Hornady XTP Underrated? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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mclaren
01-19-2010, 10:49
I see alot of talk about Ranger T's and HST's and Gold Dots. I think these are all great i have carried Gold Dots in a few different calibers.

Why no love for the XTP? I have tested these in these caliber/weights.

.357 Sig: 147 and 124 grain
.45 ACP: 230 grain +P, Custom and TAP, both XTP.
10 mm: 155 and 200 grain
.44 Magnum: 180 and 240 grain
Muzzle loader .50 cal: .429" 240 grain XTP

I have tested these through deer, denim and water jugs. I realize its not Gelatin but its the best I can do.
100% of these rounds expanded with boring consistancy. The jacket has never separated. They always penetrate like crazy. It has been very difficult to capture the .357 sig bullets. I always underestimate the number of jugs it takes to stop one.

When the show is over, there are no talons, not really any petals, no gold dot just good old fashioned reliable expansion. I am not trying to take away from any other bullet design. There are alot of great ones out there.

A lesson I learned in Fishing is that alot of times fisherman buy lures that they think look good, that appeal to them, rather than judging them by performance in a given application.

I think maybe people are distracted by the prettiness of bullet expanded through gel in perfect conditions. I think the XTP doesnt get as much attention because they dont fold open with 6 mini chainsaws or dont release diamond tipped throwing stars in the target. Too boring.

Just a thought. These bullets never cease to amaze me.
Anyone have better/worse experience with these?

SDGlock23
01-19-2010, 10:58
I really really like the XTP. It's not fancy, but it works very well!

Zombie Steve
01-19-2010, 11:16
If you look at my reloading supplies, you'll find about 5 times the amount of XTP's compared to any other hunting / defense bullet. Affordable, consistent, accurate, and like you said, they perform well. It's not bonded, but it doesn't fall apart either.

Also, I don't mind sending a little money back to my home state. :supergrin:

cmspeedy
01-19-2010, 12:16
XTP's make great hunting rounds IMO. I find them to be the most accurate hollow points I shoot.

There is nothing wrong with them at all - but your right they are boring and don't have the accompanying man shredding claws(talons), explosive expansion (HST), beautiful star shaped recovered slugs (HST & DPX), and most of all MARKETING HYPE. They work, work well, and are proven in the real world. If a deep penetrating hollow point is desired - I would look no further.

Don't overlook the marketing part - I'm guilty of it too. I am always looking for the next best thing in bullet technology. When I first started shooting I was obsessed with it. Now, as long as it's a proven HP from a major manufacturer I worry less about terminal performance as they all work pretty well nowadays. Now, after verifying function in my gun and reading up on real world shootings stats I could care less if I have an XTP, Gold Dot, Talon, HST, Golden Sabre.......

fredj338
01-19-2010, 12:57
The 200grXTP is my fav. short bbl 45acp load. It will penetrate as deep as most 230gr & w/ slightly less recoil from a smaller/lighter pistol. The 124gr/9mm as loaded by BH is a pretty good performer @ +P vel. I like it in my G26.

voyager4520
01-19-2010, 12:57
It's in the top three of my choices for self-defense ammo. I just wish they made a 165gr TAP FPD or Custom load. The other two would be HST and Ranger T, though I haven't gotten my hands on any HST yet. I'd like to do my own ballistic testing with each of them. I wouldn't put them in any particular order because I haven't done my own testing with them yet.

I'm also quite interested in the new .40 165gr. Critical Defense load they have, but I haven't seen it in my area and have only seen a few home-made tests done with the cartridge in other calibers.

thegriz18
01-19-2010, 13:22
I tested the .40 S&W 180 grain TAP FPD load. I wasn't very impressed. The bullets expanded very well against bare wet pack, but did not expand much at all against 4 layer denim. I think I would like to give the 155 grain XTP a try and see what that round can do.

481
01-19-2010, 15:46
I think the XTP design is one of the best kept SD ammunition secrets. It offers excellent accuracy, deep penetration and expansion to ~1.5x caliber.

I carry the 147 gr. XTP in my Glock 17 and 19 and the 230 gr. XTP +P in my HK USP45. Both selections fit the parameters of what I want in an SD round:

A JHP
(1) in the heaviest practical bullet weight in the caliber
(2) moving between 800 fps and 1,000 fps
(3) that provides ~14 inches of terminal penetration.

mongo356
01-19-2010, 16:07
I saw a rumor one time that they use a harder lead alloy and that is what contributes to them holding together and penetrating better?? I cannot confirm that but it would make sense.

They do work really well for me, I have tried them in several calibers .357Mag, 40, 10mm, .380acp Critical Defense and they seem to do a good job in my hillbilly tests.

I am looking forward to the 165 in 40S&W to see how they do.

481
01-19-2010, 16:15
I saw a rumor one time that they use a harder lead alloy and that is what contributes to them holding together and penetrating better?? I cannot confirm that but it would make sense.


Could be.

S'pose you could give Hornady a call and ask although I wonder if they'd be willing to discuss it.

Gunnut 45/454
01-19-2010, 16:25
The 200 gr 45 ACP is my carry round, 110 gr in 38sp, 90 gr in my .380ACP! They work and work well!:supergrin:

PghJim
01-19-2010, 16:39
I think XTP HP's are good for faster calibers, but I had a difficult time getting the 230gr 45 ACP to expand. I works great out of my 460 Rowland at 1,300 fps. I think they are great hunting rounds and I use them as such in 357, 44 mag, and 500 S&W Mag. I do not think they make a good defensive bullet, with others like the HST and GD out there. Black Hills loads XTP's and I have not be able to get them to expand much in bare milk jugs of water, which should be ideal for expansion.

unit1069
01-19-2010, 18:04
I think the XTP design is one of the best kept SD ammunition secrets. It offers excellent accuracy, deep penetration and expansion to ~1.5x caliber.


I don't do my own testing so I rely on the testimony of those who do.

I do know that the 115-grain Fiocchi Extrema XTP round is by far the most accurate ammo I've shot in my PF-9, and that's why I carry this round in that pistol. One of these days I'll get around to comparing the 124-grain Extrema round in my larger 9mm pistol.

glocksterr
01-19-2010, 18:14
400gr. of XTP is nasty!

:)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJShbi-o7I4

BMcDonald7
01-19-2010, 18:52
I think its an ok bullet, it shoots good and will expand most of the time with good penetration. However I do think it is inconsistent in expanding against 4-layers of denim from what I have seen. I have some 230gr +P XTP I would use for hunting but not for SD as I think +P doesn't offer the 45 much except more recoil. For SD in 45 i stick to HST and Ranger-T. In 9mm i stick to HST and DPX.

krunchnik
01-19-2010, 18:57
Fiochhi Extrema-230gr XTP,thats all I carry in mine,accurate and very reliable I have found.And at $29.95 for a box of 50-price cant be beat.I wonder how much advertising contributes to a box of their competitors at $29.95 for a box of 20.

glocksterr
01-19-2010, 18:59
I think its an ok bullet, it shoots good and will expand most of the time with good penetration. However I do think it is inconsistent in expanding against 4-layers of denim from what I have seen. I have some 230gr +P XTP I would use for hunting but not for SD as I think +P doesn't offer the 45 much except more recoil. For SD in 45 i stick to HST and Ranger-T. In 9mm i stick to HST and DPX.


i cant say much about the denim testing but itelll hurt ya'.


i think you have selected better options.

SIGShooter
01-19-2010, 19:27
It was one of the first bullets to meet the FBI's infamous protocols for duty ammunition.

It is underrated. No eye catching hot babes on the boxes, no pretty flowers of spinning nytrilium death, no uber bonding process electrochemically applied, no "TACTICAL" names...

One of the better kept secrets out there for SD ammo for sure! Expansion is nice, however, if that's all you get then you've missed your target...

Vitals hit means a bad person is stopped.

fredj338
01-19-2010, 21:39
I don't do my own testing so I rely on the testimony of those who do.

I do know that the 115-grain Fiocchi Extrema XTP round is by far the most accurate ammo I've shot in my PF-9, and that's why I carry this round in that pistol. One of these days I'll get around to comparing the 124-grain Extrema round in my larger 9mm pistol.
Give the BlackHills 124gr+P a try. It makes 1220fps in my G26 & expands nicely to 65cal in denim covered wetpack.

RMTactical
01-19-2010, 22:58
XTP's are good but they are kind of an older technology. Underrated? Probably.

I am sure that they would work. I have some I am gonna test with in .45.

ajstrider
01-20-2010, 03:39
I use a lot of XTP's for hunting and self defense too. I have never bothered shooting anything into gelatin or other media. But I have dropped several nice whitetails. In my experience the XTP seems to be more designed for penetration than expansion. If you want your XTP to expand better, you need to pick a lighter to medium weight bullet for your caliber so you get some more velocity. This is fine for me though, I much prefer penetration in my hunting rounds. One of my favorite things about the good old XTP bullets is their price. They are not terribly expensive which means you can practice with them more than if you were buying some of those $30 for 20 rounds.

