it to Oly the specs would still suck, but at least they could have done it for under the claimed price point. :rofl:

That's the thing with the whole ordeal. If they had built it with mo better specs they could have gotten away with a somewhat higher price, or if they'd hit the price point they could have Bushmastered a spec or two. They doubled the price point and Bushmastered the crap out of the specs, and two wrongs don't make a right.

A 308 ACR would be sweet if they could do it properly and actually hit a determined price point.

PlasticGuy
01-22-2010, 12:54
$3061 for the "enhanced" version???
That's what Bushmaster told me yesterday at SHOT. Dealer price is high enough that the good version can't sell for less than about $2800 on the open market. The "base model" might actually retail for about the same price as a SCAR ($2500 or so), but it won't have a railed forend or folding/adjustable stock. Remington/Bushmaster have lost their minds. Unless they nail a big government contract, they'll wind up with a huge warehouse full of overpriced ACR's within a few months of release.

CW Mock
01-22-2010, 13:58
They must be out of their collective minds.

I'm LEO, so I can offer some perspective there ... not a cop I know can afford something in that price range, and 99% of us are not allowed or don't need select fire ... so there goes the Remington version. And then when you consider BOTH of them, or the ACR in general are unproven, heavy rifles, why would we buy one? A cop doesn't make much, and for half the price of an ACR, the same cop can get a great AR and great optic. The ACR looks like it comes with a set of cheap Magpul BUIS.

I thought the original Masada design didn't have a quad rail forend, but a more standard one you could attach rails as needed to. What happened there, and how did a plastic and alloy rifle somehow manage to end up approaching the weight of my M14?

Wow. The Remington is priced way too high for cops, and the military for general use and issue, and the Bushmaster is heavy and offers stupid things like 1/9 barrels. Plus you pay over 3k for a folding stock version, rails and a nifty flash hider?

What an insult. Shame on Magpul for selling out on their original design to "Freedom Group" or WTF ever they are this year. Somebody up there needs to lay off the crack pipe, and realize they are charging above premium for an unproven, bastardized piston rifle in a market loaded with them, and that the current champ, the AR15 is not going to be even remotely threatened by their product as is. Hell, right now I am not even sure it gives the FN-SCAR or HK-416 much to worry about.

Maybe if that "thing" they call the ACR was anything like Masada Magpul hyped, I would buy one. A 12-1500 dollar, truly adaptable combat rifle would be something to be reckoned with.

deMontacute
01-22-2010, 16:40
They must be out of their collective minds.

I'm LEO, so I can offer some perspective there ... not a cop I know can afford something in that price range, and 99% of us are not allowed or don't need select fire ... so there goes the Remington version. And then when you consider BOTH of them, or the ACR in general are unproven, heavy rifles, why would we buy one? A cop doesn't make much, and for half the price of an ACR, the same cop can get a great AR and great optic. The ACR looks like it comes with a set of cheap Magpul BUIS.

I thought the original Masada design didn't have a quad rail forend, but a more standard one you could attach rails as needed to. What happened there, and how did a plastic and alloy rifle somehow manage to end up approaching the weight of my M14?

Wow. The Remington is priced way too high for cops, and the military for general use and issue, and the Bushmaster is heavy and offers stupid things like 1/9 barrels. Plus you pay over 3k for a folding stock version, rails and a nifty flash hider?

What an insult. Shame on Magpul for selling out on their original design to "Freedom Group" or WTF ever they are this year. Somebody up there needs to lay off the crack pipe, and realize they are charging above premium for an unproven, bastardized piston rifle in a market loaded with them, and that the current champ, the AR15 is not going to be even remotely threatened by their product as is. Hell, right now I am not even sure it gives the FN-SCAR or HK-416 much to worry about.

Maybe if that "thing" they call the ACR was anything like Masada Magpul hyped, I would buy one. A 12-1500 dollar, truly adaptable combat rifle would be something to be reckoned with.
I suspect that was what Cerberus was aiming for. My theory is that Cerberus placed the price so high so that they would not compete with their Bushmaster AR offerings. "Shrubhamster" is still an AR company, and I think they deliberately did this because they did not want the ACR diminishing their primary market.

Its a stupid, bad business decision, but I suspect the above (in addition to tooling costs and R&D) had something to do with it.

CW Mock
01-22-2010, 17:43
I was talking with a guy the other day, and he mentioned something along the lines of:

Cerberus/Freedom Group sees the plans and prototype of the Masada, and promptly buys it in order to keep the thing from ever effectively being marketed, therefor protecting the Bushmaster AR line from competition. He felt that the company was probably afraid of a plastic rifle that was cheaper and and more reliable than an AR. No proof the ACR is, but yeah, he tends to play these types of scenarios out for fun. Your post reminded me of that.

Whatever the reason, they are collectively insane.

Javelin
01-22-2010, 21:06
$3061 for the "enhanced" version???