RWBlue
01-20-2010, 10:53
My experiance with XTP bullets is mostly as a reloader, but i have also purchased at least one box of loaded ammo. I have shot XTPs in 9mm, 45acp/super and 44mag into multiple forms of gel and other fun targets.

There is not just one XTP bullet.
They have changed the bullet over the years and not changed the name.
(There are no free rides in physics)
The older bullets had greater (than new bullets, than other premium bullets) penetration.
XTP bullets are not bonded and can come apart.
XTPs can be pushed to slow and not expand (greater pen) or too fast (quick expansion behaive like round ball).
The factory load is in the correct window for expansion.

All in all they are a premium bullet. I will continue to use them in the 44mag, but choose a different factory load for 9mm & 45acp. The jury is still out on the 45super. I would like to find a nice 260gr bullet that expands at 1000fps.

fredj338
01-20-2010, 11:37
If you want your XTP to expand better, you need to pick a lighter to medium weight bullet for your caliber so you get some more velocity. This is fine for me though, I much prefer penetration in my hunting rounds.
At least in 45acp, going faster/lighter doesn't seem to matter for expansion. I've testd the 185gr @ 1000fps, 200gr @ 900fps & 230gr @ 850fps & all expand about the same; 65cal. I do find that the 185gr & 300gr will penetrate about as far as many other 230grJHP becuase of the smaller frontal diameter. I like the 200grXTP quite a bit for a SD round.

SDGlock23
01-20-2010, 12:08
155 gr XTP's running 1400+ fps from a G22 expands well and surprising it holds together very well.

thegriz18
01-20-2010, 12:11
155 gr XTP's running 1400+ fps from a G22 expands well and surprising it holds together very well.

You have some pics? Are those from reloads of factory loads? The factory XTP 155 load is spec'd at 1180fps IIRC.

cmspeedy
01-20-2010, 12:14
Just started reloading about 6 months ago. Anybody wish to share their favorite 9mm XTP loads? I am looking for a handload that I can trust in the field. 147g XTP's would be my preference. Recoil is not much consideration as this will not be my SD or HD load.

CanyonMan
01-20-2010, 12:42
It was one of the first bullets to meet the FBI's infamous protocols for duty ammunition.

It is underrated. No eye catching hot babes on the boxes, no pretty flowers of spinning nytrilium death, no uber bonding process electrochemically applied, no "TACTICAL" names...
One of the better kept secrets out there for SD ammo for sure! Expansion is nice, however, if that's all you get then you've missed your target...

Vitals hit means a bad person is stopped.


Sig, you always freakin crack me up Hoss...
Right on Man.

Please don't leave GT. Your one of the few guys that really brighten my day with a good laugh, "while telling the truth.." ;)



Good shooting.




CanyonMan

481
01-20-2010, 13:19
Just started reloading about 6 months ago. Anybody wish to share their favorite 9mm XTP loads? I am looking for a handload that I can trust in the field. 147g XTP's would be my preference. Recoil is not much consideration as this will not be my SD or HD load.

My favorite 147 gr. XTP handload is 4.0 grains of Bullseye which averages 975 fps from my Glock 17. This is slightly under maximum so use caution working up to it please. :)

fredj338
01-20-2010, 13:24
I'm not a fan ofthe 147grXTP. The bullet just doesn't expand much in my backyrad wetpack testing. The 124gr though does really well from 100fps - 1300fps. Start w/ 5.5gr of Unique or WSF & work up carefully to 6gr for +P loads.

cmspeedy
01-20-2010, 13:32
I never knew how much I would enjoy reloading until I made the dive. I am a Microbiology major, so the science aspect of it is absolutely fascinating to me.

I believe I have found a lifelong hobby!! It's right up my alley and has brought more enjoyment to my shooting.

Thanks for sharing - I just happen to have a lb of bullseye sitting right next to me. Now I just need to find some XTP's!!! I will pick up some 124g's as well (If I can find them).

Fred - you said you don't like the 147g XTP's - which would you prefer for carry in a heavier bullet available as a component?

SDGlock23
01-20-2010, 15:33
You have some pics? Are those from reloads of factory loads? The factory XTP 155 load is spec'd at 1180fps IIRC.

I might can get a pic or two up in a bit, it's a handload using VV 3N38.

RWBlue
01-20-2010, 18:16
If you want your XTP to expand better, you need to pick a lighter to medium weight bullet for your caliber so you get some more velocity.

It doesn't work that way.
The bullets are designed to penetrate and expand to the same FBI spec.

There is another option, reloading faster or slower.

SIGShooter
01-20-2010, 19:25
Sig, you always freakin crack me up Hoss...
Right on Man.

Please don't leave GT. Your one of the few guys that really brighten my day with a good laugh, "while telling the truth.." ;)



Good shooting.




CanyonMan


If I can make at least one person smile a day, I'm happy with that.

:wavey:

CanyonMan
01-20-2010, 20:28
If I can make at least one person smile a day, I'm happy with that.

:wavey:


Well You did, and I needed it today really bad..... ;)




Good shooting Amigo



CM

DRT
01-20-2010, 20:31
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Various%20JHPs%20(Heavy%20denim%20from%20a%20Glock%2027).html

bullet#3 in the attached link is an xtp fired through clothing into gel. Not very impressive.

Under-rated? No.

CanyonMan
01-20-2010, 20:45
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Various%20JHPs%20(Heavy%20denim%20from%20a%20Glock%2027).html

bullet#3 in the attached link is an xtp fired through clothing into gel. Not very impressive.

Under-rated? No.



DRT, I have shot plumb through deer at 100 yds with a XTP out of a 10mm.
I have killed larger game than deer with a 300gr XTP out of 45LC at 100yds from a ruger hand gun and it was elk down. I do prefer the hardcast bullet, and use those in my reloads 98% of the time. But the XTP is a very tuff bullet with extremely good penetration from hunting to SD.


I would choose a XTP in a factory SD load over any other, Because of the penetration capibilities. It just flat penetrates... without that (penetration) the choosen bullet is worthless, as you know. ;)



Good shooting



CanyonMan

DRT
01-20-2010, 20:59
I would expect that a pistol bullet that's good for hunting elk may not be the best solution for self defense. My comment was regarding self defense.

Terminal ballistics testing has shown that heavy HST and Ranger T series penetrate enough while expanding larger and more reliably than XTP. If penetration was the only criteria, all of the LE agencies would be shooting fmj vs jhp. I guess it boils down to personal preference.

RWBlue
01-20-2010, 21:54
DRT, I have shot plumb through deer at 100 yds with a XTP out of a 10mm.
I have killed larger game than deer with a 300gr XTP out of 45LC at 100yds from a ruger hand gun and it was elk down. I do prefer the hardcast bullet, and use those in my reloads 98% of the time. But the XTP is a very tuff bullet with extremely good penetration from hunting to SD.


I would choose a XTP in a factory SD load over any other, Because of the penetration capibilities. It just flat penetrates... without that (penetration) the choosen bullet is worthless, as you know. ;)


You know that the 9mm 115, 147 gr, and 45acp 185, 230gr bullets are designed for SD and the heavier 45LC bullets, and 44mag bullets are a totally different animal? They call them XTPs, but one is a SD bullet and one is a hunting bullet.

Not that there is anything wrong with using a hunting bullet for SD, but .....

CanyonMan
01-20-2010, 22:19
I would expect that a pistol bullet that's good for hunting elk may not be the best solution for self defense. My comment was regarding self defense.

Terminal ballistics testing has shown that heavy HST and Ranger T series penetrate enough while expanding larger and more reliably than XTP. If penetration was the only criteria, all of the LE agencies would be shooting fmj vs jhp. I guess it boils down to personal preference.



Well no war here amigo, but the "testing" you refer to is in ballistic geletin which means absolutely nothing what so ever..... Going to strickly SD. The XTP will out penetrate the GD, GS, and and the HST. The HST I would not carry if they were given to me free. They are known to have rapid expansion, and this suffers in the penetration dept greatly. I know you are a fan of the old boy on you tube from tennessee. I am not after you or him. I like ya, and your post. not wars here. BUT, that being said, My lands. cannot people understand that a jug full of water or water and news paper with the magic 4 laylers of denim over the front see this has NOTHING at all to do with real world shootings !?


As I have said before. If he wants to run these test with the bullets you and others have been so very kind to send him, then he needs to place between the bottles/jugs, wet soaked bone, and ham/beef with bone, and cover the front jug with a t shirt, and flanel shirt, and a jacket. Now look at your HST or any other bullet my friend, and you will see that first of all the bullet cloggged like He!!. Next, because of the clog, it really lost even more penetration than it already has in his test as they are. JHP's just do not do what water jugs and jello and wet packs show you they will do. They just do not. period.

Not at all being smart with ya, I like ya. I am being realistic here. I have had to use a firearm a great deal, Do not want to talk about it. I have run test as well in media that is more human like than a water jug with paper in it and 4 layers of denim which is rediculous to say the least. No one wears four layers of denim...

These JHP's just to do not expand or penetrate in humans like they do in a water jug filled with news paper. It is fun to shoot, but a major waste of time, ammo and money to use this test as a measuring rod to reality......

Again, a challenge, and suggestion, in a kind way to you amigo. Send another box ox HST or whatever to this you tube guy, and ask him ,"hey, since i provided this expensive ammo, I am also sending you 25.00 extra to go to a local slaughter house and get a hand full of intestines and wet (green) bones, and please place them between the jugs, and place a couple of shirts and a sweater or leather jacket over the front jug. Shoot, and then film it and reply......'

You will see that your favorite ammo does nothing more than look like ball, and does NOT penetrate worth spit. WHY? It is clogged !

Am I after you? NO... I am just telling you the truth man. I have done it, and other things as well... It is not what it appears in the water jugs and wet pack....


Heck I do not have a good close here. Please do not be offended or feel attacked. I am merely suggesting to you to try this and look at the results in a more real world situation... ;)


**** Edit note**** I re-read my post here to you and wanted to say that in my big hurry to write and get going, the words on paper here seem to be far more direct and covey a 'stout come at ya voice at times", that was in NO WAY my intent to you... Please keep that in mind. I respect your on going quest in having these test run, and trying to learn, and to help others as well. (things most folks do not take the time to even try and do). I appreciate that in you. I just got different ideas (as spoken above), about these test and the media etc... That's all. ;)



Have fun
Good shooting



CanyonMan

thegriz18
01-20-2010, 23:32
Well no war here amigo, but the "testing" you refer to is in ballistic geletin which means absolutely nothing what so ever..... Going to strickly SD. The XTP will out penetrate the GD, GS, and and the HST. The HST I would not carry if they were given to me free. They are known to have rapid expansion, and this suffers in the penetration dept greatly. I know you are a fan of the old boy on you tube from tennessee. I am not after you or him. I like ya, and your post. not wars here. BUT, that being said, My lands. cannot people understand that a jug full of water or water and news paper with the magic 4 laylers of denim over the front see this has NOTHING at all to do with real world shootings !?


As I have said before. If he wants to run these test with the bullets you and others have been so very kind to send him, then he needs to place between the bottles/jugs, wet soaked bone, and ham/beef with bone, and cover the front jug with a t shirt, and flanel shirt, and a jacket. Now look at your HST or any other bullet my friend, and you will see that first of all the bullet cloggged like He!!. Next, because of the clog, it really lost even more penetration than it already has in his test as they are. JHP's just do not do what water jugs and jello and wet packs show you they will do. They just do not. period.

Not at all being smart with ya, I like ya. I am being realistic here. I have had to use a firearm a great deal, Do not want to talk about it. I have run test as well in media that is more human like than a water jug with paper in it and 4 layers of denim which is rediculous to say the least. No one wears four layers of denim...

These JHP's just to do not expand or penetrate in humans like they do in a water jug filled with news paper. It is fun to shoot, but a major waste of time, ammo and money to use this test as a measuring rod to reality......

Again, a challenge, and suggestion, in a kind way to you amigo. Send another box ox HST or whatever to this you tube guy, and ask him ,"hey, since i provided this expensive ammo, I am also sending you 25.00 extra to go to a local slaughter house and get a hand full of intestines and wet (green) bones, and please place them between the jugs, and place a couple of shirts and a sweater or leather jacket over the front jug. Shoot, and then film it and reply......'

You will see that your favorite ammo does nothing more than look like ball, and does NOT penetrate worth spit. WHY? IT IS CLOGGED! (not yelling).

Am I after you? NO... I am just telling you the truth man. I have done it, and other things as well... It is not what it appears in the water jugs and wet pack....


Heck I do not have a good close here. Please do not be offended or feel attacked. I am merely suggesting to you to try this and look at the results in a more real world situation... ;)


Good shooting



CanyonMan
Do you have pics of projectiles recovered form animals? I'm curious.

No one wears four layers of denim...
Well, in Canada I think it's called a tuxedo.

glocksterr
01-21-2010, 04:33
Well no war here amigo, ...


Heck I do not have a good close here. Please do not be offended or feel attacked. I am merely suggesting to you to try this and look at the results in a more real world situation... ;)


Good shooting



CanyonMan



CM, im in no way dissin' you and respect your input as it comes from RL situations.

i agree with what you said for the most part except the part about the HST not expanding and under penetrating.

all the reports i have run across from LEO shootings have been stellar with 100% or close to it reliability. peeps keep making claims of how these bullets are all hype but the RL data dont show it.

it mostly the FMJ guys knocking them too.

CanyonMan
01-21-2010, 07:07
Do you have pics of projectiles recovered form animals? I'm curious.


Well, in Canada I think it's called a tuxedo.

No bud i really wish to heck i did have photo's. The several times these were done, frankly we just did not see need need I guess for pics. It was just do it and see what happens you know. I know that leaves me (with some), in the "well that's your claim," department. But, like I said, at the time i guess no one was thinking about pics or a forum or proving anything to the WWW. ;)

Rest assured. Next time this is done, there will be pics stacked high and deep. In fact I was talking to my brother the other night about doing some video sessions of stuff. It is having the time any more to it seems. The days seem to just get shorter...

Sorry. All ya got is my word...

Good shooting



CanyonMan

CanyonMan
01-21-2010, 07:29
CM, im in no way dissin' you and respect your input as it comes from RL situations.

i agree with what you said for the most part except the part about the HST not expanding and under penetrating.

all the reports i have run across from LEO shootings have been stellar with 100% or close to it reliability. peeps keep making claims of how these bullets are all hype but the RL data dont show it.

it mostly the FMJ guys knocking them too.


Well, there is certainly no problem with folks that want disagree. ;)
I do not have or have not seen any reports from LEO on this bullet. I believe ya Though. Bud i just am not and never have been in favor of a rapid expanding bullet, which is the character of the HST. I have seen the infamous wet pack test, and other test like it by the score it seems. In each one, there was a picture perfect flower petal slug opened up, but penetration was really lacking. That being said. Stick some bones and sluather house guts in there and top it off with a shirt and maybe a jacket or coat, and actually would not want to carry this load because of the lack of penetration.

Now this is just me. I stand to be corrected as I am NOT the world authority on this. But, from what I have seen in the way of test, even though IMO they are not the kind of test that yield a real world as possible senerio and do not impress me, i stil say add this other media to the jugs and make it at least a tad more realistic, and most all these designer bullets are going to look very dismal at best in their performance. No the HST is not one we fired into the hind quarters or other test we did, but nothing at all was impressive really. GD and XTP, the latter doing the best in the penetration area, but just nothing that impressed us much....

My speech sounds like a 3 legged horse at best without the pics to back it up. I know that. But when these things were done we never thought about pics. Just some old boys on the ranch out here having some fun, and yet, wanting to truly see a few things as well. Next time we will take pics, and we were talking the other night about doing a video with my brothers equipment. So, maybe we can do that some time this year. Lots of irons in the fire my friend.

Anyway. I hear ya, and believe your findings, and your word has always been good as well. It is just one of those difference of opinion things here trying to get an old dog (me) to learn new tricks..... I just am as stubborn as heck in that area ... LOL


Good shooting to ya
always enjoy hearing from ya Amigo.



CanyonMan

granitemonkey
01-21-2010, 15:07
I really wanna try the Black Hills 124gr +p load, but I cant find none to save my butt. Cabelas is back ordered, but the Black Hills stuff is loaded to my liking. Anyone know why Hornady wont make a 124gr +p load?

DEADEYEGUY
01-22-2010, 22:37
I haven't tried the nw "Critical Defense" ammunition so I can't comment on it. I use the XTP in my Kel Tec .380. It doesn't get the 12" of penetration that the F.B.I. wants. But it does get 9-10 inches of penetration and expands to about .45 caliber. And it is super accurate. Unless one of the newer loads is better if your going to use JHP's in a .380 I'd go with the XTP hands down.

Ak.Hiker
01-22-2010, 23:29
Besides deep penetration the XTP bullet has a feed profile very close to ball. I carry the 155 grain XTP in my Glock 22 and the 180 grain XTP in my Glock 29. Both are good loads. For animal protection when I carry my Ruger Super Blackhawk the first two loads are the 300 grain XTP followed by 4 non expanding CorBon 305 grain Penetrators. I like the XTP. I also like the fact that they are produced by a family run company.

thegriz18
01-22-2010, 23:40
Besides deep penetration the XTP bullet has a feed profile very close to ball. I carry the 155 grain XTP in my Glock 22 and the 180 grain XTP in my Glock 29. Both are good loads. For animal protection when I carry my Ruger Super Blackhawk the first two loads are the 300 grain XTP followed by 4 non expanding CorBon 305 grain Penetrators. I like the XTP. I also like the fact that they are produced by a family run company.

Do you find the performance of the 180 grain XTP in 40 S&W inadequate? I did my own testing and it was lacking at the factory velocity of 950fps.

Have you done any testing with the 155 grain XTP load? I like their feed profile and outstanding accuracy as well.