:headscratch:

Hitler just found out about it too. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB0Pu-rvFjs)

:rofl:

AK_Stick
01-22-2010, 21:21
I suspect that was what Cerberus was aiming for. My theory is that Cerberus placed the price so high so that they would not compete with their Bushmaster AR offerings. "Shrubhamster" is still an AR company, and I think they deliberately did this because they did not want the ACR diminishing their primary market.

Its a stupid, bad business decision, but I suspect the above (in addition to tooling costs and R&D) had something to do with it.


I doubt that very much.

Cerberus, exists only to make money. Done right, the ACR may have been the new rifle to replace the AR. Being that only bushhampster can make it. It would have sold like hot cakes. Even at 2K for the enhanced, it would sell like hot cakes. Hell I would have money down at my dealer for two before they hit the streets.


They took a good design, and gave it to Bush hampster. That was the problem, this wasn't intentional pricing out of the market to sell AR's this was sheer stupidity.

crazypilot
01-22-2010, 21:48
Saw the pricing and it was around $2100 for the Basic and $2600 for the Enhanced (Bushmaster version). They are telling everyone else that doesn't hold an FFL that it's going to be $2600 for the Basic and $3000 for the Enhanced. I also spoke to Remington and they are going to concentrate on .mil/LEO contracts only. The have not set a price because they are sure that they will have to change certain things (like the 1/9 barrel)to meet the .mil/LEO needs. Therefore, Remington did not say anything about their price.

CW Mock
01-22-2010, 22:22
If the Remington price is even close, or hell, even half-ish, its still going to be way too pricy for most LEO, and I suspect military as well. I am sure the go-fast guys might get a few, but replace the M16/M4? Not likely the way they are going. Besides, as many others have said before - why buy a plastic rifle that weighs almost as much as an M14? For as adaptive as it is, I only see an adjustable stock on the enhanced version, no MIAD grips or anything else. Looks like they half assed it, and want to charge prices like its a custom English double rifle.

raven11
01-22-2010, 22:34
Saw the pricing and it was around $2100 for the Basic and $2600 for the Enhanced (Bushmaster version). They are telling everyone else that doesn't hold an FFL that it's going to be $2600 for the Basic and $3000 for the Enhanced. I also spoke to Remington and they are going to concentrate on .mil/LEO contracts only. The have not set a price because they are sure that they will have to change certain things (like the 1/9 barrel)to meet the .mil/LEO needs. Therefore, Remington did not say anything about their price.
i'd imagine that's the Dealer Cost, most gunshops that sell at cost without a huge inventory to discount don't make it long in the Gun world

COLOSHOOTR
01-23-2010, 05:15
I suspect that was what Cerberus was aiming for. My theory is that Cerberus placed the price so high so that they would not compete with their Bushmaster AR offerings. "Shrubhamster" is still an AR company, and I think they deliberately did this because they did not want the ACR diminishing their primary market.

Its a stupid, bad business decision, but I suspect the above (in addition to tooling costs and R&D) had something to do with it.

I think they just hit the crack pipe a few too many times.... The Bushmaster AR market and the ACR market are totally different. Most of the people I know other then myself (went RRA first) bought a Bushmaster AR-15 / M4 as their first AR style rifle. Now that the Bama scare is over you can find Shrubmaster AR's for under $1k. Their AR platform would continue to sell even if the basic ACR was $1500-1700 and the Enhanced around $2000 because...

A) Because it the style of weapon the Military uses so all those new to shooting and EBR's will still buy the AR platform. This will not change till the Military switches to the ACR and the chances of that are slim.

B) Other then us gun nuts that post on forums like this not too many people other then chairsoft kids know anything about the ACR so the AR-15 / M4 will continue to be more popluar.

C) As I said above you can get a AR for under $1K and buy a s&%$ load of toys to put on it.

They just see $$$$ since everyone and their mothers on the internet gun forums were waiting for this to come out. Because FN sold SCARS at a high price Cerubus thought they could do the same and that all the fanboys would buy it.

Actually now that I think about it I think this is the Dems plan to get rid of guns.... They got Cerebus to buy into gun companies. Wasn't it Cerebus that drove Chrysler into the ground. Now they will do the same with firearms companies... Only this time they won't be bailed out!

PS: Sorry if this does not make sense I'm tired and going to bed Good night! I'll read and fix it tom...

Quiet
01-23-2010, 09:04
IMO.
$2500-3000 for an updated AR-180 made out of polymer is way too much.

PlasticGuy
01-23-2010, 10:25
Saw the pricing and it was around $2100 for the Basic and $2600 for the Enhanced (Bushmaster version). They are telling everyone else that doesn't hold an FFL that it's going to be $2600 for the Basic and $3000 for the Enhanced...
That's within $50 of being correct with all of those numbers (from what Bushmaster told me at SHOT on Wednesday). If dealer cost for the good one is $2600+, it should sell for a bit less than $3000. Or, it should sit on shelves forever with a $3000 price tag anyway.