Ak.Hiker
01-23-2010, 00:16
Do you find the performance of the 180 grain XTP in 40 S&W inadequate? I did my own testing and it was lacking at the factory velocity of 950fps.

Have you done any testing with the 155 grain XTP load? I like their feed profile and outstanding accuracy as well.

In most cases I go for the heavier bullet in each caliber. With the XTP I know that with the bullet design I can carry the lighter bullet and still get good penetration. The reason I picked the 155 grain XTP load is for the simple fact that its ballistics are similar to a standard factory loaded 158 grain 357 Magnum round out of a 3 or 4 inch barrel revolver. It is also pretty close to what a lot of folks report they get out of the 175 grain Silvertip in 10mm. Penetration with the 155 grain XTP is similar to both the 158 grain JHP in 357 Magnum as well as the 175 grain Silvertip when shooting into logs and stumps. In the area I live in their is a possibility that your SD carry load would be needed to put down an animal. I feel that the XTP is a good balance between expansion and penetration. The bottom line for me is I have a lot of trust in Hornady products and would not have a problem using their loads for SD or hunting. Just look at the reputation their Spire Point rifle bullets have in the game fields and these are old school non bonded bullets. Pretty much the same thing with the XTP. Old school but good old school.

ssilvestro
01-23-2010, 00:22
Well, there is certainly no problem with folks that want disagree. ;)
I do not have or have not seen any reports from LEO on this bullet. I believe ya Though. Bud i just am not and never have been in favor of a rapid expanding bullet, which is the character of the HST. I have seen the infamous wet pack test, and other test like it by the score it seems. In each one, there was a picture perfect flower petal slug opened up, but penetration was really lacking. That being said. Stick some bones and sluather house guts in there and top it off with a shirt and maybe a jacket or coat, and actually would not want to carry this load because of the lack of penetration.

Now this is just me. I stand to be corrected as I am NOT the world authority on this. But, from what I have seen in the way of test, even though IMO they are not the kind of test that yield a real world as possible senerio and do not impress me, i stil say add this other media to the jugs and make it at least a tad more realistic, and most all these designer bullets are going to look very dismal at best in their performance. No the HST is not one we fired into the hind quarters or other test we did, but nothing at all was impressive really. GD and XTP, the latter doing the best in the penetration area, but just nothing that impressed us much....

My speech sounds like a 3 legged horse at best without the pics to back it up. I know that. But when these things were done we never thought about pics. Just some old boys on the ranch out here having some fun, and yet, wanting to truly see a few things as well. Next time we will take pics, and we were talking the other night about doing a video with my brothers equipment. So, maybe we can do that some time this year. Lots of irons in the fire my friend.

Anyway. I hear ya, and believe your findings, and your word has always been good as well. It is just one of those difference of opinion things here trying to get an old dog (me) to learn new tricks..... I just am as stubborn as heck in that area ... LOL


Good shooting to ya
always enjoy hearing from ya Amigo.



CanyonMan

How can you say that ballistic gelatin has absolutely no meaning, while at the same time stating your belief that HST is an inappropriately fast expander based on some WETPACK test you've observed?

Ak.Hiker
01-23-2010, 00:35
Now you are going to get CanyonMan all stirred up. He has a ranch to run for crying out loud. Not sure about his testing but I doubt that the HST will penetrate as deep as the XTP from the back woods testing I have done. I do however like the 230 grain +P HST as a load for my 6.5 inch S&W 45 acp revolver I keep as a house gun. For the field I take those HST loads out and carry 250 grain hardcast in the auto rim case. About the only JHP I would carry in the field in my 45 would be the XTP 230 +P.

BMcDonald7
01-23-2010, 01:42
Originally Posted by CanyonMan
Well no war here amigo, but the "testing" you refer to is in ballistic geletin which means absolutely nothing what so ever..... Going to strickly SD. The XTP will out penetrate the GD, GS, and and the HST. The HST I would not carry if they were given to me free. They are known to have rapid expansion, and this suffers in the penetration dept greatly. I know you are a fan of the old boy on you tube from tennessee. I am not after you or him. I like ya, and your post. not wars here. BUT, that being said, My lands. cannot people understand that a jug full of water or water and news paper with the magic 4 laylers of denim over the front see this has NOTHING at all to do with real world shootings !?


As I have said before. If he wants to run these test with the bullets you and others have been so very kind to send him, then he needs to place between the bottles/jugs, wet soaked bone, and ham/beef with bone, and cover the front jug with a t shirt, and flanel shirt, and a jacket. Now look at your HST or any other bullet my friend, and you will see that first of all the bullet cloggged like He!!. Next, because of the clog, it really lost even more penetration than it already has in his test as they are. JHP's just do not do what water jugs and jello and wet packs show you they will do. They just do not. period.I would like to preface my comments with the statement that I am not attacking you, or trying to be argumentative. I do not expect you to change your views on any particular bullet or trying to get an "old dog" to learn new tricks. However this is a caliber forum so what good is it if we cant have friendly civil discussions about bullets!

I agree with you CanyonMan that our own personal experience should way heavily on our opions about bullets and there performances, but I also think it is just as important to take other peoples experiences into consideration. I deal in insurance, so we are used to the law of large numbers. The more data you collect, the more accurate your study will be. When you make statements that jello tests, water jug tests and others do not give you any information useful to real world shootings i think you are essentially throwing the baby out with the bath water. What the test gives you is an equal playing field to test bullets and compare performance. The FBI has invested a lot of money into the science of properly calibrated 10% ordinance gelatin. They have done this because they believe that the lives of their officers are worth the investment, not to pad some manufacturers wallet for developing the next "magic bullet". I know I wont convince you that the gelatin test is the most realistic test to compare bullets, but i think there are valuable things to learn from the test.

Regarding the penetration of Federal HST and its performance I can only tell you that if it was showing under penetration in the field from LEO agencies it would be well known by now. Post shooting investigations would quickly show if they were under penetrating as severally as you have stated. My local police department (Phoenix Arizona) has been using federal HST in there 40's and 45's for a while now and they have been very satisfied with the results. In most tests done with properly calibrated gelatin the HST has shown to reliably expand and even when expanding to over 1" still get 12" of penetration. I believe the FBI chose 12" for a good reason, not to help bullet makers sell bullets.

I am also just as interesting in how bullets perform when hitting bone inside a living thing. That is why I did a little test using wet phone books (have I already lost ya? :embarassed:) and some pork rib bones I had leftover. I placed the pork rib bones about 1/4" into the wet phone books to simulate a thin layer of fat or muscle. I shot 9mm and 45 into the phone books and looked to see how the bullets reacted when they hit the bone. Some of the bullets I tested where 9mm 147gr HST and 45 230gr HST. You while they did not look like the perfect flower you see from the pictures, the 2 9mm HST's hit bone going right through, both fully expanded and you could see where they hit the bone with the marks in the lead. I was most impressed with the 45 230gr HST. It opened up just like the ones that hit no bone and expanded to .88. The only difference between it and the HST's that didn't strike bone was some marks on the leading sharp edges of the bullet. This was from a bullet that hit the bone head on and split it in two. All bullets penetrated normal depth compared to other JHP I have shot into Wet Newspaper.

You may throw my test out saying none of that is useful information in regards to the HST's performance. However I ask you to take a look at the book "The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry" by Massad Ayoob 2007. On Page 76 you can see pictures of Federal HST 45 230gr+P that was fired into "Man sized Hogs". There are 2 bullets, one fired into the skull and "utterly destroyed the brain" and the other "entered the shoulder and tore a large wound through the chest""destroyed both lungs and the top of the heart". Both bullets expanded, both hit bone and still penetrated deep into the vitals, and both dropped the hog instantly. I really recommend you check out this book as it has many interesting pictures of various calibers hitting bone. I know that a wild Hog is not a human but I don't think you can get any more realistic of a test for a bullet.

I am having trouble with your statement that when JHP do not expand and get clogged with material that they under penetrate instead of essentially turning into FMJ and over penetrate. Every test I have seen has shown that when a bullet's hollow point clogs it penetrates farther than a hollow point that expanded. I was unable to retrieve many bullets due to clogging. I am just curious what you have seen to lead you to this opinion.

In closing I hope that you don't think I am attacking you. Just trying to have a nice civil discussion with you on a subject I find very interesting. We are all entitled to our opinions and I don't think everyone has to agree with mine. I have just taking the information I have learned by tests of my own, what I have heard from local police, and tests I have seen and drawn a different conclusion than you on the effectiveness of a particular bullet. Your situation out on a ranch is a far different situation than I deal with in a big city where I am often in a setting where I am surrounded by hundreds of people and over penetration would be more likely to be a problem than out on a ranch. A bullet that would make sense for me and my environment may not be whats best for yours. I don't think there is any one size fits all bullet out there. I do think that Federal HST is one of the best bullets on the market for what it was designed to do. Reliably expand when encountering heavy clothing, and penetrate to a minimum of 12". That being said it is only my opinion and opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one.

glocksterr
01-23-2010, 06:09
I doubt that the HST will penetrate as deep as the XTP from the back woods testing I have done.


nor will most other JHP that properly expand. the XTP seems to be top of the hill for penetration in a reliable, expanding JHP.


YMMV!

CanyonMan
01-23-2010, 13:09
How can you say that ballistic gelatin has absolutely no meaning, while at the same time stating your belief that HST is an inappropriately fast expander based on some WETPACK test you've observed?




Well buddy it is real simple to me. Perhaps I did not explain it clearly enough, and I need to make this short as well, as I have post and PM's running out my ears to answer and I just do not have the time to do it, so all answers will be short. Rather busy out here... ;)

First. I can say that the Gelatin test are not impressive to me because they are not. They are simple blocks of hog gelatin that about any bullet fired into it looks impressive. Water Jugs, Jugs filled with shreded news paper and water, phone books, none of these are real world meadia to test a bullet in that I may have to count on to save my life.

That being said. I too, have used all this meadia named to test/Play with and it is fun, but not realistic in the least.

WHY?

Very simply because the human is not made up of any of this media. Gelatin being the closet to imitate the human guts or bowles.

I realize that the GOV and other agencies use this media to get a realitive idea of the bullets performance, but again, it more closely resembles bowel or gut shots and not real world senerio's.

If you want to know why they are so big on these test, frankly you will have to write them and ask.

A bullet fired into gelatin alone, or wet pack, or phone books or water jugs, is as I said, FUN. But it is not reliable information as to the way said bullet will conduct itself in the human body.

When shooting a man, there are many times the shot fired will approach him at an "oblique angle," or through the arm or arms and then still need to get to the vitals organs in the body, 'or' he is sideways, and some other thing is blocking his torso and the bullet must still get through clothes and an arm or something, and still deep enough into the body cavity going through skin like elastic, and flesh and muscle and bones, and still to the vitals.

This takes a bullet that will really penetrate, and do it well. Heavy for caliber "bonded bullets" are really best suited for this outside of FMJ's which I have no problem with either. To many read misinformation from others, or internet ramblings and gun rag mags and hear about all the overpenetration problems. Most of this is BS. Yes, when you get into 9mm 40s&w and 10mm and use a FMJ the factor goes up that OP can occur. I left out the 45acp with 230gr ball, because this is not as high a factor as with the previous cartridges mentioned. I have no problem with FMJ in 45acp at all.

Some (i think you 'maybe') said 'well you live on a ranch and do not have to worry about these things...." Dear friend. I do not have to worry about SD on the ranch at all, unless we all go to shooting each other over a horse or a poker game ! ;)

I dropped that in for some humor, not to be smart.

I carry IN TOWN is a 45acp 1911 with 230gr ball ammo, sometimes it will have 230gr XTP's cause they too, will do what we talked about above in a real world senerio much better than a JHP will.

I carry heavy for caliber in the 40cal s&w which does not see much action, but has 180gr GD's or WW bonded 180gr. 9mil sees ball at times, but usually 147gr that will penetrate.


Yes, I do understand that most gun owners cannot run a test apart from a water jug, or phone book or wet pack. I do realize and understand what the GOV seems to call "correct protocol ." My father before he died worked for the gov for 40 odd years.... I do not always agree with Uncle Sam.

When test are contucted into media that contains (front to back) a jacket and or leather coat, flanel shirt, sweater, t-shirt, a slab of hind quarter with some slaughterhouse orgins packed in there (if you dont have them fresh on hand from your own butchered beef) bind that up and get back and shoot. Now look at your favorite bullet. How did it fair ? how much did it penetrate? what did the wound channel look like? are you happy or po'd with it... ? Now make your conclusions. The other way is to unfortunately have to shoot a man....


Bout all i can tell ya for now.

On the HST's. I have not personally ran any test on them, but know of ones that have, and in more real world media it does not have a good penetration record IMO, and does not look like the rose pedal it does in a water jug or gelatin block. Again, a gut shot to a man, and a through the side, or oblique shot, and or all this through clothes and perhaps a very thick or fat fellow, changes this whole thrilling idea of "packin a gun around..."

It is a serious thing to strap on a gun. It takes a man that can stay focused and calm when time to use it, or make the call not to use it. If he has to fire, his first shot better count and be his best. He may get additional shots, but the first one, and second actually are the real deciding rounds. We can fill a guy full of 15/17 rounds and say, great bullet ! But to be really honest with you, this is not usually the case in a shooting civilian or not, to pump 10/14/16/ rounds in a man. Has it been done ? Yep ! But said it is not the norm, and really should not be, (unless some very heavy conditions prevailed). The first couple shots better be good ones.

I do not favor a fast or rapid expanding bullet for all the obvious reasons above. It is fun (sometimes) to get on GT and carry on and on about all the bullets out there the marketing industry is throwing our way, and we try this and that, and get excited over this and that...

Actually. Just good old common sense, is not a bad way to go. A Heavier bullet is going to penetrate on the average much better than a light one. A heavy for caliber 'bonded bullet," is going to do even better, and the old faithfull FMJ is obvious to these senerio's above i have outlined.

In closing. I AM NOT down on any one who shoots in wet pack, gelatin, phone books, or water jugs, dang I do my self sometimes, but I will say this. I have never, and will never do this, and then look at the bullet and say.."Wow this is the one for me, look at this picture perfect flower, and did you see that jug blowup "? Although fun... Not at all realistic for a human SD test unless all your shots are going to be just above the belly button in the guts. I don't think any one here has that intent....


Please use what you like, you want to use, and are comfortable with. What I say Is through what I know, have seen, or done, and what works for me, and what I feel comfortable with. I am not trying to convience any one, and do not want a following, and do not have all the answers, and am still a tad teachable on some things... LOL ;)

If I have not answerd all your questions you had for me I am sorry. trying to answer folks and do my best and get going...

Good shooting
Please stay safe



CanyonMan

mitchshrader
01-23-2010, 13:58
I have some XTPs which were bought for reloading specifically because of their reliable penetration, but they're heavy for caliber. It stands to reason lighter faster bullets are going to have faster and greater expansion, so less penetration. IF they expand.

I assume they won't, train that way, and consider it conservative. I'm an ol' phart, I'm Supposed to be conservative. ymmv. ;)

CanyonMan
01-23-2010, 14:11
I would like to preface my comments with the statement that I am not attacking you, or trying to be argumentative. I do not expect you to change your views on any particular bullet or trying to get an "old dog" to learn new tricks. However this is a caliber forum so what good is it if we cant have friendly civil discussions about bullets!

I agree with you CanyonMan that our own personal experience should way heavily on our opions about bullets and there performances, but I also think it is just as important to take other peoples experiences into consideration. I deal in insurance, so we are used to the law of large numbers. The more data you collect, the more accurate your study will be. When you make statements that jello tests, water jug tests and others do not give you any information useful to real world shootings i think you are essentially throwing the baby out with the bath water. What the test gives you is an equal playing field to test bullets and compare performance. The FBI has invested a lot of money into the science of properly calibrated 10% ordinance gelatin. They have done this because they believe that the lives of their officers are worth the investment, not to pad some manufacturers wallet for developing the next "magic bullet". I know I wont convince you that the gelatin test is the most realistic test to compare bullets, but i think there are valuable things to learn from the test.

Regarding the penetration of Federal HST and its performance I can only tell you that if it was showing under penetration in the field from LEO agencies it would be well known by now. Post shooting investigations would quickly show if they were under penetrating as severally as you have stated. My local police department (Phoenix Arizona) has been using federal HST in there 40's and 45's for a while now and they have been very satisfied with the results. In most tests done with properly calibrated gelatin the HST has shown to reliably expand and even when expanding to over 1" still get 12" of penetration. I believe the FBI chose 12" for a good reason, not to help bullet makers sell bullets.

I am also just as interesting in how bullets perform when hitting bone inside a living thing. That is why I did a little test using wet phone books (have I already lost ya? :embarassed:) and some pork rib bones I had leftover. I placed the pork rib bones about 1/4" into the wet phone books to simulate a thin layer of fat or muscle. I shot 9mm and 45 into the phone books and looked to see how the bullets reacted when they hit the bone. Some of the bullets I tested where 9mm 147gr HST and 45 230gr HST. You while they did not look like the perfect flower you see from the pictures, the 2 9mm HST's hit bone going right through, both fully expanded and you could see where they hit the bone with the marks in the lead. I was most impressed with the 45 230gr HST. It opened up just like the ones that hit no bone and expanded to .88. The only difference between it and the HST's that didn't strike bone was some marks on the leading sharp edges of the bullet. This was from a bullet that hit the bone head on and split it in two. All bullets penetrated normal depth compared to other JHP I have shot into Wet Newspaper.


You may throw my test out saying none of that is useful information in regards to the HST's performance. However I ask you to take a look at the book "The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry" by Massad Ayoob 2007. On Page 76 you can see pictures of Federal HST 45 230gr+P that was fired into "Man sized Hogs". There are 2 bullets, one fired into the skull and "utterly destroyed the brain" and the other "entered the shoulder and tore a large wound through the chest""destroyed both lungs and the top of the heart". Both bullets expanded, both hit bone and still penetrated deep into the vitals, and both dropped the hog instantly. I really recommend you check out this book as it has many interesting pictures of various calibers hitting bone. I know that a wild Hog is not a human but I don't think you can get any more realistic of a test for a bullet.

I am having trouble with your statement that when JHP do not expand and get clogged with material that they under penetrate instead of essentially turning into FMJ and over penetrate. Every test I have seen has shown that when a bullet's hollow point clogs it penetrates farther than a hollow point that expanded. I was unable to retrieve many bullets due to clogging. I am just curious what you have seen to lead you to this opinion.


In closing I hope that you don't think I am attacking you. Just trying to have a nice civil discussion with you on a subject I find very interesting. We are all entitled to our opinions and I don't think everyone has to agree with mine. I have just taking the information I have learned by tests of my own, what I have heard from local police, and tests I have seen and drawn a different conclusion than you on the effectiveness of a particular bullet. Your situation out on a ranch is a far different situation than I deal with in a big city where I am often in a setting where I am surrounded by hundreds of people and over penetration would be more likely to be a problem than out on a ranch. A bullet that would make sense for me and my environment may not be whats best for yours. I don't think there is any one size fits all bullet out there. I do think that Federal HST is one of the best bullets on the market for what it was designed to do. Reliably expand when encountering heavy clothing, and penetrate to a minimum of 12". That being said it is only my opinion and opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one.





Man your more long winded than me... You win the prize, or it is surely a close race... LOL ;)

NO way do I have time for all this. I just wrote you a novel on my last post, then saw this one you wrote.. I will only touch one or two things here. This is NOT a cop out, I just simply do not have the time, and should already been out doing somethings...

OK where to start. You said.." I agree with you CanyonMan that our own personal experience should way heavily on our opions about bullets and there performances, but I also think it is just as important to take other peoples experiences into consideration.."


I could not agree with you more. I do take other peoples experiences into great consideration, but if I do not agree with said experiences, what should i do? I am have done the same thing you did, and we both got two results. No problemo. Let's do it again, and again, and again. Then let's change the WAY we are doing it, and use a entirely different Method, and see what happens. At some point if we continue to do this enough, one of us is going to humble ourself and say, "dang, man your right, i like what I am seeing here, or' uh oh, your methods and experiments finally showed not to be the way you thought, what do you think of mine, if i am seeking the truth, and will be humble, I will say, wow you were right, or your experiments/methods sure did prove to give "the better evidience to what we were both searching for..'


Yep, I do take others experience into great consideration. Sometimes right then right there. But sometimes, they got to show me more...


You said.. "When you make statements that jello tests, water jug tests and others do not give you any information useful to real world shootings i think you are essentially throwing the baby out with the bath water..."


I have already explained this in great detail in the other post to you.....
I will spare the time and key board going through it again ok? ;)


You Said..."Post shooting investigations would quickly show if they were under penetrating as severally as you have stated. My local police department (Phoenix Arizona) has been using federal HST in there 40's and 45's for a while now and they have been very satisfied with the results..."


My friend I believe you, and I truly am happy their results are giving them the needed confidece they so well desirve. I say again, their results, my results ?? I'm listening to ya. I really am. But, I still know what I too am seeing as well. Perhaps the fair thing to say with the HST, and for time sake and move on here.. Is this. I will get several boxes and try them my self, and if I get the same results as the results I have already seen else where into different media. I will stick by that. If I am wrong and see something promising I will change my tune, and still use my regular ammo though... ha.


You said.. "I am also just as interesting in how bullets perform when hitting bone inside a living thing. That is why I did a little test using wet phone books (have I already lost ya? :embarassed:) and some pork rib bones I had leftover. I placed the pork rib bones about 1/4" into the wet phone books to simulate a thin layer of fat or muscle. I shot 9mm and 45 into the phone books and looked to see how the bullets reacted when they hit the bone. Some of the bullets I tested where 9mm 147gr HST and 45 230gr HST. You while they did not look like the perfect flower you see from the pictures, the 2 9mm HST's hit bone going right through, both fully expanded and you could see where they hit the bone with the marks in the lead. I was most impressed with the 45 230gr HST. It opened up just like the ones that hit no bone and expanded to .88. The only difference between it and the HST's that didn't strike bone was some marks on the leading sharp edges of the bullet. This was from a bullet that hit the bone head on and split it in two. All bullets penetrated normal depth compared to other JHP I have shot into Wet Newspaper. ..."

You did not loose me Hoss, I am still here. Hey I am not king of the mountain here. Glad you did what you did. Interesting results, PLEASE do not be offended, you did a great job OK? But there was a good deal of human "type" parts still left out of that test, "that I know you were not " privy to." I understand this.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I have got to stand on the fact that although we are trying our butts off to do the best we can, and my stetson is off to all the old boys like you sir, that have a great desire to learn and do things right. ! That's the way it should be with us all. Hands on. But I must still take the stand that this is not the media that vindicates our bullets to be of good use, perhaps in all fainess I'll say sometimes it may not say their bad either.

I am saying, these test are just not real world. You might argue, (hope not), "well i do not go around shooting beef hind quarters filled with solid and hollow organs covered in a pile of clothes either.." You would be correct. (i hope). But, that is about the closet test I rely upon outside a live hog. (we used to have over 400 hogs here on the place some weighing over 300/400 pounds. So use your imagination on that one. BTW these were domestic hogs raised for market....


You said..."I am having trouble with your statement that when JHP do not expand and get clogged with material that they under penetrate instead of essentially turning into FMJ and over penetrate. Every test I have seen has shown that when a bullet's hollow point clogs it penetrates farther than a hollow point that expanded. I was unable to retrieve many bullets due to clogging. I am just curious what you have seen to lead you to this opinion.



My friend it is a fact. There are those exceptions out there now and then ok? When a JHP clogges up it loses vel and it loses penetration. It is better if said JHP is a heavy for caliber bonded bullet. Yes most do look a good deal like FMJ when recovered, BUT, they did not at all penetrate like a FMJ bullet. They were slowed down from the clog. Like a man with a large parachute is more greatly slowed down even if he waits a while before pulling the cord and has gained good speed on the drop. I'm not sure I like my own Illustration, but I am about brain dead here... Whew. 15 second break.....


You said..."In closing I hope that you don't think I am attacking you. Just trying to have a nice civil discussion with you on a subject I find very interesting. We are all entitled to our opinions and I don't think everyone has to agree with mine. I have just taking the information I have learned by tests of my own, what I have heard from local police, and tests I have seen and drawn a different conclusion than you on the effectiveness of a particular bullet.


No way do I even remotely feel attacked bud. (lets meet in the alley after this is over). LOL ... Kidding.

Your fine. It is refreshing not to be attacked for a change. No problems there, and i hope my response has been polite. Sometimes my mind is polite and my fingers on the key board have thoughts of their own.... ;)


I respect your opinions sir. I do. Your right. We do not have to agree. We seem to perhaps in some things, and we do not in others, but i in no wise think you do not know a thing or two, nor have no clue as to what you say... Not at all. I too have my experiences. As I tried to illustrate waaaay up there above some where. Some one is always right, and some one is always wrong. The way to tell, is to keep doing a thing and keep wringing it out, and all the time with a heart that wants the truth, and is willing to learn, and sooner or later, one of the two fellas are going to say... Man. you were right. I missed it. Usually it is never a draw in things such as this. It just takes time patients and a whole lot of staying at it....


You said..."Your situation out on a ranch is a far different situation than I deal with in a big city where I am often in a setting where I am surrounded by hundreds of people and over penetration would be more likely to be a problem than out on a ranch. A bullet that would make sense for me and my environment may not be whats best for yours. I don't think there is any one size fits all bullet out there.

I know I alredy addressed this in the other post to you a tad, but I will once more, and close with this...

My "situation' my enviroment, has nothing to do with my selection of what bullet I am carrying. I carry the FMJ in the 45acp 1911 in the city when I go there to visit my mother. Sometimes a 200gr XTP. I carry a 180gr bonded WW in the 40 smith JHP round, Sometimes the 180gr XTP. And a 147gr JHP in the 9mil, or heavy XTP, And a 200gr XTP in the 10mm all in the city...

Why?

We done been there in the last post. Senerio's call for them. I do not know what I am going to encounter out there. People think only LEO's need these things. Not so. I have a whole host of LEO's and service men and women in our big family from here in W. TEX to Tenn: to Ohio, One of them has one of the best reputaions in the state as any law man could ever hope to have. I listen to these guys very well..... I want something that penetrates all we talked about that could happen firing at the human body, and something that will go through glass, wallboard, and car doors. BG's as you know, do not just attack 'even a cilvian' in a open field or a clear parking lot. Things can go down that call for a very decisive action on my part to save my bacon, or family's. I need something I know 'the best i can at least,' that will do what it needs to do and get to where it need to go...

Now I am sorry about pickin and choosen through your post to answer ya, but I have already been a loong time needing to go. I did NOT try and avoid certain things or go around the block with ya. I am one direct Hombre and would not disrespect you in such a way.. i did what i could 'for now.' Perhaps we can do 'er again some time, and I hope I have said something that makes since or helps in some way. If not, Open the door and trow it out. LOL
I enjoyit it, and you as well sir.


God bless ya'
Please stay safe out there




CanyonMan

BMcDonald7
01-23-2010, 16:25
Originally Posted by CanyonMan
Now I am sorry about pickin and choosen through your post to answer ya, but I have already been a loong time needing to go. I did NOT try and avoid certain things or go around the block with ya. I am one direct Hombre and would not disrespect you in such a way.. i did what i could 'for now.' Perhaps we can do 'er again some time, and I hope I have said something that makes since or helps in some way. If not, Open the door and trow it out. LOL
I don't mind. People have more important things to do than answer questions on the internet :embarassed:. I rather be shooting lead than talking about how it looks after.:50cal:

Originally Posted by CanyonMan
My friend I believe you, and I truly am happy their results are giving them the needed confidece they so well desirve. I say again, their results, my results ?? I'm listening to ya. I really am. But, I still know what I too am seeing as well. Perhaps the fair thing to say with the HST, and for time sake and move on here.. Is this. I will get several boxes and try them my self, and if I get the same results as the results I have already seen else where into different media. I will stick by that. If I am wrong and see something promising I will change my tune, and still use my regular ammo though... ha.I couldn't agree more with you here, if you are not confident in the performance of a bullet, for whatever reason..don't carry it for SD. The reason why I carry HST in my 45 is because I have done tests, seen tests and most important, I shoot it well. This gives me the confidence to trust that it will do its part if I do my part, God forbid that day ever comes. I really hope you pick up a box or two of it and test it out on the local wild hogs to see its performance. If you do, please take some pics and document what you find. Like I stated in my previous post in the book "The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry" by Massad Ayoob 2007 he shows several bullets after shooting wild hogs and 2 of those bullets are HST.

Originally Posted by CanyonMan
My friend it is a fact. There are those exceptions out there now and then ok? When a JHP clogges up it loses vel and it loses penetration. It is better if said JHP is a heavy for caliber bonded bullet. Yes most do look a good deal like FMJ when recovered, BUT, they did not at all penetrate like a FMJ bullet. They were slowed down from the clog. Like a man with a large parachute is more greatly slowed down even if he waits a while before pulling the cord and has gained good speed on the drop. I'm not sure I like my own Illustration, but I am about brain dead here... Whew. 15 second break.....I agree that a JHP that has been plugged will more than likely not penetrate as far as FMJ, however it will still penetrate farther than a fully expanded JHP. If a JHP has been shown to penetrate to 12" when fully expanded at around .90, if the same JHP gets clogged it will still penetrate farther than 12" as it now has less surface area (.45). After the cavity gets clogged it is no longer causing a parachute affect as if it was it would just expand the bullet. The point of clothing clogging the cavity is that now material gets pushed around the clog and there is no longer and pressure forcing the cavity to expand. I have seen this when I have recovered bullets that have clogged with denim. The denim is still trapped in the cavity. I saw this with the federal hydra shocks I tested vs 4-layers of denim. 1 clogged, 1 didnt. The one that clogged was full of denim and penetrated farther into the wet newspaper than the hydrashock that didnt clog, fully expanded(the denim was stuck on the post too). I recently shot 127gr +P+ ranger t into 9" of wet newspaper covered with 4-layers of denim with 2 water jugs behind. Both shots completly penetrated 9" of newspaper and the 2 water jugs. The impact hole into the water jug showed a nice small hole, with no jagged cuts. The hollow point must have clogged to produce a hole that small. Now the shots into the newspaper without denim fully expanded and traveled around 8" to the back of the wet pack. I know I was rather long winded but I do think it shows that while maybe not giving you FMJ penetration, a clogged hollow point will still give you greater penetration than a fully expanded JHP.

Thanks for tanking the time to reply. Its been a good discussion.

Originally Posted by CanyonMan
God bless ya'
Please stay safe out there
God Bless you too sir, stay safe
Ben

CanyonMan
01-23-2010, 18:04
I know I was rather long winded but I do think it shows that while maybe not giving you FMJ penetration, a clogged hollow point will still give you greater penetration than a fully expanded JHP.
Thanks for tanking the time to reply. Its been a good discussion.


Yep, that is what I wanted to say but did not thnk about it till later....



We're hangin around on 'some' things pretty much on the same page. The ones we're not... So what. We continue on and we'll learn more as we go out and just do it.

I'm going to catch a few ZZZZZ's, and then get up and take care of some more work tonight before the storm comes....


You take care
Good shooting..



CanyonMan

PersonOfInterest
01-23-2010, 23:33
I like em alot and yes they are very underated, as Canyonman and the other guys have stated its more about marketing then anything else, they do penetrate extremly well (which i prefer anyway) but by loading them right you get great expansion its very rare for the jacket to shed.

Ive shot literally hundreds of animals with the XTP mostly ive used the 124gn out of the 9mm loaded at 1250fps,1300fps and 1350fps - at each of those speeds it works extremly well.
Ive used it in the 357magnum at 1200fps all the way upto 1800fps in the 125gn variant and once again it just works great - great penetration, great expansion.

Now people telling you people dont equal animals well ill tell you this - most of the game i shoot is closer to human size than your used to in the US, big Roo's, wild goats, wild dogs and wild pigs arent quite like deer or elk, most of the large numbers of goats and roo's i shoot weigh in at the lowest being 130lb all the way upto 190lb - even in the 9mm at around 1300fps most of the time they die then and there.

Ive had them occasionally over penetrate but when they do at that speed the hole you look into is - well messy not to mention big.
Id have no opposition to picking up my glock 17 loaded with those rounds to defened myself anymore so than you guys with your fancy HST, blah blah gello rounds - no offense intended there just saying - they are underated and a gret choice.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/xtpsjpg.jpg

CanyonMan
01-24-2010, 07:38
I like em alot and yes they are very underated, as Canyonman and the other guys have stated its more about marketing then anything else, they do penetrate extremly well (which i prefer anyway) but by loading them right you get great expansion its very rare for the jacket to shed.

Ive shot literally hundreds of animals with the XTP mostly ive used the 124gn out of the 9mm loaded at 1250fps,1300fps and 1350fps - at each of those speeds it works extremly well.
Ive used it in the 357magnum at 1200fps all the way upto 1800fps in the 125gn variant and once again it just works great - great penetration, great expansion.

Now people telling you people dont equal animals well ill tell you this - most of the game i shoot is closer to human size than your used to in the US, big Roo's, wild goats, wild dogs and wild pigs arent quite like deer or elk, most of the large numbers of goats and roo's i shoot weigh in at the lowest being 130lb all the way upto 190lb - even in the 9mm at around 1300fps most of the time they die then and there.

Ive had them occasionally over penetrate but when they do at that speed the hole you look into is - well messy not to mention big.
Id have no opposition to picking up my glock 17 loaded with those rounds to defened myself anymore so than you guys with your fancy HST, blah blah gello rounds - no offense intended there just saying - they are underated and a gret choice.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/xtpsjpg.jpg



Agreed all around. And why don't you just sent me those XTP's in the pic. You probably won't shoot them al any way right ? ha. Right!
Man I have got to make the Quiglet trip to the out back for some Roo's

When I can. I am going to call ya man...


Stay safe.


CanyonMan

cmspeedy
01-24-2010, 10:06
Just ordered 1000 xtp's because of this thread. I foresee an XTP shortage.

glocksterr
01-24-2010, 10:57
i always wanted to ask about the roo's but.....


:)

kgpcr
01-24-2010, 11:02
I have had nothign but good results with the XTP in my .357 and .40. I will keep using them for carry and hunting.

cmspeedy
01-24-2010, 11:09
Ever try shooting a Roo on the move? That seems like it would be tons of fun, especially with buckshot - like giant rabbit hunting.

glocksterr
01-24-2010, 11:17
hee,hee,

will buckshot even stop a roo???

same some of the XTP's for me hee, hee!

cmspeedy
01-24-2010, 11:31
Will buckshot stop a Roo?:rofl:

Have you ever gone into the field with some good buck? For hunting I now use Federal flite control 9 pellet 00 full power and it is truly devastating. No deer showed themselves while I had the shotgun this year, but a ~150lb pig, probably 5 or so Nutria, and a HUGE beaver did - Easy one shot stops all. (the beaver was pregnant and baby beavers were hanging from her abdomen - I have pics, but they would probably ban me if I posted them - My wife was wondering what was wrong with me when I showed her the pics..LOL)

481
01-24-2010, 11:34
I like em alot and yes they are very underated, as Canyonman and the other guys have stated its more about marketing then anything else, they do penetrate extremly well (which i prefer anyway) but by loading them right you get great expansion its very rare for the jacket to shed.

Ive shot literally hundreds of animals with the XTP mostly ive used the 124gn out of the 9mm loaded at 1250fps,1300fps and 1350fps - at each of those speeds it works extremly well.
Ive used it in the 357magnum at 1200fps all the way upto 1800fps in the 125gn variant and once again it just works great - great penetration, great expansion.

Now people telling you people dont equal animals well ill tell you this - most of the game i shoot is closer to human size than your used to in the US, big Roo's, wild goats, wild dogs and wild pigs arent quite like deer or elk, most of the large numbers of goats and roo's i shoot weigh in at the lowest being 130lb all the way upto 190lb - even in the 9mm at around 1300fps most of the time they die then and there.

Ive had them occasionally over penetrate but when they do at that speed the hole you look into is - well messy not to mention big.
Id have no opposition to picking up my glock 17 loaded with those rounds to defened myself anymore so than you guys with your fancy HST, blah blah gello rounds - no offense intended there just saying - they are underated and a gret choice.

Yours is an interesting perspective to be sure and not one that I've been exposed to. While I've shot several whitetail deer with the 9mm 147 XTP as fired from either a Glock 17 or 17L and never lost one thanks to being very selective about the shots I take, I think that having a larger variety of species much as you have in Australia would be an informative and very enjoyable option to have. Yep, I am envious. :supergrin:

cmspeedy
01-24-2010, 11:56
481 - if you need to kill something just drive down to LA and help us with our Nutria problem. You get to help the environment and feed the hungry - all by discharging a firearm!!! - It's green.

RWBlue
01-24-2010, 12:19
481 - if you need to kill something just drive down to LA and help us with our Nutria problem. You get to help the environment and feed the hungry - all by discharging a firearm!!! - It's green.

Don't make an offer like that unless you have someplace for me to setup a tent and lots of things to kill.
:wavey:

cmspeedy
01-24-2010, 12:26
I really did ROFL

:rofl::rofl:

In all honesty - my state has some of the absolute largest and most varied legally huntable wildlife management areas in the country. Camping grounds are well maintained and WE HAVE A NUTRIA PROBLEM!!!! We also have lots of poor people that live near the WMA's and most love nutria, coon or whatever else you bring them. (I can fill you in on the legalities if interested)

Only one problem - ON THE WMA's THE DAILY BAG LIMIT ON NUTRIA IS 5!! Which I feel is stupid because they are an introduced species and are destroying our wetlands - We should be allowed to KILL THEM ALL.......Now on private land - NUTRIA MASSACRE!!!!!!!!!!

481
01-24-2010, 12:28
481 - if you need to kill something just drive down to LA and help us with our Nutria problem. You get to help the environment and feed the hungry - all by discharging a firearm!!! - It's green.

There are nutria in south central LA? :supergrin:

cmspeedy
01-24-2010, 12:32
you have to hold the gun sideways to kill them there.

481
01-24-2010, 12:46
you have to hold the gun sideways to kill them there.

:animlol:

uz2bUSMC
01-24-2010, 13:31
you have to hold the gun sideways to kill them there.

That's funny $$t right there. I don't even kno wht the threads 'bout, but that's funny!

PersonOfInterest
01-25-2010, 03:45
Agreed all around. And why don't you just sent me those XTP's in the pic. You probably won't shoot them al any way right ? ha. Right!
Man I have got to make the Quiglet trip to the out back for some Roo's

When I can. I am going to call ya man...


Stay safe.


CanyonMan
Hey cheif welcome anytime!
but my XTP's are mine :supergrin:
You should look into a trip to the top end, some great hunting up there! the wild pigs get to be huge biggest i saw once needed to be stretched between 2 hooks just to hold it.

Some of the big wild bulls up there too can be a pretty good hunt, as for Roo's well technically there actually protected - stupid thing is theres 40million of them and they do reek havock on farms - every single famer ive met has no opposition to nailing everyone they see - so im sure something could be worked, my dad took some American friends out shooting once actually 3 generations came along :) the father came out on holidays while the son was on a 2 year job placement with his family.

Ive known people whove brought there own rifles for hunts which is legal to do, saw a write up on safari's where they shoot Camels! which in some places are becoming a big problem - they say theres more here now than in the middle east, they seem to agree with the climate.

PersonOfInterest
01-25-2010, 03:59
As for buckshot on Roo's - hell yes it works!! 00's (or SG's as most people know them here) work exceptionally well, we even make our own at the Olin Factory in Australia - i wish i had some pics of them (next time im at the familys place i will) only problem here is - its very hard to legally own pump shotguns or semi auto shotguns - you need a special permit.

However double barrels and lever action shotties arent so hard to own, i do remember back in the day using Pumps with the locally made 00's and good lord were they messy and effective, i shot 50 or so of them on the move using my old 1300 stainless steel winchester mariner and mossberg 590 before the laws changed.

Ive shot them and wild goats/wild pigs/ wild dogs on the move with my glocks too, i remember years ago taking out 1 mob of 10 using 1 mag from the glock 19 i used to own - whole thing was over in about 20 seconds.
On the farm ive been shooting on the last few years the numbers of wild animals are just amazing - in 1 day i shot dead about 40 wild goats with the 357sig and on the way home id see a mob of 20 or so just run past and think god this is getting boring i wont waste anymore rounds.

So here having stalk and make careful shots isnt as big a deal - and by no
means do i disrepect that but here things are different - plague proportions are the norm.

481 - well thanks dont be too envious - our gun laws do suck pretty bad!

Iceman cHucK
01-25-2010, 08:54
PersonOf Interest,
Good on ya mate! I lived in Perth, WA back in 79-80, did a lot of fishing and scuba diving but no hunting. Was told not to even try to import any firearms because it was such a hassle. Worked for Alcoa of Australia on a two year temp visa. Our farms manager invited me to do some ROO shooting but just could not get it organized. I did get to have some of his ROO tail STEW though, pretty good tucker! Stuff your gun laws! Loved your country then and still do now;it's my favorite other country! Got to visit most cities, Sidney, Melbourne, Adelaide, and Brisbon's gold coast Surfer's Paradise. Wish I had had the time to explore the NT. Where you located?
Chuck the Yank

cmspeedy
01-25-2010, 10:29
As for buckshot on Roo's - hell yes it works!! 00's (or SG's as most people know them here) work exceptionally well, we even make our own at the Olin Factory in Australia - i wish i had some pics of them (next time im at the familys place i will) only problem here is - its very hard to legally own pump shotguns or semi auto shotguns - you need a special permit.

However double barrels and lever action shotties arent so hard to own, i do remember back in the day using Pumps with the locally made 00's and good lord were they messy and effective, i shot 50 or so of them on the move using my old 1300 stainless steel winchester mariner and mossberg 590 before the laws changed.

Ive shot them and wild goats/wild pigs/ wild dogs on the move with my glocks too, i remember years ago taking out 1 mob of 10 using 1 mag from the glock 19 i used to own - whole thing was over in about 20 seconds.
On the farm ive been shooting on the last few years the numbers of wild animals are just amazing - in 1 day i shot dead about 40 wild goats with the 357sig and on the way home id see a mob of 20 or so just run past and think god this is getting boring i wont waste anymore rounds.

So here having stalk and make careful shots isnt as big a deal - and by no
means do i disrepect that but here things are different - plague proportions are the norm.

481 - well thanks dont be too envious - our gun laws do suck pretty bad!

After reading this they probably had to change the gun laws in Australia to prevent all of the Glocktalk members from migrating there to help you with your "plague problems". LOL

PersonOfInterest
01-25-2010, 21:38
PersonOf Interest,
Good on ya mate! I lived in Perth, WA back in 79-80, did a lot of fishing and scuba diving but no hunting. Was told not to even try to import any firearms because it was such a hassle. Worked for Alcoa of Australia on a two year temp visa. Our farms manager invited me to do some ROO shooting but just could not get it organized. I did get to have some of his ROO tail STEW though, pretty good tucker! Stuff your gun laws! Loved your country then and still do now;it's my favorite other country! Got to visit most cities, Sidney, Melbourne, Adelaide, and Brisbon's gold coast Surfer's Paradise. Wish I had had the time to explore the NT. Where you located?
Chuck the Yank

Hey chuck :) glad you had a good time! yeah Perth is a great place from what ive heard - real frontier country in WA but ive never had the chance to go over there, well here in Aus we are used to paper work for guns so importing one like that yeah it would be a hassle but worth it in some respects, i know guys who shoot comps in other countries so they are used to it.
I live in Sydney but i grew up in Northern NSW and yes - i love QLD and Brisbane/gold coast too - eye candy is second to none :supergrin:
Yep to be honest i have no quarms about using grey areas of the laws here - technically im not even supposed to use my handguns to shoot vermin but i do and will always victimless crime after all.
NT is a great place too - best to keep away in summer the heat and humidity ive heard is a killer.
Take care.

PersonOfInterest
01-25-2010, 21:41
After reading this they probably had to change the gun laws in Australia to prevent all of the Glocktalk members from migrating there to help you with your "plague problems". LOL
Ha! well i doubt if all of us went out there each day and shot what i shoot a few times a year - itd still not even put a dent in the populations! they just breed and breed and then - breed some more.